Retention Revisited

[Chenier]

This is a very good idea. It establishes context and gets the player looking forward to the next turn. I can also act like a built in tutorial on what it means to act midevally.

I disagree. It'll discourage leaders to use the public channels to discuss and plan as random newbies might get their messages and share it with their new realm.

[D`Este]

I disagree. It'll discourage leaders to use the public channels to discuss and plan as random newbies might get their messages and share it with their new realm.

At some point you have to consider, do I want to try what I can to keep things secret, or just share it with the realm so that everyone feels involved? Keeping things too much behind closed doors also frustrates a decent amount of nobles, people want to be involved, rather then just order following nobles. Ofcourse, you can't share everything, but most, you can.

[LilWolf]

I disagree. It'll discourage leaders to use the public channels to discuss and plan as random newbies might get their messages and share it with their new realm.

I've yet to be in a realm that discusses anything of importance to the enemy in public. If you're not in an army, you'll pretty much have no idea what the realms military is doing in most realms. Most you tend to see is maybe some scoutings, a few arguments about something and maybe a diplomatic update from the ruler on something that every other ruler already knows. So I don't really see the harm in giving a glimpse at the past weeks messages.

Though this does raise the point that the game has become somewhat segregated. Most orders used to go realm wide, but the army system has made that disappear. This has very effectively shut out those that aren't in an army from easily following what's happening in the war their realm is fighting. Mostly that means courtiers etc. live in their own bubble while the army lives in its own.

For example, in Darka my priest character knows about the armies of the realm very little. All he hears is a few battle reports now and then. He has no idea where they're going, when they're coming home etc. He has no idea that within the army there have been some nice arguments that would have been fun to read. That information used to be very public. Now it would be an hassle to ask for updates all the time so you could live a little through the other nobles in the realm. He loses out on a lot.

That's probably also one point to consider in retention. If your character is not in the right segment of the realm, you just miss a lot of what happens. A lot of that being missed used to be in the realm wide channel.

[vonGenf]

I disagree. It'll discourage leaders to use the public channels to discuss and plan as random newbies might get their messages and share it with their new realm.

Their new realm /is/ the realm of which they get the messages. The realm-wide channel is pretty much public anyway; if you're willing to discuss there, then this certainly won't change your mind.

[Chenier]

At some point you have to consider, do I want to try what I can to keep things secret, or just share it with the realm so that everyone feels involved? Keeping things too much behind closed doors also frustrates a decent amount of nobles, people want to be involved, rather then just order following nobles. Ofcourse, you can't share everything, but most, you can.

Many people already feel the current compromising hard, without random foreign nobles getting a chunk of their messages. Don't underestimate some people's paranoia, despite their good will.

I've yet to be in a realm that discusses anything of importance to the enemy in public. If you're not in an army, you'll pretty much have no idea what the realms military is doing in most realms. Most you tend to see is maybe some scoutings, a few arguments about something and maybe a diplomatic update from the ruler on something that every other ruler already knows. So I don't really see the harm in giving a glimpse at the past weeks messages.

Though this does raise the point that the game has become somewhat segregated. Most orders used to go realm wide, but the army system has made that disappear. This has very effectively shut out those that aren't in an army from easily following what's happening in the war their realm is fighting. Mostly that means courtiers etc. live in their own bubble while the army lives in its own.

For example, in Darka my priest character knows about the armies of the realm very little. All he hears is a few battle reports now and then. He has no idea where they're going, when they're coming home etc. He has no idea that within the army there have been some nice arguments that would have been fun to read. That information used to be very public. Now it would be an hassle to ask for updates all the time so you could live a little through the other nobles in the realm. He loses out on a lot.

That's probably also one point to consider in retention. If your character is not in the right segment of the realm, you just miss a lot of what happens. A lot of that being missed used to be in the realm wide channel.

I have. "most realms" isn't all realms. And it's not only military orders I'm talking about, but more like political plans. It's already enough to have to worry about leaks and spies, but random give-aways? As it has often been said, the integrity of the message system must not be mined or people will use outside communication methods to compensate.

[vonGenf]

Many people already feel the current compromising hard, without random foreign nobles getting a chunk of their messages. Don't underestimate some people's paranoia, despite their good will.

I'm not sure we understand each other. I was proposing that newly created characters get the realm-wide messages of the realm they are being created in. They're not random foreign nobles, they are nobles of your realm.

New characters don't appear out of the blue; presumably they just turned eighteen or achieved recognition as high nobility, but they were there before. They are going to receive tomorrow's messages; why not have them receive yesterday's messages?

[Indirik]

I'm not sure we understand each other. I was proposing that newly created characters get the realm-wide messages of the realm they are being created in. They're not random foreign nobles, they are nobles of your realm.

New characters don't appear out of the blue; presumably they just turned eighteen or achieved recognition as high nobility, but they were there before. They are going to receive tomorrow's messages; why not have them receive yesterday's messages?

That's an interesting idea. It would give new players something to read. And it would tell experienced players right off the bat whether the realm was even alive anymore.

[Indirik]

The big reason looting has become more popular is because of estates. Before, looting was rare because a TO was never out of the question. Now, with lack of nobles, we can be fairly certain that many regions will not be TOed, so one no longer cares for sympathy and one tries to deny his opponents in the only way other than TOs: revolt.

^^^ This.

Very, very few realms actually try and TO regions during a war anymore. Those that do universally fail to actually make progress. TOs used to be SOP. YOu would almost always march on your enemy, and TO as you went. That rarely happens anymore. So you loot the regions clean, and move on. Of course this damages the roads, and slows *everything* down...

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Something that arises from this shift towards looting to revolt instead of taking over is less lordship openings...obviously. But this also ties into perceived social mobility because it is fairly uncommon to see current lords and dukes (especially dukes) vacate their positions except in revolt or inactivity. In the case of revolt, often the former lord is reinstated. In the case of inactivity, there's usually some long waitlist for the next in line.

[Sacha]

More reasons for the lower echelons to press for more conquest. New land = new openings. Right now, most of the time it's the realm leaders who decide where and when to attack... But if an entire 'lower caste' of nobles begins urging for war, a smart ruler would be wise to listen, lest he wants to turn them against him.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Oddly enough, they rarely clamor for war. For many realms, people are content or even desire peace, and the ruler is all too happy to grant them that.

That is also assuming they talk at all. They do, sometimes, maybe. And then they stop and usually just follow orders.

[Solari]

^^^ This.

Very, very few realms actually try and TO regions during a war anymore. Those that do universally fail to actually make progress. TOs used to be SOP. YOu would almost always march on your enemy, and TO as you went. That rarely happens anymore. So you loot the regions clean, and move on. Of course this damages the roads, and slows *everything* down...

I agree with the above, but I also see where a hard turn toward this type of play could result in a fancier version of the War Islands, which isn't what I signed up for.  Overall, though, this would go a long way toward easing problems of expansion, promotion, and retention.

[Phellan]

I agree with the above, but I also see where a hard turn toward this type of play could result in a fancier version of the War Islands, which isn't what I signed up for.  Overall, though, this would go a long way toward easing problems of expansion, promotion, and retention.

It use to be quite common to fight over border regions, TO'ing them.  Wars tended to be fought until one Realm was utterly absorbed into another.   Evenly fought wars tended to have a few regions switch back and forth until some peace (or allies were threatned to come in) could be negotiated.   That led to simmering hostilities, where Realms would war, peace for a while (and hate each other), then find an excuse to go back to war (aka:  Nighthelm and Soliferum, we must've warred a half dozen times until half the island marched on Nighthelm.).   Best part was our wars rarely changed our borders (or would only change one region) so we always wanted to go back at them a little while later.    There are some serious benefits to having an enemy or two on your border . . .

[Miriam Ics]

We have good ideas here, but I see some problems we need to avoid at any cost.

I play RK, another game. The mayor problem there is between players.
Forums give us a "magic" and persistent memory of everything that happen, memory that people dont have and that is good to not have. Many problems or animosity goes away simply because we forget about them.

I think some ideas here are really good:

To make the last week of realm wide letters available to read for new nobles, so they have at least something to do while they wait.
To get all new nobles to join a guild automatically, in which the mentors/helpfull people of the realms are in to give advise to new nobles and teach them how to play the game.
To make the form with questions to be answered by newbies after some time in game.

For this last one I would say, could be a good idea not only for newbies, but to see what people - that dont come to forum or irc - think and feel about the game.
We could have, once in a year, a popup form with general questions that it would show better what the players think about the game.
Questions that will assure rules are being followed.

I like this list of ideas, but I think any of it are not easy to implement while the above are very easy and could be done in a short time.
Each of the ideas below need to have the consequences analised.

• Make it possible to maintain realms at a functional level without extensive buro/police/court work.
• Make it possible for realms to expand easier.
• Make founding of new realms easier.
• Provide incentives to reward realms for the creation of new realms.
• Make it easier for newly created realms to survive.
• Make working as a team more rewarding.

Someone said that a enemy realm could use a newbie char to read the plans.
Well, they can do this today too, just will take longer.
Its their problem if they want to cheat.
I think we have enough of cheating in real life, to be paranoic about it in a game as well.

At the end, what really, really works on retention, is to have the old players, giving warm welcomes to the newbies and making them feel they arrived at some kind of really nice place.
And I need to be honest: none of the realms I am in do this.

[Phellan]

Personally, I'd really love to see a OOC board - even if it's just a direct link here as a child board for each Realm under the Continent.

Something that new players can have to post questions, ask things, where there could be OOC introduction threads so players know who each other are, rather than just characters.

Also it could provide a place to store important messages/RP's etc that people could check out to get some idea of the history or playstyle of the Realm.

Wouldn't be for any IC actions or OOC planning, obviously since it would provide access as a child board to others outside.  But it would give some "center" that new players could check out either before joining a realm or as a plaec where they can get involved in the community at large on a smaller scale.   It would also provide an OOC place for players to comment on what's going on in the Realm - there is definately a certain intimidation factor about IC complaining about inactivity, goals etc as those in charge tend to have a more vested interest in their own actions, rather than making sure EVERYONE is having fun.  Giving an OOC place where players could question how the Realm is function would be nice, it could give a place for construction criticism. (Yes yes, or trolled and turn into a flame war . . ugh, I'm optimistic!)

Plus this would avoid the OOC fest of messages we never want to see in game - if you want to critique and talk OOC, put it on the Boards where everyone (other Realms and Mods/GM's/Tom) can see whats being said and that it doesn't violate IR or ethical stuff relating to power gaming.