the conflict looming

[Indirik]

What about Hetland? The Daimons destroyed Hetland but I recall Hetland's neighbors were either going to attack or did attack them.

The threats never materialized.

Yes they did. Bara'Khur invaded at least one Hetland region. If they didn't get more, it's because they were too slow, not because they had no intention of doing so.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

We congratulated BK for sieging Creasur. They did, for real. Not very successfully, but they did.

[Chenier]

The threats never materialized.
Yes they did. Bara'Khur invaded at least one Hetland region. If they didn't get more, it's because they were too slow, not because they had no intention of doing so.

They TOed a region that the daimons had just turned rogue, leading many to think they TOed it directly off of Hetland.

We congratulated BK for sieging Creasur. They did, for real. Not very successfully, but they did.

It was either such an insignificant battle that I got no report of it, or was done when Hetland was basically dead anyways.

The original plan was to have BK, Enweil, and Fronen rally and attack it together, because they wouldn't accept our peace offer (we were just asking that they stop empowering the Servants, not even that they destroy the temple). We cancelled the attack because the whole thing became moot when the Servants packed.

BK always was a little overeager, but the only time I recall it sending forces in Creasur was when they thought Hetland to already be dead (as they were doomed) to do a takeover, which failed I believe. They spoke of attacking it a few times before that, but these had not materialized.

I always denied any of our realms as having attacked Hetland, it's not a recent claim. I would have thought that if it weren't accurate, then people would have long ago shared me a battle report showing otherwise. I know for a fact that Enweil never did attack, though, despite those that claim it did.

[Indirik]

I always denied any of our realms as having attacked Hetland, it's not a recent claim. I would have thought that if it weren't accurate, then people would have long ago shared me a battle report showing otherwise. I know for a fact that Enweil never did attack, though, despite those that claim it did.

Old claim != accurate claim.

[Chenier]

Old claim != accurate claim.

With the amount of people that'd love nothing more than to discredit me and Enweil, one would assume so...

[Lorgan]

Well, you can say what you want, but my character's actions as elder priest of Qyrvaggism meant the destruction of thousands of monsters. You may say it was not his doing but the fact remains that without Riombaran blood and without a Riombaran to channel the Power, you would've had to face an extra 100k CS of monsters. We could not seek them out far away from Grehk as we did not have daimons to protect us under their wings, but more importantly we did not *want* daimons, or monsters for that matter, to protect us.
For that reason we did not hunt them actively but made them regret coming near us every time. You can say it's a passive approach but it was a choice, to not ally with the monsters, the daimons or the undead and I think it was the right one. The monsters indeed grew stronger because of their alliance with MR, but so did the daimons because of your alliance. We were not going to support one of the armies that laid waste to so much of the continent, in stead, we'd kill them without discrimination if they got close enough.

The thing is though, there is honour in fighting, whether you die or not. Of course there are different things to fight for. One can fight purely for survival of one's own realm or one can spit in the face of the invaders and fight them on principle, or both. I can't say what Hetland did but one thing is certain: they fought the daimons and did not surrender to them.

About attacking MR... well... things were nicely balanced I'd say. MR and the monsters vs Enweil and the daimons. If we were to attack MR the daimons would eventually break through, end that southern conflict and turn their attention to the rest of the continent. I doubt things would've been much better. We didn't attack MR but their allies suffered considerable losses at our hands. It's one of those old invasion-principles forgotten by many: kill invaders, not humans.

And finally, I can't remember which peace was signed first, I only know the monsters spawned in Enweil and then marched on Enweil's enemies.

[Anaris]

I would not count the kills of the Light as Riombaran kills at all. Because the Light considered the realm sitting on its ass to be more "pure" than the realm fighting tooth and nail the monsters.

Are you really still that thick?

It's about purity. Not about strength.

The Light would have praised and lauded a realm that allowed themselves to be destroyed rather than ally with any of the invaders.

They considered anyone who joined with the invaders to be part of the problem.

Plus, there's the whole "unwilling human sacrifice" bit that parts of Enweil were into.

[Chenier]

Are you really still that thick?

It's about purity. Not about strength.

The Light would have praised and lauded a realm that allowed themselves to be destroyed rather than ally with any of the invaders.

Sint, of all realms, was declared "pure".

Enough said.

[Velax]

A sacrifice is only honourable when its planned. If you are convinced you are survive and end up dying, then there's little honour in that, as it was never your intention to risk your life for others.

Really? So if a soldier dies in real life, he only has honour if he knew he was going to die? If he thought he'd survive the war and return home to his family, but dies instead, he has no honour? Wow.

[Chenier]

Really? So if a soldier dies in real life, he only has honour if he knew he was going to die? If he thought he'd survive the war and return home to his family, but dies instead, he has no honour? Wow.

Dying in battle doesn't automatically make one honorable. There are a lot of scumbags serving the forces, being at the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't turn them into angels.

And my message involved the commitment to risk. A better example would be: those that enlisted to fight the nazis were more honorable than those who were conscripted into doing it.

That being said, there are a wide array of circumstances that can influence how "honorable" an act is or isn't. Honor is determined by the intent and the values guiding an act. If two people do the exact same act, but one does it for the greater good while the other does it because he underestimated the risks and saw potential gains and self-gratification, then the former's act was more honorable than the latter's.

[Velax]

Well, you're backtracking now, because that's not what you said. You said dying is only honorable if you planned to sacrifice yourself, and that you can't both plan to survive and risk your life for others. I think perhaps someone made a gross exaggeration in their attempt to make a point.

[Nosferatus]

So the whole continent is going to bash Fronen?
Enweil will surely step in and be stoped by a declaration of war from Riombara leaving Melhed to decide if this will be a long or a short war....
some interesting options etc.

Glad something is finally happening.

[Chenier]

Well, you're backtracking now, because that's not what you said. You said dying is only honorable if you planned to sacrifice yourself, and that you can't both plan to survive and risk your life for others. I think perhaps someone made a gross exaggeration in their attempt to make a point.

Not really, but adding precisions. One wishing to go home is not the same as one being convinced that he'll survive and go home. If someone joins the army to get all the perks, convinced he'll never actually have to fight like the others, and then ends up being forced to fight for whatever reason and dies, then that's not the same as the others who joined and fought knowing they might die. This person was just out for self-gain, he did not want to risk himself. Just as Sint, thinking they could get all the perks of declaring war on the invaders without ever actually getting hurt themselves.

And there is no inherent honor in going to fight in stupid wars. There is no inherent honor in being a soldier. You are being thickheaded yourselves if you think that all you need to do is sign up in the army to suddenly become a good person. There are good and bad people in the army, going there for good and bad reasons, to fight good and bad wars.

I personally have much greater respect for firefighters than soldiers.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

In some moral systems, intent is as important as action, even if the actions never reflect on the intent. (ie A person has the intent to harm people but never materializes this intent; conversely, a person has the intent of helping people but only acts to harm them. Obj/subj of events not considered, let's just be simple and say that in this case, for the sake of argument, there is no in-between and hurt/harm are two clearly identifiable extremes)

It's something we do all the time too. We consider whether something was premeditated and whether there was malicious intent in crimes. We gauge potential business associates for other motives possibly more self-interested in addition to simple mutual profit.

Anyway, the point is that the soldier who goes off to fight because he truly believes in defending the ideals of his country and whatnot is clearly different from the soldier who does it because he didn't get into college, who both are also different from the soldier who just wanted to fire a gun. (And let's just say that I've known enough people who enlisted to know that there are more than two of each aforementioned example that I personally have known.)

[Vellos]

but my character's actions as elder priest of Qyrvaggism meant the destruction of thousands of monsters.

I very much resent the unitary nature of your claim. It was my character, Hireshmont, who first contacted the Light concerning Qyrvaggism, informed them of our united position against the Invaders, and directed to the temple in Grehk. And Hireshmont was also one of the first to be consumed at the temple of light in Grehk. Whatever you may have thought of him, his last days in MR were spent guaranteeing the survival of Riombara and the defeat of the Invaders as he directed every effort towards getting the Light established in Grehk. Now, naturally, many other players, especially in Qyrvaggism, contributed quite meaningfully. But don't hog all the credit.