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BattleMaster => Locals => Beluaterra => Topic started by: Nosferatus on June 12, 2011, 10:34:45 AM
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I am starting a concept of a religion alot similar to medieval christianity.
A religion that sees everything in life as being part of religion and thus almost everything a man does should be out of religious motivation.
I hope this gives alot of depth and makes alot of stuff happen from this religious view of life.
it could spark massive wars on all fronts, with a real and passionte reason instead of all the silly conflicts we have most of the time, in which there is so much lack of reasoning that people don't seem to bother finding one anymore.
Basically i hope this will help making the game even more interesting than it is on Beluaterra.
I personally find other religions very lacking in that extend.
Anyone who feels the same or is simply interested, please help by contributing ideas or suggestions here or by simply altering the wiki page i started.
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Beluaterranism
What it needs most now are the following:
*religious icons, symbols
*a decent and fitting name
*a list describing sins on the tablet of sins.
*more descriptions on the different castes and there individual rituals or rites.
*any extra input or criticism for the original concept.
*stories to be added to the book of faith, or the whole stories of the existing summarized ones.
*I hope to have a quite a big holy book in the end, full of fun moral stories.
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If your goal is to appeal to ALL of BT, then I'm not sure how well having named saints and stuff would go. I think that it might be possible to get more appeal by keeping things as abstract as possible, and have people find their own flavors, if you'r really aiming for pan-continental. Make sure not to let people make their own faiths though.
That's just what I believe though, so who knows, maybe the opposite is true.
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If your goal is to appeal to ALL of BT, then I'm not sure how well having named saints and stuff would go. I think that it might be possible to get more appeal by keeping things as abstract as possible, and have people find their own flavors, if you'r really aiming for pan-continental. Make sure not to let people make their own faiths though.
That's just what I believe though, so who knows, maybe the opposite is true.
Agreed. Abstract means that people who followed other faiths can continue to worship their faith while attending this church. A list feels exclusive and makes one's prior beliefs unwelcome.
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Agreed. Abstract means that people who followed other faiths can continue to worship their faith while attending this church. A list feels exclusive and makes one's prior beliefs unwelcome.
I'd rather say that any room for personal opinions or philosophy is what has created splits.
The biggest religions in the real world are monotheistic and have an answer for nearly any philosophical question.
But i agree on the saints, that there shouldn't be a list with the 'real' saints.
It would perhaps be more fun and logical to have different saints in different parts of beluaterra and the freedom for people to worship there own saints.
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Agreed. Abstract means that people who followed other faiths can continue to worship their faith while attending this church.
Yeah. And bbbbboooorrrriiinnnggg.... ::)
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Yeah. And bbbbboooorrrriiinnnggg.... ::)
It does seem to limit some of the options for conflict, but then I am sure they will find at least some wanting to combat the spread of such a all encompassing religion.
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It does seem to limit some of the options for conflict, but then I am sure they will find at least some wanting to combat the spread of such a all encompassing religion.
The more sucsesful it becomes in spreading non violently, the more enemies it will make and the more desperate they will get.
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The idea is interesting, but reading the wiki, don´t know, sounds too much like cristianity, the idea of heaven and hell and the creation story (god created everything and then created a man and a woman? too biblical)
Besides, with the idea of god drinking blood for power, would open for the nobles to do the same...and don´t we have a blood cult in BT already(i may be mixing islands, so please correct me if I´m wrong)
I like the idea of creating religions but, like Tom said, we should avoid too many similarities with the existing religions...
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The more sucsesful it becomes in spreading non violently, the more enemies it will make and the more desperate they will get.
Hmm.. where have we seen that before? I can swear that I've seen something like that happen IG already... Was it on Dwilight maybe? ;D
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Agreed. Abstract means that people who followed other faiths can continue to worship their faith while attending this church.
I always hated when religions tried to do that. "You can worship anyone you want, any way that you want, so long as you sign up on our membership list."
IMHO, those are the kinds of "religions" (and I use that word very loosely) that kill the religion game in BattleMaster.
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I always hated when religions tried to do that. "You can worship anyone you want, any way that you want, so long as you sign up on our membership list."
IMHO, those are the kinds of "religions" (and I use that word very loosely) that kill the religion game in BattleMaster.
I fully agree, thats why i am starting the project.
If you wish to contribute your very welcome! :P
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The idea is interesting, but reading the wiki, don´t know, sounds too much like cristianity, the idea of heaven and hell and the creation story (god created everything and then created a man and a woman? too biblical)
Besides, with the idea of god drinking blood for power, would open for the nobles to do the same...and don´t we have a blood cult in BT already(i may be mixing islands, so please correct me if I´m wrong)
I like the idea of creating religions but, like Tom said, we should avoid too many similarities with the existing religions...
That is unavoidable, especially for a monotheistic one.
In history, the most 'sucsesful'(in terms of beeing used/followed by most numbers) religions have alot in common.
And the thing they have most in common is perhaps the genesis found in Sumerian(and other later Mesopotamian societies), Jewish, crisitian and muslim faiths, which your referring to.
Its a hell of a trick to avoid all this or something like this when trying to achieve the goals i have set.
If god is the greatest being in existence, then anything that is is because of him and the things that are most similar to god are thus more devine.
How would your monotheistic genesis look like? god waved his pancy little magic sceptre and poof! there is humanity? Please tell me.
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Cycle of transcendence. "God" was once mortal but its existence was altered to immortality (Not important to know details because you, as a human, sure as heck will never understand). It is the one and only "God" because no others of its "types" ever transcended mortality, nor did any others gain control over "reality". Therefore, that former mortal being is no longer mortal, and is the one and only absolute divine entity in this "reality".
"God" formed a separate fully enclosed space (Again, who cares about the fine details, "Great magic", good enough for followers!) for whatever purpose. Perhaps it is a Xanatos Gambit with the lifetime of nearly eternal eons, that with enough iterations of its created "realities", "God" can discover the answer behind the mystery of its own transcendence. And yes, that means in my theology, "God" has one and only one thing it does not understand: How it became "God".
Now the question might be: Where did "God" come from? Cycle of transcendence. It is implied that "God" arose out of a previous cycle whereby the previous "God" did the same thing, trying to figure out how it became "God" by creating a Universe and observing its progression. Presumably one human from this iteration can become an absolute "God", but no, that would be massive hubris, and that's a big no-no in my faith's creed.
However, "God" remembers what it once was, and has recreated them perfectly as they were from the beginning, for "God" knows what his former mortal species was like at its origin. He also knows the state of the forged Universe at its origin, and so from the instant closest to origin, because for whatever reason even "God" in my theology cannot create directly at the absolute origin point (Not important for humans to know. Wouldn't help them anyway). Then he watches the progression of the cosmos, and the origins of "life". Unknown trillions of years later, the first spark of human life appears, just like "God" predicted/calculated, for it set the conditions of the Universe correctly such that after a certain amount of time, there would be a 100% probability of humans appearing in that Universe.
That means, "God" did not directly create humans in my genesis. It rather created the Universe with the intent and the 100% chance that humans would come into being in that Universe precisely at the time "God" had set when it created the Universe. Think of it like tuning the settings of your software such that it performs a certain action after some time delay. Only "God" thinks in units of time, if at all, that are far longer than we can comprehend. As such, even trillions of years is nothing to "God", and "God" can wait that long before beginning its observation of its target species.
There, I think I just gave some weird variation of intelligent design. Oh well, that's coincidental, as this came directly from my imagination, more or less while I was thinking about how to consider what daimons were. Incidentally, daimons have nothing to do with what I have written thusfar.
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Here's the monotheistic religion I founded a few months ago on FEI:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Church_of_Echad (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Church_of_Echad)
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Yeah. And bbbbboooorrrriiinnnggg.... ::)
The goal, I believe, wasn't to create a particularly amazing religion, but rather one that seeks to spread everywhere. One can only realistically seek one or the other within the current system, so one has to chose. For a religion with such objectives as Beluaterranism, staying as vanilla as possible would be the best path.
Nothing prevents a vanilla religion from having flavored orders within it, though. Imo, this would be the optimal path to take.
I'd rather say that any room for personal opinions or philosophy is what has created splits.
The biggest religions in the real world are monotheistic and have an answer for nearly any philosophical question.
But i agree on the saints, that there shouldn't be a list with the 'real' saints.
It would perhaps be more fun and logical to have different saints in different parts of beluaterra and the freedom for people to worship there own saints.
In the real world. Not in BM. BM favors bland religions with little content. I've fought for a long time and proposed a bunch of ideas that would help religions with actual content to compete with the edge being vanilla grants, but there was not enough interest in helping making fun religions successful. Which is why, as I said above, one must seek either being well-developed, or being successful.
I always hated when religions tried to do that. "You can worship anyone you want, any way that you want, so long as you sign up on our membership list."
IMHO, those are the kinds of "religions" (and I use that word very loosely) that kill the religion game in BattleMaster.
What kills the religion game is how religions are implemented. People just adapt to best use what's available. I've written murals of text to propose changes that would help improve the religion game. People are happy with religions doing fine as hollow shells. Don't blame others if they opt for hollow shells if doing otherwise is just shooting oneself in the foot.
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The goal, I believe, wasn't to create a particularly amazing religion, but rather one that seeks to spread everywhere. One can only realistically seek one or the other within the current system, so one has to chose. For a religion with such objectives as Beluaterranism, staying as vanilla as possible would be the best path.
Nothing prevents a vanilla religion from having flavored orders within it, though. Imo, this would be the optimal path to take.
I know what the goal was, and I know that the reality of the BM game is that generic, broad religions are most successful. I was just saying, light-heatedly, that that's boring.
What kills the religion game is how religions are implemented. People just adapt to best use what's available. I've written murals of text to propose changes that would help improve the religion game. People are happy with religions doing fine as hollow shells. Don't blame others if they opt for hollow shells if doing otherwise is just shooting oneself in the foot.
In most all of what I've been around for reading on both the mail discussion list and the forum, I don't think there is anyone that has said vanilla religions are good things for the game. Merely there has been much discussion on over just how to make them more interesting and what new game functions should be created to do that, etc.
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In most all of what I've been around for reading on both the mail discussion list and the forum, I don't think there is anyone that has said vanilla religions are good things for the game. Merely there has been much discussion on over just how to make them more interesting and what new game functions should be created to do that, etc.
Artemesia seems more than content with having bland vanilla religions have an upper hand on well thought-out ones. >:(
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What kills the religion game is how religions are implemented. People just adapt to best use what's available. I've written murals of text to propose changes that would help improve the religion game. People are happy with religions doing fine as hollow shells. Don't blame others if they opt for hollow shells if doing otherwise is just shooting oneself in the foot.
It's not a game mechanics issue. It's a player issue. Religion can be made important and influential if the players allow it to be that way. Adding mechanics that force religion on people will only piss off players and drive them away. If the players want it, it's there. If they don't, then they don't.
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It's not a game mechanics issue. It's a player issue. Religion can be made important and influential if the players allow it to be that way. Adding mechanics that force religion on people will only piss off players and drive them away. If the players want it, it's there. If they don't, then they don't.
I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down. A paranoia about possibly having alliances creep up in too great a numbers is apparently more determining than an easy observation on how most stable religions have no content whatsoever. And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...
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I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down. A paranoia about possibly having alliances creep up in too great a numbers is apparently more determining than an easy observation on how most stable religions have no content whatsoever. And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...
How is the lack of RP in most religions a mechanics issue? It's a player issue...
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I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down.
Unfortunately this is one area where we'll just have to disagree.
And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...
I wouldn't even dream of saying that, and I never have. I'm on your side on the treaty friction thing. I think the current mechanic is too onerous, and needs adjustment before treaties can be sent live.
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Unfortunately this is one area where we'll just have to disagree.
I wouldn't even dream of saying that, and I never have. I'm on your side on the treaty friction thing. I think the current mechanic is too onerous, and needs adjustment before treaties can be sent live.
I just feel that the current state of religion hampers the game experience more than the current state of alliances. Alliance problems were limited to a few isolated continents, and I personally hate having to live with the consequences of islands too lazy to help themselves. If the alliances lasted so long, it's because a lot of people just didn't care, despite the voiceful discontent. Why should everyone suffer lame mechanics because a bunch of nobles in a continent or two didn't give a !@#$?
Lame religions, on the other hand, are everywhere. And their presence saps the potential of those who care, making it hard to keep on caring. But this ain't seen as being as important, even if religions could be a whole lot better sources of wars than lame friction mechanics.
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I just feel that the current state of religion hampers the game experience more than the current state of alliances. Alliance problems were limited to a few isolated continents, and I personally hate having to live with the consequences of islands too lazy to help themselves. If the alliances lasted so long, it's because a lot of people just didn't care, despite the voiceful discontent. Why should everyone suffer lame mechanics because a bunch of nobles in a continent or two didn't give a !@#$?
Lame religions, on the other hand, are everywhere. And their presence saps the potential of those who care, making it hard to keep on caring. But this ain't seen as being as important, even if religions could be a whole lot better sources of wars than lame friction mechanics.
Yes, but if I recall correctly many of your suggestions have revolved around artificially forcing players to develop religions in more detail than currently. I'm sorry, but RP just isn't something you can force. If players want to take religion seriously and put in the effort to develop deep theologies, they will. If they want their religions to be powerful and influential, they will make them so IG through RP means. You cannot force people to involve themselves that deeply. They can only do that of their own free will.
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Yes, but if I recall correctly many of your suggestions have revolved around artificially forcing players to develop religions in more detail than currently. I'm sorry, but RP just isn't something you can force. If players want to take religion seriously and put in the effort to develop deep theologies, they will. If they want their religions to be powerful and influential, they will make them so IG through RP means. You cannot force people to involve themselves that deeply. They can only do that of their own free will.
My suggestions were to force superficial details, not to write 10 pages of text on theology.
And I'd argue that if people want their alliances, then let them have them.
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So how's Beluaterranism coming along?
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pretty well, still working on texts and disusing it with the players who founded another religion.
My character already found the book and is now busy translating it.
Its not yet clear if this book will be integrated by an already existing religion or if it will be integrated into a new one.
I think the later and probably under the name Sanctus Sanguis, as the name of the book.
I also enhanced the saints aspect of the faith to suit more variety and openness to local cultures and differences within the religion, while trying to remain as much of the unity aspect as possible.
Help is still welcome, i'l like to include many more mini stories into the book before it is oficialy integrated in game.
help for logos, icons or artwork is also very welcome.
update: i have finished two new 'books' on the wiki page, one goes in depth about magic, spellmasters, the light, the archons, the dark forces, daimons and such and how the religion beliefs that all exists and works.
Any help or comments are appreciated (Artemesia). :P
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pretty well, still working on texts and disusing it with the players who founded another religion.
My character already found the book and is now busy translating it.
Its not yet clear if this book will be integrated by an already existing religion or if it will be integrated into a new one.
I think the later and probably under the name Sanctus Sanguis, as the name of the book.
I also enhanced the saints aspect of the faith to suit more variety and openness to local cultures and differences within the religion, while trying to remain as much of the unity aspect as possible.
Help is still welcome, i'l like to include many more mini stories into the book before it is oficialy integrated in game.
help for logos, icons or artwork is also very welcome.
update: i have finished two new 'books' on the wiki page, one goes in depth about magic, spellmasters, the light, the archons, the dark forces, daimons and such and how the religion beliefs that all exists and works.
Any help or comments are appreciated (Artemesia). :P
I'm preparing something as well that should spice things up a bit. The seeds have been planted, I just need to work on them a bit before they blossom into something meaningful.
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I'm preparing something as well that should spice things up a bit. The seeds have been planted, I just need to work on them a bit before they blossom into something meaningful.
please elaborate
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please elaborate
You realize that's a bit like asking where and when someone is throwing your surprise birthday party, right?
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You realize that's a bit like asking where and when someone is throwing your surprise birthday party, right?
Basically.
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I have paused the project for a while and now revitalized it.
Its now ofically an IG book that i hope will give the religion of the bloodseakers a form and something to be called a religion for.
If it doesn't work together, it will become a religion on it's own.
I still don't like the name bloodseakers anyway, but atleast it gives a perfect platform from to launch this new religion.
Pierre will be traveling threw out the continent to bring the book to your characters too.
So, see you all soon!
[[Bloodspeakers/Sanctus_Sanguis]]
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It is a very well written religion but from the point of Bloodspeakers rather heretical. The Bloodspeakers in my mind are deeply polytheisthic, supporting many local and diverse practices on a different scale depending on what has been agreed with the spirit/deity/divine entity.
Think of early pre-Augustus roman religion for the closest earthly analogy...
It may be that we have our first religious schism ;)
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It is a very well written religion but from the point of Bloodspeakers rather heretical. The Bloodspeakers in my mind are deeply polytheisthic, supporting many local and diverse practices on a different scale depending on what has been agreed with the spirit/deity/divine entity.
Think of early pre-Augustus roman religion for the closest earthly analogy...
It may be that we have our first religious schism ;)
I wans't expected to be received with open arms by the bloodspeakers.
It's obviously threatening to its polytheistic views.
But by trying to force of a certain amount of conflict, schism, i can get the attention and discusion i need to atract nobles :P
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Interesting conversation. And with Yeux as Founder of The Bloodspeakers, I'll leave here my opinions on the subject after reading a few posts.
First of all, is extremely difficult to create something completely new if you're not a genius. With all our time of History it's obvious that almost every religion have a lot of common points. And create something new without inspiration is not we intend to do. Not while I'm not a genius ;)
Our idea is to create a religion with local deities. We are using terms like "Old Gods" and "Ancient Traditions". The idea is about to restore an old faith lost with the Invasions and with internal wars among the mankind in the Island. Plurality guiding to one goal. Discipline and sacrifice. Mainly to attract the attention of people interested in give ideas to create our religious concepts in many ways, but always attached to the same common goal. This is no different from many religions that we know in our world and in the world of BM.
We share the idea of expanding our borders. Every religion wants to expand its influence. And there's a huge difference between what a Priest says and what he really wants to do. The basic difference between what is said to guide the people and what is done to have them in yous hands. And while the 'Beluaterranism' is just a book and The Bloodspeakers are a religion, Yeux consider it just a text of an ancient realm. A crazy one who likes to be slaves of one god.
I don't like the idea of Angels, Saints, Heaven and Hell and the idea of one God. But this is merely OOC. IC, Yeux don't have to worry with a crazy book with crazy ideas. This is just another way to convince people. If the little minds want to believe that at some point they have one God and are ready to embrace the religion, it's better than not have them convinced.
It's like have a religion for slaves and a true religion for true nobles. The difference here is that The Bloodspeakers will not let the slave religion take place and suppress the true one like we have seen Christianity/Catholicism end with all the variety that our ancestor had in a distant past.
Now, forgive me for my grammatical mistakes. I am Brazilian and I still struggle to do my best ;)
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I have so far been enjoying how aggressive the Bloodspeakers are in pushing their borders. What I would be interested to see is how far Melhed is willing to go to help push this expansion. It's hard to expand a religion entirely through peaceful means, yet I don't yet see Melhed as willing to use warfare as a tool to gain more influence for the faith. Not yet, anyway. Still they've impressed Lucius so far. He might just join up on of these days...
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We have a great coverage of our lands. The temple of Agyr will be a level 8 temple very soon. The Temple of Fronepu will be enlarged as well. We just don't have a temple in Mhed. Even in regions without temples we have 99% of followers and I sent the High Priest to try something in another realms. And I am seeing that we will have problems with The Golden Feather in the near future because of our expansion.
I am working now in the Wiki Page. I want more than followers. I want a true religion. And I am using many concepts of old gods of many civilizations. We have now a great concept after some preliminary reads about H.P. Lovecraft, his Elder Gods and The Cthulhu Mythos.
At some point, Melhed will have to fight. Not just because of The Bloodspeakers, but to survive as realm. I just hope that The Bloodspeakers can help in this process. I have a lot of ideas to work in Roleplays and to build something good. I would like to have more help from the players with good ideas.
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Ah, they joy of a religion that only has a pressence in one realm, how cute. I remember the days that the Golden Feather was like that, those times where easier then these days. Three realms to juggle with and keeping them all happy :(.
But, I welcome the "competition" from a players point of vieuw, finally something to plot against or with. From a characters point of vieuw, well you will see IC some time in the future :D
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I never create anything to be simple, easy or superficial. And for a start I can guarantee that the job was done very quickly. However, it's just the beginning. I am more concerned with create something solid than spread it everywhere just to have good numbers.
We will see what will happen. Mainly IC. Happily or unhappily, a religion (like a realm), need more people involved. And we know that many players are happy just with a letter to find a liege and after that, push some buttons and try to win. But the game is not about to win. It's about conflict. And in this perspective I've realized that we will have interesting clashes.
In fact, we're already having one ;)
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the blood speakers is really coming together now.
Good work.
Still i think it answers little philosophical questions, which is the goal of every religion.
Also, i know its intentionally a short of revival of the old gods, but i am personally of the opinion that bm and especialy melhed could use something new instead of cling to the old.
Perhaps maybe the feeling of beeing in a boring realm wanes after the coming elections for consul.
it's nice to have a heritage, but if that heritage never made the game really interesting, it should be tossed away i believe.
I am talking about the realm Melhed, <headline news>yes, it's boring</headline news>.
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I'll start working now on philosophical issues in the next RPs. And then I will add it to the Wiki. I'll take the weekend to write a little.
And let's see what will happen in Melhed, but the changes promise to be interesting. I believe we will have a pleasant surprise in the next Religion Spread.
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And let's see what will happen in Melhed, but the changes promise to be interesting.
exactly, I think alot will happen.
Shae has some intresting ambitions, if they will all come true, who knows.
But things will indeed get intresting.
If the NA wasn't so big and mean and didn't attack without a declaration, things would've been much more intresting.
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All religions can be said to have one thing in common. There is always an idea of the mystical experience. Unfortunately, due to prejudices, social norms, and advances in psychology, most of the time, these mystical experiences come off as bouts of insanity. Yet in Buddhism it's enlightenment, Zen has the perfect state of everything being in harmony. Abrahamic faiths have interactions with their deities, and those pure moments of faith in the impossible. The Upanishads has an understanding of Atman. Or, if you're really thinking, the idea of the One, and a weird interweaving of everything, but I find some of that hard to grasp when placed in comparison to some of the older religions like Greek (though I can sort of see it with Greek mythology) and Norse. If anyone has some free time, I recommend the Gospel According to Thomas (One of the books left out of the bible), because it's amazing as to how some of the passages sound like they came from Buddhist/Taoist texts.
Anyway, what my point here is, is that most religions have a few things in common. Ways to live, why to live this way, and a structure of beliefs to help guide people on this path. What most BM religions have, is deities, what they did, a creation myth, and an afterlife. There's so much more to it than that. If you can answer those three questions, you'll have a more fleshed out faith.
Also, while holidays are nice, most of the old religions (before a lot was phased out), apart from sacrifices, used toxins to bring themselves closer to their God/Gods. Even now, Christianity still uses wine, but drugs, alcohol, and special preparations of plants were quite common. Communionism was onto something in FEI when they used Ikrif to speak with the dead.
Also, a lesser known fact, that's commonly confused, if you're looking for an idea... Devil names, such as Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, etc... aren't all the same person. In actuality, each is a separate fallen being, and is considered a Prince of Hell in their own right. There are seven, one for each sin. Satan is wrath, Lucifer is pride, Beelzebub is gluttony, etc... etc...
I don't really have the time to spend developing a religion, but I'll be glad to help out if you need some small ideas from time to time. :)