Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[Phellan]

Why don't we just remove TMP and see over two months what the difrence is.
I bet 20 euros there will be more wars instead of less.

There is no need of such feature.

I have fought fewer wars in the last few years than ever.    When I started playing wars happened all the time on the FEI and were constant.   Same in Bel.   

Now everyone spends time trying to manage regions and fend off TMP by hunting monsters in between wars, rather than fighting wars.

Kill TMP, place incentives for fighting wars.   New estate system should fix the issue with regions needing so much maintenance.

Players are more afraid of TMP than other Realms - and TMP just places incentives for EVERYONE to jump into one single war to keep it aware, rather than be plotting to hit their neighbours in the back for a few regions (or duchies) while their armies are away.

Could be cause most people can't get their army out of their own regions now before TMP cripples them.

[Chenier]

I have fought fewer wars in the last few years than ever.    When I started playing wars happened all the time on the FEI and were constant.   Same in Bel.   

Now everyone spends time trying to manage regions and fend off TMP by hunting monsters in between wars, rather than fighting wars.

Kill TMP, place incentives for fighting wars.   New estate system should fix the issue with regions needing so much maintenance.

Players are more afraid of TMP than other Realms - and TMP just places incentives for EVERYONE to jump into one single war to keep it aware, rather than be plotting to hit their neighbours in the back for a few regions (or duchies) while their armies are away.

Could be cause most people can't get their army out of their own regions now before TMP cripples them.

Indeed. Just for taking the time to TO a rogue region between campaigns, my realm is now getting the TMP warning. Granted, it's not the actual effect yet, but it is rather absurd that taking the time to takeover regions is discouraged.

[Chenier]

Indeed. Just for taking the time to TO a rogue region between campaigns, my realm is now getting the TMP warning. Granted, it's not the actual effect yet, but it is rather absurd that taking the time to takeover regions is discouraged.

And now it says it's kicking in. What bull!@#$. We aren't to blame if Nothoi didn't send their army in a coherent matter. And is taking our time to do a takeover that !@#$ing bad? (We just did the takeover, took a few days, and moved right out, didn't need to stay for maintenance).

Here's a new strategy for you all: avoidance. Just avoid fighting the enemy, and TMP will kill his army. Doesn't matter if you pick a few fights, apparently, or if he gets to loot a little bit (though in this case bugs prevented us from doing much of it). Find somewhere else to have a few battles, avoid your enemy, and then when his forces are all out of shape, about a week later considering how fast the effects are, it's an easy win.

I mean, come on! We are rallying abroad, and the game is telling us "don't wait for stragglers, go get yourself killed!"

Sure, I expect D'Hara to get TMP. But Fheuv'n? All we've been doing is military stuff. We had battles with rogues, battles with another human realm (none of the battles were large, but we aren't a large realm either), did a takeover... And the game doesn't give a damn.

Also, I hadn't paid much attention before, but I accepted for truth when people said "ample warning". We got 2 days. Two damn days, that's a *maximum* of 4 regions away you can make in 2 days. Many realms don't have any neighbors within 4 regions from their capital! And then, simply getting into enemy land isn't a guaranteed fight, either. And this code is saying "don't stop here to loot, push further for battles!" Because battles are obviously better than looting 100% of the time.  >:(

I was never found of TMP, but this is borderline retarded. We are at war, and our last battle was 5 days ago. If it checks only the sizes of the battles, then that's stupid, because we are a small realm and 1) we can't be blamed if Nothoi sent their forces in waves as well as 2) it would force us to always fight as a blob ourselves in order to make sure out battles were "large" enough for that script. We are at war, we *need* that training to remain good. As for desertions, as we seceded not that long ago, we are still short on good and large RCs.

We are at war, we are fighting battles against both humans and rogues, and TMP is about to cripple our ability to fight. If we were on the border, that would be just enough to make us pull out of the war, as being on the frontlines under these conditions is suicidal.

Why do all these "incentives" always have to be so freaking radical? Why is it always "do it *this* way, or suffer for it".

I've said it before. If we are to have a TMP code, it should be SLOW. Should take a while to kick in, and should take much, much longer to have any noticeable effect. It should also not act as a time bomb (with a godly 2 days warning...), but rather act on bi-monthly averages.

I would love to get in the next battle quicker, but that's not up to me. We must wait for stragglers, and we must then hope that the enemy presents a sizable force when we move into his territory. This should not be how a realm's peace levels are calculated.

[Sacha]

Yes... the plot is working perfectly ;D

[Chenier]

Yes... the plot is working perfectly ;D

In addition, tax tolerance will go down the drain, and our region stats might drop like crazy next turn because "taxes are stupidly high", something I've seen happen over TC in D'Hara before. Which may force our lords to go back to keep their city from revolting. And since our lords consist of about half the nobles...

I've never thought the code could act in such a stupid way.

Even if we did the strategically stupid and backstabbed Enweil, we wouldn't actually meet any forces and so we'd still have TMP. There is absolutely nothing more we can do than we are already doing. Does that mean that taking over rogue regions next to oneself is a bad thing? Really?

[Chenier]

Battles:

Battle in Drinilla   (5 days, 12 hours ago)
(rogue) vs. Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na

Battle in Drinilla   (6 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Drinilla   (8 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Drinilla   (9 days ago)
(rogue) vs. Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na

Battle in Zuhle   (18 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Gaxano   (18 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi

Battle in Zisswii   (19 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi

Battle in Gaxano   (20 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi

Battle in Zisswii   (20 days, 12 hours ago)
Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi

Battle in Zisswii   (21 days ago)
Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi

Battle in Gaxano   (22 days ago)
Nothoi vs. Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na

Battle in Piwani   (26 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Zuhle   (26 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Zuhle   (27 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

Battle in Eg Tutnu   (28 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)

And that doesn't count the looting.

But hey, obviously they aren't getting all these battles and looting they called for, right? Certainly taking a few days to do a takeover is completely unjustified...

[Gustav Kuriga]

2) it would force us to always fight as a blob ourselves in order to make sure out battles were "large" enough for that script.

The day I'd thought I'd never see. The day Battlemaster turned into a turn-based AstroEmpires. Thanks TMP.

[Ramiel]

Maybe its just a bug?

[Nosferatus]

weird that we have not heard an official statement from the devs yet, never saw a feature been hated so much by so many players.
It's clear to me it should go.

[Anaris]

...Somehow, I missed this topic completely.

The devs have been quite busy with the Doctrine overhaul and the New Estates lately, but we are starting to look forward again, and we are beginning discussions about some possible overhauls of TMP.  We recognize that it's far from perfect, and we did tweak it a few months ago, but it may need further tweakage, or a complete replacement.

[Nosferatus]

...Somehow, I missed this topic completely.

The devs have been quite busy with the Doctrine overhaul and the New Estates lately, but we are starting to look forward again, and we are beginning discussions about some possible overhauls of TMP.  We recognize that it's far from perfect, and we did tweak it a few months ago, but it may need further tweakage, or a complete replacement.

I'd say lets just try without for a while.
Perhaps there is no need for it.

if nothing changes in two/three months, reinstall a modified version of the TMP we have now, test it for 3 months also and compare again.

We won't see major outbreaks of war in case of sucses but rather a change in how diplomacy is handled by some.

[Chenier]

Maybe its just a bug?

Doubt it. The way I understand the system works, it disadvantages small realms since they can't have large battles as easily to stave it off. 2500 CS is peanuts to most realms, but to small realms, that's a third of our total forces. And since we are small, we are picking on smaller targets. And since they are small, any military disorder on their part translates into battles being very small, with less than 1500 CS on their side (and Nothoi was very, *very* bad).

Also, a bug prevented us from doing the looting we had gone to Nothoi to do, forcing us to return for a refit and only being able to loot once on the last turn.

If Astrums had not had any battles except what we've had this last month, then I could understand them getting told they should go pick bigger fights. But in small realms? Every man counts even in the small skirmishes against rogues.

[Indirik]

And since we are small...

FWIW - Your BT realm is not considered "small" by the code. Therefore you don't get the small realm protections built into the TMP code.

Also FWIW - The dev team is currently considering a major overhaul to the TMP system. (Yes, we know there are some problems with it.) If we do overhaul it, then it won't happen until after New Estates is running on Live servers. (Tom currently has functional code for New Estates on the Dev server that is being tested now.)

[Phellan]

Guess it would be too much to ask for you guys to pull the TMP script until you overhaul it eh?

[Anaris]

Guess it would be too much to ask for you guys to pull the TMP script until you overhaul it eh?

There is no "TMP script."  TMP code exists in multiple places in several scripts.