BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Dekion on February 05, 2012, 04:56:21 PM
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I am using my husbands log on here but I am getting very frustrated with the new duchy and city system on testing. I have a character Redemption who was named the duchess of Itau and was able to do nothing. She could not even find an estate in the region, it was as if nothing was there. She was not able to be named lord of the region either.
After a week of waiting and trying to figure something out someone suggested she step down as duchess, get named lord, and then reappointed as duchess. That seemed to work! Excellent. So she created some estates and changed some tax settings and began attracting interested knights.
Now here is the part that I cannot understand. The duchy of Itau is part of the Duchy of Via. However on the region page in information tab it lists Itau as a separate duchy, but the actual region is under the duchy of Via. The Earl of Itaufield would like to form a duchy of Itau with Itau City and Itaufield as a beginning but he has no option to swear allegiance to a city that is not its own duchy. Which then brings me back to the point of where it shows Itau as both a duchy and a region within another duchy.
I have also tried to swear Itau to itself fto form another separate duchy but that didnt work either.
The only thing I can think of is to secede Itau City and then reswear to Asylon? But could I swear back to Asylon and not Via? I really dont know. The very weird thing is that a month ago when the new changes had already been implemented a similar situation came up and Itau was a separate duchy, now it isnt. Any suggestions?
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I believe it is up to the Ruler to make you a Duchy or not. He should have the option to make your city a Duchy.
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Dustole is correct. Only the ruler can name a duke/duchess/create a duchy. Just because you are lord of a city or stronghold does not make you a duke/duchess/duchy.
You said this is already the case? Then there is an obvious bug if a region adjoining yours cannot join your duchy. Has it been reported onto the bugtracker?
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eh... the duchy of itau can't be part of duchy of via... you are still confused between city and duchy. from the looks of the realm page, you got appointed as the lord of the city of itau (which is part of duchy of via).. and that's it.
if you are dead keen on the name duchy of itau, then get the ruler to dissolve the empty duchy of itau.. .then create new duchy of itau from the city of itau.
if you don't care about the name, then just get the ruler to create a new duchy of whatever from the city of itau.
obviously... a new duchy doesn't have to formed from the city.. could be formed from the townsland... depends on who the ruler wants as duke.
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The problem is that there is already a Duchy of Itau, but it has no regions. Once a duchy is reduced to no regions, it can never get more. That is because you need to either be adjacent to a duchy, or in one of its regions, to switch allegiance to it. Since the duchy has no regions, you can neither be in it, or next to it. It will be forever regionless. The ruler can keep it around if they want, to make it an honorary title, but it can never have any income, because it can't have any regions. Or the ruler can disband it.
Unlike the old system, capturing a new city under the new system will not automatically create a new duchy. It is the ruler's choice whether or not to make a new duchy. Lord's have no say in the matter. You can't just hop up and say "We're a duchy now".
If you want a Duchy of Itau with a duke and regions, then have the ruler of Asylon disband the current Duchy of Itau. It is useless as it stands. Once that is done, have the ruler create a new Duchy of Itau based on the city of Itau. That will make the lord of Itau the new Duke of Itau. Then other regions can, if they want, change allegiance to the new duchy.
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Now here is the part that I cannot understand. The duchy of Itau is part of the Duchy of Via.
Duchies can not be part of other duchies. Only regions can be parts of duchies.
The confusion results from both the duchy and the region being named Itau - but these are two entirely different entities. That is what is new about the new system: Duchies and city regions are no longer the same thing.
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Duchies can not be part of other duchies. Only regions can be parts of duchies.
The confusion results from both the duchy and the region being named Itau - but these are two entirely different entities. That is what is new about the new system: Duchies and city regions are no longer the same thing.
The confusion also stems from the fact that signature do not yet display the new hierarchy correctly. I can confirm that dukes who are not lords of cities cannot sign "Duke of..."; I am 90% certain lords of cities who are not dukes still sign "Duke of...".
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The confusion also stems from the fact that signature do not yet display the new hierarchy correctly. I can confirm that dukes who are not lords of cities cannot sign "Duke of..."; I am 90% certain lords of cities who are not dukes still sign "Duke of...".
Agreed. I've uploaded a quick fix that should take care of some of this.
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omg its fixed!
But I mistakenly made the duchy say " the Duchy of the duchy of Itau" and now I cannot dissolve it. Can a Gm help me change the name back to " Duchy of Itau"?
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Doubt they'll do that.
You'll likely have to get her to step down, dissolve the duchy, and reform it.
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omg its fixed!
But I mistakenly made the duchy say " the Duchy of the duchy of Itau" and now I cannot dissolve it. Can a Gm help me change the name back to " Duchy of Itau"?
It does tell you two dozen times that it'll prefix that, doesn't it? I've fixed it.
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You're nicer than I would be, Tom. :p
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It does tell you two dozen times that it'll prefix that, doesn't it? I've fixed it.
why not put in a simple check of the word "duchy" and reject?
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"duchy of the Grand duchy of X"
come to think of it.... that could work if fissoa merges....
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Thanks Tom. When I read the thing I thought it said you had to write the whole thing out.
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Agreed. I've uploaded a quick fix that should take care of some of this.
My signature now has "Duke of Paisly, Duke of Paisly", for I am both the lord of the city and the duke of the duchy. Not much of an eye-candy. :/
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My signature now has "Duke of Paisly, Duke of Paisly", for I am both the lord of the city and the duke of the duchy. Not much of an eye-candy. :/
Yes, we need a new title for a Lord of a City. It is even worse for some realms that have two Dukes running around. Only way to differentiate is to actually get imaginative with the Duchy Name
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I have to say that, just reading what players are saying about the new duchy system makes my head hurt.
Why the new duchy system? Have people really been asking for the ability to split one duchy into two? To have the Duke and Lord of a city be different nobles? What does this change add to the game? Does it make the game more balanced? More fun? More realistic?
Because all I see is needless complexity that adds even more boring busy-work. I don't want to have to open up Excel worksheets just to understand my realm's feudal system.
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I have to say that, just reading what players are saying about the new duchy system makes my head hurt.
Why the new duchy system? Have people really been asking for the ability to split one duchy into two? To have the Duke and Lord of a city be different nobles? What does this change add to the game? Does it make the game more balanced? More fun? More realistic?
Because all I see is needless complexity that adds even more boring busy-work. I don't want to have to open up Excel worksheets just to understand my realm's feudal system.
Now you can have two cities, or more in a single Duchy. It gives people more freedom to set up the hierarchy the way they want and add flavour to the realm. What real complexity does it add, a second title?
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Now you can have two cities, or more in a single Duchy.
Or *all* in a single duchy, which I predict will be the trend.
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Or *all* in a single duchy, which I predict will be the trend.
If the realm is willing to let it happen, sure why not. I think there will be something eventually that makes large duchies inefficient, similar to large realms, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
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If the realm is willing to let it happen, sure why not. I think there will be something eventually that makes large duchies inefficient, similar to large realms, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
It's much easier to justify stuffing it all in the same duchy, as far as efficiency/security/stability goes, than to justify giving the power to !@#$ up the realm (secede) to a whole bunch of people. Whether it be good for the game experience or not. Just sayin'.
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It's much easier to justify stuffing it all in the same duchy, as far as efficiency/security/stability goes, than to justify giving the power to !@#$ up the realm (secede) to a whole bunch of people. Whether it be good for the game experience or not. Just sayin'.
City Lords can still secede themselves can't they? I haven't really checked to be honest. but like I said, if people are willing to play in a realm that centralises power to that extent, power to them. There are plenty of other realms where people will fight tooth and nail to try and ensure the King has a balance of power against him.
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City Lords can still secede themselves can't they? I haven't really checked to be honest. but like I said, if people are willing to play in a realm that centralises power to that extent, power to them. There are plenty of other realms where people will fight tooth and nail to try and ensure the King has a balance of power against him.
Can they? I'm pretty sure that's for dukes only.
As for the concentration of power, "all that evil requires to succeed is for good men to do nothing" (or something like that). In a lightweight game, concentrating power is, in most cases, much easier to do than to prevent. Hell, even decentralization mostly only happens when the ruler decides by himself that he wants to spread the power around...
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City Lords can still secede themselves can't they?
No. Secession is a ducal power.
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Or *all* in a single duchy, which I predict will be the trend.
Exactly. The benefits are obvious:
1. Everyone gets their tax income in gold rather than bonds when in-realm.
2. All civil work and police work gets the in-duchy penalty rather than the harsher out-of-duchy penalty.
3. All the region lords can see status reports realm-wide instead of just for their duchy.
Even those who oppose realm centralization will find it pretty hard to argue against those benefits.
Basically, by allowing players to draw their own duchy borders, you have effectively destroyed the duchy system. Duchies will just be realms now.
If the intention was to roll back the duchy system, we should just do that. You're not really giving players additional freedom or choice when there is an obvious, optimal configuration. Everyone will scream and shout until their ruler presses the "make my realm not suck" button.
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Exactly. The benefits are obvious:
1. Everyone gets their tax income in gold rather than bonds when in-realm.
2. All civil work and police work gets the in-duchy penalty rather than the harsher out-of-duchy penalty.
3. All the region lords can see status reports realm-wide instead of just for their duchy.
Even those who oppose realm centralization will find it pretty hard to argue against those benefits.
Basically, by allowing players to draw their own duchy borders, you have effectively destroyed the duchy system. Duchies will just be realms now.
If the intention was to roll back the duchy system, we should just do that. You're not really giving players additional freedom or choice when there is an obvious, optimal configuration. Everyone will scream and shout until their ruler presses the "make my realm not suck" button.
All tax is currently in Bonds, no matter where you are.
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Even those who oppose realm centralization will find it pretty hard to argue against those benefits.
I think you're overestimating the players' desires to min-max the game mechanics. We've already seen a couple townslands turned into duchies on Dwilight.
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I think you're overestimating the players' desires to min-max the game mechanics. We've already seen a couple townslands turned into duchies on Dwilight.
Well, if there's a competing desire for something else, then sure that other thing can drive for more duchies to be created. But if there's a void of ambition/projects, then few will oppose such arguments as they will have no counter-arguments of their own.
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Doesn't tax income always show up as bonds now? I'll have to double check my characters on tax day.
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Doesn't tax income always show up as bonds now? I'll have to double check my characters on tax day.
All tax is currently in Bonds, no matter where you are.
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My signature now has "Duke of Paisly, Duke of Paisly", for I am both the lord of the city and the duke of the duchy. Not much of an eye-candy. :/
Hm, it shouldn't call you a duke anymore on testing for the city region - try now, please.
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Why the new duchy system? Have people really been asking for the ability to split one duchy into two? To have the Duke and Lord of a city be different nobles? What does this change add to the game? Does it make the game more balanced? More fun? More realistic?
Because all I see is needless complexity that adds even more boring busy-work. I don't want to have to open up Excel worksheets just to understand my realm's feudal system.
Because. Yes. Yes. A lot. Yes. I hope so. Absolutely.
The new system is actually simpler than the old one, once you accept it. In the old system, some regions were also duchies, while some were not. Some regions belonged to a duchy, while some were their own. Some regions could switch to a different duchy, some couldn't. Some region lords were also dukes, some were not. And so on.
In the new system, a region is a region is a region. Period. A region lord is a region lord, period. A duchy is a collection of regions, and has a duke.
If you try to draw the two systems down on a piece of paper, you will very, very quickly realise just how much simpler and easier to understand the new system is. The old one just seems simple because you're so used to it.
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Basically, by allowing players to draw their own duchy borders, you have effectively destroyed the duchy system. Duchies will just be realms now.
I stopped doing hypotheticals a long time ago.
There is no movement towards centralization in the game that I can see. The number of duchies has not changed noticeably. You are drawing a scare scenario that simply is not happening. And if it ever does - it's not like we're not here and couldn't add code to make large duchies ineffective, isn't it?
As a ruler, I would definitely not want a single huge duchy. That duke would be such a threat to my power, I could basically hand him the crown right away. There are many more reasons for having multiple duchies.
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Hm, it shouldn't call you a duke anymore on testing for the city region - try now, please.
Darius Malo, Duke of Donghaiwei, Marquis of Donghaiwei, Marshal of the Order of the Austere Star
Katrina Dragul, Duchess of Aegir, Marchioness of Aegir
Pierre von Genf, Duke of the First Temple, Marquis of Caiyun, Ambassador of Morek Empire
That's what titles look like for recipients of messages. Distinction between region lord and duke is now evident, even if as of now being lord of a townsland or a city is no different. (caiyun is a townsland, donghaiwei and aegir are cities)
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Agreed. I've uploaded a quick fix that should take care of some of this.
I think some of this code somehow found its way to stable.
Wilhelm Altenahr, Duke of Enlod, Duke of Enlod
to - Your Duke, Brakus Stien, Duke of Ser'quea, Duke of Ser'quea, Ambassador of Helmsdale
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Distinction between region lord and duke is now evident, even if as of now being lord of a townsland or a city is no different. (caiyun is a townsland, donghaiwei and aegir are cities)
i don't know about that... might depend on which title system the ruler picked..
eg.. on bt... riombara
town avengmil = Marquess
town mio dupaki = Viscount
all cities = Marquess
the rest = Viscount
aside from rural lopa... which might be an earl - position empty atm... used to say earl... don't know why... that said.. lopa was a ruler+lord combo.....
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I think some of this code somehow found its way to stable.
Wilhelm Altenahr, Duke of Enlod, Duke of Enlod
to - Your Duke, Brakus Stien, Duke of Ser'quea, Duke of Ser'quea, Ambassador of Helmsdale
I've got something similar happening.
Elk longmane
General of Principality of Zonasa, Duke of Zonasa, Duke of Zonasa, Marshal of the Protectors of the Principality
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There is no movement towards centralization in the game that I can see. The number of duchies has not changed noticeably. You are drawing a scare scenario that simply is not happening. And if it ever does - it's not like we're not here and couldn't add code to make large duchies ineffective, isn't it?
Again, we instinctively punish rather than reward. How about giving bonuses to small duchies? That's the same thing, right? Why does everything have to be worded as "No! Bad player! No cookie for you!" :P
I will withdraw my opinions until we have some time to experience a non-buggy version of the new duchy system, then.
And it does seem that bugs keep breaking out of the testing island barrier and gleefully start to invade stable. Yes I know I'm anthropomorphizing software bugs. :)
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Again, we instinctively punish rather than reward. How about giving bonuses to small duchies? That's the same thing, right? Why does everything have to be worded as "No! Bad player! No cookie for you!" :P
I will withdraw my opinions until we have some time to experience a non-buggy version of the new duchy system, then.
And it does seem that bugs keep breaking out of the testing island barrier and gleefully start to invade stable. Yes I know I'm anthropomorphizing software bugs. :)
Some code is shared between Testing and Stable, so at times changes needed for Testing will affect stable.
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Some code is shared between Testing and Stable, so at times changes needed for Testing will affect stable.
Which is the main reason I want them closer together again. They were really never intended to be this far apart. A lot of stuff would've been written differently if they were.
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Hm, it shouldn't call you a duke anymore on testing for the city region - try now, please.
"Marquis", now.
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As lord of Vozzessdor, I was a margrave then changed duchies and became a marquis.
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All tax is currently in Bonds, no matter where you are.
Is that intended? If so, why?
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Why the new duchy system? Have people really been asking for the ability to split one duchy into two? To have the Duke and Lord of a city be different nobles? What does this change add to the game? Does it make the game more balanced? More fun? More realistic?
There are so many awesome opportunities with the new system that people aren't even utilizing. Want to create another layer between yourself and the landed nobility? What about a "prince"/advisor/viceroyal who manages the duchy on your behalf? Perhaps you don't trust the Marquess. Maybe you want someone to sponsor armies or run a guild or have access to decent sums of gold for shadowy purposes. Maybe you want to handle appointments to regions yourself. Running out of land/estates and need to make someone happy? Appoint a Duke! There are endless possibilities. With the rebalance, even towns can potentially handle having two masters. A ruler might benefit from having a small group of loyalists as Dukes to insulate him from the multitude of landed nobles.
Of course, there's nothing that says you have to explore all of these options. You can keep chugging along exactly as you have been. This change to the game is, IMHO, an unalloyed good.
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We have those things. They are called Dukes. -_-
So under the new system, do Dukes even have any responsibilities if they are not also a region lord? Region lords, especially, err, city region lords, have a lot of responsibility and duties. It seems to me that all Dukes are good for is taxing his lords and being useless.
This new system raises many, many questions:
Who draws the duchy borders?
Can region lords still defect to an adjacent duchy?
Who gets to create new duchies?
Who gets to name the duchies?
Who cleans up empty/dead duchies?
How are dukes appointed/elected? How much freedom do different government systems have to change this? Can each duchy have its own system for selecting its duke?
Will there be an easy and intuitive way for realms to say "This is all very new and scary. I just want to default to exactly how the old system works until we figure out the implications and controls of the new Trade system, the new Estate system, the region population re-balance, etc., etc., then we'll come back and figure out what to do with the new Duchy system."
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Dukes rule their Duchy. They can appoint Lords in their Duchy, Raise Taxes, and secede (I think). They get powers and can be far from useless. How useful they will be will also be dependent on how useful they want to be though. Unless they are the Ruler's Pet Duke without any regions of course ;)
Duchy borders are drawn by the Region Lords in the end. They decide which Duchy to belong to, just like with the old system. Lords can switch to another Duchy by A) being adjacent to it or B) being in the Duchy they want to join.
Duchies are created by the Ruler, who also name them at that time, so the Ruler also has some control over the Duchy layout. The Ruler can also dissolve a Duchy with no more regions, or decide not to if he wants that. The Ruler appoints the Duke, though he can of course use a Referendum for this.
You can default to the old system very easily. The initial set-up will be the old system, so you don't have to do anything. And for the rest, a Ruler can easily make a Duchy in each City/Stronghold and have the Lord of the City be the Duke, just like the old system, whenever a new City is captured etc.. However you can easily go for a different set-up. In Old Grehk, the Duchy of Vozzesdor just lost the City of Vozzesdor after the Lord and Duke had a disagreement and the Lord of Vozzesdor decided to switch :)
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So under the new system, do Dukes even have any responsibilities if they are not also a region lord? Region lords, especially, err, city region lords, have a lot of responsibility and duties. It seems to me that all Dukes are good for is taxing his lords and being useless.
Dukes will have as much responsibility as you give them. That does not mean they will get any more game mechanics buttons to click. But they should still be responsible for the welfare of their duchy. If you don't want to hold them to that, then that's your choice. Which pretty much works just like it did in the old system. The only real difference between a "duke" and a "lord" was that the duke had the "Secede" button. Which he still has in the new system.
Who draws the duchy borders?
The lords, by choosing their duchy allegiance, Just like in the old system.
Can region lords still defect to an adjacent duchy?
Yes. Also, a lord can change allegiance to to the same duchy as the region he is physically in, even if that duchy is not physically bordering his region.
Who gets to create new duchies?
The ruler creates new duchies. A ruler can bestow the title of Duke on any lord of a city, townsland, or stronghold who is not already a duke. Their region is removed from their currently duchy, and becomes the first region in their new duchy.
Who gets to name the duchies?
The ruler names the duchy at the time of its creation.
Who cleans up empty/dead duchies?
The ruler can disband any duchy that no longer has regions. He is not required to do so, and can even appoint someone as the duke of a duchy that has no regions. But empty duchies and vacant duke positions will stick around until the ruler decides to disband them.
How are dukes appointed/elected? How much freedom do different government systems have to change this?
At the moment, all dukes are appointed by the ruler. There are no provisions for electing a duke. I don't believe that any such provisions are planned, but I could be wrong on that.
Can each duchy have its own system for selecting its duke?
No. And this is almost certain to never happen. Selection method for dukes would be determined at the realm level, if multiple methods are ever implemented.
Will there be an easy and intuitive way for realms to say "This is all very new and scary. I just want to default to exactly how the old system works until we figure out the implications and controls of the new Trade system, the new Estate system, the region population re-balance, etc., etc., then we'll come back and figure out what to do with the new Duchy system."
When the transition is made, everything in your realm should initially be set up the same. All your government options should carry over. i.e. you will still have the same lords and lord selection methods, the same dukes, the same duchies, knights will be sworn to the same regions with the same percentage oaths, etc.
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Thanks. Two more edge cases that I'd like to ask about:
Currently, in Tyrannies, I believe the ruler can appoint himself as Duke. Would this be still allowed in the new system? Can a noble be Dictator, Duke, and Lord of BananaRepublica City?
If you have a duchy with only rural regions... what happens when it secedes? Do you just get a realm without a capital? I'm fine with letting people screw themselves over, but new players joining a "headless" realm are probably not going to have a nice experience.
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Thanks. Two more edge cases that I'd like to ask about:
Currently, in Tyrannies, I believe the ruler can appoint himself as Duke. Would this be still allowed in the new system? Can a noble be Dictator, Duke, and Lord of BananaRepublica City?
If you have a duchy with only rural regions... what happens when it secedes? Do you just get a realm without a capital? I'm fine with letting people screw themselves over, but new players joining a "headless" realm are probably not going to have a nice experience.
Yes, Solaria's Benevolent Tyrant, may the stars guide and protect him, recently appointed himself Duke so he can better control/enrich our lives.
I'm not sure about the second one, and interesting case where a Duchy has lost the region it was created from. Even if they did have a capital though, the realm would be struggling with a rural capital. My thought is that is can't have a capital, but perhaps the code checks for such viability before allowing the secession, I would need to check.
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So under the new system, do Dukes even have any responsibilities if they are not also a region lord? Region lords, especially, err, city region lords, have a lot of responsibility and duties. It seems to me that all Dukes are good for is taxing his lords and being useless.
They are, in other words, the living embodiments of nobility. ;)
No, seriously - it depends on what you make out of it. The dukes can be anything from pure figureheads to the real rulers of the realm, and that doesn't depend on game-mechanics, but on how it's played.
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If you have a duchy with only rural regions... what happens when it secedes? Do you just get a realm without a capital? I'm fine with letting people screw themselves over, but new players joining a "headless" realm are probably not going to have a nice experience.
We've taken care of that. Duchies without a least one city in them can not secede. And the duke must be in the city that will automatically become the new capital. In fact, this is how the capital is chosen - it is whatever city the duke is in when he secedes.
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Currently, on stable, when a realm takes a city away from another realm, we end up with a duchy spread across two realms. The city says it belongs to the duchy of X for the conquering realm, and the rest of the regions in the duchy says they belong to the duchy of X for the original realm.
I just wanted to make sure that this is due to the fact that stable does not have all the necessary code changes. Under the new system, the conquering realm would get another city added to one of its existing duchies, and the original realm would lose a city from one of its duchies?
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Under the new system, the conquering realm would get another city added to one of its existing duchies, and the original realm would lose a city from one of its duchies?
Correct.
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What happens to the regions of a duchy that has its last/only city taken? Do they become unaligned regions, or do they automatically switch to another available duchy within the realm?
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What happens to the regions of a duchy that has its last/only city taken? Do they become unaligned regions, or do they automatically switch to another available duchy within the realm?
I think they just stay in their current duchy.
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Loss of a city, or any individual region at all, has no effect whatsoever on a duchy. Duchies are no longer tied exclusively to cities in any way. A city has no special significance to the duchy, beyond the fact that it has a bank.
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Loss of a city, or any individual region at all, has no effect whatsoever on a duchy. Duchies are no longer tied exclusively to cities in any way. A city has no special significance to the duchy, beyond the fact that it has a bank.
And allows the Duke the option of secession? (Need at least one city)
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Yes, a duchy needs at least one city to secede.
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So hypothetically we could have a situation where Keplerstan and Evilstan are at war, and the duchy of Keplerville ends up with Evilcity as its sole city, and the duchy of Evilcity has Keplerville as only city?
Maximum lulz!
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So hypothetically we could have a situation where Keplerstan and Evilstan are at war, and the duchy of Keplerville ends up with Evilcity as its sole city, and the duchy of Evilcity has Keplerville as only city?
Maximum lulz!
Theoretically, yes.
I do hope that over time, the duchy names will differ from the region names, though.
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Give all pre-existing duchies, i.e. one where the duchy name matches the city name, a one-shot name change? I'm sure you'd get a lot of takers, given the opportunity. Should be possible to filter it via code, so that ineligible requests aren't even accepted. Drop the "duchy of" string, and compare the results with the list of regions in the duchy. If you get a match, show the "Change Duchy Name" option. Leave it active for a week, then yank it out.
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Give all pre-existing duchies, i.e. one where the duchy name matches the city name, a one-shot name change? I'm sure you'd get a lot of takers, given the opportunity. Should be possible to filter it via code, so that ineligible requests aren't even accepted. Drop the "duchy of" string, and compare the results with the list of regions in the duchy. If you get a match, show the "Change Duchy Name" option. Leave it active for a week, then yank it out.
Or we could use something similar to name requests, and have the Duchy Name changes recorded pending approval.
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As duchies are purely abstract constructs anyways, I'm even thinking about allowing them to be changed rather freely. Maybe with a timer and a gold cost so it's not abused, but aside from that?
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um... forbid change if duchy name matches realm name? (especially if not your realm)
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um... forbid change if duchy name matches realm name? (especially if not your realm)
That looks like an excellent casus belli to me. It's also historically accurate: see the numerous British Kings who claimed the title of "King of France", or the title of "Duke of Normandy" that the british crowns hold onto to this day.
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I do hope that over time, the duchy names will differ from the region names, though.
Much more likely to happen if we could rename duchies, even once. Right now, you'd have to go through so many hoops to accomplish this that it's unlikely to happen at all, unless you do a lot of planning in the beginning.
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Hmm, so what kind of Duchy names would you get? I'm always terrible at any kind of naming, so I'm left wondering how our current Duchies could be renamed.
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Hmm, so what kind of Duchy names would you get? I'm always terrible at any kind of naming, so I'm left wondering how our current Duchies could be renamed.
My own duchy has been named "Duchy of the First Temple" for historical reasons.
I could easily imagine duchies such as "Duchy of West [realm]", "Duchy of the Isles" or "Ducal March", depending on geography.
I am certain people will come up with even better names. However, most probably city names will always remain popular.
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As duchies are purely abstract constructs anyways, I'm even thinking about allowing them to be changed rather freely. Maybe with a timer and a gold cost so it's not abused, but aside from that?
I don't think I'd allow free-form renaming, even at a gold expense. Let's face it, a gold cost, or a short civil-unrest cost is essentially no cost at all. There's enough gold floating around that it's a non-issue. What you'll end up is someone changing the name as soon as they get the duchy, or save up the gold.
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What you'll end up is someone changing the name as soon as they get the duchy
Why is that a problem?
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You lose continuity. Getting named as a duke is a prestigious and honorable. That prestige and honor is based on the accumulated history of the duchy. Changing the name is tantamount to discarding all that history, effectively pissing on it as if it didn't matter.
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You lose continuity. Getting named as a duke is a prestigious and honorable. That prestige and honor is based on the accumulated history of the duchy. Changing the name is tantamount to discarding all that history, effectively pissing on it as if it didn't matter.
I would argue that since the prestige is tied to the name of the Duchy, someone who renames a duchy is, as you, effectively a large part of the prestige that should have come with it. It's their loss however.
However, the game now makes it quite easy to create a new duchy and discards the old one. Even if you don't allow name changes, it's not too hard to think those who want a new name will get one.
But in the end, it does not matter very much. From a RP point of view they shouldn't change too often, so I can see your point.
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That looks like an excellent casus belli to me. It's also historically accurate: see the numerous British Kings who claimed the title of "King of France", or the title of "Duke of Normandy" that the british crowns hold onto to this day.
yes.. but the thing is. those were existent titles. and they do have a blood link to it.
it's utterly stupid to have a kingdom of france.. and then someone from the other side of the world create a duchy of france.
i would even suggest ban all future ducal titles that matches existent region names. (ie.. existent ones keep... but no to new ones)
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i would even suggest ban all future ducal titles that matches existent region names. (ie.. existent ones keep... but no to new ones)
Wut? So when Astrum takes the city of Chrysantalys, and I create a duchy and bestow it on the Marquis of Chrysantalys, I can't all it the Duchy of Chrysantalys? I'd love to hear the rationale for that...
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Wut? So when Astrum takes the city of Chrysantalys, and I create a duchy and bestow it on the Marquis of Chrysantalys, I can't all it the Duchy of Chrysantalys? I'd love to hear the rationale for that...
How about forbidding giving a Duchy the name of a region that it does not contain, and the name of a realm that does not contain it?
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So, Fissoa couldn't accept the refuge nobles from Madina, and create the duchy of East Madina (Lesser Madina, Madina in Exile, etc.) in the townsland of Drowentown, since there is a region named "Madina"? Or, hell, why couldn't they call it the Duchy of Madina, since it contains the nobles that still think of themselves as Madinans?
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So, Fissoa couldn't accept the refuge nobles from Madina, and create the duchy of East Madina (Lesser Madina, Madina in Exile, etc.) in the townsland of Drowentown, since there is a region named "Madina"? Or, hell, why couldn't they call it the Duchy of Madina, since it contains the nobles that still think of themselves as Madinans?
Hm. OK, you've convinced me on realms.
Still think the restriction for regions is reasonable.
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You lose continuity. Getting named as a duke is a prestigious and honorable. That prestige and honor is based on the accumulated history of the duchy. Changing the name is tantamount to discarding all that history, effectively pissing on it as if it didn't matter.
I didn't say the duke could rename the duchy. I agree that would be a horrible idea, within a week we would have ten duchies named after their duke.
I'd reserve the right to names for the ruler.
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Hm. OK, you've convinced me on realms.
Still think the restriction for regions is reasonable.
I think if would be amazing if Luria Nova had already created a duchy of Askileon.
I think it would be even more amazing if both Luria Nova and Solaria had already created a duchy of Askileon! ;D
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I think if would be amazing if Luria Nova had already created a duchy of Askileon.
I think it would be even more amazing if both Luria Nova and Solaria had already created a duchy of Askileon! ;D
Oh please please please, make me(my character) Duke of Solari. (Cmon, Saul, you know you want to...)
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...within a week we would have ten duchies named after their duke.
That's partly what I would be worried about, too. In addition to that, though, you'd have people changing duchy names to be more consistent with their chosen character theme. You'd have a "viking" character changing the Duchy of Perdan to the Duchy of Thor's Hammer, because "Perdan just isn't viking enough", and then the next duke would change it to the Duchy of Shinto-ka because he's a "samurai" or some crap like that. I'm all for realm themes, and the ability to customize your realm to the desires of the players. But we often have such a diverse player base, and people with strong ideas of what their individual character concept is, that we end up with a fractured conglomeration of stuff that just doesn't fit together into a cohesive story.
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Well, my thoughts after all this:
- ruler-only option, same screen where he can create and delete duchies
- cost of gold (a bit) and hours (some more)
- timer so it can't be changed back-and-forth so quickly that it would confuse people, especially in other realms
- announcement to the realm, with protest options
That should curb most abuses I can think of.
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That sounds perfect!
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all but the timer is done now. Timer requires a new database field.
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Oh please please please, make me(my character) Duke of Solari. (Cmon, Saul, you know you want to...)
Malus, too, is looking for an excuse to stop playing nice and grind PeL into oblivion! ;)
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Malus, too, is looking for an excuse to stop playing nice and grind PeL into oblivion! ;)
Another stab perhaps? Meh, you're not going to get anything you wish. At least if you only wish to see PeL destroyed.
Anyway, on topic, I do like these changes Tom. Should liven things up, especially now that the duchies can have more custom name changes. (with restrictions)
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Well, my thoughts after all this:
- ruler-only option, same screen where he can create and delete duchies
- cost of gold (a bit) and hours (some more)
- timer so it can't be changed back-and-forth so quickly that it would confuse people, especially in other realms
- announcement to the realm, with protest options
That should curb most abuses I can think of.
The protest option is good. A ruler who doesn't like one of his dukes could prove very annoying by constantly changing the name of the duke's duchy.
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Hm, would all of the duchies have the prefix "duchy of..." before their name, or could one play around with it (perhaps have the option of making it "duchy of Eastmarch" or "Eastmarch duchy"?)
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Hm, would all of the duchies have the prefix "duchy of..." before their name.
Yes.
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Hm, would all of the duchies have the prefix "duchy of..." before their name, or could one play around with it (perhaps have the option of making it "duchy of Eastmarch" or "Eastmarch duchy"?)
I cringe a little at the sound of the latter.
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Hm, would all of the duchies have the prefix "duchy of..." before their name, or could one play around with it (perhaps have the option of making it "duchy of Eastmarch" or "Eastmarch duchy"?)
Yes, and I will not consider changing it. There are some things that need to have consistency or else people will be horribly confused.
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I was intending to abolish a duchy, but the lord who just got elected to the city seems to have been promoted to the duchy as well...
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yeah. elections and some other stuff still on old system...
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Was this Duchy system a way of making secessions harder to do?
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NO, it shouldn't really have any effect on secession.