The Current War

[Geronus]

Fair point though, from your characters point of view, those reasons you gave were valid. In the same way that I was able to respond with why my character would believe them to be unfair reasons. At the end of the day, it shows exactly why we are at War

Indeed, that seems to be the crux of it.

[Silverfire]

Unfortunately, Eston chose a course in the war that greatly increased the likelihood of CE winning. And you can't entirely blame Darka for stalling the war. Eston *knew* that Darka wouldn't attack Talerium, yet still chose to sign a treaty with Coria that specifically excluded any other course. You had to know that this would piss off everyone.

This agreement was in place before the war began, and it was returned to its former condition after the war was ended for Coria. Makes sense enough to me.

Anyway, what was the part of the agreement that was supposed to declare certain lands off limits?

...

All I know is what Darka did. From our point of view, we didn't break the agreement. (If you discount the two accidental battles.) From what I know of the agreement, once Tara entered Eston lands, that constitutes Tara attacking, and opened up Corian lands for attacks on Tara. The agreement did not require any notification.

Honestly, did Darka's ruler ever actually show your realm the agreement word for word? Or your realm council for that matter? Specific regions were named that could be used to attack CE. (Essentially every single Corian region which could possibly be used to reach CE, with the exception of our capitol. The duchy of Barad Gardor however was off limits, one simple reason being it was no where near CE, and we would starve if more troops were walking through there.)

The agreement also stated that whoever broke the peace between Hammarsett and Coria would have the entirety of the northern alliance turned against them in retribution for breaking such peace. Seeing as Hammarsett attacked and declared war on Coria, I am surprised that the honorable northern realms aren't honoring their agreement to attack Hammarsett now? Of course, this probably wouldn't do much to help their war effort, but who cares about agreements when you gain more benefit by breaking them?

[Geronus]

The agreement also stated that whoever broke the peace between Hammarsett and Coria would have the entirety of the northern alliance turned against them in retribution for breaking such peace. Seeing as Hammarsett attacked and declared war on Coria, I am surprised that the honorable northern realms aren't honoring their agreement to attack Hammarsett now? Of course, this probably wouldn't do much to help their war effort, but who cares about agreements when you gain more benefit by breaking them?

Even I didn't know that, and you'd think I would be aware of something so important. Regulus never mentioned that little tidbit to me. This thing really needed to be written down somewhere, as complicated as it apparently is, but as far as I know it never was (seriously, where can I get a copy?). I definitely don't know everything that's in it. I think Coria and Eston are the only realms that ever took it very seriously. The treaty was hollow from the beginning though, as it completely ignores a significant number of hard realities. It just wasn't sustainable. It probably should have never been signed in the first place, at least not by anyone other than Eston and Coria. I certainly never would have agreed to it had I been the one in charge at the time, not unless the other northern rulers were united in trying to jam it down my throat. Given each of their feelings about it though, I doubt this would have been the case.

[Munro]

I always wondered, though, why the peace treaty wasn't officially declared

Ask your own Rulers the answer to that one, they were the ones who refused to sign an official one.

I certainly never would have agreed to it had I been the one in charge at the time,

Why do you think the treaty wasn't officially signed in the first place? Darka and BoM wanted access to the CE, we gave them that and so they were happy (this must be before the Northerners realised those funny spikey things on the map were mountains). Regulus however wanted Corian land, which was point blank refused as the general attitude of Hammarsett at the start of the War was extremely vulture-ish. As a result of this, the Northern realms refused to sign an official peace with us, but were happy to have an unofficial one in place as long as it suited them.

So yeah, the reason an official peace wasn't signed was because of Hammarsett. I stated that an unofficial one was a bad idea, however I was then accused of war mongering and when I stated an unofficial one (not written into game mechanics) held no weight I was promised by the Northerners and by Kostaja that whoever broke the peace would have the entire might of the North to deal with, using the exact words Merlin pointed out. Surprise surprise this didn't materialise at any point when Hammarsett kept breaking the treaty.

[Geronus]

Why do you think the treaty wasn't officially signed in the first place? Darka and BoM wanted access to the CE, we gave them that and so they were happy (this must be before the Northerners realised those funny spikey things on the map were mountains). Regulus however wanted Corian land, which was point blank refused as the general attitude of Hammarsett at the start of the War was extremely vulture-ish. As a result of this, the Northern realms refused to sign an official peace with us, but were happy to have an unofficial one in place as long as it suited them.

So yeah, the reason an official peace wasn't signed was because of Hammarsett. I stated that an unofficial one was a bad idea, however I was then accused of war mongering and when I stated an unofficial one (not written into game mechanics) held no weight I was promised by the Northerners and by Kostaja that whoever broke the peace would have the entire might of the North to deal with, using the exact words Merlin pointed out. Surprise surprise this didn't materialise at any point when Hammarsett kept breaking the treaty.

Ahahahaha! 'Unofficial'? What a crock! If I had been around at the time, I would likely have focused on simply convincing Sordnaz and Kostaja that there was no point to them signing anything. Which is in fact true. There wasn't, and as you pointed out earlier, they didn't ultimately honor the terms themselves. Eston wants a treaty, Eston gets a treaty. There was no reason for any of the rest of us to go along with it, which is ultimately why it didn't last - it didn't make any sense, and was highly inconvenient to boot, especially once Tara started throwing its weight around more.

[Munro]

Ahahahaha! 'Unofficial'? What a crock! If I had been around at the time, I would likely have focused on simply convincing Sordnaz and Kostaja that there was no point to them signing anything. Which is in fact true. There wasn't, and as you pointed out earlier, they didn't ultimately honor the terms themselves. Eston wants a treaty, Eston gets a treaty. There was no reason for any of the rest of us to go along with it, which is ultimately why it didn't last - it didn't make any sense, and was highly inconvenient to boot, especially once Tara started throwing its weight around more.

You make it sound like you were doing Coria a favour! Don't make me laugh! Coria was completely protected by Eston, on top of which you had no access to the CE! We didn't even need to agree to the unofficial stuff because we were safe already. What we should have done, was keep the peace with Eston and then destroy Hammarsett. Darka wouldn't have been able to do diddly squat according to the terms of the official peace treaty. The only reason we agreed to the unofficial stuff...the stuff you call a crock, was to make things easier with Eston and her allies.

There was no reason for any of the rest of us to go along with it, which is ultimately why it didn't last

The majority of the North wouldn't have been able to reach the CE or Coria without that unofficial treaty which lasted for a few months. So how do you figure that one out? You had no military access. All we wanted was a 1v1 fight against Hammarsett, but your friends wouldn't agree to it. The only reason you've been able to break the unofficial treaty is because Eston has broke the official one we had as well.

This War has always been pitched as a justified one to stop the so called big bad CE who boss everyone around. At least they are honourable, which is much more than can be said about most Northern realms, who are full of mercenaries or vikings...and Hammards, who are more annoying than any real threat. I've never seen so many nobles captured by a bunch of Militia. That was extremely amusing. 

[Indirik]

Ugh. Not this again. How all the Darkans somehow think that Darka refusing to attack Talerium so that their own realm won't come under any fire but at the same time accusing Eston of being weak or stupid for doing the exact same thing is really annoying.

Mostly because you *knew* what the situation was before you signed the treaty. You knew that Darka would not go through Talerium. Yet you signed the peace anyway. And *then* you immediately started complaining about the fact that Darka wouldn't march through Talerium. It's like sticking your hand into the fire, and then getting pissed at the fire because you got burned. You knew you'd get burned, but you did it anyway. So you only have yourself to blame for it.

[Silverfire]

and Hammards, who are more annoying than any real threat. I've never seen so many nobles captured by a bunch of Militia. That was extremely amusing. 

Haha, that was truly hilarious. Just goes to show Coria has the best militia anywhere, or by the same logic Hammarsett has the worst nobles? I guess we'll go with the first one.

P.S> I don't know why I keep commenting on this thread from the perspective of a ruler of Coria. You're doing just fine on your own. lol

[Indirik]

Honestly, did Darka's ruler ever actually show your realm the agreement word for word? Or your realm council for that matter? Specific regions were named that could be used to attack CE. (Essentially every single Corian region which could possibly be used to reach CE, with the exception of our capitol. The duchy of Barad Gardor however was off limits, one simple reason being it was no where near CE, and we would starve if more troops were walking through there.)

I know that there was one that Eston signed, or wanted to sign, that KK flat out refused to sign. After that, I didn't see any sign of any official agreement. I don't suppose you have a copy anywhere that you could provide?

The agreement also stated that whoever broke the peace between Hammarsett and Coria would have the entirety of the northern alliance turned against them in retribution for breaking such peace.

OK, I'm almost 100% positive that these terms your talking about are in the version of the agreement that pretty much every northern realm refused to sign, except perhaps for Eston. I can guarantee that Darka, for one refused to sign the agreement that had those terms in it, and I fairly positive that the Barony choked on those terms as well. I think that if you're going to claim that all the northern realms agreed to this treaty, you're going to have to provide some proof.

[Munro]

People are getting confused. The treaty Eston signed with Coria was basically a peace treaty with the added clauses that NO realm would pass through Eston to attack Coria and that Coria would allow no realm to attack Eston.

In the Corian-Eston treaty, the North had no access to the CE other than Talerium. There was no mention of the other Northern realms whatsoever in our original peace treaty. It was only later, when Eston's allies began to complain that we verbally confirmed that they could use specific regions which were highlighted, made crystal clear, and confirmed. These as Merlin states were pretty much Belegmon and the adjoining regions to the CE. As a clause and because Saeculo hates Hammarsett, they had no permission to enter any Corian region whatsoever.

So the unofficial agreement which was made benefited the Northern realms HUGELY. Before that agreement was made, you had an extremely limited access.

Then because we were being reasonable, it was suggested that because of the new peace signed between Eston and Coria, that the other Northern realms should follow suit. The only demands from BoM and Darka was Military access to the CE which we granted and so made them happy enough to sign peace, however because Hammarsett wanted land and I was being accused of stalling because I wouldn't grant them this, the North suggested that they would become neutral as long as they had an unofficial treaty and the situation with Hammarsett would be worked out later.

OK, I'm almost 100% positive that these terms your talking about are in the version of the agreement that pretty much every northern realm refused to sign, except perhaps for Eston. I can guarantee that Darka, for one refused to sign the agreement that had those terms in it

Again, you're getting things mixed up. There was no official agreement even discussed as Hammarsett had derailed it and the North was eager to crack on against the CE. I was not happy and pointed out what many others have here that it was less than optimal not to have something in writing or at least peace signed rather than just neutrality between our realms. It was because of this that KK himself stated "whoever broke the peace between Hammarsett and Coria would have the entirety of the northern alliance turned against them in retribution for breaking such peace".

I don't know how you want me to prove it as it was said in letters. But I'm not exactly going to lie about it am I? I'm pretty sure Perth can confirm this as can KK or Sordnaz if they use the forums. I was definitely guaranteed that the North would punish either Coria or Hammarsett should one of them sidetrack the main fight which was supposed to be the CE if either realm broke the agreement, which Hammarsett did on multiple occasions without any consequence.

[^ban^]

OK, I'm almost 100% positive that these terms your talking about are in the version of the agreement that pretty much every northern realm refused to sign, except perhaps for Eston. I can guarantee that Darka, for one refused to sign the agreement that had those terms in it, and I fairly positive that the Barony choked on those terms as well. I think that if you're going to claim that all the northern realms agreed to this treaty, you're going to have to provide some proof.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is the treaty that Sordnaz's entire advisory council was against signing because of that crap. We were against that one, and we were against that terrible !@#$ing joke that was the Eston-Coria peace treaty.

[Munro]

Unless I'm mistaken, this is the treaty that Sordnaz's entire advisory council was against signing because of that crap.

It doesn't even make sense that you guys thought that was part of a suggested peace treaty. The only reason this was suggested...by KK himself no less, was because we couldn't agree on an actual peace treaty and it was said as an assurance that we could trust the word of the North to honour it even though it wasn't put down in writing.

The reason it wasn't put down in writing was because Coria was accused of stalling, and the Northern realms didn't want to sit down and attempt to negotiate the land issue with Coria and Hammarsett in case they lost any momentum with the CE. I'm extremely glad that the CE is still going as strong as ever.

 

[Perth]

We were against that one, and we were against that terrible !@#$ing joke that was the Eston-Coria peace treaty.

Of course you were. Your ass isn't on the line in any way shape or form. This whole conflict is one big fun, goat riding raid for the Barony. They'll never suffer no matter the out come of it.

[Silverfire]

Of course you were. Your ass isn't on the line in any way shape or form. This whole conflict is one big fun, goat riding raid for the Barony. They'll never suffer no matter the out come of it.

+1

I think this shows 100% the difference between Darka and BoM, in comparison with Eston and Coria in this conflict. Hammarsett and MI are slightly different because each had a clear choice of whether the war may or may not be fought on their borders.

[Geronus]

The majority of the North wouldn't have been able to reach the CE or Coria without that unofficial treaty which lasted for a few months. So how do you figure that one out? You had no military access. All we wanted was a 1v1 fight against Hammarsett, but your friends wouldn't agree to it. The only reason you've been able to break the unofficial treaty is because Eston has broke the official one we had as well.

How do you figure? If they hadn't agreed to anything, as they should have done IMO, they could have marched through Coria anytime they damn well pleased, and you know you wouldn't have been able to stop them. It's not like you were before. You make it sound like the North needed your permission. That they most emphatically did not, seeing as they had already demonstrated repeatedly that Coria wasn't much more than CE's doormat. The agreement, official or unofficial, never really benefited anyone but Eston and Coria. The North did do you a favor, by letting you largely get away with that. Just think - all this time, your regions haven't been continually burned to the ground, you've had time to rebuild from when we did burn your regions to the ground, but all you've been able to do is complain loudly and shrilly about it whenever a Northern army does cross your territory, even when they're playing by your little rules. Get real! It could have been ten times worse. If Saeculo hadn't been such an arrogant bastard about the agreement it might have lasted longer, but I think almost everyone got tired of him constantly using it to browbeat people with. Frankly, we just stopped taking him seriously. It's like you went out of your way to rub it in everyone's face that you could. Surprise! We said 'screw this, we don't have to take this anymore'. That's when we pretty much started doing whatever we pleased.