Retention Revisited

[Indirik]

So could region rebel at all? Or was it that once you TOed a region, it was yours at full stat unless the enemy TOed it back?

I believe they could, yes. But there was nothing you could really do directly to affect how the region recovered. It improved on its own, all by itself. You couldn't help it along, so there was no reason to sit around for a week doing NPW/CW. As soon as the region was driven from the enemy, your army could move on.

Of course, the flipside to this is that if you destroyed a region and made the peasants hate you, then it would hate your realm for a *long* time, as there was nothing you could do to make it any better.

In that sense, yes. However, no one can win Dwilight; therefore your goal in the game must be self-defined, which gives you a wide liberty to adopt personal goals. On the War Islands, the overarching goal to win the island is always present.

My character is trying to win Dwilight. :P (Of course, he has a personal definition of "winning" that does not involve every region on the map flying an Astrum banner.)

[vonGenf]

Do the Guilds have a mini forum in them, or just three boards for different levels of access that only a few people can modify? I confess I don't fully know their system, but the impression they gave me of it was along that line.

There are no forums in BM. You send letter to people, and you can search all received and sent letters from the past month. If you want to write something more permanent, there is always the wiki; most realms roleplay documents in the wiki as being "deposited in the realm library".

[Anaris]

IIRC, it was possible to secede and create realms. Isn't that how Toren was created on both SEI and SWI? Thing is there were only 3 cities and a stronghold. And since three of them were occupied by pre-generated realms, that doesn't leave much room for expansion. :p

No, Toren was a pre-generated realm in the second incarnation of both islands.

I would argue that points 2 and 3 are not really true, either. Personal ambition is always a driving factor. Yes, the realms may all be at war, but *somebody* has to be the king. So why not me? After all, I *know* that I could do a better job than you, right? There were several rebellion in various S*I realms. One of the Toren pages specifically mentions the string of rebellions that crippled the realm.

Absolutely.  There was plenty of scheming that went on there.  I was part of it, at least on the first SEI.

Back when the war islands were around, I really don't think they were any more of a "team play paradise" than realms on any other island. When people describe the way their war islands realms were run, it sounds to me like they were describing the exact way Perdan was run back in 2006/7, on EC. I've heard that certain other realms on AT were even more team-focused than that.

This is precisely the point.

Back in 2004, the whole game was run that way.  The reason the War Islands were removed was that the game in general had already moved past the utterly rigid team-play mode.  Even the War Islands themselves were hotbeds of intrigue and (sometimes bizarre) politics when I returned, briefly, not long before Dwilight opened.

[vonGenf]

My character is trying to win Dwilight. :P (Of course, he has a personal definition of "winning" that does not involve every region on the map flying an Astrum banner.)

That's my point, really.

On a war island, this would seem like a second-rate objective. Anyway, no one will remember what you achieved once the island is reset, unless it directly led to victory.

[vonGenf]

Back in 2004, the whole game was run that way.  The reason the War Islands were removed was that the game in general had already moved past the utterly rigid team-play mode.  Even the War Islands themselves were hotbeds of intrigue and (sometimes bizarre) politics when I returned, briefly, not long before Dwilight opened.

Ah, that makes sense.

[D`Este]

As a new noble joins a realm, he most likely wants to know what is going on in the realm. Why not make the last week of realm wide letters available to read for new nobles, so they have at least something to do while they wait?

Also, what about all new nobles join a guild automatically, in which the mentors/helpfull people of the realms are in to give advise to new nobles and teach them how to play the game. By doing this continent wide the response on the questions of new nobles because faster and they can easily learn more then depending on a single mentor in a realm.

[Anaris]

I'd also like to mention something about the halcyon Golden Age of team play that people are casting the Olden Days (more or less, the time up through 2006) as.

It was, in many, many cases, a much less friendly atmosphere.

Everyone was expected to do everything for the realm, no exceptions.

Caught send family gold home? Banned!

Miss a few turns at the wrong time? Banned!

Not where your battlegroup was ordered to be? You're under suspicion as a spy!

Loitering in the capital? You're under suspicion as a gold-farmer!

Want to play a free spirit? Too bad.

Want to achieve ambitions of your own? You better plan on getting them by working up through the ranks, because ain't nobody gonna help you scheme and intrigue against the Ruler—unless there's already a faction in the realm that opposes him en masse. (Also, there are no guilds/secret societies to help you plot in secret.)

Have problems with something the ruler—or someone else in the realm—is doing? Think it was against the Social Contract? Well, you better hope Tom's paying attention, and feeling friendly towards you, because there there are no Titans to complain to.

Yes, I'm exaggerating, somewhat.  But a lot of the things that are considered utterly wrong in BattleMaster today were commonplace back then.  Tom's official guidelines on getting rid of inactive people who were using up realm resources was (IIRC) "Send them an order, and in a day, if they haven't followed it, ban them for not following orders."  There have been a few high-profile multicheaters caught in the past year or so, but back then, I remember hearing about rulers ordering people in their realm to create spy accounts in other realms.  (They were caught and locked, of course, but that's the ones I did hear about...)

So the moral of the story is be careful what you wish for.  Team play can be fun, yes.  But it can also create deep OOC animosities, like existed between (some people on) the different sides on the EC back then.  And it can drive the leaders of each team to become hypercompetitive, and ridiculously demanding of those following them.

[vonGenf]

Also, what about all new nobles join a guild automatically, in which the mentors/helpfull people of the realms are in to give advise to new nobles and teach them how to play the game. By doing this continent wide the response on the questions of new nobles because faster and they can easily learn more then depending on a single mentor in a realm.

I think that's an amazing idea! But the Titans would need to enforce a "mentor can't lure people to do wrong things for their realm's interest" rule.

[Bedwyr]

Also, what about all new nobles join a guild automatically, in which the mentors/helpfull people of the realms are in to give advise to new nobles and teach them how to play the game. By doing this continent wide the response on the questions of new nobles because faster and they can easily learn more then depending on a single mentor in a realm.

That actually sounds really cool.  Tim, Rob, thoughts?

[Indirik]

No, Toren was a pre-generated realm in the second incarnation of both islands.

OK, that would explain that. But wasn't it at least possible to switch allegiance? I seem to recall hearing that happened.

The reason the War Islands were removed was that the game in general had already moved past the utterly rigid team-play mode.

Perhaps it has gone too far away from team-play?

[Anaris]

OK, that would explain that. But wasn't it at least possible to switch allegiance? I seem to recall hearing that happened.

I don't remember.  Might be so.

Perhaps it has gone too far away from team-play?

Well, I think that's probably true, at least in some cases.  I think that the dev team's vision has gotten too scattered, and we need to refocus our efforts and the direction of the game; I also think that the guidance of Tom and the dev team has changed the culture quite a bit.

I think that some of the change was necessary, but yes, it's gone too far to remain fun especially for newbies who don't know what they're getting into.

[Indirik]

Not where your battlegroup was ordered to be? You're under suspicion as a spy!

Loitering in the capital? You're under suspicion as a gold-farmer!

Want to play a free spirit? Too bad.

Want to achieve ambitions of your own? You better plan on getting them by working up through the ranks, because ain't nobody gonna help you scheme and intrigue against the Ruler—unless there's already a faction in the realm that opposes him en masse. (Also, there are no guilds/secret societies to help you plot in secret.)

You do realize that all of this still happens, right? It's not like the player base has suddenly decided that it's OK to do all of this stuff. Not only that, but the actions that triggered this behavior from the realm still happens. People still sit around and farm gold. People still create spy characters. Except now other players are too paranoid to do anything about it.

Yes, I'm exaggerating, somewhat.  But a lot of the things that are considered utterly wrong in BattleMaster today were commonplace back then.  Tom's official guidelines on getting rid of inactive people who were using up realm resources was (IIRC) "Send them an order, and in a day, if they haven't followed it, ban them for not following orders."

No question about it, the game has changed, and so has the player atmosphere. No more daily filling out of Excel spreadsheets to track your army. No more need to toe the line to keep from getting in trouble.

But then there's also much less meaningful warfare (for most islands/realms). Much less thrill of a fast paced conflict with your neighbor. No more fast-paced discussions in the military council after turn change to decide what to do. Much more sitting around doing police work and civil work. And worrying about food, and whether or not you have your estates covered. Much less sense of actually doing something that actually means something.

Yes, we have progressed in some areas. But somewhere along the way we've also lost a good bit of the sense of fun that we had.

[Sacha]

IIRC, it was possible to secede and create realms. Isn't that how Toren was created on both SEI and SWI? Thing is there were only 3 cities and a stronghold. And since three of them were occupied by pre-generated realms, that doesn't leave much room for expansion. :p

Toren was created by Tom as a fourth realm after the first SEI war ended. Secession was in fact possible though. In the second war, Sandalak City seceded from Ikalak and existed as a separate realm for a while until it was taken back by Ikalak.

[Phellan]

But then there's also much less meaningful warfare (for most islands/realms). Much less thrill of a fast paced conflict with your neighbor. No more fast-paced discussions in the military council after turn change to decide what to do. Much more sitting around doing police work and civil work. And worrying about food, and whether or not you have your estates covered. Much less sense of actually doing something that actually means something.

Yes, we have progressed in some areas. But somewhere along the way we've also lost a good bit of the sense of fun that we had.

And this is exactly why we're having retention problems.    We need to bring that feeling of meaningful actions and fun times back.

[D`Este]

And this is exactly why we're having retention problems.    We need to bring that feeling of meaningful actions and fun times back.

And ideas how to achieve that?