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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Nosferatus on October 07, 2012, 01:42:45 PM
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My character was recently removed from his position as banker because of asking a lord of a region to be active.
It did not mention what incident this is about and what the titans mean with asking to be active.
I do recall my character aksing a lord not to ignore him for weeks and either buy food offers or apoint a steward, which he eventually did.
I cannot recall anything else that could have caused this.
I find it rather strange and lack a decent explanation.
Atleast the magistrates explain everything, the titans aparently don't.
Can we give more detailed explanations to the effected player if a titan makes a decision in the future? and can i have my explanation on my individual case?
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Yes that is one of the disadvantages of the Titan system. We really need to unify these. But for that the Magistrate system needs to move faster, right now it is a bogged-down court that it should have never been.
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Do we want to go ahead and disaband the titan system? I like the magistrates, although it may be better to assign 5 randomly to any one particular case, and maybe have post moderation on the thread (meaning, posts don't appear for non-mods until they are reviewed and approved).
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Basically, yes. But there are a few tweaks needed first, some code to be finished.
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Magistrates work way faster than I've ever seen the Titans work at...
Titans have a reason to be, imo, but only for cheating, and not for violations of the social contract, because magistrates don't have tools to check for cheating and such checks shouldn't be publicly displayed as they are with the magistrates.
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Magistrates work way faster than I've ever seen the Titans work at...
I've actually seen the Titans work a lot more than you have.
Aside from periods when there were only 1 or 2 Titans active, they tend to get through issues much, much faster than the Magistrates, by and large.
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I've actually seen the Titans work a lot more than you have.
Aside from periods when there were only 1 or 2 Titans active, they tend to get through issues much, much faster than the Magistrates, by and large.
I did not witness everything. But I have never witnessed the titans take as much time as almost all of the titan cases I witnessed.
Sure, the sample is old, but it wasn't just one particular month either, but a couple of years.
In any case, 5 days, on the game's pace, seems quite reasonnable by me.
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5 days can be an eternity. When you wait for a cute girl to call you back, for example. :-)
I'm putting down a foot here and giving targets that I think are reasonable:
- An obvious case should be resolved within 2 days
- Most cases should be resolved within 4-5 days
- No case should take longer than 14 days, no matter how much discussion and questions/answers it requires
"obvious" is the tricky word there that I can't define, basically I mean cases where you take one look and you just know it. Like someone posting "I want everyone to log in 10 minutes prior to the turn tomorrow!" (#1 IR violations don't get any more clear than that) or someone complaining about the judge banning his favorite character with a reasonable IC reason (clearly not a violation of the IR or Social Contract).
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Yes that is one of the disadvantages of the Titan system. We really need to unify these. But for that the Magistrate system needs to move faster, right now it is a bogged-down court that it should have never been.
All you really need to do is lock the magistrate case threads quicker. As is, they just go on and on despite devolving into pointless nitpicking and the facts of the case have already been brought up multiple times.
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5 days can be an eternity. When you wait for a cute girl to call you back, for example. :-)
I'm putting down a foot here and giving targets that I think are reasonable:
- An obvious case should be resolved within 2 days
- Most cases should be resolved within 4-5 days
- No case should take longer than 14 days, no matter how much discussion and questions/answers it requires
"obvious" is the tricky word there that I can't define, basically I mean cases where you take one look and you just know it. Like someone posting "I want everyone to log in 10 minutes prior to the turn tomorrow!" (#1 IR violations don't get any more clear than that) or someone complaining about the judge banning his favorite character with a reasonable IC reason (clearly not a violation of the IR or Social Contract).
IMHO, we have not had any obvious cases.
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I've actually seen the Titans work a lot more than you have.
Aside from periods when there were only 1 or 2 Titans active, they tend to get through issues much, much faster than the Magistrates, by and large.
That would be why they rejected an issue I raised about a player being abusive and attempting to use the Titans as weapons because it was "too old, resubmit if still relevant". This was a couple of months back, and I only got that response something like 2-3 months after I filed the original report.
Not to mention the fact that when I filed an SMA report on Dwilight (and I apologise if those aren't dealt with by the Titans), it was rejected with something along the lines of "stop being so anal". I'm sorry - last I checked the feature was there to report a potential breach of SMA. Give me the Magistrates any day - it's better than being ignored or insulted by nameless, faceless individuals even if it takes longer.
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5 days can be an eternity. When you wait for a cute girl to call you back, for example. :-)
I'm putting down a foot here and giving targets that I think are reasonable:
- An obvious case should be resolved within 2 days
- Most cases should be resolved within 4-5 days
- No case should take longer than 14 days, no matter how much discussion and questions/answers it requires
"obvious" is the tricky word there that I can't define, basically I mean cases where you take one look and you just know it. Like someone posting "I want everyone to log in 10 minutes prior to the turn tomorrow!" (#1 IR violations don't get any more clear than that) or someone complaining about the judge banning his favorite character with a reasonable IC reason (clearly not a violation of the IR or Social Contract).
Sounds reasonnable.
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i agree with Toms ideas.
However i'd still like to know why my character lost its position as Banker.
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I think there was a complaint involving a region lord where food was piling up and the banker asked the lord to sell it and the lord was semi-inactive and the banker complained about that. Could it have been that?
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I think there was a complaint involving a region lord where food was piling up and the banker asked the lord to sell it and the lord was semi-inactive and the banker complained about that. Could it have been that?
I think so, given the other threads I have read.
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I think there was a complaint involving a region lord where food was piling up and the banker asked the lord to sell it and the lord was semi-inactive and the banker complained about that. Could it have been that?
perhaps it could be that event.(allthough i think it was not food pilling up but rather food beeing bought to feed the city)
But since when can't bankers complain about that?
Thats what bankers do don't they?
make sure the realm does not starve.
It's not that the lord was punished or excluded somehow from his function.
My character just asked him to sell the food or apoint a steward and then complained about it when he didnt, eventuelly he apointed a steward and the problem was resolved.
I don't see why this should mean a titan intervenes this harshly. or even at all.
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Thats what bankers do don't they?
make sure the realm does not starve.
Realms don't starve. Regions do. Regions are the responsibility of the lord.
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Realms don't starve. Regions do. Regions are the responsibility of the lord.
Yes practically its the lords, yet Dunnera had a Law that says the royal treasurer was "To order the sale of food throughout the realm in order to prevent starvation only."
And also "To work with foreign dignitaries in establishing a food trade, should the realm consume more food than it produces", thusly Davis was autorized and even acted out of duty to order for the food beeing bought.
Again when no food was bought, Davis just complained and eventually the lord apointed a steward.
I don't really see where Davis overstepped to be removed from his position by titans.
As he didn't state anything like if you don't buy the food within this time line then you will be fined or punished or what not.
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Realms don't starve. Regions do. Regions are the responsibility of the lord.
Right...
This makes a lot more sense in realms with positive balances. In realms with negative balances, especially if serious chronic deficits, not so much. If the import needs are too great, you eventually need to coordinate.
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I believe the problem, in this case, was not so much that the banker was complaining about the movement of food, but that he was complaining that the movement of food was not happening because a Lord was inactive, and suggesting that another Lord should replace him.
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I believe the problem, in this case, was not so much that the banker was complaining about the movement of food, but that he was complaining that the movement of food was not happening because a Lord was inactive, and suggesting that another Lord should replace him.
If he's not doing his job, he's not doing his job... Inactivity isn't an excuse for that, as was stated multiple times.
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If he's not doing his job, he's not doing his job... Inactivity isn't an excuse for that, as was stated multiple times.
Which means that complaining that he's not doing his job is fine. As long as you're not making it about inactivity.
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That's the problem with the titan system. With magistrates the relevant messages could be posted for everyone to read.
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That's the problem with the titan system. With magistrates the relevant messages could be posted for everyone to read.
Yea, titans are good for cheating and SMA violations, magistrates are better for breach of social contract.
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the other problem is that you don't KNOW who the titans are.
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Does it matter?
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Yea, titans are good for cheating and SMA violations, magistrates are better for breach of social contract.
the other problem is that you don't KNOW who the titans are.
I... disagree with both of these.
First, we receive way less complaints about Titan judgements than Magistrate judgements. Maybe one in thirty? One in fourty? The Titans handle way more cases -- at a higher rate -- than the Magistrates... even with their periods of inactivity.
Second, given the above, why does who they are matter at all?
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I... disagree with both of these.
First, we receive way less complaints about Titan judgements than Magistrate judgements. Maybe one in thirty? One in fourty? The Titans handle way more cases -- at a higher rate -- than the Magistrates... even with their periods of inactivity.
Second, given the above, why does who they are matter at all?
You can't compare feedback rate to a secret court with a public court... Lack of complaints doesn't mean satisfaction, either.
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Does it matter?
I think his point is for cases like his, unless you want to make the magistrate q and a area to include for titans, you have no where and no one to ask about your case. Also, magistrates you can defend yourself, from what I am hearing with Titans, someone complains and there is maybe some investigation, and then they decide- without the person being complained about able to defend himself or herself.
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Titans can ask the defendant for evidence if they want; I think it happens less often then with magistrate cases (since magistrates always give the opportunity for the defendant to speak, this has to be the case).
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Titans have the ability to investigate issues on their own. If PlayerA complains that PlayerB said "don't go to the tournament", the Titans can go look and see.
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I think the problem is that the titans don't have any accountability. At least not any that is able to be independently verifiable as not being biased.
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I think the problem is that the titans don't have any accountability. At least not any that is able to be independently verifiable as not being biased.
They have. It is called Tom.
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<.<
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I think the problem is that the titans don't have any accountability. At least not any that is able to be independently verifiable as not being biased.
They have. It is called Tom.
And if you don't trust Tom, you may as well leave now, because he always holds the power of life and death over your characters, realms, religions, and everything else in the game.
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They have. It is called Tom.
And if you don't trust Tom, you may as well leave now, because he always holds the power of life and death over your characters, realms, religions, and everything else in the game.
I'm pretty sure Tom is a nice guy but you only have to have a look at the Barony of Makar's recruitment centers to know he isn't impartial...
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I'm pretty sure Tom is a nice guy but you only have to have a look at the Barony of Makar's recruitment centers to know he isn't impartial...
From what I was told, other realms also had godly RCs back in the days. They just ended up losing them. That's part of the perks of being in an isolated corner of the world with few neighbors, I guess.
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I'm pretty sure Tom is a nice guy but you only have to have a look at the Barony of Makar's recruitment centers to know he isn't impartial...
Certainly not. On the other hand, they are horribly expensive.
But plugging down 2 RCs, or giving OT a special "unit morale" option (torture instead of entertainment, in case you were wondering) has nothing to do with checking on the Titans.
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Well the downside of a anoimous titans is that i cannot ask the right person why he really judged what he judged.
I didnt receive a good explantion of what this is about and i still don't understand why it happened because i am a firm suporter of the IR and especialy the rule to protect people who are less active.
I am also not very active my self and miss a whole turn every day and regulary a whole day.
I cannot login everyday and i wouldn't want to punish people who can't either.
What happened with the banker is that i suggested the Kign to eventually replace him for various reasons, but not inactvity.
He ignored letters and requests for more then weeks, not only of me but of others, like the King and judge to.
If he didn't wnat to reply or deliberaly did so i do not know as a player but it was enough for my character to call him a burden for the realm instead of asset.
Davis suggested to the King to replace him and apoint someone else because he felt Aiden had not a dedicated heart and deliberatley ignored people.
Part of the reason Davis sad that is because he had issues with Aiden even during the Caligan time.
That is not against the social contract or any other rule or request.
So if its not this than what is it?
PS, if this shouldn't be discused here just tell me and i will discuss it privatley with Tom or whom ever i need to speak with.
I am glad this will improve in the future, but for now i want to know why such harsh punishments where used and for what was it used?
It seems noone, even Tom exactly knows.
That is why its not very handy for me right now that the Titans are unknown.
They cannot contact me and i cannot contact them.
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No, you are right, and these are some of the reasons I set up the Magistrates as an alternative.
And I think they are the better system, though improvements can be made. Most importantly, there is a bit of code we need to write before the Magistrates can replace the Titans. And with our usual endless TODO list...