Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[Indirik]

Yeah, it is a crappy situation. But they'll have to make do with what they have. They've been isolationists and loners for years. Now it's finally caught up with them.

[Bedwyr]

Send those Fissoan troops up to help fight the hordes north of PeL.  Even 3K could do good work, you'd get TMP reduced, and you have an IC rationale with the alliance talks with Luria ("We help on the crusades, you help with Madina...").

[egamma]

You could send 1k CS. after the battle, have the remaining 2k CS train like crazy. when the 1k (whatever's left of it) returns, have the 2k (hopefully better than that) go on the attack, while the 1k army recruits up. Between the two armies you should be able to avoid TMP, and you won't have to throw away ALL your army on the first attack.

TMP still hitting too much? Split your army into 3, and keep them constantly rotating.

Does this go against everything that Sun Tzu teaches in the Art of War? yes. But this is the song and dance you must perform.

[Chenier]

You could send 1k CS. after the battle, have the remaining 2k CS train like crazy. when the 1k (whatever's left of it) returns, have the 2k (hopefully better than that) go on the attack, while the 1k army recruits up. Between the two armies you should be able to avoid TMP, and you won't have to throw away ALL your army on the first attack.

TMP still hitting too much? Split your army into 3, and keep them constantly rotating.

Does this go against everything that Sun Tzu teaches in the Art of War? yes. But this is the song and dance you must perform.

Splitting one's forces is particularily problematic when sieges are involved.

[egamma]

Unit Status Report   (just in)
Your men are loudly complaining about being marched so far from their homes, and their morale is dropping.
Your men desert en bloc, leaving you alone! The traitors even attack and tie you, then take all of your gold! Word of your bad leadership spreads and your honour drops one point.

There goes 600+ gold...and I would gladly have fought any monsters or undead I had ran into.

I had paid them the day before if you're curious.

[Jens Namtrah]

Unit Status Report   (just in)
Your men are loudly complaining about being marched so far from their homes, and their morale is dropping.
Your men desert en bloc, leaving you alone! The traitors even attack and tie you, then take all of your gold! Word of your bad leadership spreads and your honour drops one point.

There goes 600+ gold...and I would gladly have fought any monsters or undead I had ran into.

I had paid them the day before if you're curious.

Give yourself a good kick - it's completely your own foolishness.

You need to use mercenary settings, stop by friendly cities for a little R&R, and pay attention to morale and damage. Just like anywhere else, under any other circumstances.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Give yourself a good kick - it's completely your own foolishness.

You need to use mercenary settings, stop by friendly cities for a little R&R, and pay attention to morale and damage. Just like anywhere else, under any other circumstances.

I think he was saying that TMP caused the morale to plummet. Even with Mercenary settings, more than likely.

[Jens Namtrah]

I think he was saying that TMP caused the morale to plummet. Even with Mercenary settings, more than likely.

I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.

You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.

Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.

[fodder]

morale, cohesion, all drop to zip, heh. he's a trader, so merc as standard

[Nosferatus]

I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.

You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.

Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.

It isn't that easy if you don't want to just declare war on someone.
For Fissoa for example, due to TMP it can send to little to attack candiels, so it won't see any battles there.
If there was no tmp, there could be a battle.
But alas, winter is coming, there should be enough to fight.

This is not whining it's just pointing out where the game fails.
BM is a beta game where a whole comunity thinks together on how to improve it.
Rather constructive if you ask me.

[Phellan]

I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.

You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.

Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.

Again Jens, TMP is the reason we don't have more war.

You think Madina is sitting in the Tower for fun?  It's because our allies cant come help us because of TMP reducing their armies to nothing.    I've spent weeks trying to get allies and people in to help us fight (and to ensure certain Realms won't join in - which is just as important).

2-3 weeks ago I had the potential for a 25K vs 20K battle royale - all I needed was a bit of time and for Madina to get a siege workshop.   Now I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs because of TMP effects hoping to gods that we can keep TMP away until Fissoa is ready to fight again since they will not be fielding 10-12KCS like we need them too.

I should NOT have to be worrying about TMP effects during a freaking war.  Nor should TMP make it impossible for another Realm to fight.

The system is BROKEN.   Plain and simple.

You want people to fight - I will say what I said to start with - you encourage them to do it.  TMP has ONLY EVER STOPPED FIGHTING -- ruin regions, ruin armies -- thats not motivation to fight, that's motivation to fix regions or train units.   People inherently do not want to fight a war when they are at a disadvantage yet that's exactly what TMP does.   Fighting for TMP always been to PREVENT !@#$ from happening.   No one wants to fight anymore because it's fun - we end up fighting because we have too.    That is the exact mentality that has developed in the last few years with TMP and that's a serious problem

Encourage people, reward them, give them a good damn reason to fight.   Because you'll get screwed over by TMP is not motivation, never has been, and never will be.   Basic basic basic conditioning principles - punishment is extremely ineffective and leads to unintended and undesirable results.    Rewards are extremely effective, and when presented in a consistent manner (with random rewards attached) becomes exceptionally addictive and compelling.

TMP currently does not encourage fighting.  It encourages avoiding TMP (which is what we see - fight monsters, fight small battles, avoid TMP) and just pisses off players whose realms and plans get screwed - then we bitch on the forums and that just upsets the hardworking dev's.   No one is happy at the end of the day -.-

   I can't fight a war, I can't encourage players to stay, and I have only TWO bad options left now because of TMP.   Attack Candiels with a vastly smaller force against a fortified city (lose) OR leave my Capital exposed and march 15K of troops through a neutral Realm which would then  (along with it's 2 allies) attack Madina as a result.   Yup.  Brilliant plans either way - if I wanted to destroy my realm . . or my option is to stop fighting and go back to fighting beasts to avoid TMP.

Woot.   Excellent options all around.   Was this because of another Realm or players it'd be fine.  But it's HIGHLY aggravating coming from game coding and programming.

I have done less fighting since TMP came out combined than I did in my two years of BM on either FEI and SEI.   I came to Dwilight with some 430 honour and 49-50 Prestige.   That was what 3-4 years ago?  since then I've only gained minimal honour and lost prestige.   The rest of my Characters have fared the same - the majority of their stats are from pre-TMP time, despite attempts to join warring realms and to get fights going.   There have only been two significant changes since Dwilight came in - TMP and Estates - both of which a large amount of player base has argued had serious flaws.

I don't think the player base is wrong in either case.   I think the changes to estates going into effect will be excellent and help return some focus to warring and battles - hopefully some changes can be made after to TMP to return the focus to wars as well.

Of course, there is an Irony here, considering that SEI and SWI were sunk - but those islands had some of the most fun I had outside of Nighthelm and Dwilight.   And really Nighthelm was just a giant war machine.

[Jens Namtrah]

Again Jens, TMP is the reason we don't have more war.

You think Madina is sitting in the Tower for fun?  It's because our allies cant come help us because of TMP reducing their armies to nothing.    I've spent weeks trying to get allies and people in to help us fight (and to ensure certain Realms won't join in - which is just as important).

2-3 weeks ago I had the potential for a 25K vs 20K battle royale - all I needed was a bit of time and for Madina to get a siege workshop.   Now I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs because of TMP effects hoping to gods that we can keep TMP away until Fissoa is ready to fight again since they will not be fielding 10-12KCS like we need them too.

I should NOT have to be worrying about TMP effects during a freaking war.  Nor should TMP make it impossible for another Realm to fight.

The system is BROKEN.   Plain and simple.

You want people to fight - I will say what I said to start with - you encourage them to do it.  TMP has ONLY EVER STOPPED FIGHTING -- ruin regions, ruin armies -- thats not motivation to fight, that's motivation to fix regions or train units.   People inherently do not want to fight a war when they are at a disadvantage yet that's exactly what TMP does.   Fighting for TMP always been to PREVENT !@#$ from happening.   No one wants to fight anymore because it's fun - we end up fighting because we have too.    That is the exact mentality that has developed in the last few years with TMP and that's a serious problem

Encourage people, reward them, give them a good damn reason to fight.   Because you'll get screwed over by TMP is not motivation, never has been, and never will be.   Basic basic basic conditioning principles - punishment is extremely ineffective and leads to unintended and undesirable results.    Rewards are extremely effective, and when presented in a consistent manner (with random rewards attached) becomes exceptionally addictive and compelling.

TMP currently does not encourage fighting.  It encourages avoiding TMP (which is what we see - fight monsters, fight small battles, avoid TMP) and just pisses off players whose realms and plans get screwed - then we bitch on the forums and that just upsets the hardworking dev's.   No one is happy at the end of the day -.-

   I can't fight a war, I can't encourage players to stay, and I have only TWO bad options left now because of TMP.   Attack Candiels with a vastly smaller force against a fortified city (lose) OR leave my Capital exposed and march 15K of troops through a neutral Realm which would then  (along with it's 2 allies) attack Madina as a result.   Yup.  Brilliant plans either way - if I wanted to destroy my realm . . or my option is to stop fighting and go back to fighting beasts to avoid TMP.

Woot.   Excellent options all around.   Was this because of another Realm or players it'd be fine.  But it's HIGHLY aggravating coming from game coding and programming.

I have done less fighting since TMP came out combined than I did in my two years of BM on either FEI and SEI.   I came to Dwilight with some 430 honour and 49-50 Prestige.   That was what 3-4 years ago?  since then I've only gained minimal honour and lost prestige.   The rest of my Characters have fared the same - the majority of their stats are from pre-TMP time, despite attempts to join warring realms and to get fights going.   There have only been two significant changes since Dwilight came in - TMP and Estates - both of which a large amount of player base has argued had serious flaws.

I don't think the player base is wrong in either case.   I think the changes to estates going into effect will be excellent and help return some focus to warring and battles - hopefully some changes can be made after to TMP to return the focus to wars as well.

Of course, there is an Irony here, considering that SEI and SWI were sunk - but those islands had some of the most fun I had outside of Nighthelm and Dwilight.   And really Nighthelm was just a giant war machine.

You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier,  or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.

The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP.  We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.

We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.

That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.

[Nosferatus]

You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier,  or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.

The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP.  We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.

We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.

That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.

Sorry but i have to completly disagree.

I get where your heading, but your in the wrong place.
This is BM, we are a community and we express our opinions.
Your saying we should stop that and just let the devs and Tom do everything them selves.

your right that Tom wanted to implement TMP to increase wars, but it simply didn't.
Many of us would say it even reduced the amount of battles and wars.

But thats what's BM is all about: trial and error.
We try something, discuss it and then improve, modify or remove it based on the results.
The whole point of it is to have things fail so we learn and move foward(beyond the known horizons of gaming).
Because we stupid humans can only come to innovation or change in this way.

and btw guys, a good way around tmp is to TO a rogue region every week.
If you do it right, you let the region go rogue immediately after the TO so you can TO the same region over and over again.
perhaps handy untill things have changed.


And btw, leadership can change in game, tmp not, so whos whining now?
Go and change it.

[Shenron]

Yes can we please turn this into a TMP rant. (disclaimer: please don't mind the language I'm very frustrated) IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO FIX TMP THEN LETS JUST GET !@#$ING RID OF IT.

Sorry. This is just silly. Ok I know it sounds lovely to "get creative" but when can we just drop the act and admit this is quite silly? Before I write a page of reasons why TMP should be turfed (or changed completely) lets begin with this: is it not dramatic example of how bad Tmp is when it prevents realms from fighting effectively.

You should have plopped down a lot of militia

Militia gets affected by tmp...

That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.

And Fissoa? We've recently got a cool new government where it's official policy to share nothing behind closed doors. Are we being punished too? Actually lets just punish everyone for existing. Cool.

EDIT:

And I'll just say this, too, because someone has to say it: GDoF has been sitting on its ass for *years* doing nothing. Never fighting any meaningful war with anyone. Now when TMP penalties finally hit, it's suddenly TMP's fault that they can't attack anyone? That's a load of crap. < Shenron's head actually pops at this point.

TMP is obviously not perfect. But it's also not the reason that certain realms aren't fighting.

Rob I would love to tear off your testicles right now.

Since you don't have a character in this realm, I guess I can't blame you for being ignorant of the fact that we are trying pretty damn hard to get stuff organized and just as we are about to send a a pretty sexy force over the channel, TMP makes everything useless. Let me tell you first hand, I am not exaggerating when I say that TMP is the sole reason that we now can't fight Aurvandil. Our armies are for once, a decent size, with a decent activity and organization, and then TMP knocks us flat on our faces.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the newbs (who we have been cultivating for a while) leave because of this crap.

And yes I am angry.

[Shizzle]

My character was elected Grand Duke in Fissoa not very long ago. I'll just tell you of my experience within the realm.

I joined BM a few years ago. My first character wasn't very enjoyable, but my second was. After a short period in Myern (until it's downfall) I joined Fissoa. And I have never regret it.

In the beginning, things were quite static. The Ruler and Duke position were solid, politics were lame. Region Lords rarely changed, and little communication occured. Apart from the permanent cold war with PeL, nothing ever happened, really. I'm unsure how many players Fissoa had a long time ago, but when I joined the realm was probably doing pretty bad, and things kept going worse. There was a time where we had maybe 12 players for 9 regions.

Ever since I joined, I have invested time and effort to spice things up. The Fissoa Verminators were an example, as well as the great discussions I had with Shenron. Slowly I managed to acquire a certain standing within the realm, and ever since, I've been trying to revert the bad developements within the realm.

The High Command was abolished, the government structure reformed, the Verminators started, armies reorganised (though perhaps not very succesfully), ties make, changed or weakened, a new body of laws and so on. To the outside world it might seem nothing every happens in Fissoa, but I must contest this. We've been working to create a better environment within the realm, with more cooperation and more things going on.

And now, all of that is threatened by TMP.

I wouldn't love anything more than to lead an army against Candiels, D'Hara, the Astroist realms or wherever. But we are simply unable to do so - and if we would ever be, it would be because we'd circumvent TMP (such as by raiding rogue lands, the 'fake TO' as suggested by Nosferatus, ...). That's just lame.

Fissoa has limited options, being bordered by two realms of which one is our long-standing ally, and the other is a newly discovered friend. I simply refuse to get rid of all of that history, tradition and effort just because we are hit by TMP. All we can really do is send an army against Aurvandil, but it is exactly TMP that is keeping us from advancing.

Nonetheless, we are trying hard to get something going. It is just very difficult and slow to do so, thanks to TMP. I'm not going to give up just yet, but slowly frustrations are building up - I can really feel Shenron here.

TMP breaks immersion, prevents wars, and is not fun. I can understand the ideas behind it, and they certainly have or had merit, but for as far as I can see, it totally misses it's goal at the moment. Perhaps a revision could fix these issues, but until they are resolved, I strongly suggest we get rid of it, at least temporarily.

Edit: I am aware Fissoa doesn't have the most sexy reputation in Dwilight, let alone in Battlemaster. But I've been trying to change that, honestly. There is a reason I fly Fissoan colours under my forum name: I love the realm. Without it, I wouldn't be in BM anymore.