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What is and what should be SMA?

Started by Bedwyr, June 07, 2011, 10:03:57 PM

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Bedwyr

There was a consensus that this discussion needed to happen, so here's a topic.

My view, directly quoting from the other discussion, is as follows:

To me, the point of SMA is to make people really think like nobles, within a context of the warring states of Middle Ages Europe.  Religion should be extremely important, in many cases more important than realm affiliation.  Our characters should not be socialists, should not be egalitarian, and should jealously guard their privileges.  They should not be tolerant of beliefs that contradict their own, and should push their own faith.  And, of course, they should not be buddy-buddy with commoners.

But over all this, I think that realities of the Battlemaster world must triumph over SMA guidelines whenever there is a conflict.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!"

^ban^

I think a good place to start is by analyzing the religious atmosphere of the time, and not necessarily the religions themselves. If I get any of this wrong, please correct me:


  • Religions were all-prevalent at every level of both society and government
  • There were crusades.
  • Religions were, for the most part, organized. I think the only significant exception to this were the germanic traditions (Odin, etc).
  • Religions of Europe recognized gods.. No exceptions.
  • Gods were often recognized as power-beings. That is, they were worshiped because if you didn't, they would strike you with lightning and curse your family for seven generations. (Greek/Germanic)
  • One did not merely "change religions". They told you what was and was not proper to do, and anything outside that scope was heretical and blasphemous.
  • To that end, what a religion said was "right" and "wrong" was usually law. (Judaism/Greek/Christianity)
  • The teachings of the "church" and the teachings of the "prophets" are not necessarily the same. (Christianity, others?)
Born in Day they knew the Light; Rulers, prophets, servants, and warriors.
Life in Night that they walk; Gods, heretics, thieves, and murderers.
The Stefanovics live.

Nathan

#2
EDIT: In reference to ^ban^'s post below, I'm aiming the first & second paragraphs at Bedwyr, the rest is to all.

I'm not quite convinced on religion. Whilst I admit that what you said should be what a noble thinks, you have to think about players. Playing religion how it's supposed to be simply isn't fun to a lot of players, trying to force it down their throats with "you're a noble, nobles follow religions".

I'll certainly agree on not being socialists, however only to the extent of "don't hug commoners". If a noble wants to invest in the lower classes, make sure (s)he only does it for those with a bit of money - for example: build schools for the children of wealthy merchants, open a library for those who can 'donate' gold to the cause.

Thinking about it, what might be best is making a list of what you can't do instead of what you can do. Otherwise, we risk prescribing what many nobles on the continent acts like. In which case, a list like:


  • Don't like commoners/peasantry.
  • Don't deny the existence of God.
  • Don't be lewd, that's for peasants.
  • Don't copy/paste letters, you can write.

Everything else is up to the player, which is what makes the game fun.

^ban^

Quote from: Nathan on June 07, 2011, 11:13:29 PM
I'm not quite convinced on religion. Whilst I admit that what you said should be what a noble thinks, you have to think about players. Playing religion how it's supposed to be simply isn't fun to a lot of players, trying to force it down their throats with "you're a noble, nobles follow religions".

It wasn't intended as a "you must act this way", but rather as a starting point for the discussion.

Edit: Unless you meant Bedwyr? Please quote who you're responding to for the sake of clarity.
Born in Day they knew the Light; Rulers, prophets, servants, and warriors.
Life in Night that they walk; Gods, heretics, thieves, and murderers.
The Stefanovics live.

Vaylon Kenadell

"Medieval" by definition refers to the Middle Ages: "The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from a.d. 476 to 1453." [source] We can squabble over just how wide a swath, geographically, this refers to, but generally speaking this does not include East Asia, South and Central Africa, Australia, or the Americas.

As I said in the other thread, during the Middle Ages (the 5th century to 15th century), Europe was in the process of being Christianized; so-called pagan beliefs still existed in many places at various points throughout the medieval period, though most of these had disappeared by the end of it. The most well-known of these would probably be Norse paganism. As has been said by others, Islam also posed a significant threat to the dominance of Christianity, and Judaism was also present in small but significant amounts. I personally have no problem whatsoever with these types of religions on Dwilight. Other religions and mystical systems making an appearance at this time were gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, Catharism, and alchemy, though some of these were secret and others were present only among the intellectual elite.

Furthermore, as I also said in the other thread, if SMA is going to be strictly enforced on Dwilight, I will expect those ill-thought-out and truly quite terrible region names to be changed. (Personally, I'd also like to see region names fixed to include apostrophes if they're supposed to have apostrophes.)

Finally, the last thing I have to say about Serious Medieval Atmosphere is this: most monarchs, knights, and nobles were not literate [source]. In fact, Frederick II of Sicily was notable because he could read and speak six different languages. So -- how serious do you want your medieval atmosphere?

De-Legro

Quote from: Vaylon Kenadell on June 07, 2011, 11:48:21 PM
"Medieval" by definition refers to the Middle Ages: "The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from a.d. 476 to 1453." [source] We can squabble over just how wide a swath, geographically, this refers to, but generally speaking this does not include East Asia, South and Central Africa, Australia, or the Americas.

As I said in the other thread, during the Middle Ages (the 5th century to 15th century), Europe was in the process of being Christianized; so-called pagan beliefs still existed in many places at various points throughout the medieval period, though most of these had disappeared by the end of it. The most well-known of these would probably be Norse paganism. As has been said by others, Islam also posed a significant threat to the dominance of Christianity, and Judaism was also present in small but significant amounts. I personally have no problem whatsoever with these types of religions on Dwilight. Other religions and mystical systems making an appearance at this time were gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, Catharism, and alchemy, though some of these were secret and others were present only among the intellectual elite.

Furthermore, as I also said in the other thread, if SMA is going to be strictly enforced on Dwilight, I will expect those ill-thought-out and truly quite terrible region names to be changed. (Personally, I'd also like to see region names fixed to include apostrophes if they're supposed to have apostrophes.)

Finally, the last thing I have to say about Serious Medieval Atmosphere is this: most monarchs, knights, and nobles were not literate [source]. In fact, Frederick II of Sicily was notable because he could read and speak six different languages. So -- how serious do you want your medieval atmosphere?

You miss the point of SMA I think. It is not suppose to truly replicate the exact circumstances of the medieval period. It is suppose to provide for a fantasy setting that has the feeling and atmosphere of the period. At is most crude the SMA was suppose to stop things like religions worshipping doughnuts. SMA to me has always been less about enforcing a particular setting, and more about encouraging and enforcing behaviours by our characters that would make sense in the context of being "noble"
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Indirik

Quote from: Vaylon Kenadell on June 07, 2011, 11:48:21 PM
"Medieval" by definition refers to the Middle Ages: "The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from a.d. 476 to 1453." [source] We can squabble over just how wide a swath, geographically, this refers to, but generally speaking this does not include East Asia, South and Central Africa, Australia, or the Americas.
I believe the date range Tom mentioned goes from 700 to 1300. The latter date may be off (1500? I can find it again tomorrow), but I do remember the earlier date specifically. So any justification for things that are reasonable should demonstrate to have been applicable during that specific time period. No justifications of "The Greeks did it this way in 300AD" or "the Romans had this in 300BC" unless it was still being done by 700 AD. It also means nothing that was invented in 1585, let alone 1985. And even if it occurred in 300 AD and then again in 1800 AD, if it didn't happen during 700-1300, then it's out. So no Roman war chariots.

And also important to keep in mind is that SMA is specifically geared toward European geographic locales. "The Chinese did it" is no more justification for something being valid than "the native Americans did it". A Japanese Shogun realm is no more valid in SMA than is an Alaskan Inuit tribe. The general flavor of things should be European. This doesn't mean "If it has Oriental influence it's forbidden". It means that the primary inspiration and flavor should be European. (I believe Tom's words were something like "A little bit of the Orient spices things up, but if everyone does it, then it ruins the atmosphere.")

This also does not mean that you have to find the exact situation/organization/concept as an RL analogue for what you want to do. Otherwise we'd pretty much all be playing Christian Crusaders. But the overall feel and atmosphere should be decidedly European medieval.

What you do needs to actually be physically plausible. No anime-style little girls wielding gigantic 300 pound broadswords while riding sparkly talking wolves into battle. (Like someone was trying to RP on FEI not too long ago...)

And, finally, it is also important to remember that SMA is not intended to empower you, or free you to do whatever you want so long as you're serious about doing it. It intentionally limits what you can do. True, these limits are broad, but they are still there. And it is up to us as players of this game to make sure that what we do fits in there. And also to call out anything that we feel does not fall within this framework that we've been given.

I don't know if any of that makes anything simpler, or more difficult.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

ó Broin

Quote from: Indirik on June 08, 2011, 03:18:58 AM
. No justifications of "The Greeks did it this way in 300AD" or "the Romans had this in 300BC" unless it was still being done by 700 AD. It also means nothing that was invented in 1585, let alone 1985. And even if it occurred in 300 AD and then again in 1800 AD, if it didn't happen during 700-1300, then it's out. So no Roman war chariots.

The problem here is that many things that people might saw were in ancient times and then resurrected in say the enlightenment period were still present through out the gap in between in Europe. They would however be far less prominent and so the over "feel" that most people who don't specifically study such history would have was they were somehow absent completely. Nearly all aspects of Greek and Roman culture can either be found to have a direct descendant somewhere in Europe, or to influencing to some degree an organisation or belief. This to me is the true current problem with SMA, where is the cut off. Do we just use background that was extremely common, or are the rarer and more esoteric aspects of European culture also acceptable.

Indirik

Quote from: De-Legro on June 08, 2011, 12:54:37 AMSMA to me has always been less about enforcing a particular setting, and more about encouraging and enforcing behaviours by our characters that would make sense in the context of being "noble"
It's both.  If you don't have the setting and framework inside which to be "noble", then you can't have SMA. It's not a medieval simulator, obviously, but there is a definite setting in which we should strive to play.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Indirik

Quote from: ó Broin on June 08, 2011, 03:30:08 AMThe problem here is that many things that people might saw were in ancient times and then resurrected in say the enlightenment period were still present through out the gap in between in Europe. They would however be far less prominent and so the over "feel" that most people who don't specifically study such history would have was they were somehow absent completely. Nearly all aspects of Greek and Roman culture can either be found to have a direct descendant somewhere in Europe, or to influencing to some degree an organisation or belief. This to me is the true current problem with SMA, where is the cut off. Do we just use background that was extremely common, or are the rarer and more esoteric aspects of European culture also acceptable.
I agree, that's a very difficult thing to determine. It will no doubt be a judgment call that someone, somewhere will have to make.

And this, to me, is one of the biggest problems: How will any of this be enforced? Player policing of the game simply does not work.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

ó Broin

Quote from: Indirik on June 08, 2011, 03:32:57 AM
It's both.  If you don't have the setting and framework inside which to be "noble", then you can't have SMA. It's not a medieval simulator, obviously, but there is a definite setting in which we should strive to play.

A framework of what it means to be noble doesn't necesarily require alot in terms of physical settings though. We could for example simply say something like a noble should be (not saying this is how it should be)

  • Respectful of the established Hierarchy
  • Devout in the pursuit of their religion
  • Superior to the Peasantry
  • Mindful of their honour and how other percieve it

and have a basic framework without a whole heap of references to real world movements or ideas. To me there seems to be two sides to the SMA debate,

  • those that think the RP and Behaviors are the alpha and reference to settings and frameworks function to support them
  • Those that think the Setting and Frameworks are Alpha, and that the behaviors and atmosphere can only come about as a function of them

Both parties seem to have the same basic outcome desires, but as they approach the start point differently, you end up with the resultant conflict.
[/list]

De-Legro

Quote from: Indirik on June 08, 2011, 03:38:17 AM
I agree, that's a very difficult thing to determine. It will no doubt be a judgment call that someone, somewhere will have to make.

And this, to me, is one of the biggest problems: How will any of this be enforced? Player policing of the game simply does not work.

Is that not why we have the Report an SMA Violation... button, to allow for the times when player policing doesn't work? I never got the idea that player policing was the be all end all of the SMA. It was to be used I guess primary in intra-realm issues, say 1 or 2 characters that are obviously flaunting the SMA. For more complex or larger things, well that is one reason we have a Dev team, titans and most importantly Tom, to wade into such arguments and simply make a ruling.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Indirik

Quote from: ó Broin on June 08, 2011, 03:42:16 AMA framework of what it means to be noble doesn't necesarily require alot in terms of physical settings though.
You are correct. It doesn't. But we are given a physical setting. And we all have to deal with that.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Indirik

Quote from: De-Legro on June 08, 2011, 03:46:04 AMFor more complex or larger things, well that is one reason we have a Dev team, titans and most importantly Tom, to wade into such arguments and simply make a ruling.
The dev team is not empowered to make any such rulings. That's why most of us are here arguing it back and forth, along with everyone else. The Titans have generally refused to make rulings any such SMA things. And based on the level of research it would take to investigate and make such determinations, especially in a completely anonymous, non=-interactive communications environment, I don't see them making any kind of decision on something this big. It will, by default, fall to Tom to make any kind of decision on issues like this.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

De-Legro

Quote from: Indirik on June 08, 2011, 03:54:03 AM
The dev team is not empowered to make any such rulings. That's why most of us are here arguing it back and forth, along with everyone else. The Titans have generally refused to make rulings any such SMA things. And based on the level of research it would take to investigate and make such determinations, especially in a completely anonymous, non=-interactive communications environment, I don't see them making any kind of decision on something this big. It will, by default, fall to Tom to make any kind of decision on issues like this.

I would presume that Tom would at least talk to members of the Dev team when making such rulings though.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.