Retention Revisited

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Outer Tilog is yays. Who said no RP? I'm RPing. In fact, the only messages I have ever sent (and ever will send) are RPs. Gold colored paper, yeah! Not so subtly taking jabs at players/characters who insist on writing overly long, pretentious, and self-absorbed RPs by parodying them unskillfully? Of course! Mature language? Wonder why I haven't lost honor their due to vulgarity reports! Wahahahahahaha!!!

And I play a guy who speaks in a wannabe film noir style of self-monologue pretending to be a private detective who made a deal with the Devil and who needs to find answers by taking over Outer Tilog so he can annihilate all Gibbers and in that way avenge the death of his (non-existent) wife.

[Vellos]

Do this survey again in September and you may see a different story.

You may be assured that I plan to update it semi-regularly.

[bluexmas]

I am a new player who has stuck around for a while. I suppose everyone on these boards can say that, but as someone who has recently gone through the period of adjustment, I'd like to lend my two cents to the discussion. I have nobles on Dwilight and Atamarra, and the distinctions that have been drawn before this have largely held true in my experience. On Dwilight, my character has managed to work his way into some minor positions of leadership mainly by being reliable and actively sending messages to people. This has been extremely fun and interesting for me, and has led to my sticking around the game for as long as I have. Unlike most online games, I do find this to be a real team game, and that's what keeps me hooked. In Atamarra, I've found relatively little opportunity for advancement or leadership so far. This isn't really a criticism, as the leaders of my realm seem to be extraordinarily nice, but when I look at the days in realm of the leaders, they are often in the thousands. That's great and wonderful, but also pretty intimidating to anyone new looking for an opportunity to advance beyond order-following knight. I know there are things I can do on my own to spice up the game, but I don't think most new players would know about them right away (and changing classes takes some time/honor/prestige anyways).

I would say that benevolence from the top is pretty important as it is difficult to make bank as a knight. (in 3 months of daily playing I've accumulated no surplus gold on either character - I'm dependent on the army sponsor for gold every single time I refit and haven't had any extra to spend on training or anything else) Another thing that was mentioned that I've found engaging is being invited in to message groups where decisions are debated and made - that's what gives me an understanding of the narrative arc of my realm, and deepens my engagement with the character.

Other players I'm sure have other priorities and likes/dislikes, but this has been my experience.

[Bedwyr]

Regarding gold...

That is highly realm and situation dependent.  I've had precisely three characters who at any point in their life really had "surplus" gold.  One of them was expressly created as an attempt to fill the coffers of House Bedwyr, and made a lot of money as a spy.  One of them made it to a lordship in a completely peaceful realm with nothing going on, and the last is the Duke of a large city on Dwilight who only occasionally has surplus funds and those tend to get plowed into his religion or infrastructure improvements.

That's mostly because I've ended up playing in realms that are constantly fighting important wars where every piece of gold counted or on frontiers where there was jack-all gold to go around  :)  Consequently, House Bedwyr has the highest fame/family gold ratio that I'm aware of.

So, gold is one of those things that can depend on the place and time.  It only annoys me when I see (for instance) the handful of people at the top of the realm leading 100 man units while most of the army is fielding fifteen or twenty.  IC, I love seeing that in my enemies as it means I have a good shot at finding disaffected elements and it's incredibly inefficient. OOC, it bugs me, because that's the kind of thing that drives people away.  Fifty vs thirty men is one thing, being a Duke has its perks.  But 100 vs 15 is just silliness.

[De-Legro]

Regarding gold...

That is highly realm and situation dependent.  I've had precisely three characters who at any point in their life really had "surplus" gold.  One of them was expressly created as an attempt to fill the coffers of House Bedwyr, and made a lot of money as a spy.  One of them made it to a lordship in a completely peaceful realm with nothing going on, and the last is the Duke of a large city on Dwilight who only occasionally has surplus funds and those tend to get plowed into his religion or infrastructure improvements.

That's mostly because I've ended up playing in realms that are constantly fighting important wars where every piece of gold counted or on frontiers where there was jack-all gold to go around  :)  Consequently, House Bedwyr has the highest fame/family gold ratio that I'm aware of.

So, gold is one of those things that can depend on the place and time.  It only annoys me when I see (for instance) the handful of people at the top of the realm leading 100 man units while most of the army is fielding fifteen or twenty.  IC, I love seeing that in my enemies as it means I have a good shot at finding disaffected elements and it's incredibly inefficient. OOC, it bugs me, because that's the kind of thing that drives people away.  Fifty vs thirty men is one thing, being a Duke has its perks.  But 100 vs 15 is just silliness.

I've heard of knights in some realms on FEI receiving only 16-30 gold per tax. Such small amount seriously reduce the options and fun of knights in my opinion, and results in them constantly requiring handouts to support a decent unit. I'm sure some realms do this to ensure that the Lords/Dukes can dish out gold to the most "active" nobles, but to me its far too much micro control over the realm, to the detriment of some of the player base.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

I have a lord in a small region on Dwilight. By my calculations, assuming full production and 10% taxes (a long way off), I should get on average 79 gold per week. I offered my knight a very generous 25% -- but that means he will only get about 20 gold per week. Quite frankly, it is a pitiable sum.

[vonGenf]

I'm sure some realms do this to ensure that the Lords/Dukes can dish out gold to the most "active" nobles, but to me its far too much micro control over the realm, to the detriment of some of the player base.

It's not always just a way to run around the IR restrictions on activity. Patronage is a time-tested way to run a realm. I have given gold to character who would do nothing useful that I know of with it, except that they would support me politically when needed.

Pure everyone-is-equal makes for less opportunities for politics.

[Bedwyr]

Pure everyone-is-equal makes for less opportunities for politics.

True, but there's a difference between favouritism and cronyism, and keeping most of the realm on such a small amount of income that they can't support anything resembling a reasonable unit.

[LilWolf]

I've heard of knights in some realms on FEI receiving only 16-30 gold per tax. Such small amount seriously reduce the options and fun of knights in my opinion, and results in them constantly requiring handouts to support a decent unit. I'm sure some realms do this to ensure that the Lords/Dukes can dish out gold to the most "active" nobles, but to me its far too much micro control over the realm, to the detriment of some of the player base.

You won't believe how many times I've had to smack a lord in Darka for giving a knight a crappy oath that gave a 10-15 gold income from the region. It's not necessarily greed from the dukes/council that cause such problems. The lords of especially rural regions just often don't seem to realize that they will have to put up 50-60% of the regions income in total to oaths to give their knights a decent income.

In that sense the oldest tax system we've had was quite a bit better for retaining new players since everyone was guaranteed a decent income right off the bat since all the tax income of the realm was pooled and distributed fairly equally.

[Indirik]

EC and Atamara can't hold players very well, and loss of players on those continents gains a wide audience due to being large continents.

Joining new realms is a complete crapshoot. You can get a totally loser realm that blows your experience of the entire game. For example, here's an anecdotal story on my experience with a new character on EC:
Having had my character in Perdan killed in a war, I decided to go somewhere new on EC. I chose Fontan, specifically because of the changing political scene in the north (most of my experience on EC has been in the south), and the possibility of joining a war against Westmoor. So I started a new character and marched off toward the capital of Ashforth.

It was three days before anyone in Fontan sent a realm-wide message. And that was a copy/paste of a buro work report. During that entire time no one sent me a "Welcome to Fontan" message, no lords offered an oath, and there was no discussion of anything, at all. So three days of "Your men enjoy some free time." Since then, there have been a few messages, but all of the nature of "We need more police work in Krimml." You'd have sworn that this realm was already dead.

If a new player had joined this realm, and seen this "activity", then I'd expect them to just quit. Now, you could argue that the people in Fontan knew I was not a new player, and so didn't bother with the welcome messages. But then you could also say that a relative of the recently deceased ruler of Perdan joining Fontan would deserve special recognition.

Anyway, my point is that the new player experience drives new player retention. And quite often, from what I have heard, the new player experience can sometimes be pretty bad. Unfortunately we don't have any data on where new players actually start new characters, and how long they stick around. Tim (Anaris) might be able to do some data mining in the dev server, but I wouldn't have any idea what to look for, or what any of it would mean.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

A lot of those realm ads are severely outdated, for one thing, giving players the wrong impression about some realms that might be down to a single duchy but still proclaim they are the shining beacon of awesomeness that they were 4 years ago.

Another thing is that the current way for newly created characters to choose a duchy isn't really very informative. Also it puts them in a random region in the duchy, which, while it might show them around, doesn't lead to too many options. I'd rather they all just start in the capital, like emigrating characters. New players with their first characters certainly wouldn't understand the nuances of ditching their starter units for a better quality one to save money because days 3 and 7 give automatic family gold, nor would they likely understand the whole thing about different paraphernalia being available in different region types.

[Indirik]

I would say that benevolence from the top is pretty important as it is difficult to make bank as a knight. (in 3 months of daily playing I've accumulated no surplus gold on either character - I'm dependent on the army sponsor for gold every single time I refit and haven't had any extra to spend on training or anything else)

I'll start this comment out by saying that I do like the new oath system. It is pretty flexible, and allows individual knights to be rewarded for their loyalty and service. The ability to give out good marks to favored knights, and black marks for screwing up, and even the potential to protect knights from punishment and dissolve oaths out from under troublemakers, all great stuff. Good additions to the game, overall.

However, bluexmas' comment does outline the major failing of the oath system: Distributing the gold in an equitable manner to the knights of a realm. I don't care how "realistic" this system might be, it makes things difficult and problematic for new players. It allows experienced, or callous and uncaring, lords to pray on new players, to the ultimate detriment of the overall game. Some regions also don't have the gold potential to pay knights a decent income. I was lord of a region that made 230 gold, and required three knights for full estate coverage. Not exactly a lavish income for any of them. Of course that assumes you can actually find three people to be your knight.

People hate asking for gold to meet the recruiting requirements outlines by generals and marshals. Especially if they have to continually ask for gold each and every week, or after every battle. Kind of makes them feel like they're failing. And it's a pain in the ass. And then you have to wait. And maybe you won't get enough gold, or any gold at all. And some people just don't ever ask. And the people with the gold have to stay in a city to pass it out. But maybe they aren't in a city, so the request never gets filled. And then everybody gets mad at everyone because stuff's not getting done, etc., etc.

I'm not saying that we need to return to the old ways of tax distribution. But it does make me wonder if there is any kind of happy blend of the two, that can allow for some efficiency in getting gold out to those who need it, while still allowing for the good stuff that the new system brings. Allowing lords to do whatever they want is good for the lords. It supports the favoritism and political maneuvering aspect of things quite well. Except that it is not a very friendly game mechanic for newer players. It puts all the power into the hands of the lords, who can just say "10%, take it or leave it". And the new players are supposed to know that 10% of a rural is a bad oath?

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Hm, hey, remember when Chenier said that bankers were useless? We could give them some sort of option that could assign a portion of realm income first to priority recipients.

Like, the banker could have the comprehensive list of all nobles in the realm (except, maybe, the council, dukes, and lords, to prevent abuse). The judge and ruler already have similar lists in bans for the former and ooc bans and exiles for the latter. This would just have different mechanics and intent.

Basically the banker is notified of who needs financial aid. The banker selects a % of real income to be sent to those people, before all other calculations for realm income (or after, this is just rough idea). This information is public and can be checked under some page in the Information page, both to make sure it's happening, and because, well, this stuff should be public since it is the realm's stuff.

Yeah, it's unrealistic. But you know, I think I'd rather play a slightly unrealistic game than one that I do not like due to mechanics conflicting with realism.

[egamma]

Well, we have wealth taxes--why not have reverse taxes (aka welfare) for poor knights?

Give the banker an option that says "if a knight receives less than x gold, give them gold from the realm share to make up for it".

And the realm should be able to levy effective taxes against the duchies to make up for it.

[Sacha]

Welfare? For nobles? You must be joking, sir!