Retention Revisited

[Perth]

If I had them I would give them. The tough part of doing this is that Battlemaster is such a niche game. It is the absolute best type of game for its niche, but its niche is small and finding just the right kind of players that want to play this sort of game and dedicate the time to really put into having fun in battlemaster to its fullest extent (which I argue is more than 5 minutes a day when nobles really want to get the full experience) is very hard. The best way of finding new players to me that works so far is one already in implementation: Word of mouth. Those that play tell their friends who they think may be interested and get them to try it out.

I agree Word of Mouth and recruiting friends is probably one of the best ways to bring people in. Indeed, I came to think game because Vellos introduced it to me 3 or 4 years ago.

However, I've begun to doubt somewhat that relying on this method really is bringing in the numbers. I've introduced probably 5 or 6 people to the game, all of who lost interest after the first several days.

Essentially my questions is this: Word of Mouth is great, but what else do we have or can we do to bring in niche players?

[Anaris]

I agree Word of Mouth and recruiting friends is probably one of the best ways to bring people in. Indeed, I came to think game because Vellos introduced it to me 3 or 4 years ago.

However, I've begun to doubt somewhat that relying on this method really is bringing in the numbers. I've introduced probably 5 or 6 people to the game, all of who lost interest after the first several days.

Essentially my questions is this: Word of Mouth is great, but what else do we have or can we do to bring in niche players?

I think we need more information to answer that question.

So let me ask you: why did those 5 or 6 people lose interest?  What were they expecting that BM did not provide?

If the answer is "WoW", then there's nothing we could do about it, and nor do we want to.

If the answer is more along the lines of, "People were rude, and nothing was actually happening," that's different.

[Perth]

I think we need more information to answer that question.

So let me ask you: why did those 5 or 6 people lose interest?  What were they expecting that BM did not provide?

If the answer is "WoW", then there's nothing we could do about it, and nor do we want to.

If the answer is more along the lines of, "People were rude, and nothing was actually happening," that's different.

That's a good question, and maybe my results with people are just that, my results and not reflective of normal success rates of recruiting friends.

But on to the question, why did those people lose interest? Hm. It is hard to say, I wouldn't say it was because they weren't the right kind of people. I've only ever tried introducing it to people whom I know and sincerely think they would be interested. Usually they are my friends who are into games to begin with, interested in fantasy or role playing to an extent, and usually those who enjoy either strategy or political wheeling and dealing. Doubly, they have all been people who I have revealed the game to over time. ie.

"What're you doing?"

"Oh, it's just this game I play called Battlemaster?"

"What is it?"

"It's kind of like a text-based roleplaying game merged with strategy, politics, etc."

And from there, based in their curiosity and interest level, delve further into explaining what you do in the game and what I've done.

"Yeah, I'm actually King of a realm with about 40-50 other people in it. Another character of mine is a Priest who is the Duke of a massive fortress who is trying to spread his religion over the continent"."

Further stories of my own characters or other characters and all of the different things you can do, etc. etc.

If still interested, I help them sign up, give them some advice on a starting realm based on what they may be interested (Military, politics, religion, etc.), usually help them write a first introductory letter to their realm (how they should style it, what to say, etc.) and then usually leave them be and then follow up the next few days asking them how BM is going and to my dismay their answer is usually "Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. I haven't logged in since."

Perhaps the few people I've tried just aren't the right folks for the game, it could be as simple as that. Though, I admit I've been a wee bit dismayed with my success levels. lol.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

My roommate at London always saw me playing this game and he asked me one day. I told him about it, and he got to making an account. He chose the family name Silenus. Then he looked at the info, browsed the wiki. And he didn't play because his exact words were: "It looks like it'll take too much effort."

Note this was in the fall/winter of 2008.

[Bluelake]

Yep.

I must say I introduced about 5 people to the game, with different results.

My sister loved it. She enjoys the whole war thing, but mostly she enjoyed making RP and having fun while being a simple knight. She quit because it consumed too much of her time. Also, she had loads of fun on RedSpan, even during her fall. The battles didn't matter as much as the sense of camaraderie. Nonetheless, when she went to ASI she still played for a while, even visited me in Falasan for a few battles, but eventually she couldn't join the RPs for lack of time, and I assume the atmosphere inside ASI wasn't as close as in RedSpan.

edit: I talked to my sister, and she said the main reason she lost interest was for losing her redspanian friends when her region was sold and the realm was finished. The guild they had didn't last long, and most people left the island anyway. I suppose this problem can't really be countered by code, but by friendly receptions in other realms, to feel like home, and perhaps having more than one character (as a backup home).

A friend of mine who really likes war games and to play in teams was discouraged by the politics, and he didn't get to see much action when he joined, quit a few days after, found the game a bit confusing and unclear. I think it was just not his style.

A friend of my mother who joined mostly for the RP felt the atmosphere to be a little dark-ish, and not very responsive, also quit after a few days. I did advise her to go to Arcaea, but I don't recall whether she went or not. (she's also hard core player and forum admin in another game, so I'm not sure how much that influenced in her not wanting to work too hard to find her niche here)

My boyfriend (hah, he plays WoW, behold!) joined after watching me play for quite a while, and he's really into both strategy, team-play, war, politics and roleplay. He liked the players, he enjoyed the battling and politics and team-play. He left because of the ganging ups. (both due to deception with player attitudes and with the game for not having mechanisms to deal with it properly) I know some people really don't see the ganging ups as issues, but for those who want a fair fight and see in many continents the same sort of situation (it was some years ago, and he experimented that in 2 realms) with realms fighting lost battles and not advancing diplomatically, well, it's really hard to keep playing. He also left a realm who wanted to join one of the ganging ups, then left the game altogether.

The last is my mother (cheers!) who likes RP, politics, team-play, and nowadays I think she also likes the war thing. She's still playing, much more than I am, in fact. And loving it (despite the bugs and problems). You can ask her on IRC for more details, though. :p

As for myself, I was close to leaving BM several times. I hate the ganging ups, but I think we're working on codes to improve this a bit, so I wouldn't leave because of that. The reasons, over the years, were:
1. time consumption: the 5 minutes a day is really wishful thinking - just what you do when you really aren't playing but have to maintain a char and help the realm a little
2. the last days of my first realm: which involved both a very stressful period, followed by a very boring truce period, followed by uneven hopeless battles (though unavoidable and necessary for the wrap up), followed by lots of friends quitting or pausing the game, which finished lots of RP partnerships and story lines... - don't get me wrong, the whole war was extremely fun, even to the losing side, but the last days took their toll, waiting for each region to be taken over, discussing what now, seeing friends leave.
3. time consumption again, later on, but this time due to RP
4. my current chars are all but one paused because I don't have the time to play them in a meaningful way, and I don't see much fun in reading orders every 2-3 turns, seeing I can't follow them because they don't refer to me, doing some maintenance work and going away... Basically, I can't play bm lightweight :)

So... here you have some BM experiences, though they are a bit hearsay.

I'm a bit skeptical when talking about time consumption, because I think we can find time for stuff we're really enjoying. But I couldn't pinpoint what was it that made me not want to spend my free time here. I'll work on this later (hah).

edit2: Now that I think about it, maybe the whole "losing a dear realm" situation needs post-traumatic counseling, since so many people leave or pause, specially those who used to be in positions of power. :p It'd probably be healthier if more realms resigned instead of fighting to death.

[Anaris]

As for myself, I was close to leaving BM several times. I hate the ganging ups, but I think we're working on codes to improve this a bit, so I wouldn't leave because of that.

Well, we're trying to, but it's not trivial  :-\

If you can think of anything specific that might help deal with this issue, please feel free to post it (in a separate thread, so as not to hijack this one).

[Miriam Ics]

I am always thinking about this subject.

I just wrote a long and detailed text about how I arrive at BM but lost it due to a refresh made by mistake, so, you wont need to read it :p

In a short version, I've created a account at 2006 and didnt stay because I didnt have the time to play two games and BM appear to be too difficult.
Later, two years ago, I decided to try it again and have now 5 chars, all active but I still consider myself a newbie.
Was very, very, VERY upset when I created the fifth, a advy, at Atamara, and was in prison at the next turn. Did a mistake and was banned from my realm. Almost delete the char, but, I thought would be a chance to learn.

During all this time, I invited a lot of people to play, but only 2 are still playing. Most of the ones that did not stay, said it is too difficult and they are right.

I believe the key to retain new people is somehow related to what Artemesia said about being in a realm with a good army, with organized battles and lots of action.
Which new player will like to start in the middle of a war, with no gold, no resources, and not understanding anything?
It takes a lot of time to understand how to recruit, what to recruit, how to pay, how to train.
Another day, a newbie told me he was training every day. It would be nice if we werent under attack by all sides.
We have ties to our realms, we want to protect our regions, newbies dont have any ties.
If they cannot try and fail, and learn with mistakes, they will not stay.

BM dont have the attraction some games have. Dont have colours, dont have graphics, but we love it.
BM is for smart people, special people. Not everyone will like it, only a few will stay and I am sure, we want more players but we dont want the game to change much.
BM is difficult, has lots of details and
I find it specially interesting what Vellos said about the activity in the oldest islands. Some people know how I am always curious about how Sirion can have so many active players.
What they do? How they do?  Maybe they could share their experience. I say Sirion because is the realm next door.  There might be others realms with the same dinamic but this is the one I can follow, moreless.

Vellos conclusion is that EC and Atamara are the less active. Maybe because are the oldest islands, with long, old and boring stories (to the new players) and with old and non-interesting claims for regions.
A new player want to be able to create something, to conquer, to grow and specially, to make changes. If everything is already done, there is no motivation.

I got involved at the history of Asena, because of Tali. At PeL, because I met everyone at IRC. Couldnt stay at PoZ even being a very young Countess. Went to Thalmarkin because I was told it was the funniest realm and so far it is true.
So, if we have people that lead us to create ties with the realm we start, or to bring us to IRC, we stay, no matter how difficult it is.

It is late and I better stop for now but I have been thinking that maybe, we need a place to newbies to start. With less problems, more gold, more monsters and undeads to fight. Like a academy. A place to start and have fun, before looking for new adventures.
A place where old players could be mentoring all the time instead of using all resources to the incoming battles or starvation.

My short version is still too long. Sorry...

[Shizzle]

Perhaps offering a 'lightweight' island would make a difference. The game would be stripped of all complex things. It would flatten the (now very steep) learning curve. I don't think this would result in a newbie island, becaus e I'm sure veteran players could also find a place there.

Basically, why not make a hybrid of BM and WI? The superstructure would be like WI, with attrition, troop production and troop upgrades. And the substructure would consist of players working as a team within one realm. When one realm dominates the map, the island gets reset :)

Advantages:
*stick true to the 'lightweight game' promise
*a place for new players to learn some aspects of the game, without too much complex things (that don't matter to a newbie anyways)
*no roleplay, thus no english skills needed. Less people on the regular island that simply play for the strategy aspect of the game, and are those silent characters never sending any letter
*a healthy mix of new and old players. For instance, I don't see noobs becoming the leader of one of the factions. If things like income and recruitment are realm-based (so everyone gets the same income), new players can take up a role of importance

Disadvantages:
*new coding(?)
*conservatism

Many of us liked WI when it first came out. However, the thing I missed most was teamplay, and how repetetive the games were. If you'd somehow keep track of another ladder with wins, you could scramble all participating players every round.

Maybe I should not have put this here, but I think what I'm suggesting is highly relevant to the player retention issue, because I see two main problems:
*the game is too complex for newbies
*the game works on a too big timescale. A lot of time and effort is needed to advance, and access the fun parts

[Peri]

Some people know how I am always curious about how Sirion can have so many active players.
What they do? How they do?  Maybe they could share their experience. I say Sirion because is the realm next door.  There might be others realms with the same dinamic but this is the one I can follow, moreless.

Unfortunately, that period is more or less over. Simply put, Sirion was struggling for their own survival, fighting a gazillion battles in very short timescales making sure that almost everyone from veterans to newbies were funded immediately and thrown into the fray. Victories were abundant, but nevertheless there was never a moment to lose. Everyone was thrilled and engaged in every single battle that it was so important to win.

I started BM with a char in Sirion. I could not understand anything of what was going on, but the mere fact of moving where the general called for realm wide rallies (those were old times where the military hierarchy was a bit different) and engaging in HUGE battles against Fontan on almost weekly basis gave me enough interest to go on playing and trying to understand this super complex game.

Later the war intensity did not diminish. For one reason or another there were always battles to fight, and always tight enough to create a lot of cameratism between Sirion's nobles. During the peak of intensity Sirion had some 120 or more knights. We struggled to make sure everyone had some gold to field a unit, we were lucky to have competent general and marshals that made the war very much enjoyable.

Then, when we started winning clearly (and that was after some 4 RL years), things started to go badly. There was no more challenge, and everyone high in hierarchy relaxed. It started to be hard to find people willing to put a lot of time into being marshal/general as it was still a huge effort, but not so longer mandatory for sirion's survival. Everyone calmed down and people lost interest. Now Sirion is at peace with his historical enemy, that was beaten and forced to peace, and down to 80 knights, losing more steadily. After the super interesting war it's really hard to find new ways to commit people. Realm-wide sacrifices and team play - mandatory for Sirion's survival - left the place to arguing, dissent and all those political troubles that make life so frustrating for those in power.

To close this excursus and give some meaning to my post, I believe it would be probably helpful for new players to have access to many more informations about realms. The problem is that they would probably be unable to judge those informations given their poor knowledge of the game anyway.

[vanKaya]

I think a game like BM is gonna have a naturally low retention rate. As others have said it's not for everyone since it is pretty unique. The problem is losing players that Would have liked the game but had their first experience in a realm that didn't suit them and because of that lost interest.

For example I started playing at the same time as two other friends. We all started in Cathay and two of us even managed to rise in the hierarchy relatively quickly. Still, it seemed like there was a very tight grip on power by the dukes who were also the executive. One by one we became disenchanted with Cathay and paused our characters there and started playing in Terran in dwilight. There it felt like we actually mattered and that even though we were merely knights we contributed an equal portion to the realm as the leader, judge etc. Of course, this is true everywhere, a realm is useless without knights to help out, but it's not everywhere that this fact is actually addressed.

In Cathay I would regularly be ignored by the dukes and once an idea I had that was approved by the king was never implemented because the general/duke thought he had a better idea. Perhaps this is midevially accurate and perhaps for some this is exactly the experience they want, to be treated like crap until they prove themselves and then from there on they can treat others like crap. In Terran there was a mutual respect among the players I appreciated and an SMA appropriate equality among nobles that was likewise refreshing.

In conclusion I think Vellos ( I believe it was him who suggested this but it could have been others as well) was bang on when he suggested improving the realm descriptions so that a player can be better informed when choosing a realm and have a better idea of what to expect once in the realm.

To reword/ summarize what others have said, here are my suggestions:

1. An anonymous questionnaire for players who are leaving the realm that asks five easy to answer questions around why they're leaving, what they liked, what they didn't like of the realm. These questionnaires could be collected five at a time ( to preserve anonymity) then sent to the leader of the realm (who will most likely forward them ooc to the council or to everyone, as he saw fit). Also, give the option to refuse the survey but have the survey give you one honor point for completion (this honor point only being available once per month regardless of how many realms you leave, to prevent abuse)

2. A similar survey after a hundred days in realm that ask: what are the advantages of being a noble in keplarstan, what are the disadvantages, what needs to be improved in keplerstan. The five most recent surveys are available to nobles when they are thinking about what realms they want to move to. This also rewards realms for improving player experience and having happier, more satisfied nobles. There should likewise be an honor point given for completion ( maybe 2 since a hundred days in a realm is something of an accomplishment) as well as the option to refuse the survey.

3. Get rid of the current system that explains how many nobles are needed. Literally everyone needs nobles so all that 1 noble for 2 regions crap is next to useless. Instead it should be: need for nobles: urgent, high, medium, low ( though I doubt anyone would use the low setting). This setting should be available to the realms leader to change as he sees fit.


In conclusion, if I hadn't stumbled onto Terran I would not be playing battle master most likely. We have to maximize the amount of people discovering realms that suit their personality and playing style if we wanna keep potential future battle master players

[Indirik]

3. Get rid of the current system that explains how many nobles are needed. Literally everyone needs nobles so all that 1 noble for 2 regions crap is next to useless. Instead it should be: need for nobles: urgent, high, medium, low ( though I doubt anyone would use the low setting). This setting should be available to the realms leader to change as he sees fit.

While I agree that the current system of indicating who needs nobles is not very informative, I don't think a self-selected indicator would work. You even say as much yourself: "...I doubt anyone would use the low setting". There would be no incentive to /not/ simply set it at High or Urgent and nail that sucker in place so it can never be changed again.

It's the same story with any other self-selected criteria, or self-written realm description. These things will get set to whatever the first ruler that sees them determines is most likely to get them new nobles, and then they will never be changed. Or changed so rarely, and by so few people, that they might as well not have been changed. And the changes that will be made will most certainly /not/ be of the type that would cause people to not join the realm.

Any type of hard criteria given to new players to help them choose their realm must be some game-generated set of statistics. New characters already have access to the realm summary written by the current pr previous ruler. That's where the player-written propaganda goes.

[vanKaya]

Also a new map. Oh god a new map would be !@#$ing fantastic. And it would be something nice for new players to look at when they have no idea what's going on and they just wanna peruse the new world they'll soon be a part of.

I'm sorry but the maps we have now look they came out at the same time as windows 98. On the other hand I know toms been looking for new maps to work with for a while so I understand if it's a project thats easier said then done.

Go with civ 4 maps, or even civ 3!!! I would die if we could zoom in and out.... Wow I'm getting way to excited and off topic...

[Anaris]

Also a new map. Oh god a new map would be !@#$ing fantastic. And it would be something nice for new players to look at when they have no idea what's going on and they just wanna peruse the new world they'll soon be a part of.

I'm sorry but the maps we have now look they came out at the same time as windows 98. On the other hand I know toms been looking for new maps to work with for a while so I understand if it's a project thats easier said then done.

Go with civ 4 maps, or even civ 3!!! I would die if we could zoom in and out.... Wow I'm getting way to excited and off topic...

Just because Tom's looking for a new map editor, don't get your hopes up that that means there will be new maps in a week or two.  Or even a month or two.  Or even by this time next year. 

Redoing the existing maps in a new editor might be feasible in that time frame.  Creating a new continent takes vastly more than just drawing a new map, and is a huge undertaking.  I know it sounds really cool, but I don't want you to be expecting it just around the corner and feel disappointed when it doesn't come.

[vanKaya]

I agree with you Indirik, maybe the urgent high medium setting idea is flawed. Still, 100 day surveys wouldn't be player propaganda. I've joined a realm and stayed in it without really investing myself and I could have much to say about what I honestly liked and didn't like. And remember, it would only be the most recent five available so it would be constantly changing to adjust for evolving player experiences.

Also, if a realm only received glowing, stoked on life reviews, maybe that realms doing something right

[Indirik]

Still, 100 day surveys wouldn't be player propaganda. I've joined a realm and stayed in it without really investing myself and I could have much to say about what I honestly liked and didn't like. And remember, it would only be the most recent five available so it would be constantly changing to adjust for evolving player experiences.

Also, if a realm only received glowing, stoked on life reviews, maybe that realms doing something right

A "100 day survey" is an interesting idea. I wouldn't consider that in the same class as a realm-written propaganda piece, like the ruler-written realm summary.