Author Topic: Reduced noble count and siege  (Read 10215 times)

Zakilevo

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Reduced noble count and siege
« Topic Start: October 01, 2015, 11:14:04 PM »
Now that we are down to 500 players - not 500 active btw,

it is becoming quite difficult to siege a fortified region. A city guarded by 20k CS is pretty much invincible now that most realms can't even field that much CS. Hack, even 15k CS militia is too high even with 50 SEs.

With the introduction of Vita's latest militia calling feature - which lets you add even more militia once you are down to 4 regions, I think it might be worth changing some numbers on militia.

As we lose more people, it will become increasingly hard to besiege any fortified region.

Here are few ideas:

1) Make militia units consume a considerable amount of food. To maintain high number of militia, you have to be both well stocked in gold and food now

2) Militia units are police units unless they are stationed in a stronghold. They are more likely to ditch the field.

3) Make militia units twice as more expensive to keep them. If you fail to pay them, they pillage your own city to earn their pay.

4) Make SEs more deadly and effective (Doing more damage to fortifications per battle) or make them more abundant.

5) More blocks are required to build a fortification. A lot more so it is impossible to recover walls Lv3 and higher within a month maybe?

Indirik

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #1: October 02, 2015, 02:47:27 PM »
I've been wondering how to deal with militia, too. They are way too powerful right now.
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Eirikr

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #2: October 02, 2015, 04:48:21 PM »
Personally, I like the idea of making SEs more effective. They're already a burden to carry around and only useful when fortifications are present, so I don't think increasing their power will imbalance anything (whereas the gold and food options offer more advantage to well-endowed realms). Additionally, it might make the game more active since cities in general would be more at risk. Right now, it's not usually a good strategy to bother with cities until you've dealt enough damage to the rest of the realm... putting them back on the menu might increase the pace of the game a bit.

Eirikr

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #3: October 02, 2015, 05:27:22 PM »
Actually, I had another thought:
Militia is so prevalent because it's an easy solution. You don't have to worry about them not following orders because they're not human controlled. They'll always be right where you told them to be. If we can force players to take a more active role in their defense, we might see more opportunities for strategy to pay off and region turnover.

Is there a way we can set a hard limit on the amount of gold spendable on militia (at the realm, duchy, or region level)?

This would obviously limit the amount of militia you can put into any given region, potentially making where you place them a much more meaningful decision while also limiting their maximum strength. Consequently, this would also encourage better gold distribution because what was being spent on militia can now go to players instead, increasing mobile strength which promotes active campaigns.

I feel like I haven't quite adequately expressed what I'm thinking here, but hopefully you get the gist. The primary point is that militia is abused because it's such a reliable option - push the power back to inherently unreliable players and place a higher emphasis on their involvement.

I know for a fact that most characters (unless they're very new) don't hit their recruitment caps on a regular basis and often don't get enough gold despite the claims of too much gold in BM (and are probably bewildered by such claims). This solution might address all those concerns simultaneously.

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #4: October 02, 2015, 09:22:27 PM »
It's an interesting thought, but very important to decide on what the goal is.

To help with some numbers, Sirion attempted a siege with about 24k attackers vs 28k defenders and about 65 SE's (give or take, don't have the battle report anymore). They did about 75% damage to the wall in that battle. If we make SE's stronger for instance, then a wall will be surely at least 1 level destroyed even if attacking forces is equal to defenders. This would mean that about 5 sieges would be more than enough to break any city.

I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it would be the situation for single city realms in that case.
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Indirik

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #5: October 02, 2015, 10:37:16 PM »
65 se's is a pretty respectable force. Assuming you had a lot of infantry, I'm not surprised you did that much damage.

I'm not really sure that se's really need a buff. But something definitely needs to be done about militia.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #6: October 02, 2015, 11:45:01 PM »
Let's think about what the major problem is at the moment...

1) Cities generate a lot of gold - Ever since the change in the whole estate system, we've been getting a lot more gold than before. This allowed everyone to put more militia.

2) Loss of players - As the player count declined, everyone now has less people to lead troops. Now we are low enough to be unable to besiege a well defended city without allying with multiple realms.

3) Food - Doesn't seem to play have any impact on militia. Also, there hasn't been that many starving regions due to the new food system. Meaning, you can't even starve the region you want to besiege but can't due to high militia count.

4) Militia CS - Due to #1, militia count has gone up quite a bit. Combined with #2, it is becoming almost impossible to besiege a city.

Zakilevo

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #7: October 03, 2015, 12:12:20 AM »
I see few more ways to solve this.

Directly and Indirectly.

Direct method - Make militia weaker in general.
1) By increasing the cost - You can do this in various ways. More militia = Less production + militia pay can work pretty well I feel. EX) For every 1k CS of militia, reserve 5% of region's production. 10k CS = 50% production reserved. This will essentially limit CS to less than 10k CS at most for most regions as they still have to pay militia with their reduced income.
2) Setting their withdraw rate high - Make them ditch the field a lot sooner.
3) Change how it works - Militia must be gathered before being able to used. Once gathered they will stay around for a week then return to their other duties. Only 25% of the militia will always be stationed by the walls. If the region lord forgets to call them, only the stationed units will fight.
4) Weaken their strength in general. Make militia lose CS by 30~40% upon its creation. Only mobile units can have 100% CS.

Indirect method - Strengthen mobile units or other features related to militia
Make mobile units stronger by maybe 30%

Bedwyr

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #8: October 03, 2015, 03:44:04 AM »
Alternatively:

Militia are peasant soldiers not under a noble's direct control.  If they outnumber the main army (or even are a significant fraction of the army), wouldn't they start getting ideas?  Like, they should be the ones in charge?  So if your mobile army is 20K, then 5K militia can be kept under control relatively easily, but 10K starts getting restless, and 20K is insanity as you are outright risking a peasant revolution?
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Eirikr

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #9: October 03, 2015, 08:56:44 AM »
Alternatively:

Militia are peasant soldiers not under a noble's direct control.  If they outnumber the main army (or even are a significant fraction of the army), wouldn't they start getting ideas?  Like, they should be the ones in charge?  So if your mobile army is 20K, then 5K militia can be kept under control relatively easily, but 10K starts getting restless, and 20K is insanity as you are outright risking a peasant revolution?

Add a cumulative chance for that peasant revolt to actually happen and you've got my vote! Temporary NPC realm! No movement or orders necessary, just treat it like a rogue region.

Zakilevo

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #10: October 03, 2015, 07:26:02 PM »
How about this,

If militia + mobile > enemy CS, militia will leave the walls to fight enemy mobile CS thinking they are stronger?

Indirik

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #11: October 03, 2015, 07:41:55 PM »
OK, were trying to reduce effectiveness, not utterly overturn things. Militia is still about the only way that small realms can defend against big ones.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #12: October 03, 2015, 08:06:08 PM »
OK, were trying to reduce effectiveness, not utterly overturn things. Militia is still about the only way that small realms can defend against big ones.

True. But the difference between small and big are becoming quite close at this point.

Sacha

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #13: October 03, 2015, 09:07:10 PM »
Perhaps make militias give out negative influence depending on size. When you have a thousand armed soldiers stationed permanently in a city, there's going to be trouble, especially if they don't get to fight every once in a while. Basically a limited version of Too Much Peace. Bored militia will start to get unruly and harass the locals, causing drops in production, morale and loyalty. They'll start thieving for gold and food. Riots might ensue, killing dozens of peasants and militia alike, and men might outright start deserting in droves.

Bedwyr

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Re: Reduced noble count and siege
« Reply #14: October 03, 2015, 09:26:57 PM »
OK, were trying to reduce effectiveness, not utterly overturn things. Militia is still about the only way that small realms can defend against big ones.

As with most things, have it scale by size of the realm.  Smaller realms could support a higher percentage of their total mobile force as militia than large realms.
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