BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Chenier on January 25, 2015, 12:24:11 AM
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Paisly
26600 CS of rogues
245 monsters for 23600 CS
165 undead for 3000 CS
Most rogue units are of 5 men or less.
Biggest monster force is 35 men (3050 CS)
Biggest undead force is is 60 men (2 of them at 1050 CS, one of them is travelling towards Port Raviel?)
Looks manageable to me. An archer-heavy force, the armies of a few realms, and over a few days these could be wiped off. Anyone who has any scout reports of western regions, feel free to share.
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49 monster units? Yowza!
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49 monster units? Yowza!
Huh?
29 monster+undead units, minus the undead unit that just crashed into Port Raviel, and another that moved out to Paisland.
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Huh?
29 monster+undead units, minus the undead unit that just crashed into Port Raviel, and another that moved out to Paisland.
So they do travel along sea routes?
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This is just one region. I wonder what rogue's overall military stats are.
So they do travel along sea routes?
Haven't you seen the constant huge battle reports from Mimer? :)
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Haven't you seen the constant huge battle reports from Mimer? :)
Oops :)
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So they do travel along sea routes?
Somewhat. Not sure what mechanics hold most of them back... maybe it's just monsters that stay back, and not undead? Maybe the game treats invasion-spawned and naturally-spawned differently? Don't know. A few rogues do cross, but just a small part.
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Somewhat. Not sure what mechanics hold most of them back... maybe it's just monsters that stay back, and not undead? Maybe the game treats invasion-spawned and naturally-spawned differently? Don't know.
You're overthinking this :)
A few rogues do cross, but just a small part.
That's all there is to it. A small, random amount are allowed to leave the monster-infested lands.
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You said were 249 monsters, most in groups of 5 or less. So, on average, ~50 units.
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You said were 249 monsters, most in groups of 5 or less. So, on average, ~50 units.
On average, yes, if there aren't any significantly larger units. Which there are.
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Unit Commander Realm Size/Type ca. CS Status
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 35 Monsters 3050 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 30 Monsters 2650 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 20 Monsters 1900 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 15 Monsters 1550 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 20 Monsters 1650 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 20 Monsters 1500 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 15 Monsters 1400 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 15 Monsters 1400 stationary
Undead Horde (nobody) (rogue) 60 Undead 1150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 1050 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 1000 stationary
Undead Horde (nobody) (rogue) 60 Undead 1050 moving out to Port Raviel
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 1000 stationary
Undead Horde (nobody) (rogue) 45 Undead 800 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 950 moving out to Paisland
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 800 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 750 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 600 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 450 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 400 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 300 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 125 stationary
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You said were 249 monsters, most in groups of 5 or less. So, on average, ~50 units.
13 out of 29 units have 5 men or less. A bit less than half, looked like a bit more than half when I first looked at it.
I'd gamble that the units spawn as bigger units, but starve over time.
Luria Nova could clear Paisly on their own, if they wanted to. I'm convinced that if the other regions are like this, reclaiming the coastal cities and townslands would be achievable.
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Oh, sure, post inaccurate information, and blame me for poor conclusions. ::)
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13 out of 29 units have 5 men or less. A bit less than half, looked like a bit more than half when I first looked at it.
I'd gamble that the units spawn as bigger units, but starve over time.
Luria Nova could clear Paisly on their own, if they wanted to. I'm convinced that if the other regions are like this, reclaiming the coastal cities and townslands would be achievable.
Holding them is the real challenge. Every day there's a battle, the fortifications cannot be repaired, so they decay over time. Sorties are required to provide some breathing room, but they leave the occupants with even more casualties than when they try to hold the walls.
Our best hope, I think, is for a region with short supply lines (Candiels) or with a donut region around it with intact fortifications (and no horde of monsters of itself).
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Can you find a region with forts still intact? i would have thought they'd all be home by now.
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Can you find a region with forts still intact? i would have thought they'd all be home by now.
That means the monsters actively raze fortifications? Or do they decay by themselves, even without battles occuring?
In any case, I mean to remember the monster invaders completed actual takeovers, so that would give them the walls, no?
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Can you find a region with forts still intact? i would have thought they'd all be home by now.
Libidizedd has some. Won't the monsters use them if you attack, though? None of the other cities, as far as I know, do.
Holding them is the real challenge. Every day there's a battle, the fortifications cannot be repaired, so they decay over time. Sorties are required to provide some breathing room, but they leave the occupants with even more casualties than when they try to hold the walls.
Our best hope, I think, is for a region with short supply lines (Candiels) or with a donut region around it with intact fortifications (and no horde of monsters of itself).
All coastal cities have their doughnuts. It's an interesting point, though, about the battles preventing wall repairs. The doughnuts would be much more important than I first realized. To fortify up Paisly, one would first need to secure Paisland...
Still doable, imo, if all regions have 20k CS or so, as long as many realms unite for it and there's no war in the background. We could totally set up a colony in Golden Farrow.
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Didn't Tim change that? I remember reading something about monsters not being able to use walls anymore.
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I dint think rogue forces use walls even in rogue regions. And yes, walls do slowly break down over time, even without battles in the region.
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Oh, sure, post inaccurate information, and blame me for poor conclusions. ::)
He already said there were large units there as well, so it was there to see.
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The odds keep stacking against us here. Good :D
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Never tell me the odds.
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Never tell me the odds.
Every forum thread should have at least one Star Wars reference!
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Every forum thread should have at least one Star Wars reference!
Dustin old buddy, you don't let me down.
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The four coastal cities of Candiels (1894gold), Paisly (1728gold), Golden Farrow (3086gold), and Eidulb (2159gold) have a population of 1 each so they would require a long time to recover. Candiels is too far south for any realm to make an attempt to retake besides Fissoa with D'Haran help.
Echiur and Darfix have the highest current populations but are on the far side of the continent and unreachable. Chateau Saffalore has a population of 1138 out of 16893 but would require securing the townsland of Saffalore (population 1) first and isn't a particularly wealthy city (943 gold) so it would have trouble supporting militia and other costs.
Excluding Echiur and Darfix, Libidizedd has the highest population with 4348 people (max pop. 37732) and would make a good capital for a colony to settle the west. It is reasonably wealthy (1905gold) as well. Across the cobalt gulf, you have the city of Eidulb and its townsland plus, the stronghold of Shrine of Seeklander directly to the north that would all have potential fortifications to help with resettling.
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Careful attention would need to be given to "support lines". How quickly allies can reach the colony would be critically important I think.
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After IG discussion the Isle of Libbidizzed (or however you write it :P) seems like the most viable target. Also because monsters can only reach it slowly through the sea routes. Settling on the mainland will be a lot more difficult.
Do we have any intel on the Isle? I know a Fissoan character is going to scout Candiels to have an idea, at least.
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After IG discussion the Isle of Libbidizzed (or however you write it :P) seems like the most viable target. Also because monsters can only reach it slowly through the sea routes. Settling on the mainland will be a lot more difficult.
Do we have any intel on the Isle? I know a Fissoan character is going to scout Candiels to have an idea, at least.
Libidizedd seems more isolated, because it's on an island, but it actually connects to more regions as it's not surrounded by a single doughnut region.
That being said, it might make for a better location. D'Hara, Luria, and Fissoa can sail to Mimer by Port Nebel. It also still has walls.
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Speaking from personal experience, Libidizedd is a great place. Also, that area around the original Astrum lands is incredibly well suited to defense. The problem you will really have is food. You still not be able to grow your own. It will be all import. If i were making the determination of a beachhead, Libidizedd is the way to go.
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Golden Farrow
25 monsters (wut?) for 7800 CS
Unit Commander Realm Size/Type ca. CS Status
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 10 Monsters 800 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 350 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 450 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) 5 Monsters 300 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 moving out to Eidulb
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 moving out to Eidulb
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 175 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 moving out to Eidulb
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 125 stationary
Monsters (nobody) (rogue) < 5 Monsters 150 stationary
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Now why wouldn't we able to beat that?
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Now why wouldn't we able to beat that?
The numbers in a region at any one time are likely not the issue. The speed with which they spawn and the waves they hit in, occasionally with larger numbers could wear down any attempt to hold. Since they wore down existing realms with decent infrastructure it is safe to assume the number in any one region are not the full picture.
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The numbers in a region at any one time are likely not the issue. The speed with which they spawn and the waves they hit in, occasionally with larger numbers could wear down any attempt to hold. Since they wore down existing realms with decent infrastructure it is safe to assume the number in any one region are not the full picture.
Except the realms in the area didn't so much get worn down as they just abandoned the area because we were basically told it would be impossible to resist.
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Except the realms in the area didn't so much get worn down as they just abandoned the area because we were basically told it would be impossible to resist.
And nothing code wise has changed.
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- If you're bored by fruitless global war go do something else.
- Cool. How about some PvE?
- Nope. That's not allowed because we want to make the game more fun for you. Why don't you throw a tournament every week instead like Atamarans do? They're having fun.
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And nothing code wise has changed.
Could you expand on that? The spawn rates were turned up for all of Dwilight for the invasion but then they were lowered again (at least in the East) after the west went rogue.
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Could you expand on that? The spawn rates were turned up for all of Dwilight for the invasion but then they were lowered again (at least in the East) after the west went rogue.
Monster spawns were tweaked in an attempt to make the west uninhabitable. There would be little point in that if they were tweaked back in the west such that realms could return once the hordes were dealt with.
- If you're bored by fruitless global war go do something else.
- Cool. How about some PvE?
- Nope. That's not allowed because we want to make the game more fun for you. Why don't you throw a tournament every week instead like Atamarans do? They're having fun.
I did not say they could not be changed back, just that they currently have not been. I was one of the few that campaigned against the Monster tweaks all those years ago that destroyed the PVE atmosphere of Dwilight just so we could have one more continent of player initiated wars and gang bangs. I was pointing out that whatever changes were made to drive people out of the west are currently still in place, thus any OOC planning needs to account for that despite what a few scout reports may show.
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I am not at all sure what this PvE craze is al about. The whole point of Battlemaster, in my mind, is that it is the best PvP game around. I love that my character's enemies are controlled by people and not AI code. Where is all of this "Forget warring with each other as the game intends! Lets tweak the game so we can battle AI controlled rouges!" coming from?
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I am not at all sure what this PvE craze is al about. The whole point of Battlemaster, in my mind, is that it is the best PvP game around. I love that my character's enemies are controlled by people and not AI code. Where is all of this "Forget warring with each other as the game intends! Lets tweak the game so we can battle AI controlled rouges!" coming from?
Thanks for sharing your opinion, mate. You almost managed not to imply that I am playing this game wrong. Almost.
Now back on topic.
We manage to hold Candiels for a while but it was a huge drain on resources. And when the final wave arrived it was absolutely overwhelming. I guess we won't be able to reclaim it unless monster spawning rates are decreased.
For the life of me I do not understand why the West is still closed. We did an experiment. It failed. Okay, let's move on. Why drag it on when we know it's bad?
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Thanks for sharing your opinion, mate. You almost managed not to imply that I am playing this game wrong. Almost.
Now back on topic.
We manage to hold Candiels for a while but it was a huge drain on resources. And when the final wave arrived it was absolutely overwhelming. I guess we won't be able to reclaim it unless monster spawning rates are decreased.
For the life of me I do not understand why the West is still closed. We did an experiment. It failed. Okay, let's move on. Why drag it on when we know it's bad?
You know what? You'r right. That came off more "what's wrong with you guys" than I intended or even felt. I apologize. I was really, honestly, plain curious. What draws me to BM is the PvP. It seems to me that the game was built from the ground up to facilitate great PvP. I am quite curious to understand the draw.
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You know what? You'r right. That came off more "what's wrong with you guys" than I intended or even felt. I apologize. I was really, honestly, plain curious. What draws me to BM is the PvP. It seems to me that the game was built from the ground up to facilitate great PvP. I am quite curious to understand the draw.
And there are many continents in which to experience that. There were two things that made Dwilight special, the first was SMA, which sadly is no longer as prevalent as it once was. The second was the frontier feel, constantly fighting the environment in order to simply survive, expeditions to carve out one more rogue region and then the struggle to hold it while infrastructure was built. I was not better, it was simply something that set the continent apart and made it for me the ONLY island I always had a character on.
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I get the frontier feeling draw. I remember when we left the realm of Giask to form Barca. It was a lot of fun. At the same time, it became even more fun for me when Aurvandil showed up to our south and tension started forming.
All the same, though I get the draw of striking out to the wild and starting a new realm but I don't see how it can be made something that we can keep doing again and again aside from regular serious monster invasions (like we just had) cropping up to clear out a huge chunk of land that can then be resettled. Some might be fine with it but others will feel frustrated if the invasion takes place on their half of the continent.
Even then, one of the things I like about the whole "go out and carve a realm from the wilderness" thing is that other players are doing the same and working with/against these other players and their new realms and seeing what relations form.
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Apology accepted and let me reciprocate. I shouldn't have gone so passive aggressive at your post.
If you are sincerely curious why PvE is enticing for certain players I will try to break it down. Don't get me wrong, PvP wars are super exciting. But it is just one facet of game. Take a look at Atamara - it's been a dead place for half a year (much longer for some realms). Dwilight moves in the same direction currently, Luria inevitably becoming a stabilizing superpower. Maybe it's not and I'm wrong, but adding more options, more stuff to do for realms is always a good thing and I can see no drawbacks.
Let's say Luria and the League strike a truce. What do we all do next? Sit on our hands. PvE is an option a realm can choose. See?
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I get the frontier feeling draw. I remember when we left the realm of Giask to form Barca. It was a lot of fun. At the same time, it became even more fun for me when Aurvandil showed up to our south and tension started forming.
All the same, though I get the draw of striking out to the wild and starting a new realm but I don't see how it can be made something that we can keep doing again and again aside from regular serious monster invasions (like we just had) cropping up to clear out a huge chunk of land that can then be resettled. Some might be fine with it but others will feel frustrated if the invasion takes place on their half of the continent.
Even then, one of the things I like about the whole "go out and carve a realm from the wilderness" thing is that other players are doing the same and working with/against these other players and their new realms and seeing what relations form.
You only have to look to the early history of the west, and the struggle to maintain realms there to understand the longevity the old monster spawn code presented. I've lost count of how many times people tried to settle Darfix back then.
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What is lacking is an equilibrium. We went from having too many monsters to colonize even small parts of the west (heck, of any part of Dwilight at all), to having too few monsters to prevent us from colonizing it all.
Though I'd point out that when we colonized it all, we had a lot more nobles. Even if we turned back rogue levels considerably down, there's no way Dwi realms could push too far out with current noble levels. The low density would kill any attempts to expand past a few core regions.
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Apology accepted and let me reciprocate. I shouldn't have gone so passive aggressive at your post.
If you are sincerely curious why PvE is enticing for certain players I will try to break it down. Don't get me wrong, PvP wars are super exciting. But it is just one facet of game. Take a look at Atamara - it's been a dead place for half a year (much longer for some realms). Dwilight moves in the same direction currently, Luria inevitably becoming a stabilizing superpower. Maybe it's not and I'm wrong, but adding more options, more stuff to do for realms is always a good thing and I can see no drawbacks.
Let's say Luria and the League strike a truce. What do we all do next? Sit on our hands. PvE is an option a realm can choose. See?
Makes sense. I also see no harm in having PvE as an option and i value the NPC monsters and undead when growing a new character and often wish they would spawn more often (especially when I find myself in a peaceful realm). The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?
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Perhaps some kind of algorithm that bases spawn rates on player density and spawn locations on existing rouge lands? The idea being that having player count drop would automatically cause an increase in spawning and the tendency to spawn near rouge regions might result in contiguous chunks being taken by the rouges. As player count decreases, rouge presence increases and more lands occupied by rouges (centered around the first region to fall to rouges). As players come back the spawn rates drop allowing players to reclaim some of that land.
Then again... probably not.
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Makes sense. I also see no harm in having PvE as an option and i value the NPC monsters and undead when growing a new character and often wish they would spawn more often (especially when I find myself in a peaceful realm). The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?
That wasn't a complaint when hordes were strong. For a long time, there were huge hordes between all of the realms, and few could interact with each other. When they were close enough, they'd usually fight to the death to compete for colonization rights. Nobody complained "we don't have enough PvP!".
PvE had always been a huge deal for BT and Dwi. Don't like PvE? Stay on FEI, EI, AT, SI, or colonies. Even BT is pretty much only PvP now.
On the other hand, human wars on Dwi have always generated a ton of complaints. Dwi's geography sucks for PvP. When it wasn't the North's inability to act in the South, it was the word's inability to act against Luria, or really just about anything else. Few PvP conflicts on Dwilight resulted in fun for all participants.
What BM needs is for PvE to return to the continent it was famous for. Dwilight needs new monster spawn mechanics that will allow for PvE in a significant manner. Dump monster spawn points in Chrysantalys, Via, Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, and Balance's Retreat. Turn down all other rogue spawning to normal levels. Make these regions spawn rogues once per week, every week, but in massive numbers. Make rogues travel every single turn. And thus let Dwi realms return to what they were happy doing for most of Dwi's history. Fight monsters and each other over colonization rights.
Boost gold value of the west and add new mechanics to repopulate regions, though.
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What is lacking is an equilibrium. We went from having too many monsters to colonize even small parts of the west (heck, of any part of Dwilight at all), to having too few monsters to prevent us from colonizing it all.
Though I'd point out that when we colonized it all, we had a lot more nobles. Even if we turned back rogue levels considerably down, there's no way Dwi realms could push too far out with current noble levels. The low density would kill any attempts to expand past a few core regions.
However, having those low monster spawns allowed us to have realms like Barca, Asylon, Terran, Kabrinskia, Niselur, etc. that were highly active and fun to be in. If someone has the historical record of the Dwilight map for the last 2-3 years, I can bet you that the map of the west was far more volatile than that in the east. It constantly was in flux, with first one realm then another gaining the upper hand. Barca was just the latest of those realms.
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Perhaps some kind of algorithm that bases spawn rates on player density and spawn locations on existing rouge lands? The idea being that having player count drop would automatically cause an increase in spawning and the tendency to spawn near rouge regions might result in contiguous chunks being taken by the rouges. As player count decreases, rouge presence increases and more lands occupied by rouges (centered around the first region to fall to rouges). As players come back the spawn rates drop allowing players to reclaim some of that land.
IIRC the monster code already kinda-sorta does this. Rogue lands generate more rogue groups than player-controlled lands.
Not only that, but monster rates are also influenced by adventurers. Lands patrolled and hunted by adventurers will generate fewer monster/undead groups. Rogue lands will tend to be less-hunted, due to lack of bounties, and advies tending to get caught more often in them. That's another reason rogue lands will generate more rogue groups.
There are probably various ways that spawning and rogue group behavior could be tailored to provide a different experience for Dwilight than for other islands. I know that Anaris and I had talked a while back about a simple four or five step monster logic routine that would allow monsters to react to the situation around them, rather than just make dumb/random moves.
Anyway, any changes like that are a big decision that can't be made lightly.
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The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?
Again, having a character on Atamara I do not see any merit in this argument.
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Old Dwilight was not impossible to colonize. Everguard did it. We took ~15 of us, left Morek, and started way off in the wilderness of Valkyrja. Did really well to be honest. Only reason we fell was a particularly harsh winter and monster hordes ravaging us, leaving us too weak to resist an Astrumese invasion... not to mention our poor diplomacy, but no one would have been able to save us even if we had allies.
IIRC, not long after Everguard was destroyed the monster spawn rates were dialed down because they were apparently too difficult. Psh.
I think boosting gold values in the west could be a good incentive, but I do not believe there are too many monsters. Fighting a battle where victory is uncertain is far more exciting than slow prolonged slogs.
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However, having those low monster spawns allowed us to have realms like Barca, Asylon, Terran, Kabrinskia, Niselur, etc. that were highly active and fun to be in. If someone has the historical record of the Dwilight map for the last 2-3 years, I can bet you that the map of the west was far more volatile than that in the east. It constantly was in flux, with first one realm then another gaining the upper hand. Barca was just the latest of those realms.
Actually, in the east there were Raivan Empire, Libero Empire, Summerdale, Morek, Xinhai, Averoth and Thulsoma all in the northeast (from Valkyrja down to Donghaiwei). There were 3 or 4 different Lurian realms after Pian en Luries fractured, that was cool. There was also Corsanctum (which I miss :() and its short-lived colony Aurora; there was also Aquilegia over in Flowrestown. In the west was Astrum, Niselur (fell to rebellion & monsters, got re-founded, I stopped playing, rebellion happened which lead to the Niselur you remember), Caerwyn (backstabbed Astrum, got wiped out) and Asylon (colony of Caerwyn). And that's just the northern half of the west; I never played in the south with Terran, Barca, Madina, etc. Probably a plus because I never really had to deal with the daemons, either.
So actually, before the spawns got lowered the game was still extremely vibrant in both the east and the west; low monster spawns didn't have anything to do with it. And like Constantine said, based on experience playing in high-spawn rate Dwilight and normal-spawn rate Atamara, I feel like Dwilight had more action against monsters and otherwise.
And everything BarticaBoat just said, except Everguard predates me. Niselur only fell the first time because of bad banking, and a rebellion. Were they really dialed down after Everguard? Because if so, they got dialed down *again* some time after the first Niselur.
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Old Dwilight was not impossible to colonize. Everguard did it. We took ~15 of us, left Morek, and started way off in the wilderness of Valkyrja. Did really well to be honest. Only reason we fell was a particularly harsh winter and monster hordes ravaging us, leaving us too weak to resist an Astrumese invasion... not to mention our poor diplomacy, but no one would have been able to save us even if we had allies.
IIRC, not long after Everguard was destroyed the monster spawn rates were dialed down because they were apparently too difficult. Psh.
I think boosting gold values in the west could be a good incentive, but I do not believe there are too many monsters. Fighting a battle where victory is uncertain is far more exciting than slow prolonged slogs.
That would be the point. Old Dwilight was difficult, and mistakes often resulted in harsh consequences. It was in my opinion fun, and lead to constant colony attempts, many ill fated from the start. Those that planned well and executed the plan were rewarded with a success and then the constant fight to hold the borders.
The system in place now is NOT the old spawn system. It is a system that was designed to force well established realms out of the west.
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Actually, in the east there were Raivan Empire, Libero Empire, Summerdale, Morek, Xinhai, Averoth and Thulsoma all in the northeast (from Valkyrja down to Donghaiwei). There were 3 or 4 different Lurian realms after Pian en Luries fractured, that was cool. There was also Corsanctum (which I miss :() and its short-lived colony Aurora; there was also Aquilegia over in Flowrestown. In the west was Astrum, Niselur (fell to rebellion & monsters, got re-unded, I stopped playing, rebellion happened which lead to the Niselur you remember), Caerwyn (backstabbed Astrum, got wiped out) and Asylon (colony of Caerwyn). And that's just the northern half of the west; I never played in the south with Terran, Barca, Madina, etc. Probably a plus because I never really had to deal with the daemons, either.
So actually, before the spawns got lowered the game was still extremely vibrant in both the east and the west; low monster spawns didn't have anything to do with it. And like Constantine said, based on experience playing in high-spawn rate Dwilight and normal-spawn rate Atamara, I feel like Dwilight had more action against monsters and otherwise.
And everything BarticaBoat just said, except Everguard predates me. Niselur only fell the first time because of bad banking, and a rebellion. Were they really dialed down after Everguard? Because if so, they got dialed down *again* some time after the first Niselur.
You're acting like I wasn't around for all of those. I was. I was a part of Xinhai when they were fighting whatever incarnation of the Flowrestown realm was around at the time, then they got declared on by Libero Empire and Raivan Empire. I marched all the way back to Xinhai from down south in time to confront the Libero army, then we proceded to roflstomp the Raivan Empire after the Libero Empire pulled out of the war. I actually made Marshal at one point, and trained under the Ordermarshal of the time, the well respected Bustoarsenzio Peristaltico. I even wrote a strategy for troops usage for the Dwilight University. My character, Gustav, was part of the crusade against the Saxons in the north, and joined Allison to form Kabrinskia in the Crusade against Caerwyn.
If you aren't aware, this is the same person who played Gustav Kuriga and was Gustav Kuriga in the forums.
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The only place were PvE is still viable is in the western section of Dwilight, bringing us back to the initial topic. So when do we set sail? :)
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The only place were PvE is still viable is in the western section of Dwilight, bringing us back to the initial topic. So when do we set sail? :)
When this war is over? Assuming, from what I believe I read, Luria's addition to these efforts in the West are required. If D'Hara and Fissoa can do it on their own, I guess nothing should stop them if this is what they really want.
Besides, considering this entire thing, if the goal is to colonize parts of the West (if that is even possible), would that not make this current war kind of moot?
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If you aren't aware, this is the same person who played Gustav Kuriga and was Gustav Kuriga in the forums.
Ah! No wonder I didn't recognize you. I assumed you had joined the game more recently since I didn't recognize the user name.
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High risk, high reward, that's as it should be.
Those who want it safe from the hordes and focus on internal politics can play in Luria. Those who want PvE constant battles could join those who focus West.
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Just tone down the monsters in the West, jack up the monster spawn in the East and have everyone make a mad dash back West to try and create new colonies.
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This thread is really making me want to write up a cohesive feature request for dynamic monsters; in fact, I think I may. I don't know when it would ever be implemented if approved, but I do think it'd make for a really constructive thread and someday benefit more than just Dwilight.
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It might be interesting for Dwilight, but would not be appropriate anywhere else.
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It might be interesting for Dwilight, but would not be appropriate anywhere else.
I would contend that it would be appropriate for Beluaterra as well, but I do see your point. It's probably a lot of work for something that wouldn't see the light of day in the main game.
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Dump monster spawn points in Chrysantalys, Via, Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, and Balance's Retreat. Turn down all other rogue spawning to normal levels. Make these regions spawn rogues once per week, every week, but in massive numbers. Make rogues travel every single turn when they don't fight a battle.
Swordfell already has walls in Balance's Retreat, an economy, and a very rich region out of harm's way. They could contain the spawn. They don't involve themselves in any PvP anyways. Otherwise, well all hell could break loose, just as it used to be. The eastern realms would once more have to consider the monsters. In the West, the spawn points would make it so holding regions far from them would be easier, and it'd get progressively harder to hold onto regions closer to the spawn points.
Alternatively, it could just be all of the mountain regions. These always were monster hotspots anyways.
Bring back PvE in a high-risk high-reward formula!
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Dump monster spawn points in Chrysantalys, Via, Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, and Balance's Retreat. Turn down all other rogue spawning to normal levels. Make these regions spawn rogues once per week, every week, but in massive numbers. Make rogues travel every single turn when they don't fight a battle.
Swordfell already has walls in Balance's Retreat, an economy, and a very rich region out of harm's way. They could contain the spawn. They don't involve themselves in any PvP anyways. Otherwise, well all hell could break loose, just as it used to be. The eastern realms would once more have to consider the monsters. In the West, the spawn points would make it so holding regions far from them would be easier, and it'd get progressively harder to hold onto regions closer to the spawn points.
Alternatively, it could just be all of the mountain regions. These always were monster hotspots anyways.
Bring back PvE in a high-risk high-reward formula!
Monster Spawn points? Any region is a spawn point. What you are suggesting is not just a tweak of what exists, but a complete change to the code. "Hotspots" as you call them were never intentionally coded it, they where simply a result of the system and the position of inhabited lands.
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Monster Spawn points? Any region is a spawn point. What you are suggesting is not just a tweak of what exists, but a complete change to the code. "Hotspots" as you call them were never intentionally coded it, they where simply a result of the system and the position of inhabited lands.
"Complete change to code" sounds overly dramatic. It does not seem to me like it would take all that much code to do so.
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"Complete change to code" sounds overly dramatic. It does not seem to me like it would take all that much code to do so.
Spoken from your vast knowledge of what the current code is and how it works?
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"Complete change to code" sounds overly dramatic. It does not seem to me like it would take all that much code to do so.
Every time I hear a client say something like this I know we're looking at a minimum of 8 weeks and $250K in billing.
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How is it built programmatically now? Does each region have a % chance on each turn change to get an increase in monster or undead level and then when that level hits a threshold a group spawns?
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Spoken from your vast knowledge of what the current code is and how it works?
How then was the amount of monster spawns ramped up in western Dwilight?
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How then was the amount of monster spawns ramped up in western Dwilight?
There is a whole heap going on there, including finer grained control over how monster groups move.
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There is a whole heap going on there, including finer grained control over how monster groups move.
Yes, the invasion was coded complicated.
That doesn't mean that my proposal would need to be coded complicated. There's already different versions of monster-spawning code that can be re-used, after all.
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OK, this is getting silly.
First, let me get this out of the way, because it is important:
Chénier, your idea is an interesting one, and I won't rule it out.
BUT
Please, for the love of Tom and Great Cthulhu, stop making assumptions about how easy or hard something is going to be to code, especially after someone who actually has access to the code has contradicted your stated assumptions.
I don't care if you think X is going to be something that takes 3 hours of coding, or that Y is something that will take 3 months. When you post stuff like you've been doing here, you just sound both ignorant and arrogant, which is a very bad combination.
There are cases where the amount of work required to do something weighs heavily in the decision as to whether to do it at all, but in almost all of those cases, the change would be a) extremely easy (a few minutes' worth of work, plus maybe some debugging or balancing time), b) extremely hard (completely rewriting major components of the game), or c) something that, in the developers' opinions, is of little enough benefit to the game that it should only get done if it falls into category (a). (And it doesn't.)
So, for that vast middle ground, where things are neither trivial, nor borderline suicidal, nor mostly pointless, the decision on whether or not to do them will most likely be made based on the merits of the idea. (The decision on when to do them might very well be based on how long they'll take, though.)
Thus, unless you have a strong reason to believe an idea falls into one of those categories, don't even bother mentioning how long you think it will take. And if someone who should know tells you it doesn't fall into one of them, please don't argue about it.
Because you don't have access to the code, and thus cannot reasonably assess the complexity of any given task on it, whether or not you personally have the programming skill to perform the task yourself.
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Yes, the invasion was coded complicated.
That doesn't mean that my proposal would need to be coded complicated. There's already different versions of monster-spawning code that can be re-used, after all.
I'll rephrase. I can quite quickly hack in this functionality however it
- Will not be flexible
- Will not be extendible
- Will not provide useful feedback for debugging
- Will be rigid in implementation such that the system can not adjust spawns in response to measured results. In other words someone will have to be constantly tweaking magic numbers until we hit that sweat spot where the spawns are a challenge but not impossible to beat. Likely even if we hit that spot before the forums explode with complaints about how far off the mark we are, it will need to be adjusted constantly as the infrastructure and capacity of the colonies changes.
- Will be static with no emergent qualities and thus be completely open to exploits by players with the knowledge and time to do so
- Like most quick changes we make, will likely have unforeseen implications.
As this feature is supposed to be about a long term objective and provide fun long term, it was my belief we either do it right or we don't bother at all. The western Dwilight code was simply meant to overwhelm anything and everything thus is relatively simple, balance was simply not a consideration.
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Though I'd point out that when we colonized it all, we had a lot more nobles. Even if we turned back rogue levels considerably down, there's no way Dwi realms could push too far out with current noble levels. The low density would kill any attempts to expand past a few core regions.
Yeah Morek can't colonize anything, and there is no reason why we would except out of boredom I guess. Morek is pretty much the land of honey, I've made more gold in one tax than I did in multiple months last year in Barca. We have lots of regions and estates, come join us non-DWI people!
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Yeah Morek can't colonize anything, and there is no reason why we would except out of boredom I guess. Morek is pretty much the land of honey, I've made more gold in one tax than I did in multiple months last year in Barca. We have lots of regions and estates, come join us non-DWI people!
And if that realm split up so that everyone could raise their taxes to a better level just think how much gold they would make! I don't advocate that though. I found an old map I drew when Dwilight first opened. It has Morek Drawn out almost exactly as it is now and I remember being told I was crazy to even think that was possible. Morek Rocks.
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Seriously, you want a realm that will fatten up your purse? Join Morek! We will also gladly welcome any RP, seriously, please post some RP.
I'm terrible at RPing :(