Enable Adventurer options (some or all) for Nobles, at a price.

[Dallben]

Title: Enable Adventurer options (some or all) for Nobles, at a price.

Summary: A bit of backstory information:
- Nobles on Dwilight (and possibly elsewhere) are consistently treating Adventurers in the Royal Rangers guild as equals.  They deny it ICly and OOCly.  It is disputed as to just where the appropriate line is for the treatment of Adventurers by Nobles.  Not seeking to settle that here, really, but it is absolutely clear that the general treatment of Adventurers is not at all close to the Wiki article on the subject.  I think objectively the Adventurers are being treated as minor Nobles.  One Player remarked OOCly that they were effectively The Witcher, and it was suitable for them to go around insulting people, being disrespectful simply because they had sword skills and slew monsters.

I say the problem (improperly Nice treatment/tolerating/encouraging of Adventurers) is nearly mandatory by the game mechanics:
- Since Adventurers are the only ones capable of repairing/improving Items and hunting bands of monsters/undead to keep Hordes from rising up in regions (the "Services")
   - And Since Those Services are valuable to the Realms and individual Nobles.
   - The presence of valuable services and the inability to obtain those services Without Adventurers makes those Adventurers valuable to the Nobles, and therefore Adventurers have power OVER the Nobility.
   - Since Adventurers have power Over Nobility, Nobility has to pander to the addies - Bidding huge amounts of gold for items, liasing with them directly, complimenting/honouring them publicly, insulting other Nobles in front of the adventurers, offering protection from arrest and harassment despite any insults the adventurer has made to any noble. 

This is in direct conflict with the concept of Adventurers = Commoners = Filthy, useless peasants Nobles should avoid, order around, and treat generally like "not people".  Dwilight characters/players seem overly concerned with treating the Adventurers well so they do a better job for them, so much so that they're treating the Adventurers as equals. 

I personally think that it's backwards and a complete non sequitur in a serious medieval atmosphere for Nobles to care about commoners' feelings, or to tolerate the elevation of Adventurers.

My proposed solution is to remove the OOC Game mechanics restrictions that effectively provide heavy incentives for Nobles to pander to Adventurers (the only ones who can repair items, who chose whom to sell/give items to, etc.).  Like in game theory examples, there is no incentive to Nobles to treat adventurers as poorly as they should treat commoners if Any other noble is not also treating them like they're supposed to be treated.  Since we'll never get an agreement from the player base as to what SMA means for the treatment of commoners by Nobles - People will not mistreat adventurers, for various reasons - and it is way too exhausting to try to enforce proper RP, a game mechanics change is required to reduce the potential heavy penalties for pissing off adventurers, or indeed from pursuing natural justice against them.

References this suggestion, referencing an OOC message I sent in game.

Details:
Open options for Nobles to hunt monsters/undead, and meet with sages and wizards to repair items.
- Requirements:

• Must not have a unit.

- Penalties/Cost:
Not entirely sure, will need some help with this one.

• Lose 1 prestige per day in which you undertook an Adventurer action, if there are other Nobles or adventurers present in the region to witness the action(s).  1 Additional prestige lost per day if you are a Cavalier.  Heroes may do this without prestige loss at all.
• Hours: Meeting with a Sage/Wizard costs 1hr, hunting groups is based on size.

I say Heroes do it free because as noted in other Cavalier vs Hero threads, Cavs get more benefits than Heroes, and Heroes are already live/die by the Sword, so closer to the Adventurer anyway.

Benefits:
- enables more actions for landless / etc. Nobles to acquire gold, repair items, etc.
- reduces OOC dependency on Commoners to remove the incentive to ignore SMA/Wiki guidelines for treatment of adventurers by Nobles.

Possible Downsides/Exploits:
- Reduces uniqueness of Adventurer mechanics
- increases the number of characters who can affect monster/undead hordes, repair/find/improve Items, get scrolls,
- May not actually affect RP of those who refuse to adhere to Wiki guidelines.
- requires coding expansion of Noble attributes to include Adventuring.

[Zakilevo]

Tom wants to keep advies and nobles unique. I doubt this will ever be accepted.

Advies are not really needed for nobles. It is more of a convenience thing.

[Dallben]

It's not more of a 'convenience' thing:  Nobles literally cannot repair items, solicit sages/wizards to make scrolls, etc..

I think if it really was just 'convenience', then the majority of nobles wouldn't have a problem ICly or OOCly with treating Adventurers as lowborn commoner scum, scoffing at nobles who do, making Addies beg to be permitted to sell/repair items, etc..  They treat the adventurers nicely and encourage insolence because they view ICly/OOCly the services they perform as valuable and irreplaceable, especially compared with other Nobles who cannot help them.

I think there's no utility in keeping adventurers "unique" from Nobles in this aspect.  It really gives disincentivizes the 'proper' medieval treatment of commoners by nobles, in particular, by allowing significant detrimental game effects (lack of access to items/repair items/scrolls, persecution by fellow nobles, Horde rising in one's region, etc.) as a direct result of adventurers choosing to not work for anyone who doesn't pamper them.

[Anaris]

It really gives disincentivizes the 'proper' medieval treatment of commoners by nobles, in particular, by allowing significant detrimental game effects (lack of access to items/repair items/scrolls, persecution by fellow nobles, Horde rising in one's region, etc.) as a direct result of adventurers choosing to not work for anyone who doesn't pamper them.

If you're having problems with adventurers feeling like they deserve to be treated as something other than commoners, then it should be perfectly obvious what you should do: make sure that nobody is pampering them.

Noble in your realm saying they should have leadership roles in a guild? Kick him out! He's not just a traitor to the realm, but to the entire concept of nobility, after all!

Noble in another realm giving them special perks? Demand that his realm kick him out!

Whole realm supporting this incredibly perverse idea? Declare war on them!

There's not a single thing that should be more upsetting and outrageous—in its truest sense of "provoking outrage"—than the notion of nobles treating commoners as something other than, well, commoners.

[Dallben]

make sure that nobody is pampering them.

Yes, that is the obvious solution state.  See, that's how I thought it was supposed to work, but it didn't fly ICly.  Everybody else (except maybe 1 Fissoan and a realmy of mine who now that I think about it only ranted OOCly about it) argues that treating Adventureres Well (talking to them, maintaining a guild and preferring Adventurer convenience, efficiency; permitting direct letters between them and nobility; publicly 'honouring' them for hunting monsters; tolerating them talking back/lack of respect to nobility etc.) is not pampering/treating them as equals.  It's a difference of opinion, which I guess can't really be settled easily or generally.

It's also kind of tough to purport to declare war on the realm that a) your noble was and may return to be a part of; b) is politically and militarily supporting your nobles' new realm; and c) effectively took on the rest of the continent that tried to gang-beat it, and emerged victorious.  Hell, what do you do when you cannot possibly beat (ICly) those nobles acting improperly?  If it's an OOC issue of proper roleplay, not really an IC disagreement, why should my character be the one ruined by being forced to be the aggressor and having his butt handed to him?

In any event, I figured if you can't enforce 'proper' roleplay, might as well try to fix the game mechanics and remove the incentive to pamper Adventurers; that way there'd be no tenable IC argument that Adventurers perform a vital service and are more valuable than other nobles.

[De-Legro]

It's not more of a 'convenience' thing:  Nobles literally cannot repair items, solicit sages/wizards to make scrolls, etc..

I think if it really was just 'convenience', then the majority of nobles wouldn't have a problem ICly or OOCly with treating Adventurers as lowborn commoner scum, scoffing at nobles who do, making Addies beg to be permitted to sell/repair items, etc..  They treat the adventurers nicely and encourage insolence because they view ICly/OOCly the services they perform as valuable and irreplaceable, especially compared with other Nobles who cannot help them.

I think there's no utility in keeping adventurers "unique" from Nobles in this aspect.  It really gives disincentivizes the 'proper' medieval treatment of commoners by nobles, in particular, by allowing significant detrimental game effects (lack of access to items/repair items/scrolls, persecution by fellow nobles, Horde rising in one's region, etc.) as a direct result of adventurers choosing to not work for anyone who doesn't pamper them.

Items and scrolls are hardly essential, so there is no problem with no having access to them. The hunting is handy, but again hardly essential, you can just destroy the armies when they appear.

[Zakilevo]

Items and scrolls are hardly essential, so there is no problem with no having access to them. The hunting is handy, but again hardly essential, you can just destroy the armies when they appear.

This is exactly why I don't give a flying duck about advies. When I see one, I beat the crap out of the advy or toss him into my prison if I am a judge so I can either take his !@#$ or execute him if he is an outlaw or ban him so when I capture him again, I can gut him.

[Indirik]

Remind to never vote for one of your characters as judge.

[Zakilevo]

Remind to never vote for one of your characters as judge.

:'(

[Eirikr]

:'(

And for every one that chooses not to vote for you, there is another who would do so just as quickly.

[Gabanus family]

And for every one that chooses not to vote for you, there is another who would do so just as quickly.

+1 this would be a perfect reason to vote for him.

Although, the few advies who don't say a word to nobles etc, don't insult them, well those we could have them do their work, I suppose.

[Ossan]

Seems a bit extreme. I don't think I have ever had a reason to actually do anything to adventurers, they either never talk and just go about their business or are groveling before me as they should.

Though I would support not letting Advies and nobles directly talk to each other outside of direct trade offers or posting notices (ie noble is like "Dear nearby advies: I need item X repaird. Great rewards await!".

EDIT: Well, that recent message in the judge's channel seems to confirm the complaints about people being too attached to the advies as Nobles.

[JDodger]

the requirement of no unit would make this solution unpalatable to the vast majority of nobles to take part in, which will render it useless from the beginning.

i dont see why a noble couldnt simply hunt monsters themselves WITH a unit, or seek items or talk to sages. actually i think that would be a.fun way to alleviate boredom in a peaceful realm.

all in all though i dont see the treatment of advs as anything game breaking. it is frankly annoying especially in the realm you are referring to, but mainly because of certain personalities involved and not necessarily game mechanics. but when you consider the size of that realm and its busy military, the advs are frankly essential - and this would, in real life, cause them to enjoy an elevated status in society.

the rank system in the royal rangers guild though - total bs. "Noble ranger" rank for commoners should never have existed.

[Ossan]

That realm should have no problems dealing with the occasional monster uprising, they are quite capable of fielding two separate armies as it is. Advies can't be everywhere at once  anyway, and while they can certainly be a help and provide a valued service that isn't any reason to treat them as equals. Being tolerant and relatively courteous enough is enough. Anyone actually treating them as equals should be lightning bolted, no mercy.