Lions vs Tiramorans: the petty war of the South!

[Gabanus family]

True, the question is, if you can do anything about it at all. Duke scheming against their realms wouldn't start bragging about it. Kings trying to plot their way into a war won't go screaming about it, or  it will most likely fail. At the same time that you can't blame Fleugs, Fleugs can't really put this much blame on the others.

[Fleugs]

As far as my ingame character goes, he knows nearly nothing. So far all my messages to other rulers have been done from new principles. I suppose it was made easier for me to approach EC because I simply didn't know what was going on. I am also happy that this didn't become a 2v2 or whatever. Perdan (and Vix) is a small realm. In any other war Perdan would not be the main supplier of the force. It would be harder to make our own war, to chose where we fight. Considering that, I am happy it's only Perdan vs Vix. This way both realms are equally matched and not dependent on some bigger realm.

Should I have crossed any plans, I'd apologize. But that wouldn't be the sincerest apology. After all, if realms were gambling on a conflict between Vix and Perdan (and yes, it was a gamble, looking at how it turned out now), that should raise more questions as to how such realms approach the concept of creating war. I guess, though, when I am the ruler of a realm I simply do not try to rely on other realms to create conflict. I take my own realm and put it up front, and that could end bad or incredibly good. But it's a gamble I'll take every single time.

[De-Legro]

As far as my ingame character goes, he knows nearly nothing. So far all my messages to other rulers have been done from new principles. I suppose it was made easier for me to approach EC because I simply didn't know what was going on. I am also happy that this didn't become a 2v2 or whatever. Perdan (and Vix) is a small realm. In any other war Perdan would not be the main supplier of the force. It would be harder to make our own war, to chose where we fight. Considering that, I am happy it's only Perdan vs Vix. This way both realms are equally matched and not dependent on some bigger realm.

Should I have crossed any plans, I'd apologize. But that wouldn't be the sincerest apology. After all, if realms were gambling on a conflict between Vix and Perdan (and yes, it was a gamble, looking at how it turned out now), that should raise more questions as to how such realms approach the concept of creating war. I guess, though, when I am the ruler of a realm I simply do not try to rely on other realms to create conflict. I take my own realm and put it up front, and that could end bad or incredibly good. But it's a gamble I'll take every single time.

The plans were "months" in the making. What proof does anyone have that they would not have taken months more before the realms felt suitably insulated against risk to actually do something, assuming they ever reached that point. A war that is happening is worth two that "are going to happen, honest"

[Indirik]

Should I have crossed any plans, I'd apologize.

I have no problem with anyone seeking out wars, or anyone's IC plans screwing up my own IC plans. (Though I admit that I will grumble and bitch about it :p )

My gripe is the assertion that everyone is trying to shoehorn in on your war because they can't think of any other way to get involved in one. The Perdan/Vix Tiramora conflict, and the situation surrounding Vix's formation is something that affects several other realms. There are perfectly valid reasons other realms might want to get involved in it, in one way or another. (And not just from the lame "we support our ally!") If you'd bothered to talk to your neighbor when you got the throne, you'd know all about it.

But that wouldn't be the sincerest apology.

No one is asking for an apology.

After all, if realms were gambling on a conflict between Vix and Perdan (and yes, it was a gamble, looking at how it turned out now),

Yeah, it is a gamble. Everything is a gamble. Your war is a gamble. It could easily start the next continent-wide war that you're hoping to have prevented with your war games. (Again, talking to your neighbors and scoping out the political landscape would have helped here.)

that should raise more questions as to how such realms approach the concept of creating war.

Definitely a fair point. Starting wars, and then ending them, is definitely something that has always been very difficult. It is always incredibly difficult for a realm to start a war without 90% of the other realms on the island using that as an opportunity to declare you an "aggressive, land-grabbing, expansionist menace", and then piling on against you. Just like it's nearly impossible to go to war, grab a region or two, and then end the war. As soon as you start one, everyone wants to call in their allies to punish you, and use it as an excuse to grab three or four regions from you.

I don't know that staged "war games" are quite the answer to this problem, but I suppose it's worth a shot.

[Indirik]

It does highlight a common problem, though. This is hardly the first time someone has launched one plan assuming it was the only one going on, because he had no way of knowing about any others.

Yeah, you're right. Plans get stomped and derailed all the time. Don't worry, though, we're adapting. :)

Not sure what the best way to deal with the problem is, but you can hardly blame Fleugs for not knowing that another war was being planned if all the planning was happening in channels his character had no access to.

Not knowing? No. But for a character new to the island, and brand new to the throne, to launch the plan without even sending a letter of introduction to the neighbor that they had been in the middle of signing an alliance with? No one in Perdan bothered to see what was going on with that alliance they were negotiating with Eponllyn? You know, the alliance that was supposed to protect them from being the subject of a gang-bang once they started that war with Vix Tiramora? That's not "We don't know what's happening", it's "Not only do we not know what's going on, we don't want to know, and we will do everything in our power to avoid finding out".

And no, De-Legro, this wasn't a private plan between only two characters. It was a public discussion at least in Eponllyn. And unless Fiona in Perdan was deliberately not sharing it with Perdan, they knew it, too. And Caligus sure knew it was going to happen, as did everyone in Vix Tiramora (since they seceded from Caligus.) As did Sirion, Nivemus (At least their ruler), and Fallangard. In fact, Sirion marched their entire army down to Castle Ubent to force the secession, and thus guarantee the circumstances for the war. The coming war was one of the biggest "open secrets" I've ever seen in the game. In fact, the public explosion between Fiona and Meivmayr on the ruler's channel already promised it was going to happen as soon as Sirion's two-week grace period expired.

How anyone can seriously claim they didn't know the war was going to happen is beyond me.

Now, it is quite possible that Fleugs knew all about this, and decided that he just wanted to do something different. That's fine. But claiming that this was some secret plan between only a very few characters? No way.

[Chamberlain]

+1

[Fleugs]

I may have been aware of it on some level, but this is, for example, the first time I hear Sirion's army marched south. Ironically I maintain some contact with Sirion's general, so I suppose I should've known (maybe she said it and I forgot). Oh, and it's true that I didn't address Eponnlyn. Well, I did. To be fair I mistook Vita as Eppy's ruler (that shows how much I know/care, right?) and talked with him. I think I may have addressed you. I had the intention, at least, but I suppose other things occupy me now.

It's true that I was aware of the conflict between Perdan and Vix branching out into a larger war. It's also very true that I am intentionally trying to avoid that. Don't ask me which realm would be on which side. I really have no idea, except for believing Eponnlyn would probably ally with us against Sirion, Nivemus, Vix and Caligus. Not sure about the last realm. It should be stressed that Fiona, in her latter days, barely said anything. Perdan was a desolate place. And even if Caligus does not take any side in the conflict, I would still pass for a war on that scale. Perhaps my years of BM have made me skeptical, but that setup sounds like some realm is going to be erased. I suppose the prospect of both Vix and Perdan risking total destruction is what sort-of brought us together.

So yes, on a level I knew this war could be way bigger, and yes I'm intentionally trying to avoid that. And yes, I did not send you a letter (but neither did you send me one  ;) ). If you wish to understand my reasoning, consider every single realm a potential enemy. It's best not to buddy up too much with potential enemies. That totally takes away your chance for a war!

[Chamberlain]

I think the difficult part is that there was stratification of the alliances following the North South war, the change in Eponllyn's stance was an opportunity to split the alliances up and devolve the continent into what would very likely be a larger more disparate set of struggles. 

I get why you wouldn't want Perdan or the new realm to be caught in the thin edge of the wedge, which may or may not have happened, and nobody will criticise you for doing what is right for your realm.  Personally speaking I find the concept of war games a bit bland, that is what SI is for, when you buy into that you check into that type of game/fun.  For me on EI, Bel or Dw there is supposed to be some decent intrigue leading into a war, so that there is something you can have some passion to fight for, that is what is supposed to add depth to the game.

What you wanted was to shake up the continent and its bonds, I get that. Things are pretty entrenched on EI and the coming war was looking like a place where the entrenchment may change things a bit.  We'll just have to see what comes next and how we can craft things a little differently.

[De-Legro]

I think the difficult part is that there was stratification of the alliances following the North South war, the change in Eponllyn's stance was an opportunity to split the alliances up and devolve the continent into what would very likely be a larger more disparate set of struggles. 

I get why you wouldn't want Perdan or the new realm to be caught in the thin edge of the wedge, which may or may not have happened, and nobody will criticise you for doing what is right for your realm.  Personally speaking I find the concept of war games a bit bland, that is what SI is for, when you buy into that you check into that type of game/fun.  For me on EI, Bel or Dw there is supposed to be some decent intrigue leading into a war, so that there is something you can have some passion to fight for, that is what is supposed to add depth to the game.

What you wanted was to shake up the continent and its bonds, I get that. Things are pretty entrenched on EI and the coming war was looking like a place where the entrenchment may change things a bit.  We'll just have to see what comes next and how we can craft things a little differently.

Um, SI is unrestrained total war were the goal is destruction of your opponents. That could not be FURTHER from highly organised War Games that are stifled with rules and win conditions that aim to restrict the war.

[Fleugs]

Personally speaking I find the concept of war games a bit bland, that is what SI is for, when you buy into that you check into that type of game/fun.  For me on EI, Bel or Dw there is supposed to be some decent intrigue leading into a war, so that there is something you can have some passion to fight for, that is what is supposed to add depth to the game.

There's more to it than would appear on the surface, but spoiling intrigue... well... then it stops being intrigue.

[Ketchum]

Oh, so that how we can call them: Tiramorans. Not Tiramisu cake? :P

About limited war, sound like fun way. Lose a couple regions every now and then, without losing entire realm, or entire culture that goes along with it.

On another note, look like everyone need find their own wars and create their own. Oh well, time to look to the south is over then :-\

[Indirik]

I may have been aware of it on some level, but this is, for example, the first time I hear Sirion's army marched south.

Huh. Caligus was pretty upset, I hear, that Sirion made the march.

It's true that I was aware of the conflict between Perdan and Vix branching out into a larger war. It's also very true that I am intentionally trying to avoid that.

That's understandable, not wanting to be the center point in an island-wide war. Although it was kinda fun being on the front lines between Sirion/Perdan in the last war.

It should be stressed that Fiona, in her latter days, barely said anything. Perdan was a desolate place.

That's too bad. Perdan was always a hit-and-miss realm, sometimes really active and sometimes not. Though I suppose most realms are like that.

[Gabanus family]

Fleugs, I'm quite curious to learn why you would think Sirion would ally with Nivemus (Caligus) and Vix against Perdan and Eponllyn. The fact that you didn't know of Sirion's march is rather surprising to me tbh. We upset Caligus quite a bit and there was some further turmoil as well. Due to the north/south war and the victory of the north, politics have become slightly strained. However believe it or not, there are people actually working to fix that situation again. But there are opportunities for war if you ask me, even without vix and Perdan. They will just take slightly longer to be made possible I fear.

[De-Legro]

Fleugs, I'm quite curious to learn why you would think Sirion would ally with Nivemus (Caligus) and Vix against Perdan and Eponllyn. The fact that you didn't know of Sirion's march is rather surprising to me tbh. We upset Caligus quite a bit and there was some further turmoil as well. Due to the north/south war and the victory of the north, politics have become slightly strained. However believe it or not, there are people actually working to fix that situation again. But there are opportunities for war if you ask me, even without vix and Perdan. They will just take slightly longer to be made possible I fear.

Simple, past actions of the realm.

[Gabanus family]

Simple, past actions of the realm.

I see, because I would have sooner expected the opposite to happen if Sirion would get involved in the war in the first place.