Is Dwilight really SMA?

[vanKaya]

I think that it would be an unsaid understanding if that. If anything the conversation wouldn't come to religion and if it did it would be politely and subtly steered away.

For example my character is a Triunist, but more as an association than as a belief. If someone SA, VE or whatever demanded upon my beliefs he would simply say that the Triun is what it is and move on to issues that mattered to him, like spilling monster blood.

(off topic: obama's re election chances are slim? Pray tell who has a real chance beating him? Mitt,pawlenty, bachmann? The GOP candidates are a who's who of unelectable characters. Truthfully if I had to pick a republican I'd say Ron Paul. And if I had to pick who had the best chance, scarily enough I would say bachmann... )

And I think what glaumring was referring to is that atheists make tv/alcohol/sports/science/art/whatever their god. Which isn't entirely untrue.. In a sense... I guess...

[Anaris]

(off topic: obama's re election chances are slim? Pray tell who has a real chance beating him? Mitt,pawlenty, bachmann? The GOP candidates are a who's who of unelectable characters. Truthfully if I had to pick a republican I'd say Ron Paul. And if I had to pick who had the best chance, scarily enough I would say bachmann... )

Can we try and keep the OT US Politics stuff to a minimum, please? If you want to discuss it, there's a perfectly good General Talk board for that.

[Shizzle]

So you're assuming that every high noble is a cynical, duplicitous, atheist that only uses religion as a means of social domination of the proletariat?

In a way, yes. I mean: look at the Pope. Look at Medieval monasteries where nobles' kids just had a playground away from society. "Ora et labora", yeah right. I am sure the Catholic Church has a basis of faith, but that basis lies not at the top.

In-game that would be: yes some nobles show true zeal and faith, but face it: most of them joined a religion to gain influence, not to spread the truth.

IR: Prophets don't prophetise the truth, they spread their influence. Or they became a prophet involuntarily (~Jesus)

[Shizzle]

I think that it would be an unsaid understanding if that. If anything the conversation wouldn't come to religion and if it did it would be politely and subtly steered away.

I agree with that though. No use to brag about your lack of faith to a rival noble, only to see he uses the people against you

[Heq]

I think that tends to vary by region and state.

Clearly the Medici's were not a very religious bunch, and they installed a couple of Popes (there is one great letter in which instructions are given on how to make sure the Pope pays his bills).  The nature of any given state probably influences just how cynical the lords are likely to be.  Nobility in England or Italy were in constant danger and thus the "fiddly bit" in religion were glossed over in favour of practicality.  In later Spain, there were not the same concerns, so leaders would naturally become less cynical and "stabby".

Wonkspeak: True faith is probably like absolute morality and can be expressed as a luxury good in the personal consumption matrix.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I think many people here misunderstand, religion in BM is about connections and power. I am sure there are some devouts, but you'd be a fool if that is what you think your religion is the only thing about. Its about power and influence and working with like minded people. I think you are doing yourself a massive disservice by roleplaying an Atheist etc in BM, you are cutting yourself off from some great opportunities to interact with people and shape the history of Dwilight. Being non-religious in BM is silly, with SA/VE and the myriad of other little churches and cults Dwilight would be a drab place. Get involved and shape the history of Dwilight, if you are sitting on the fence you are only reading half of the book being written in this game.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You don't have to get into religion at all to enjoy the game. I'm fairly certain most players do just fine without being part of any religion. Someone with access to the player database can say for sure, but I will gamble on an estimate that there are at least 1.5 times more characters with no in-game religion selected than those who have.

It's just not something that is typically up front and with usefulness. Sure, it can sometimes get power and influence. Now ask again: How many people actually care? Don't make the mistake to think that all, or even the majority, of BM players give a hoot about positions and power and "writing the history of BM". Most could probably care less whether their names are etched into the pillars of BM glory, and rather more care about their own enjoyment, which does not necessarily require, nor necessarily enhanced, by more power and influence.

And so...onto a different, sort of, point: Way too much fluff in BM nowadays. For Dwilight to really be SMA, I'd suggest toning down some features a bit if only so we have more time to focus on actually, you know, roleplaying, rather than spending the time we have logged in to deal with food pushing and monster fighting, and treaty maintaining, and treaty writing, and policing regions and doing courtier work because of those monsters and...you get the point. The game can probably work fine with a more abbreviated economy, estate, treaty, system. That would place the focus more then on fighting, and preaching, which seems to be a key element of Dwilight: religion.

Here's actually a chance to get religion more focus, which is something some people have been screaming to have. Well? It's right here.

[Shenron]

You don't have to get into religion at all to enjoy the game. I'm fairly certain most players do just fine without being part of any religion. Someone with access to the player database can say for sure, but I will gamble on an estimate that there are at least 1.5 times more characters with no in-game religion selected than those who have.

You miss the point. We are talking about how to do SMA properly and that involves taking religion seriously.

Should we make using correct titles not necessary because nobles use titles incorrectly at least 1.5 times more than characters who use them correctly?

[fodder]

um.. atheists believe there's no such thing as god. not believing in any particular religion, especially any of the existing ones in the game is something totally different from atheism. there's no such thing as atheism in the game. being atheist is against sma.

irl, religion meant something and nothing. religion matters because your inheritance depends on it. if the church doesn't sanction your marriage your children will be bastards. your title might depend on the church sanctioning it or your war might require the church's blessing, etc. it means nothing because people bribe and scheme their way to become pope. they become bishops and what not because that position is paid for and in a way is not all that different from being any other lord. 1st son inherit the father's title, other sons might get stuffed into a church role or service elsewhere, so they can advance. they might not care much about the details of the religion or just pay lip service to it.. but they'll all go to church and attend mass, seek confession

food pushing is made all the more easier nowadays with the new auto caravans, no?

[Glaumring the Fox]

Artemesia is just sore from his days back in the church and then getting kicked out. Religion is very important in Dwilight and I stand by what I said before, it is another way to interact and build the story in Dwilight. Many of the people who are not in religion probably are putting some RL slant on why they don't join a religion.

Atheism is lack of belief in god...The Christian god does not exist in BM. Lack of belief in the Bloodstars would be Antihypernymastrum or something goofy like that.

[Shizzle]

Well, to get one thing clear: it's not because a character follows no religion strictu sensu, that they are atheist! None of my characters are in a religion, because I haven't found any to my liking so far, and building one myself isn't something I want to do. I tend to avoid atheism by claiming their family has their own secret cult thing nobody else knows about, and they never talk about it.

Having no religion strictu sensu on Dwi is not anti-SMA. Atheism would be to go around saying that there's no gods and troll the other religions. That would be non SMA

[De-Legro]

Artemesia is just sore from his days back in the church and then getting kicked out. Religion is very important in Dwilight and I stand by what I said before, it is another way to interact and build the story in Dwilight. Many of the people who are not in religion probably are putting some RL slant on why they don't join a religion.

Atheism is lack of belief in god...The Christian god does not exist in BM. Lack of belief in the Bloodstars would be Antihypernymastrum or something goofy like that.

The wonders of google


a·the·ist  (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

a·the·ism   
[ey-thee-iz-uhm]  Show IPA
–noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90;  < Greek áthe ( os ) godless + -ism

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You miss the point. We are talking about how to do SMA properly and that involves taking religion seriously.

Should we make using correct titles not necessary because nobles use titles incorrectly at least 1.5 times more than characters who use them correctly?

And now you're the one going to a different point. I hit the point: How can one take religion seriously when it is very likely that the majority of the PLAYERS do not even take it seriously, much less any of their characters?

Titles are things that are right there in the freaking message. If you're an idiot (even if you're blind BM has support so you can hear what their titles are) or really that lazy, then there's no help for you.

But religion? That's not in your face. Never has been, and hopefully never will be. I suspect that would be a turn-off for more players than it would be a turn-on.

Artemesia is just sore from his days back in the church and then getting kicked out. Religion is very important in Dwilight and I stand by what I said before, it is another way to interact and build the story in Dwilight. Many of the people who are not in religion probably are putting some RL slant on why they don't join a religion.

Atheism is lack of belief in god...The Christian god does not exist in BM. Lack of belief in the Bloodstars would be Antihypernymastrum or something goofy like that.

Trolololo away, my good penguin sir.

[vanKaya]

Umm I'm pretty sure quite a few people one dwi take religion seriously. Even if it's an alliance system more than a faith.

I think people are confusing real world religion and game mechanics religion. You don't need to rp yourself as a zealot, but clearly there are more advantages to being part of a religion than disadvantages

[Shenron]

And now you're the one going to a different point. I hit the point: How can one take religion seriously when it is very likely that the majority of the PLAYERS do not even take it seriously, much less any of their characters?

Titles are things that are right there in the freaking message. If you're an idiot (even if you're blind BM has support so you can hear what their titles are) or really that lazy, then there's no help for you.

Yet people still use titles incorrectly. People still say "Sire" instead of "Lord" etc. I suppose everyone is just stupid then, or blind.

Where are you pulling this "majority of players don't take it seriously"? Players take any powerbase seriously and will take religion seriously when it threatens to rid them of their power (e.g. The gigantic SA bloc.) The current problem the original poster has mentioned is that some people wish to stop organized religion because of religion will become a new player in the power structure of realms. This is only a problem in areas where religion has not already penetrated.

This is a problem because medieval times were pretty much characterised by religion being a major player in politics.

But religion? That's not in your face. Never has been, and hopefully never will be. I suspect that would be a turn-off for more players than it would be a turn-on.

There are plenty of islands that don't have SMA. Maybe you are better suited to one of them.