Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[Bedwyr]

Also, MP is based on 3 facts. Which makes the prophet more a filosopher than an actual prophet. In other words, you convey rational teachings in stead of theological teachings. Which distinguishes MP from actual religions. If you would read the wiki page without knowing that it is a religion, I would say it is a guild, dedicated to unite humanity against the scourge that plagues human civilazation.

Look up Confucianism.  While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries.  tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down).  Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.

As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It's not a reality on Dwilight though. Yeah, I know, continents aren't isolated in vacuums. In this case, the Light is a rumor to all but those on BT. For that matter, Archons are only stories that existed in stories on BT. Sure, your characters can claim all they want that such things exist, but where can we find them on Dwilight?

Dwilight guy: "You say monsters and undead exist? Of course, they are a regular occurrence in these wild lands. You want to say daimons exist? Well, yes, in the shadow of Volcano Nightscree are all sorts of terrifying horrors. You say there is some force that is powered by human faith, with the ability to bring down shafts of light that wipe away daimons, monsters, and undead, and are recharged faster by human life force? Uh, sorry, but you want to direct me to where and when that ever happened on Dwilight? I know, you come from Beluaterra, good for you. I hear stories too, and some come from respectable and trustworthy sources. But you know, you're telling me to believe what you say, something I've never witnessed before, and I don't think any of my ancestors, or anyone who has lived on Dwilight all his life, has ever witnessed either."

Ah, and there you have what I think is the foundation of your religion. Your followers must accept the belief, on faith, that such things as the Light exist. It's like the real world prophets too. How do we know they witnessed what they said? We simply believe it.

[^ban^]

Reason wasn't, but neither were the priests of Apollo or whatever god you want to name in the pantheon keen on using Socrates' (or whatever philosopher you want to name) methods to contemplate what their gods' whims were.

And what of it? The greeks knew their gods were !@#$%^&s, and they didn't make any excuses for them.

---

This argument excluding religion as a system of reason is complete bollox.

Hey, guys, if religion is not a system of reason, where do you suppose the justification for the Hindu caste system developed? It certainly didn't develop from something outside the religion.

There is a very simple fact that all of the MP detractors seem to be missing entirely: religion shapes, defines, and controls the way a person thinks. The way a person reasons. To say that because a religion does this it is not a religion, frankly, is stupid. If you want to find some reason to hate on MP, this is not it.

[De-Legro]

It's not a reality on Dwilight though. Yeah, I know, continents aren't isolated in vacuums. In this case, the Light is a rumor to all but those on BT. For that matter, Archons are only stories that existed in stories on BT. Sure, your characters can claim all they want that such things exist, but where can we find them on Dwilight?

Dwilight guy: "You say monsters and undead exist? Of course, they are a regular occurrence in these wild lands. You want to say daimons exist? Well, yes, in the shadow of Volcano Nightscree are all sorts of terrifying horrors. You say there is some force that is powered by human faith, with the ability to bring down shafts of light that wipe away daimons, monsters, and undead, and are recharged faster by human life force? Uh, sorry, but you want to direct me to where and when that ever happened on Dwilight? I know, you come from Beluaterra, good for you. I hear stories too, and some come from respectable and trustworthy sources. But you know, you're telling me to believe what you say, something I've never witnessed before, and I don't think any of my ancestors, or anyone who has lived on Dwilight all his life, has ever witnessed either."

Ah, and there you have what I think is the foundation of your religion. Your followers must accept the belief, on faith, that such things as the Light exist. It's like the real world prophets too. How do we know they witnessed what they said? We simply believe it.

We also believe on faith that the Divine exist, though we have never seen them. We have believe that their goals do not coincide with the well being of humanity, against ample evidence that could be provided by the other religions of the island.

Also the religion was founded by families that had or had prominent members on BT, thus at least at the higher levels of the religion we are more inclined to believe the "rumours" If those we interact with want to treat them as unsubstantiated, well great RP for the win.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. John 20:29

[Geronus]

Look up Confucianism.  While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries.  tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down).  Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.

As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.

"Confucianism is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kong", 551–478 BC)."

I would be one of those pedants you disparage. It does many things that religions do, but so do ideologies like Communism. In my book, it's still missing something.

[Galvez]

Look up Confucianism.  While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries.  tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down).  Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.

As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.

I did as you asked, and read about Confucianism in English and my native laguage, and here is something interesting I found which I will try to translate as correct as possible.:

"Religion or philosophy?
On whether Confucianism is a religion or a philosophical system, there is no consensus. If one defines "religion" as the worship of a supreme being, Confucianism is not a religion. Confucius, for example, did not address the human soul, human nature or the afterlife. If one follows this definition, one can also argue that neither Buddhism nor Taoism are by definition religions. When religion is seen as a belief system with its own view of humanity and its place in the universe than Confucianism and Buddhism and Taoism meet with the definition."

I think that Tom clearly defined Europian-styled SMA-based religions as the first. Meaning that the MP has no place on Dwilight as a religion.

[Geronus]

There is a very simple fact that all of the MP detractors seem to be missing entirely: religion shapes, defines, and controls the way a person thinks. The way a person reasons. To say that because a religion does this it is not a religion, frankly, is stupid. If you want to find some reason to hate on MP, this is not it.

So do political ideologies like Communism and Facism. So, for that matter, does public education. And the media. Yet I hear no one arguing that they are religions. The cultural influence of a religion is only one part of what makes it a religion. There's more to it than that, and my opinion remains that MP is missing something.

[De-Legro]

So do political ideologies like Communism and Facism. So, for that matter, does public education. And the media. Yet I hear no one arguing that they are religions. The cultural influence of a religion is only one part of what makes it a religion. There's more to it than that, and my opinion remains that MP is missing something.

One thing to remember about the Manifest path is that we don't deny the existence of divine figures separate to the "rogue" forces. In fact their existence is core to our beliefs. Were we differ is instead of thinking that one particular group of deities aids humanity, or at least the sub set of humanity that we care about, we see them as powerful but at best disinterested beings. At worst they actively seek to destroy us, and I guess most of them we think just enjoy toying with us for their own pleasure.

[Geronus]

One thing to remember about the Manifest path is that we don't deny the existence of divine figures separate to the "rogue" forces. In fact their existence is core to our beliefs. Were we differ is instead of thinking that one particular group of deities aids humanity, or at least the sub set of humanity that we care about, we see them as powerful but at best disinterested beings. At worst they actively seek to destroy us, and I guess most of them we think just enjoy toying with us for their own pleasure.

Except that the entities at the core of MP's philosophies are indisputably real, which makes MP's beliefs a matter of politics instead of faith. "Not denying" the existence of deities other than those entities is not the same thing as having faith in their existence. All you're saying is that "if they do exist, they're probably bad too". MP is secular at heart, being an organization designed to propound a worldview that is at its heart political, not spiritual.

[Indirik]

Again, Buddhism?

Which is an eastern philosophy/religion, which has quite clearly been ruled as not OK for Dwilight. So any argument on the validity of tMP which is based on "But Buddhism does it" is invalid.

I'm not getting involved in a discussion about what constitutes an RL religion or not. (And yes, there are people who believe that Buddhism, and other such religions are not really "religions". I personally don't know, as I'm not really qualified to have that discussion, as I'm guessing most of us aren't.) I am solely discussing BattleMaster religions, specifically as relates to Dwilight and SMA. You can worship anything you want, even pastries if you so wish, on any other island. But on Dwilight there are stricter rules that need to be followed.

[De-Legro]

Which is an eastern philosophy/religion, which has quite clearly been ruled as not OK for Dwilight. So any argument on the validity of tMP which is based on "But Buddhism does it" is invalid.

I'm not getting involved in a discussion about what constitutes an RL religion or not. (And yes, there are people who believe that Buddhism, and other such religions are not really "religions". I personally don't know, as I'm not really qualified to have that discussion, as I'm guessing most of us aren't.) I am solely discussing BattleMaster religions, specifically as relates to Dwilight and SMA. You can worship anything you want, even pastries if you so wish, on any other island. But on Dwilight there are stricter rules that need to be followed.

Christianity is HEAVILY based on middle eastern traditions and ideology though, so really the line between Western and Eastern religions is not a clear cut as we might believe.

[Galvez]

I am very unfamiliar with eastern philosophy/religion. Done some reading (late at night..  ). And I must say that while Buddhism does not worship divine beings, it is very spiritual. Just some key-words: Rebirth, karma, hel and heaven (cosmos), 'Devas'. And if the MP wants to distinquish themselves as a nontheistic religion, I am still missing the spirituality. But that does not change the fact that nontheistic religions contradict with the SMA-rule.

[Indirik]

Christianity is HEAVILY based on middle eastern traditions and ideology though, so really the line between Western and Eastern religions is not a clear cut as we might believe.

I'll take your word on that. I don't know. But that doesn't change the fact that Easter-style philosophy/religions are not OK for Dwilight.

[De-Legro]

I am very unfamiliar with eastern philosophy/religion. Done some reading (late at night..  ). And I must say that while Buddhism does not worship divine beings, it is very spiritual. Just some key-words: Rebirth, karma, hel and heaven (cosmos), 'Devas'. And if the MP wants to distinquish themselves as a nontheistic religion, I am still missing the spirituality. But that does not change the fact that nontheistic religions contradict with the SMA-rule.

Yes we are in the process of updating the wiki page to reflect some of the spiritual beliefs of the Manifest Path. Interesting thing to note, very few religions have EVERY aspect or even the majority of the beliefs of their faith on the wiki. How much of the SA beliefs and arguments are never documented on the wiki?

By the way Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. We believe MANY deities exist. n a more specific sense, theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God. You want to rid Dwlight of all non-monotheistic religions any time soon?

We mostly just not that fond of them, though we already have one sizable sect that worships a deity. There is no rule against worshipping deities within the Manifest Path, we simply don't have a deity that all followers must follow, and we have some restriction on what constitutes a deity that doesn't conflict with the goals of the order.

[De-Legro]

The Manifest Path follows a teaching something like Deism. The difference is that we believe there are two kinds of Deity, those that actively intefere with the world, and those that fit the Deism model of being all powerful but largely does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. The first group are generally seen as a threat to humanity, while the second set are those that we have so far accepted within the religion.