Adventurers No Longer Using Scrolls - Discussion

[Lefanis]

It's just that BM design does not fit it's current playerbase. Especially on BT. And we're all screwed by this but I am certain that taking away from people is only going to make this worse.

This. Currently, BT is slowly stagnating away, a shell of what it was- in my view for a variety of reasons, including the blighted map and lower playerbase- desperately in need of fixing somehow. PvP wars aren't likely to happen for IRL years, if the remaining player base sticks around through the exercise of masochism that is grinding against the "density" monsters and dead- both on BT and Dwilight.

In this case, many dozens of players thus went through the trouble of collecting these scrolls, and created the most significant event that has been seen in months on the continent- since this density invasion began at least. Again, players- not manual intervention through portals, making it that much more important- and yes, the effects were devastating, and the fact that 8-9 advies did the castings can be debated- however this was precisely what was envisioned with the scrolls - I distinctly recall them being referred to as mechanisms to have player controlled invasions.

Instead of recognising these things, both on discord and the forum, the players involved were accused of ooc coordination, exploitation and bug abuse. I am not even going to bother with the coordination BS, but since I heard the bug abuse come up multiple times- and apparently the bug is advies using scrolls- How can there be bug abuse when no one knows this is a bug? How can it be bug abuse when one of the game's chief devs himself doesn't agree it was a bug? Meanwhile, these allegations get thrown around freely and flippantly. I thought that part of the social contract is not to publicly accuse anyone of cheating and abuses?

The underlying problem here is that BT and Dwilight are now nothing more than grinds against monster/undead hordes. I somehow don't think this is part of Tom's vision for the game either- and yes, perhaps that is a symptom of the declining player base, who are all desperately trying to make do in these circumstances. Instead of throwing accusations at folks playing a game, it would be nice if there was a proper discussion on how to fix the game in a way that brings people to it instead of driving them away.

Based on the many discussions on discord, people are not short on ideas on how to do this- I personally think bringing back a resettable SI is the best thing that can happen short term. However, what has happened to BT and Dwi cannot be ignored either- and I think there needs to be an open discussion with the players at large to figure out what we can do together for these two worlds, and what players would be happy to see happen to this islands to make them fun again.

[steelabjur@aol.com]

Dear Vita,

I am all fine if due to the complaints of one player group game rules get changed but then please not to the disadvantage of another group. I am not sure if you realised but post-event that you took away the commoner’s ability to cast scrolls, the player of Josiah goes around and celebrates your seed as his god’s deed and being therefore supported against the others IC. I am not sure if this is the play between friends we all want but so be it.

Now, since the commoners were not able to continue the attack and suddenly all critically/seriously wounded chars including the judge in Bara’Khur got the “ok” status in the middle of the a turn (that must have been also an intervention as this is other wise impossible, right?) this gave them the advantage to execute my commoner who again got caught from a char that got unpaused (before the intervention). Whether the unpausing was intentional or not, I can’t say and I won’t comment further. I also do not know if there more interventions to help Bara’Khur in their situation they are (or were).

I this ask you to revive my commoner as well as well as all other commoners (Giovanni, Samuel) who got caught in case they will be executed as well. Otherwise it is clear that the GM helped one player to execute the char of one other. See, chars can heal, walls can be rebuilt and regions or realms retaken or refounded. But my char or the one of the other chars once dead, are dead. No return possible there and that is what makes the GM intervention asymmetrical from my point of view and I am sure you can see a reasoning there.

Regarding the general topic whether commoners should be able to cast scrolls, let me outline shortly the view from the other side: In a declining game, I tried to give players a RP that was within the game mech and the rules and which they accepted well and made the realm of Angmar thrive. We are one of the largest realms with a good noble count and the best commoner count (till now). We work together on a RP which we enjoy a lot, part of that are training missions for the commoners. Wudenkin was the master exam in spellcasting for some of them. To make the long story short: they are no weapons as it is said in here. They are all independent chars with their own will. They could have done something else if they want it. A weapon is something that is without own will and gets fired when used. A scroll is a weapon. A commoner is a char.

Thank you for your time to read this lines.

Max Mustermann

Max cannot currently log onto the forums, and asked that I pass this message along.

[Witch-king]

Max cannot currently log onto the forums, and asked that I pass this message along.

I logged in in the meantime and created a new account, thanks for the forwarding. I even had time to correct some spelling errors from the original message and put some more thought into it. 🤣

[steelabjur@aol.com]

I just want to say that:

1. I never heard of Adventurers using scrolls was a bug. Ever. Until this event.

2. I, or any player with a noble that has high spellcasting, could waltz over to Bara’Khur loaded with scrolls and do the same thing that these adventurers did, and you could neither arrest the noble to stop it, nor execute them. You couldn't even get a ban on them.

[Medron Pryde]

I think one important point was made above.

The devs have always said that giving us the scrolls was to force us to attack other players.  Because if we don't, they go off randomly.

So we have a case here of players from one guild getting together and doing exactly that.  Attacking other players in another realm.

They spent months preparing and at least a week actually executing the attack.  This was the greatest player-created event in this game in months.

The first response should not be to call them OOC cheaters and bug abusers.  Especially when the players were never told it was a bug.  And when this same tactic was used months ago against a different realm with no similar response.  Granted, that was in the open field, not citybusting, but it's something to consider.  They exhausted (or at least severely depleted) the supply of scrolls in western BT with exactly the kind of attack we've been told we needed to do by the devs multiple times in the past to keep those scrolls from randomly going off in our own homelands.

If you don't like the results, change how scrolls work.  I'm fine with that.  But don't blame the players for doing exactly what they were told they had to do with the tools they were given to do it with.

That's BS.

PS.  Angmar has been planning and preparing for something exactly like this for months.  Years maybe now?  From the moment he left Nothoi and founded Angmar, he has roleplayed it as a magic using kingdom and has assembled the best collection of nobles and adventurers in a pure mission to gain more scrolls.  I've tried to replicate that, to no real luck let me tell you, in Nothoi at least in some way.  Angmar blasted Gotland with magic attacks during their war a while back.  It was no surprise they could do something like this.  At least not to me.  But then I've been watching.

So when another realm declares themselves to be worshiping the Daimons that Daishi is opposed to?  Don't be surprised when a realm that follows Daishi (especially one that follows a more militant version of Daishi than my character generally preaches) goes ballistic on them.  It's sorta going to happen.

Boom.  Boom today.  Boom tomorrow.  Boom SOMEtime...

Boom.

[Stabbity]

I'm interested in hearing why critically wounded characters were quite suddenly healed. Since we have a policy of not reversing the effects of bugs, and since it adversely affected my character who would not have been executed otherwise.

[steelabjur@aol.com]

I just want to say that:

1. I never heard of Adventurers using scrolls was a bug. Ever. Until this event.

2. I, or any player with a noble that has high spellcasting, could waltz over to Bara’Khur loaded with scrolls and do the same thing that these adventurers did, and you could neither arrest the noble to stop it, nor execute them. You couldn't even get a ban on them.

Also, since somebody brought it up, Angmar and Bara’Khur were not formally at war (I had to check with Max, since my Angmar character is currently in rogue prison  ::)), so a noble from Angmar without a unit could do #2 without fear of arrest or capture, just make sure to target the ruler first so they can't change relations.

[Chenier]

To make the long story short: advies are no weapons as it is said in here. They are all independent chars with their own will.

Right, which basically all belong the players who also have nobles in Angmar. Totally independant. They just spawned in whatever realms they spawned in, and then decided to go to Angmar specifically, because they are completely independent and had a completely independent urge to go join the player's other noble characters. The only advy I'm aware of that was involved, but that didn't have a noble in Angmar, was one who belonged to a player who is known to collaborate with the rest of these players everywhere else.

No, bull on "independant chars with their own free will". We got rid of 2 nobles per continent because one tended to just be a drone and most players would use them as a unit. But those days are not gone. People do the exact same thing with adventurers now. Using them as weapons of war for their noble character's realm. Advies are the new alts.

[Witch-king]

Right, which basically all belong the players who also have nobles in Angmar. Totally independant. They just spawned in whatever realms they spawned in, and then decided to go to Angmar specifically, because they are completely independent and had a completely independent urge to go join the player's other noble characters. The only advy I'm aware of that was involved, but that didn't have a noble in Angmar, was one who belonged to a player who is known to collaborate with the rest of these players everywhere else.

No, bull on "independant chars with their own free will". We got rid of 2 nobles per continent because one tended to just be a drone and most players would use them as a unit. But those days are not gone. People do the exact same thing with adventurers now. Using them as weapons of war for their noble character's realm. Advies are the new alts.

You are more bitter than my Witch-king could ever be - and oh boy he can be bitter.

I do not think insinuations and OOC attacks like these on other players will bring us forward in this.

I want to publically thank Vita for his sincere reply that I received via Abjur as OOC message I game.

But as Stabbity says,  I still think that the executed chars Khamul and Giovanni should be revived in order to balance the effects of the GM intervention.

The rest is history for me as wise men say...