Entrenched families in same realm

[vanKaya]

Uh, dude. Sandlakes and Gorin was an agreement between the two lords. It has nothing to do with anyone else. If you wanted to become a lord, then why didn't you run for the Gorin election that occured very recently? I only put my char's name for it on the very last day. Or why don't you speak up for Tsamn? I'm just waiting for a candidate to have it TOed.

You could have been lord of Gorin easily had you wanted. And you could be lord of Tsamn easily if you want to. But you did not even put your name in the referendum for Gorin, and you did not bother sending a single letter to say you are interested in Tsamn. I honestly did *not* want to be the lord of Gorin, and I only put my name in that referendum in the last turn before its end because no one else was running.

Also, blame yourself if "nothing is said". I've sent messages to all knights of Iato and all vassals of Iato. I've also sent some letters to everyone that had absolutely nothing to do with orders, and also sent copies of exchanges I've just had with a foreign ruler, rather lengthy reads I might add.

But you chose not to react to *any* of my letters. Any of them could have easily resulted in an interested discussion, which was honestly what I was hoping for. After all, I do have regular exchanges with some long-timers, because, you know, they actually bother to reply to me when I write to them? You have absolutely no right to complain when you are granted opportunities and then spit on them.

Yes, the army orders are pretty plain. Move here. Do police work there. Fight rogues next door. What more is there to say? I used to lead a very dynamic army, which was very interesting and in which all the members had become rather tightly-knit and had a blast working together. What's the main thing that changed you imagine? The members of the army I lead. The others showed interest, whereas you do not.

Gorin was a free region. *Anyone* putting their name in for it would have won it. I never would have put mine in were there another candidate, whoever it may be. Tsamn... is a 1% duchy tax and swearing it to the duchy that's financing it's acquisition demanding too much of you now? Because you haven't said a word on it. If people are interested, I could then even TO more regions with the same conditions. It's basically a freebie.

Also, I don't get what your beef with the orders are. They don't come in every turn, only when things change. And what do you mean "demands"? What's so unreasonable of "Move to Pahk to deal with the rogues that just spawned". What the hell kind of orders are you getting elsewhere anyways?

To be fair I was frustrated when I wrote that.

The "deal " between the two lords could have been more transparent. And also it seemed weird to me that lords would just trade regions like that. Isn't there an oath to the region or something involved in a lordship? Maybe it's not an SMA island but I find it odd to do trades like that.

And the reason I only ran for Sandlakes is because I thought it would be in bad taste to run for two. How was I supposed to know that Sandlakes would have all the opposition and Gorin none. But that's beside the point.

I was frustrated that enweil seemed like the Chenier show, which it may well be, but on the other hand you are right in saying that I haven't made a legitimate effort to include myself. It's not as easy as you think because while the letters you've been sending realm wide have been interesting, informative, and appreciated, there's not a lot my character can say because he wasn't around for the invasions and really has no opinion on those matters. Still, I can be creative and find another way to get involved.

And the orders are fine.

[Chenier]

Which family do you play, when did you join Enweil? I wasn't referring to this last referendum for Gorin, but the one a bit over a week ago. This one:

Referendum Results   (12 days, 17 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for lordship of Gorin" has ended. Here is the final tally:

    2 votes for Miroslav
    1 abstentions
    32 votes were not cast


The winning choice therefore is Miroslav, with 2 votes. A simple majority was required, i.e. 1 vote.As the winner of this referendum, Miroslav is therefore proclaimed lord of Gorin.

As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
The region of Gorin is currently without a local lord. According to your government system, the next lord will be chosen by a referendum among all nobles of the realm.

And while I understand that it's hard for a new realm member to really comment on some of these messages, you could ask questions. It would encourage more letters to be written. Hopefully others will pitch in a few words as well. The more people speak, the more others feel the desire or see an opportunity to contribute.

Though I'm not sure if it's any consolation or not, barely anything is restricted to the council. And I've basically placed all the information that was into my latest letters, so there's no secrets being held.

And while I just realized that my letters to my knights have all been about estates (I wrote to my lords thinking it was to everyone, and got little feedback, so at first I thought you were part of that group as well but I don't think you are), if I can't get replies and confirmation about such simple tasks, on what can I build the trust to develop on other schemes? I'm not going to involve people who have never bothered to reply to me in my planning, nor would you in a similar position I'd expect. Some knights respect the oath with their lives, others bow to none other than the ruler, some fight for principles, while others fight for self-interests... These are things I need to know, to establish what I can share (if anything), and when, and how I can best integrate that character into my team (if at all). I don't move as quickly as I used to, but I still always have plans and back-up plans to shake things up.

You joined Enweil where there are great possibilities of promotions. As was said, getting lordship over Tsamn would be easy: the only candidate to have contacted me was... a lord of an established region. I asked him why on earth he'd want that, still can't figure it out. Maybe he wanted to join my duchy, I guess? Kinda like what Merkandur and Miroslav did, in a way?

I'll agree it's questionnable whether the Mirosalv/Merkandur deal would pass the SMA criteria. But BT isn't SMA, so I didn't let that hesitation stop me. The main arguments were that by this exchange, they would both be better able to perform their lordly duty to protect their serfs, as Miroslav was never around Gorin while Merkandur was never around Sandlakes, pretty much, while each was always around the other's region. Underlying this deal, though, was negotiations involving both lords and dukes, as Merkandur was loyal to the duke of Fengen and by his historic loyalty, blocking the expansion of the duchy of Iato, denying Drinilla the opportunity to switch as its lord wants. Merkandur was given compensation gold for his troubles, both lords now get a region that is easier for them to maintain, both dukes gets a more secure source for food, and Iato gets to grow two regions in one shot (as soon as that 7 days delay is over for Sandlakes). So as you can see, it wasn't just a swap of regions as if it was but a mere commodity, and there was a lot behind it. No, it wasn't transparent, but that was intentional as by keeping things between the people involved, it could all pass by more silently. Some people are grumpy old bears who think they wield more authority than they do, and others might invoke silly democratic rights or procedures. Didn't want that.

I *am* the most vocal and the most active in the realm. And I do tend to be the only one to really write realm-wide these days. The most frequent rulers, Handkor and Alex, are players have have little OOC time lately, and so I suspect that if they are not sharing much, it's because they are not involved in much and as such don't have much to share. There isn't much going on continentaly right now either, though, but that should change. But if you speak up, maybe you'll inspire others to as well. I think all of Iato's knights are new members of the realm. So is Pequad's lord. Surely you would be a less intimidating role-model for them than a long-time duke/ambassador, with a lord/marshal cousin, younger brother of a former lord/ruler/general/marshal who died in battle against the monsters during the invasion. Try to associate yourself with them, maybe if you get the ball rolling in that court it will increase the message flow for everyone.

[vanKaya]

I'm Vitaly.

You are the main person talking and I took that as a negative but in retrospect really it's a positive since if I start speaking up I'll immidietly get noticed. I think I had the wrong impression of enweil and it's inner workings. Its the classic  problem of battle master and I realize I've fallen victim to it, you cant complain when you're not actively trying to solve the problems you're complaining about.

[Chenier]

I got your letter. I had stuff going on tonight, so I'll be replying in the morning.

[Stue (DC)]

cool, now we think how everything can be settled in peace and harmony, so everybody is glad and noone needs to bother to do some in-game effort over absolutely necessary messages about already agreed issues.   :o

this small conversation clearly shows one of reason why we don't have in-game events and interesting messages.

[vanKaya]

cool, now we think how everything can be settled in peace and harmony, so everybody is glad and noone needs to bother to do some in-game effort over absolutely necessary messages about already agreed issues.   :o

this small conversation clearly shows one of reason why we don't have in-game events and interesting messages.

I hardly think that's the case. I still think having two characters in power is wrong but after listening to both sides of the story I understand that it is an issue that is caused both by newer players in the realm not speaking up as well as by older players non purposefully intimidating new players by holding many positions, making the upper echelons Seem like they're impenetrable. In my mind the general broader issue of this topic has been resolved, for me at least.

As for the discussion between me an Chenier that was in regards to the specific problem that had me initially thinking two character families were negative.

Chenier and i had an ooc discussion on a specific ooc problem that was discussed ooc and resolved ooc. Why this would make IC actions or messages unnecessary is beyond me, if anything it would stimulate activity in game.

[Stue (DC)]

i almost see any ooc subject in long letters, that is all ic matter discussed ooc.

that is, guys, kills the game completely, and it can be seen day by day in attempts to motivate somebody in power to play at all.

if you allow chenier to solve all you ic troubles by this means, than you will be indebted to him, and if you try to betray him some times later you will look like very bad guy in ooc sense.

and that is how all conflicts are resolved before they even started, and that is why those in power are entrenched and have no opposition.

[vanKaya]

You're seriously over analyzing and misunderstanding the situation.

My character has no IC problems with Chenier or with Enweil. I, the player, had ooc problems with what I perceived to be multiple characters in power being played by a small group of players. Do I still think that's a problem? Yes. But the conclusion I have come to is that the best way to solve said problem is to include myself more and make a real effort in coming into power rather than simply assuming it's impossible.

Chenier, through what he has said in this forum, has convinced me that he is not in fact hoarding power but that he is the most vocal because others are not so much. Which looking at the situateion seems likely to be true. And so my perspective changed from, "players whomhave multiple characters are the problem" to "players who don't say anything but still complain, are equally to blame"

I have no idea what debt you would be talking about. I don't expect Chenier to grant me anything and I expect if he does it will be because I am the only candidate and not because of this ooc discussion.

Furthermore, if I were to "betray" Chenier some point later im sure Chenier is able to separate me the player, from my character so I doubt I would look ooc as "a very bad guy"

Also betraying Chenier is unlikely necessary since Enweil is a democracy so I can come to power through other means, also my character isn't really the "betraying" type and lastly, if I betrayed him it would look bad IC, because he is my duke, not ooc because we had an ooc discussion.

You're making some grand assumptions buddy.

[Chenier]

i almost see any ooc subject in long letters, that is all ic matter discussed ooc.

that is, guys, kills the game completely, and it can be seen day by day in attempts to motivate somebody in power to play at all.

if you allow chenier to solve all you ic troubles by this means, than you will be indebted to him, and if you try to betray him some times later you will look like very bad guy in ooc sense.

and that is how all conflicts are resolved before they even started, and that is why those in power are entrenched and have no opposition.

None of my offers are new or for OOC reasons. I simply repeated OOC what was said and offered IC. I shared details on the Gorin/Sandlakes agreement OOC, but that's because my characters don't really want it to become IC knowledge. It was a private agreement, and they wish to keep it as such.

If he ends up betraying me? Meh, such is life. I've had allies betray me and close partners fade away. I'm not going to throw a hussy fit if it happens...

And do keep in mind that I am not the typical entrenched guy. I rock the boat. Sometimes it takes a little planning, and a bit of time for the proper circumstances to manifest themselves, but I inevitably rock the boat. I loathe silence, and so it's not something I wish for the long-term, unlike those who are content with it so that they may rule quietly (I'm also not a ruler, but a duke/ambassador and lord/marshal). I loath the current political landscape on BT right now, and trust me when things blow up I'll have pulled a few strings to amplify the chaos.

[Chenier]

Chenier, through what he has said in this forum, has convinced me that he is not in fact hoarding power but that he is the most vocal because others are not so much. Which looking at the situateion seems likely to be true. And so my perspective changed from, "players whomhave multiple characters are the problem" to "players who don't say anything but still complain, are equally to blame"

I agree that entrenched families can give a bad impression, but people don't do it out of greed in my opinion. Enweil is an old realm, that was spawned in the days where it truly was a team game and everyone-for-himself politics were not encouraged. So with time, people who loved playing in Enweil were left feeling that "I love what I do here, I wish I could do *more*". With the implementation of estates, this was amplified. "I wish we could be bigger so that we may pick more fights" no longer just meant region acquisition, but noble acquisition as well. I don't think Enweil has ever had an age where it wasn't involved in at least 2 different wars.

Because let's face it, if a 1 character per continent rule applied, Enweil would have almost half its current noble population, would be forced to abandon a ton of regions and would never be able to pick any fights with anyone. I doubt the influx from other continents would compensate for the loss, as BT seems to not be favored by massive character movements, such as when the South Islands were shut down if I recall correctly. And I suspect that many realms of BT would also be paralyzed or seriously affected if such a rule kicked in.

The fact that some Enweil families are so entrenched is that there are relatively few families, and many of the few don't have the time or apparent care for the positions. After all, it's simpler to be a knight of Fengen than to be a lord of anything else.

[Stue (DC)]

You're seriously over analyzing and misunderstanding the situation.

My character has no IC problems with Chenier or with Enweil. I, the player, had ooc problems with what I perceived to be multiple characters in power being played by a small group of players. Do I still think that's a problem? Yes. But the conclusion I have come to is that the best way to solve said problem is to include myself more and make a real effort in coming into power rather than simply assuming it's impossible.

Chenier, through what he has said in this forum, has convinced me that he is not in fact hoarding power but that he is the most vocal because others are not so much. Which looking at the situateion seems likely to be true. And so my perspective changed from, "players whomhave multiple characters are the problem" to "players who don't say anything but still complain, are equally to blame"

I have no idea what debt you would be talking about. I don't expect Chenier to grant me anything and I expect if he does it will be because I am the only candidate and not because of this ooc discussion.

Furthermore, if I were to "betray" Chenier some point later im sure Chenier is able to separate me the player, from my character so I doubt I would look ooc as "a very bad guy"

Also betraying Chenier is unlikely necessary since Enweil is a democracy so I can come to power through other means, also my character isn't really the "betraying" type and lastly, if I betrayed him it would look bad IC, because he is my duke, not ooc because we had an ooc discussion.

You're making some grand assumptions buddy.

he gave you information about some lordship deals issue, and practically open wholechannel of information to you, none of which you could gain in-game.

being unable to find any communication path in game is one of major if not currently the biggest in-game issue at all, and as far as i see it is more and more resolved ooc, which is apparent by dead silence in realms.

what you as a player have to do with your character inability to reach proper information about in-realm politics, to find way how to communicate within realm, explanation how some region is gained/lord appointed? i believe absolutely nothing.


i don't mean it as some personal critics for you or chenier, just as an example of devastating trend that is sucking blood out of game.

[Chenier]

he gave you information about some lordship deals issue, and practically open wholechannel of information to you, none of which you could gain in-game.

being unable to find any communication path in game is one of major if not currently the biggest in-game issue at all, and as far as i see it is more and more resolved ooc, which is apparent by dead silence in realms.

what you as a player have to do with your character inability to reach proper information about in-realm politics, to find way how to communicate within realm, explanation how some region is gained/lord appointed? i believe absolutely nothing.

i don't mean it as some personal critics for you or chenier, just as an example of devastating trend that is sucking blood out of game.

I think you completely misunderstand what is going on.

This exchange did not prevent IG interaction. It *created* some. And not in the form of "Since X said Y on the forums, I'll get Z", but rather "Oh, that's right, X said Z was for grabs, I guess I should respond to him if I want it".

[vanKaya]

he gave you information about some lordship deals issue, and practically open wholechannel of information to you, none of which you could gain in-game.

The issue you speak of may in fact exist, or not, but this is not an example of it.

I knew about the lordship that was being offered. It was a realm wide message. I was not taking it out of principle ( my own principles not my characters mind you) for reasons i have already stated, however, now I have seen that my perception of the situation was not what was actually happening.

As for the lordship deal that happened, it was also something that was very plain to see in game. Lord x drops his region because he feels he could better serve somewhere else, lord y does the same. The next day lord x is appointed to lord y's region and vice versa. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out. What I wanted was the explanation of theOoc intention so that I knew it was not done out of some malicious desire to power game. Chenier's explanation was enough for me to understand that I was taking out of context what was being done (much like you are now)

There would be no IC way to talk about these issues since they are not my character's but my own.

If you want to keep thinking whatever you want, you are free to. But I think we've made the situation abundantly clear.

[Valast]

The Colonies have a lot of that too--Giblot used to have more of this, but it's gradually decreasing, I think. But Lukon would lose a third of their numbers if all the second characters went away.

Oh ya lol...  Lukon is on its way out tho.  It is only time...  What is neat about Lukon tho is that it started with all fresh people playing together... and slowly over time it became the place it is now.  Few youngsters, all old grumpy people trying to relive youth.

A lot of rich history there tho.  Was a full thriving realm, then people start going away, and all that is left is a cadre of great people all too old. *shrug*

Unless something amazing happens to revive it...Lukon will be gone in another year I think.  Even the 'revenge' for Valasts death seems to be slow.

[Revan]

Oh ya lol...  Lukon is on its way out tho.  It is only time...  What is neat about Lukon tho is that it started with all fresh people playing together... and slowly over time it became the place it is now.  Few youngsters, all old grumpy people trying to relive youth.

A lot of rich history there tho.  Was a full thriving realm, then people start going away, and all that is left is a cadre of great people all too old. *shrug*

Unless something amazing happens to revive it...Lukon will be gone in another year I think.  Even the 'revenge' for Valasts death seems to be slow.

Maybe it's just me, but what always got me about Lukon is how despite being the pre-eminent power on the Colonies for six/seven years plus, you seem to have to play there to have any idea what she's really about. IIRC Lukon didn't ever have a tiki page and the wiki page that got put up in 2007 just carries the In-Game realm description. Time to write a history or something Valast. Indulge the many of us whose only major Lukon experiences have been to feel Lukonite steel at our necks :-P