The Great Northern Civil War

[Glaumring the Fox]

We all knew that HD and Antiqualia were Lurian proxies/allies. We've known that since the two realms were created.

And Arnor somehow gets a pass because it fits with your theory? HD isn't and has never been a Lurian proxy realm. We are a war realm and Luria fit into that narrative. We have chosen to prop up Antiqualia because we desire a diverse north lands of varied kingdoms and cultures. Whats the use of Morek splitting if its to be replaced by another realm that is basically the same?

[Blue Star]

The adjective "Great" gets used to describe far too many wars in this game.

This made me smile

[dustole]

And Arnor somehow gets a pass because it fits with your theory? HD isn't and has never been a Lurian proxy realm. We are a war realm and Luria fit into that narrative. We have chosen to prop up Antiqualia because we desire a diverse north lands of varied kingdoms and cultures. Whats the use of Morek splitting if its to be replaced by another realm that is basically the same?

In most cases that would be valid justification.  But Antiqualia was offered a way out.  They would have gotten a new realm. New name.  Rural regions to feed themselves...  They turned it down and got HD to help them.  The varies realms and cultures argument lacks traction.  From the other side it looks like lurian culture instead of varied culture.

[GundamMerc]

In most cases that would be valid justification.  But Antiqualia was offered a way out.  They would have gotten a new realm. New name.  Rural regions to feed themselves...  They turned it down and got HD to help them.  The varies realms and cultures argument lacks traction.  From the other side it looks like lurian culture instead of varied culture.

You confuse ESA with Lurian.

And I wouldn't sign on to be a puppet of Arnor either. That'd just turn the North into another Atamara, something I'm amazed you guys have failed to learn after Morek Empire fell apart.

[dustole]

No puppet state.  No Arnor nobles in their realm either. 

[Vita`]

Killing a realm and creating a new one, just because you don't like the name a morekian (not a lurian) chose, seems like an awful lot of pointless paperwork and silliness.

[EstionTarcyn]

Puppet of Arnor, or Puppet of Luria. A puppet still has the hand of a man well up their behind, which isn't appealing to me either way.

Though ICly I would say, it comes down to that Antiqualia and HD never actually has disproven that they are Lurian proxy states. Whether they are or not, that is the view many realms have on them, and that is a card that is on their hand. HD possibly moreso than Antiqualia. They have a reputation of being in service of other's despite what would possibly have been more reasonable and logical. The whole thing is about perception after all. My side vs your side. Not exactly objective. HD and Antiqualia will remain saying they are independent and free of Luria, and those outside will say they look like Lurian vassals. The truth is probably a mix of the two.

As for creating a new realm for Antiqualia, I actually do like the name, so if that's the reason, then it is silly. I like it a lot more than Arnor as it is taken out of Tolkien's Lore.

[GundamMerc]

Puppet of Arnor, or Puppet of Luria. A puppet still has the hand of a man well up their behind, which isn't appealing to me either way.

Though ICly I would say, it comes down to that Antiqualia and HD never actually has disproven that they are Lurian proxy states. Whether they are or not, that is the view many realms have on them, and that is a card that is on their hand. HD possibly moreso than Antiqualia. They have a reputation of being in service of other's despite what would possibly have been more reasonable and logical. The whole thing is about perception after all. My side vs your side. Not exactly objective. HD and Antiqualia will remain saying they are independent and free of Luria, and those outside will say they look like Lurian vassals. The truth is probably a mix of the two.

As for creating a new realm for Antiqualia, I actually do like the name, so if that's the reason, then it is silly. I like it a lot more than Arnor as it is taken out of Tolkien's Lore.

So what beyond the Astrum war has shown HD to be a Lurian puppet? As I've said before, people may be confusing Luria with ESA, the two having very separate interests, though outsiders may view each as one and the same.

[Graeth]

Didn't HD break off from Morek?

[Vita`]

To me, it often seems that people see puppets where there are none and don't see puppets where they are. But I guess its all a matter of perspective.

Didn't HD break off from Morek?

Yes, by the immediately-previous, long-time ruler of Morek who has been/was long viewed within lurian circles as the main cause for the fallout between luria and morek over the years.

[GundamMerc]

To me, it often seems that people see puppets where there are none and don't see puppets where they are. But I guess its all a matter of perspective.
Yes, by the immediately-previous, long-time ruler of Morek who has been/was long viewed within lurian circles as the main cause for the fallout between luria and morek over the years.

A bit of an understatement, since Morek was at war with Luria.

[Indirik]

Of course it's all a matter of perspective. From Morek's point of view, HD broke away from Morek in the middle of the war, immediately made friends with Luria, and offered to make their realm the refugee realm that Luria was trying to make from Morek land. They then declared wars that very closely aligned them with Luria's politics. The rulers ancient history with Luria was irrelevant, because everyone in morek was new, and none of us knew or cared about it. HD being a Lurian puppet state was more in line with what we needed them to be. And it also made sense, when seen from our angle.

As for Antiqualia, that was even more of a slam dunk. A break away realm that immediately selected a Lurian as their ruler, aligned their politics with Luria, tried their best to keep the northern realms at war, and hosted a guild that the Lurian ambassador was trying to get everyone to join. And, as always, puppet status suited Morek's political needs.

It doesn't matter if the accusations are true or not. The accusations will continue to be made ic, so long as they are not blatantly obviously wrong, because they are politically expedient, and because they make sense to those who are making the claims.

[Ossan]

You confuse ESA with Lurian.

And I wouldn't sign on to be a puppet of Arnor either. That'd just turn the North into another Atamara, something I'm amazed you guys have failed to learn after Morek Empire fell apart.

And Arnor somehow gets a pass because it fits with your theory? HD isn't and has never been a Lurian proxy realm. We are a war realm and Luria fit into that narrative. We have chosen to prop up Antiqualia because we desire a diverse north lands of varied kingdoms and cultures. Whats the use of Morek splitting if its to be replaced by another realm that is basically the same?

One of the later offers to Antiqualia which was made was for them to surrender, join Spingdale to Arnor, and then refound themselves as a colony if they wanted to. They wouldn't have to permanently bee some puppet, they just had flat out refused every other (and early on they were pretty reasonable offers considering they got crushed on the field), we just didn't want them to immediately turn around and attack us again while we went fighting on another front because otherwise what the !@#$ would be the point of keeping them alive? Arnor doesn't want complete stagnation in the north and saying we want to turn it into another Atamara is silly.

Antiquallia was given plenty of chances to survive, but it has all the strength, willpower to live and character of a suicidal limp biscuit. Half their members were kicked out, fled, or went inactive and they lack anyone who has the time and energy to run the realm. They were given plenty of chances to keep living but they showed they had the same willpower and strength to live as a limp biscuit.

IC of course helping Antiqualia is perfectly valid reason. If a bit silly but whatever, the war had been boring for weeks since AQ was unable to fight back properly. Though it would have been nice to finish them off.

Personally I have never really thought of HD as a Lurian puppet, they just took advantage of the situation to go to war. On the wrong side :p

[EstionTarcyn]

Exactly what Indirik said. It actually does not matter what the truth is on the matter OOCly, ICly it will be used against HD and Antiqualia that they are puppet states. It actually matters very little.

For what HD has done, well the Astrum war was very suspicious when you saw the peace negotiation that was in place at one point. Then there is Antiqualia (being considered a Lurian proxy) that was struggling, and attacked Arnor from HD lands, while HD officially did not condone this, they later did and joined Antiqualia. This lead to a slight outlash naming HD dishonourable and the like. The IC reputation stems from IC actions that can be connected to overall being aligned with Lurian ideals. In truth whether they are is another matter, but politically it has and will be used against HD by others. Like I said, I expect the truth to be much more nuanced than that.

[GundamMerc]

Of course it's all a matter of perspective. From Morek's point of view, HD broke away from Morek in the middle of the war, immediately made friends with Luria, and offered to make their realm the refugee realm that Luria was trying to make from Morek land. They then declared wars that very closely aligned them with Luria's politics. The rulers ancient history with Luria was irrelevant, because everyone in morek was new, and none of us knew or cared about it. HD being a Lurian puppet state was more in line with what we needed them to be. And it also made sense, when seen from our angle.

As for Antiqualia, that was even more of a slam dunk. A break away realm that immediately selected a Lurian as their ruler, aligned their politics with Luria, tried their best to keep the northern realms at war, and hosted a guild that the Lurian ambassador was trying to get everyone to join. And, as always, puppet status suited Morek's political needs.

It doesn't matter if the accusations are true or not. The accusations will continue to be made ic, so long as they are not blatantly obviously wrong, because they are politically expedient, and because they make sense to those who are making the claims.

You realize part of the reason people protested in Morek was because some of the Morekians didn't give two !@#$s about giving land we couldn't use anyways to the refugees in Luria, right? Our characters felt that Morek Empire was a bloated realm greedily holding onto lands it didn't have lords for, and nobles such as Helm were too unwilling to give up the lands in order to gain a more secure control over a smaller number of regions.

As for your first point Ossan, a temporary puppet is still a puppet, and not in control of its destiny.