15 Nobles! 15!!!!

[Greybrook]

As one of the founding players of Tol Goldora, people came from all over the place. We would not of had the chance to demonstrate the colony idea with 15 nobles. While I understand the reasoning behind a ruling - we all want to be in active realms who can have a decent noble hierarchy and army, the number either needs to come down or dynamic based on realm size.

I am also more than happy to act as a soundboard for changes - I cannot code alas.

[De-Legro]

Yes.

Under the new rules, the players would need to start up their new characters in the sponsoring realm.  Sol in the case of Tol Goldura.

They would make themselves knights of the duchy in question.  Which means at least 15 estates would need to be established in that duchy for those nobles.  That would constitute 15 estates at 6% share with a single estate of 10% for the duke or city lord.  It would have to be a rich city to give them much income.

I would note that if we are now pushing to have larger realms rather than pushing people to create new realms, we may wish to revisit the penalties visited upon larger realms.  Loss of control and the like.

We are otherwise going to be stuck in the situation of realms being too large to be efficient but too small to break up.  It may end up an unhappy medium for all involved.

Or they would need to have more regions established before hitting the seceded button?

what makes it not possible to have 15 nobles start  new realm, then many of them return home?

Nothing, though some might have RP issues with that. Oaths to a realm are important, to me such action would be similar placeholder lords.

[Anaris]

There should be an exemption.  If a Duke is banned they should have the opportunity to secede no matter what.

That would open up a glaringly obvious loophole: want to found a new realm? Still on good terms with your government? That's OK, have them ban you anyway!

As for the 15 nobles I think 10 might have been a fairer number.  Astrum was founded by 5 or 6 nobles trecking through winter and fighting the hordes to make it to Libidized.

There's a big difference between letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the overall playerbase is healthy, and letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the average realm size is below 20 and there are issues with finding a decent, interesting, and interactive realm wherever you go.

[dustole]

That would open up a glaringly obvious loophole: want to found a new realm? Still on good terms with your government? That's OK, have them ban you anyway!

That's a small price to pay to retain Ducal Power.  Dukes have always had that power.  Taking the power away to allow them to secede is a HUGE power shift.  I understand why you are making the changes, but this changes a very large dynamic to the game.   Being able to secede as Duke is what kept the balance.  If they banned you, good chance you were taking your Duchy with you.


As for having your realm ban you to allow you to secede and form a new realm...   then deal with it on a case by case basis.  If it happens like that people will make a Titan report and it can be dealt with.    What's to stop people from loading a Duchy with nobles and have them trickle back to the main realm after the secession?  Your current rule leaves a loophole too.  How to fix that? Make it against the rules...  the same way to fix the problem with friendly banishments, with a rule.   

Maybe this is all too much work and not worth it.  I understand there are limited resources, but removing so much power from a Duke will.change the dynamic of the game.   

[Foxglove]

I think the 15 nobles threshold to found a new realm is reasonable enough. The game doesn't really need new realms at this stage, anyway. The conversion of Alara to Sydgard shows there are other ways to have fresh starts and try out new things. The same goes for realm mergers. Merge realms and create something new out of the merger (or meld existing cultures to provide a new twist).

New realms founded with a few nobles tend to be vanity projects that some times hit gold, but more often crash and burn.

[Ocean Yong Kiran]

Again I ask - why is there so much desire to make new realms that are small and boring? In real history, if a duke or someone says "Now I am a King!" someone else say "No you are not" and smashes him. Almost never you see this succssion thing happen.

In the game, even worse. No one to talk to. Nothing to do because you are not strong enough to do anything. Boring.

I think make more ways for Duke to try to be King, not more ways for Duke to run away with his ball and only play with his own friends.

[Vita`]

Well as another example, every knight in Obsidian Islands has just turned out to help Perdan fight the entire North. Seems to me their getting to see plenty of action.

But how many engaging messages do they receive in comparison ? The answer is Perdan's received 74 realm-channel messages in the last month while Obsidian Islands has received 6. Would it not be better for them to be part of Perdan's team without having to march through additional lands to participate in the war?

There should be an exemption.  If a Duke is banned they should have the opportunity to secede no matter what.

No. There is no inalienable right to secede. Internal situations as dukes being banned were considered and this is why there is not a requirement for the old realm to have any minimum, so there is flexibility for a realm's nobility to side with the duke and then wage war upon the old realm without keeping them stuck in one realm.

There's a big difference between letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the overall playerbase is healthy, and letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the average realm size is below 20 and there are issues with finding a decent, interesting, and interactive realm wherever you go.

When the playerbase was healthy, generally founding particularly tiny realms did not bode well for one's longevity - there was a natural minimum enforcement. The way I see it, this is replicating that in an environment that can no longer naturally pressure small realms.

That's a small price to pay to retain Ducal Power.  Dukes have always had that power.  Taking the power away to allow them to secede is a HUGE power shift.  I understand why you are making the changes, but this changes a very large dynamic to the game.   Being able to secede as Duke is what kept the balance.  If they banned you, good chance you were taking your Duchy with you.

I'm not sure if dukes have *always* had that power, but certainly as long as you've played, its been true. While the change wasn't about the following at all, dukes *have* been considered overpowered and needing balanced in relation to the rest of the hierarchy for some time. Again, there is no inalienable rights for dukes to do as they please and always get their way. The game is a *team* game, not about particular individuals' getting their way, everyone else can be banned and lose lands too, if they're not prepared or in a bad spot. The changes were made such that if the dukes have the popular support of the realm, they should be able to emerge victorious in any power struggles.

[pcw27]

I'd like to bring this conversation back into consideration. I was looking over the realm lists and it occurred to me that at this time it is impossible for any new realms to form on either Dwilight or East Continent. In both gamer worlds the largest realm on the continent is too small to achieve the 15 player minimum. Ironically nearly half the realms on Dwilight and and over half of the realms on EC have fewer than 15 nobles, and EC features three realms with less than ten.

The supposed benefit of the 15 player limit that's been argued in this thread is that it prevents the formation of small, sparsely populated and uninteresting realms that are alienating to new players, but the idea of this benefit is unfounded. There is no evidence newly founded realms have a greater tendency to remain small, sparsely populated, uninteresting and alienating to new players. The newest realm on Dwilight, founded with only seven nobles is on the cusp of becoming the most populous.

It seems clear to me that a limit of 10 is much more reasonable than 15. I can tell you from experience a ten noble threshold will not make it easy to found a new realm by any stretch of the imagination. It will merely make it possible. Right now the limit of fifteen makes it functionally impossible to form a new realm on two game worlds (and I doubt the others are better off).

If the limit were scaled back to 10 I can say with absolute certainty that we will not see realms popping up all over until the noble populations of the game are dispersed to the four winds. In fact I doubt we will see a single new realm before the end of this year. So what possible reason remains for the limit remain at 15?

[Zakky]

No. 10 noble realms are too small. Even 15 is too small to be honest. Realms need to be at least 20.

I think they are being too generous with 15. I'd suggest raising it to 20.

[pcw27]

But the new realm doesn’t stay at 10 that’s my point. Tol Goldora started with 7 nobles and has 23 now. A realm’s population at its founding has no relation to how many players eventually join it.

The limit does nothing to ensure a desired noble population. All it does is make it functionally impossible to found a new realm. Meanwhile on EC you have several realms with less that 10 players. So where is the benefit? No one can seem to articulate one besides insisting “ten’s too small” as if the noble population of a realm becomes fixed upon its founding. Do you consider it a minor thing that no new realm may ever be founded in Dwilight again?  Are you happy with the fact that in the unlikely event that it does happen it will be a top-down choice by the realm’s elites with other players contributing little more than their opinions to the split?

[Zakky]

The point is to reduce the total number of realms.

I don't know why you want to create more realms when there are plenty of other realms to join.

The game doesn't need more realms. Also there is no guarantee new realms will become large enough.

[pcw27]

So that's the reason now, not noble population but total realm number? If so this is not effective for that either. As it was new realms getting founded was still rare. You prevent maybe one realm from forming every few years while three low population realms are sitting around on EC. If you want fewer realms the solution is to create a mechanism that makes it progressively harder to manage a realm with too few nobles, forcing them to eventually merge or die out.

The reason I care about the creation of new realms remaining a feature of this game is that quite simply, in the dozen years I've been playing Battlemaster, there has been no experience more thrilling or fulfilling than founding a new realm. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this.

Whenever I try to recruit a new player I almost always tell them about the colonizing period of Dwilight. Now, if I'm going to be honest with them I'll have to say "but that can't really happen anymore, maybe someday we'll get enough players...". That's the really sad thing. I got to have my fun but the next generation will probably never know what it's like.

The way you're describing things right now sounds like a very disappointing vision for the future of this game. If we eliminate the possibility for new realms then what happens to the old ones? One way or another they merge or get conquered until various existing mechanisms render further consolidation impossible. You'll reach a point where for all intents and purposes a realm can neither be created nor destroyed. So the whole game becomes fixed, stagnant. A few regions can change hands but there will be no serious consequences. The greatest draw of this game, the ability to create history becomes a thing of the past. It would no longer be a player controlled world because everything of consequence wont be under player control, it will be derived directly from the game mechanics.

[Abstract]

"Tol Goldora started with 7 nobles and has 23 now."

And if Tol Goldora didn't exist where would those 23 nobles be? Would there still be realms below 15 nobles? Where would those nobles be, in the West making the island more spread out or in the east making the island more compact?

The total realm count matters. If you have 100 nobles and 5 realms, then the average will be 20 nobles per realm. If you have 100 nobles and 6 realms then you will have an average of 16.6. Dwilight, prior to the four realms (Luria Fer, HD, Morek Empire, and Fissoa) that have died by merging into other realms, had an average of 12 nobles per realm. That was the state of the island when the limit was put in place and is relevant to the discussion.

[pcw27]

"Tol Goldora started with 7 nobles and has 23 now."

And if Tol Goldora didn't exist where would those 23 nobles be? Would there still be realms below 15 nobles? Where would those nobles be, in the West making the island more spread out or in the east making the island more compact?

That’s a huge assumption to be making. I know many would have been in entirely different game worlds. Some would have gone dormant. Some would have probably done the bare minimum and just gold farmed for their other characters. As I’ve said before a realm of 20 minimally active players is far worse than one of ten highly active and invested players.

Besides what kind of reasoning is that? The founders of Tol Goldora built an interesting realm that a lot of people want to play in and that’s somehow a bad thing because all the other realms couldn’t keep the interest of their players? So the players who want to build and create things that other players want to participate in should be punished and all those  players should be forced to settle for less compelling realms?

This is the same logic people were floating a while back that they should shut down Dwilight because it was the most popular game world! The Devs at the time actually thought that all the players of Dwilight would meekly immigrate to all the other worlds. The reality is I would have quit if they’d gotten rid of Dwilight and I think a lot of other players would have too. We didn’t choose Dwilight out of some abstract metric like player density we chose it because it appealed to us as a place where we could play interesting characters in a dynamic setting. We rejected continents like Atamara because we didn’t see the same potential there.

Thankfully at the time the Dev team saw logic and we ultimately kept Dwilight and got rid of Atamara. That’s the approach that should be taken to realms. Make it harder to hold onto the small, underpopulated flagging realms, don’t force people into them from well developed, thriving and compelling realms, and don’t make building such realms impossible.

The problem is you’re thinking of this only in terms of numbers: X Player Density/ Y total number of realms = healthy game and it just doesn’t work like that. This isn’t a game of numbers it’s a game of people. Forcing people into your idealized vision of a proper realm distribution won’t make the game better if you do it at the expense of human agency. Trust me I’m a social scientist I know a thing or two about how people work.

[Anaris]

We know that it's not down to bare numbers. But numbers are an important part of the equation, and just allowing anyone to secede and create a new realm, no matter how small their current realm is, is not a tenable solution given the size of our playerbase.

I understand your frustration and your concerns, but at least for the time being, that restriction is not going to be lifted.

That said, I am presently considering the reintroduction of the Colony Takeover in the foreseeable future, and given the different nature of what is required for a colony vs a secession, I would be willing to at least entertain the idea of allowing those with fewer nobles.