Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[vonGenf]

This is something that I have never heard of, nor personally seen. Nor can I find any mention of anything similar to this on the wiki.

I was thinking of the drill-a-hole-in-your-head incident; maybe it's not extremely relevant to the conversation.

[Indirik]

If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no."  And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.

There are times when I wasn't all that sure it was, either. Worship of stars? Seems kind of ridiculous, right?

It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster.  I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.

Yes, obviously atmosphere is an important part of it. It is, after all, the "Serious Medieval Atmosphere". But I still think we need some kind of guidelines as to what is and is not appropriate. If it's all a matter of "Wait a year or two and see what happens before you make judgments", then if the judgment comes back "This is really not appropriate", then the judgment will be impossible to enforce.

I don't 100% know that tMP is non-SMA. I have suspicions that it may not be appropriate. And I see a lot of parallels to the bland state religions that you see on other islands. You know, the ones who's sole purpose is to keep other religions out?

Maybe what we need is a new thread to discuss what kind of things are and are not appropriate?

[vonGenf]

The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)

The point is that the Cathars took existing religions texts, considered these beings as existing, but using their reason concluded that these beings must be in fact evil and were not worthy of worship. They worshipped a "Creator", but believed this creator to be hidden, or at least not present in this world.

[Geronus]

If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no."  And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.

Don't try and tell me you can't see the parallels.

I see them, but that doesn't mean that MP and SA are equivalent in every way. Personally I agree that whether SA is SMA is questionable, but I have other issues with MP that SA does not suffer from.

It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster.  I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.

And here I have to agree to disagree. For me it breaks the atmosphere. Accepting the worship or existence of other divine entities doesn't replace having one of your own to worship. That in the end is my problem. MP doesn't worship ANYTHING. It's a rational ideology that places the welfare of humanity above the needs of the individual AND the restrictions of the divine. Everything I have read about it springs from that first principle alone - the emphasis on noble rule over commoners, distrust or outright hatred of non-human entities, a system of judgment designed to evaluate actions against the greater good of humanity, even the newly added section on souls emphasizes self-improvement in a very Confucian manner as a means of strengthening the soul as a defense against non-human powers.

If you want to sell MP to me, you have to tell me what it is that MP worships, and 'humanity' is not an acceptable answer here.

[Bedwyr]

If you want to sell MP to me, you have to tell me what it is that MP worships, and 'humanity' is not an acceptable answer here.

This is the problem.  You're demanding that a religion must worship something.  I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.

[Bedwyr]

I don't 100% know that tMP is non-SMA. I have suspicions that it may not be appropriate. And I see a lot of parallels to the bland state religions that you see on other islands. You know, the ones who's sole purpose is to keep other religions out?

If it ends up being one of those, then it will be because Koli is no longer living on Dwilight.  Really not seeing the state religion parallel myself.  There's a theology, there are both long-term general goals and short-term very specific goals, we're pushing the evangelism hard, I'm aiming to make a theocracy in the medium-term future, and several more in the long-term future (with a fair bit of support behind these ideas), and there's at least one major religious conflict brewing as soon as I find out about this new daimon-worshipy religion IC.

Maybe what we need is a new thread to discuss what kind of things are and are not appropriate?

I'm all in favour of clearer guidelines, and I think this discussion shows that we need them.

[Geronus]

This is the problem.  You're demanding that a religion must worship something.  I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.

Which is, apparently, where we agree to disagree. However, that is the distilled version of what my problem with it is, and I feel quite strongly about it breaking the atmosphere as a result. Naturally that's only my opinion, not necessarily anyone else's, but it's clear that there's a pretty sharp divide on the issue amongst the readers of this thread at least.

It might be interesting to see a "What is SMA?" thread.

[Meneldur]

This is the problem.  You're demanding that a religion must worship something.  I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.

A problem here is no pre-modern religion exists that did not worship something; even in the East religions had worship. Yes, from a purely ideological perspective, it is perfectly possible to be Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist without worship but in practice this never really happened.

Confucianism was heavily tied up with ancestor worship, veneration of the Emperor as the "son of heaven" not to mention the elevation of Confucius to god-like status.

Taoism had a whole pantheon of deities and indeed still does.

Buddhism greatly venerated the Buddha and many forms, such as that prevalent in Japan, China and Tibet have a whole pantheon of enlightened beings that they venerate, if not outright worship.

Historically speaking the idea of a worship-less religion seems absurd. There is a reason why the Greco-Roman philosophical schools (such as Epicureanism and Stoicism) are classified as philosophies and not religions despite having complex belief systems.

Also there is the issue of game-mechanics, which clearly include priests, temples and shrines and priest abilities such as "praying for signs". It is clearly assumed that religions will worship with divinities and the like.
Of course you could argue that your "priests" are not really priests but are actually scholars/philosophers, that your "temples" are not actually temples but rather academies where members of your order meet for discussion (which of course begs the question as to how the are differant from guidhouses), and that your "prayers for signs" are actually merely conversing amongst the peasants to find out local problems. However IMO the wording of the game-mechanics with regards to religion make a clear statement what kind of religion is aimed for, if not simply the use of "prayer", something impossible without worshipping or at least venerating a divinity of some sort be they deity, natural force or transcended human.

Of course this is just my reasons why I think any worship-less religion such as Manifest Path should not be classified as a religion, and I agree with Geronus that a disscussion of what classifies as SMA would be more effective here.

[Bedwyr]

Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.

And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers.  It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself.  Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively.  Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.

Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes.  It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).

[Meneldur]

Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.

And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers.  It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself.  Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively.  Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.

Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes.  It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).

I was not commenting on gods but rather the worship of them. I have little issue with the idea of human stengthening their souls to combat demons (and yes I know that the Manifest Path has more elaborate beliefs but I'm just using that as an example as you mentioned it) but that is in my opinion an issue for a guild or knightly order; in fact I think such an order that extends its skepticism of the benevolence of the supernatural to gods as well while advancing humanity would be interesting indeed.

What I see as problematic is a "religion" supposedly with temples, priests and prayers that does not have any kind of obligatory worship, when no such precident appears in history and the basic game-mechanics heavily imply worship and prayer as vital components.

Simply look at some of the definitions:

Temple

A building devoted to the worship, or regarded as the dwelling place, of a god or gods or other objects of religious reverence

Priest

A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.

All of these involve the active worship and/or veneration of a divinity/divinities not merely acknowledging that they exist while then focusing on the more important issue of fighting them.

[Geronus]

Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.

And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers.  It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself.  Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively.  Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.

Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes.  It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).

Those religions also ALL had gods that were revered, prayed to and worshipped, often as patrons and protectors. MP is still missing that piece.

Also, I challenge you to back up your statement that Greco-Roman traditions espouse the idea that the gods had to be worshipped only because humans could not oppose them. I have never heard that interpretation of the ancient Greco-Roman religions, and it implies that the Greeks and Romans saw themselves as slaves to the gods, forced to venerate them in the absence of any way to free themselves. This does not jibe with anything I know about them.

Were those gods capricious and sometimes cruel? Most certainly. That does not mean that they were not genuinely venerated, often as patrons and protectors. The Greeks and Romans did not hate their gods, they simply believed that it was wise to fear their wrath. Moreover, the gods could be a source of prosperity and blessings as well, something that MP specifically denies (I think anyway - correct me if I am wrong).

[Bedwyr]

One could easily pray to the souls of those in the temples and shrines.  And while there are no "worship" services, there are going to be rituals (I love ritual, hehe), and there are certainly sermons.

And again: The realities of the Battlemaster world are different from those of the real world.  Doing a direct comparison without taking that into account is insane.

[Bedwyr]

Simply look at some of the definitions:

Temple

A building devoted to the worship, or regarded as the dwelling place, of a god or gods or other objects of religious reverence

Priest

A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.

All of these involve the active worship and/or veneration of a divinity/divinities not merely acknowledging that they exist while then focusing on the more important issue of fighting them.

Temples are regarded as the dwelling place of objects of religious reference.  See the stuff on souls.

Priests of the Manifest Path can administer religious rites.  As I said, I love ritual.  The fact that the rites focus on opposing the gods rather than appeasing them is a change that works because the Battlemaster world is different from the real world.

[Meneldur]

One could easily pray to the souls of those in the temples and shrines.  And while there are no "worship" services, there are going to be rituals (I love ritual, hehe), and there are certainly sermons.

And again: The realities of the Battlemaster world are different from those of the real world.  Doing a direct comparison without taking that into account is insane.

Interesting, I was not aware that the souls in the MP would be prayed to which certainly makes things seem more religious then simply having humans "going it alone" against the demons.

Although I do think that the wiki-page on souls might need modification clarifying the matter- at the end it concludes that all this soul stuff simply means that the true follower of the path should strengthen his own soul, it mentions nothing of communing with souls or rituals that would be included in such prayer. Considering the fact that one of the main MP policies is a skepticism of the good intentions of any active supernatural powers, the fact that the souls are active and can be communed with should be more clear in order to highlight the fact that they have an important role to play. Otherwise people will simply assume, as I did, that they come under the "non-malevolent but uncaring" category.

[Meneldur]

Temples are regarded as the dwelling place of objects of religious reference.  See the stuff on souls.

Note that the key word in the definition is "reverence", however as you elaborated in your previous post it seems souls are prayed to which would certainly classify them as such (I'm imagining something along the lines of Christian Saints? As in the souls of the admirable dead used as examples and prayed to for the protection of the temple/shrine? Am I in the right place here or completely off track?).

The wiki did not even mention that they were prayed to or had any religious significance outside of reminding nobles that they should attempt to improve their own souls, so I really do think that needs modifying for better understanding.

Priests of the Manifest Path can administer religious rites.  As I said, I love ritual.  The fact that the rites focus on opposing the gods rather than appeasing them is a change that works because the Battlemaster world is different from the real world.

So as Geronus stated it seems to come down to how we define SMA, how far a religion should deviate from the template of what we in the RL consider religion and still be SMA (the general template that all/most historical religions comply to rather than actually being based around RL religions, which would include a primary focus of the worship of divinities).