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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Eduardo Almighty on May 04, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
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Noble has left
The player of Ryu has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
The ruler should appoint a new General.
Karbala is now without a lord.
Congratulations to those who worked so hard to lose another excellent player. I honestly think someone deserves congratulations, after all. It echoed so badly that more than one player are thinking of leaving the game after the end of this war or even before.
It will probably be deleted pretty quickly, but it's a shame to have our General who never lost a battle stopped by OOC crap.
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Why is it that EC currently has an influx of OOC toxic atmosphere in many realms?
In OI and Perdan it was due to arguments with a group of returning players.
Now I read here from Sirion accusations of OOC bullying as well.
We lost two players as well due to this, at least they did not leave the game though.
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I am angry and deeply ashamed of what happened and with a system that protects the anonymous and publicly punish and ashame the accused. This is completely ridiculous. I'm not so sad for Ryu leaving the game. I am sad to know that there is some silent coward playing with me. I'm sad for how this becomes a powerful tool for any coward who want to !@#$ good players to ashame them with any crap.
This against the Social Contract? I don't care, playing a game or not, I'm still a man.
Fill your silent and cowardly complaint and make my day.
Eduardo
Just how I'm feeling today. It's still hard to believe and accept it. Also, we already lost a character and the entire moral we had to fight this war. This is a shame.
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Why did Ryu leave the game?
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I am angry and deeply ashamed of what happened and with a system that protects the anonymous and publicly punish and ashame the accused. This is completely ridiculous. I'm not so sad for Ryu leaving the game. I am sad to know that there is some silent coward playing with me. I'm sad for how this becomes a powerful tool for any coward who want to !@#$ good players to ashame them with any crap.
This against the Social Contract? I don't care, playing a game or not, I'm still a man.
Fill your silent and cowardly complaint and make my day.
Eduardo
Just how I'm feeling today. It's still hard to believe and accept it. Also, we already lost a character and the entire moral we had to fight this war. This is a shame.
Please explain what system you are referencing that protects the anonymous and publicly punishes and shames the accused.
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In this case, the Titans.
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In this case, the Titans.
OOC issues rampant it seems. I don't mind gray messages I seldom read them, but the flux I have got recently have got me reading them and they seem nasty. I particularly think its a bit of the toxicness from this ice that just hasn't spilled it out of our systems just yet, if ever.
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OOC issues rampant it seems. I don't mind gray messages I seldom read them, but the flux I have got recently have got me reading them and they seem nasty. I particularly think its a bit of the toxicness from this ice that just hasn't spilled it out of our systems just yet, if ever.
I have read the announcements. They mention the who one violated the rules recently and then clarify the rules for future reference. I don't see it as public shaming and I am done on arguing for today.
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I'm confused. As usual. ???
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Honestly, I'm not stressing about it anymore. I have my opinion and in this case it is enough for me.
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Honestly, I'm not stressing about it anymore. I have my opinion and in this case it is enough for me.
That is good to hear. I am not trying to argue when I say this and feel free to keep to your opinion, but the Titans are not trying to publicly shame him, but clarify on the situation. As well, there has been some news on the issue. Check it out here (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5698.0.html)
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Unfortunately, this is not the first time I have seen someone get a public (or even private) warning reminding them of the rules that they recently broke, and take that as a deep personal insult and leave the game.
Personally, I think such behaviour is about as extreme an overreaction as you can get. I can somewhat understand feeling that you were unjustly convicted, but I don't see how that justifies leaving the game over a simple reminder "this is a rule, please follow it in future."
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What rule was broken?
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This is terrible. Ryu asked his military council to get the armies with less archers. No one was ordered, no one was asked, nothing. Marshals were asked to find a way to have less archers and more of the rest, that is it. Then you just went away and blocked him, cause Titans have this "block first, ignore later" strategy that gets people pissed off enough to leave. It happened to Juan, it happened to me about some other nonsense like this, and surely many many others. This also leaves a lot of room for suspicion, as arguments often are weak or really apart from the situation at hand.
I do believe Juan got protested by several people on porpouse, OOC tricks like this have happened before. Maybe multi accounts are harder to pull today, but there are others.
Juan got involved, spent a lot of time trying to improve his realm, was incredibly active and enjoyed it a lot. He has his ways, but by no means he disrupts the game, rather tries to flesh out the strategical angle of it, one that I enjoy a lot. In pay, he gets blocked by a message that someone mistakenly thought could be asking someone to ask someone to change his type of unit.
Personally, I am trying to figure out if I keep playing or not. The Titan's repeated actions have made me lose confidence in the overall fairness of everything, and I cannot say I trust their impartiality at all anymore.
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Wow, you must believe the Titans are bunch of utter morons, incapable of doing even the slightest bit of due diligence. Do you think the Titans are just some kind of rubber stamp that hands out punishments for every issue that crosses their desk? "Oh look a report, let's slap on an account lock without even looking at the issue in any way, shape, or form! Woohoo!" That they don't do even the most basic investigation to determine what happened? That perhaps something happened to which you, personally, were not a party?
You must think your fellow players are complete idiots.
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I have no idea what sort of investigation takes Titans to block or bann or whatever cause process transparency seems to be out of the Social Contract.
Surely you look at something, but quite frankly, whatever you do I have to say is not coming around so well. This is not even about this situation anymore. I don't know if it's the new Titans, the old ones or just some concept getting in the way, but I cannot say to agree.
As for my fellow players, I respect them a lot, and do not see how you think otherwise.
Finally, I have to say people get very defensive when discussing this matter, and do think that gets in the way of actual improvement.
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Titans *are* your fellow players. The people that are, quite possibly, playing in the same realms as you, and probably exchanging letters with you. They are the Titans. Your fellow players. Your last message came about a hair short of accusing them of using their Titans powers and responsibilities for their personal benefit: "...and I cannot say I trust their impartiality at all anymore." How does that show respect and trust of your fellow players?
You also blatantly stated that the Titans are unable to tell the difference between a nuisance report, and a genuine report. That they knee-jerk lock accounts at the drop of a hat.
The Titans are not perfect. They are normal, regular players just like everyone else. They can make mistakes. You need to cut them a bit of slack. Flying off the handle because your realm got a message to be careful of the IRs is a huge overreaction. IIRC, no one got locked, no one lost their positions, just told to be careful about the IRs. Is that really deserving of a realm-wide flame and rage-quit?
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no one got locked,
You are wrong. I got locked.
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Was Hinamoto, in fact, locked?
Right now, all I know are rumors. The titans message in the realm does not mention a lock; their "public verdict" is a simple reminder of the rules. We don't know anything else.
These rumors are bad for the game. Whether they are true or not is besides the point (although I'd like to know), but their existence is a seed for the break of trust.
When the magistrates posted a verdict, it was a lot clearer. I understand there were other disadvantages, but the openness of it was very useful.
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While there may well have been players seeking to undermine Juan on an OOC level, and it's even possible that one or more Titan reports were filed for that reason, deleting his account because of a warning and a one-day account lock is a huge overreaction.
The Titans do not, and will never, take into account the fact that someone is a "long-time player" or "knows the IRs very well" or any of the other character references that have been put forward for Juan's behaviour. If the behaviour that they see violates the IRs or the Social Contract, the Titans will hand down what they feel to be an appropriate punishment.
The Titans do not, and will never, act as the tools of any in-game faction. Any report of possible nefarious activities will be looked at on its merits, and the full context behind the situation assessed. If General Doright, who's been in the game for 5 years and never done any wrong, happens to slip one day and order someone to recruit infantry when they wanted archers, and the disgruntled Sir Snidely reports him for that because he wants the General position...then the Titans will probably punish him for it. However, if Sir Snidely continues reporting General Doright for all kinds of other stuff that does not actually violate any rule or right, he will likely find himself on the receiving end of their extreme displeasure.
The Titans do not, and will never, refrain from handing down a deserved punishment just because there's been a lot of OOC unpleasantness in the realm lately.
The Titans do not, and will never, refrain from handing down a deserved punishment just because there's a risk the one being punished will quit the game, or because someone threatens to quit the game based on a punishment. We are always sad to see good players leave (and nearly every player who's ever left was a good player; aside from multi-cheaters, I can count on the fingers of my hands the number of players who have either left or been banned that I felt were truly bad for the game as a whole), but whether to stay or go is every player's own personal choice. As I have already stated, I believe Juan's action in leaving the game was an unjustified overreaction. The Titans were not out to get him, and if there were players in his realm out to get him, and he identified them to the Titans, they would have investigated them thoroughly and done everything in their power to see that the system was not abused to harass or impede the play of those just trying to play the game and have fun.
Finally, summaries of and explanations for recent judgements will be written up and posted on the Wiki in the near future; however, the Titans will need some time to finish sorting through the aftermath of what has happened before they can turn their attention to such administrative matters.
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You are wrong. I got locked.
Thanks for clearing that up. For how long? You did not lose your position.
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I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.
The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".
I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.
Simple as that.
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I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.
The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".
I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.
Simple as that.
Can we have the big picture here? Why do you felt publicly embarrassed and reputation harmed? And what good does it do by deleting the account instead of just the character?
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I dont blame the titans but the ones putting them in that position. I got publically embarassed and my reputation harmed over some people trying to get an in game advantage. I saw no other possible way but deleting my account.
The titans represent the owner/s so in my eyes, the owners believe i "hurt the game".
I dont desearve to be treated that way and so i have quitted.
Simple as that.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Hinamoto, but I'm afraid there are multiple problems with this.
First of all, getting a 1-day lock by the Titans does not mean that we believe you "hurt the game," at least not in any serious or lasting way. It means that they believe you have done something serious enough to warrant forcing you to stop playing for a short time to really think about your actions. A one-day lock is not a serious punishment. As a matter of fact, I was given at least a one-day lock myself for something I did several years ago. (I can no longer recall whether it was 1-day or 3-day offhand.)
Second of all, as Indirik and I have already said, getting reported to the Titans for the issues in this case simply meant that someone brought them to the Titans' attention. If you had done nothing that justified any punishment, you would not have been punished in any way. Putting the blame on these supposed people trying to undermine you OOC completely ignores the larger issue here: that you did, in fact, say the things the Titans felt were worth first sending a general reminder of the IRs to the realm for, and then giving you a one-day lock for.
Third of all, it is really hard to see how "some people reported me to the Titans and I got punished" leads logically to "there is no possible way to continue playing the game; I must delete my account." Saying you "don't deserve to be treated that way" sounds very much like you're trying to say, "I don't deserve to be subject to the same rules as everyone else in the game; I should be able to occasionally break the rules and not get punished for it, even with such a light punishment as a warning and a one-day lock." I don't think that's what you mean, because that's not the impression I've had of you from our interactions on IRC, but that is definitely how you come across here, Hinamoto. So I'd definitely appreciate it if you would clarify why you feel that being punished for small, but real, violations of the rules of the game means you should leave the game.
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There was ONE single valid report. That was when i logged in drunk and said many kind of nonsense. The rest of the reports (at least in my eyes) were wrongly processed. Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation? I dont have a say in all this? I have played 6 years without a single report (And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc) and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?
Titans represent the ones in charge of this game. They have publically said that i have violated the IR which i havent. I have always played fair and square, its not my fault if i have a conception of the game military speaking that gives positive in-game results (this time just took a week), but reporting me to take me out of the game? Seriously?
Locking my account for 1 day, 10, or 1 year is the same for me. The harm is done. Titans let my fellow partners of the realm im playing, to believe i dont play under the rules, making me look like i hurt the game.
There you go, i hurt the game, then you dont need me around and thus i quitted.
Regards,
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Titan judgements feel cheap. I've always felt very bitter when I received one. You don't get to defend yourself, and then some anonymous players, who might have vested interests against you, pass judgement on you based on information which was likely taken out of context, partial and biased. Most of the time, I was strongly in disagreement with them. But there's nothing to do. You were trialed without the ability to defend yourself, and you aren't even allowed to comment on it. You are just supposed to shut up and accept it.
I'm honestly not surprised people quit when titans judge against them. I don't think it's all that extreme. The titan system is inherently belittling and moralizing.
At least with the magistrates, one could defend himself and make sure the evidence taken in consideration represent a full picture of the facts. One knew on what he was being judged, and on what basis the judgement was reached. Titan judgements, on the other hand, appear as a random pop-up labeling people as bad players.
If you had done nothing that justified any punishment, you would not have been punished in any way.
I've seen enough ridiculous calls as well as clear-cut cases that ended up ignored not to agree with this sentence. The titans work in secret and anonymity. They aren't accountable for their work. That doesn't foster rigor and impartiality. The magistrates were open. The players could police their behavior. Who makes sure the titans do their job properly? Nobody.
The magistrate system wasn't perfect, and in the end it failed, but I always disliked the titans system, regardless of the titans involved. Over the years, it was announced again and again that there'd be new titans, that there'd be a clean-up and that the system would start working again, but it never actually got better.
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The magistrate system wasn't perfect, and in the end it failed, but I always disliked the titans system, regardless of the titans involved. Over the years, it was announced again and again that there'd be new titans, that there'd be a clean-up and that the system would start working again, but it never actually got better.
Nearly every single Magistrate report caused more acrimony with the public flamewars they spawned than it calmed people's fears that they were being unjustly judged.
I think one thing that's very, very important to remember here is that for violations of the IR (and most clear-cut Social Contract violations), there is no valid defense. There can be no justification for ordering (or requesting) someone to log in at a different time, not go to a tournament, or recruit a different type of unit. So offering the accused player a chance to defend themselves is pointless. If the Titans feel that, on the evidence, the accused player is guilty, there is literally nothing that the player can say that can change that.
There are cases where there could be valid defenses—what comes quickly to mind is cases like strategic capital moves and such. In cases like these, the Titans have the ability to request clarification or justification from the player, and at least from where I sit, I think that each time such a case comes up, the accused should have the opportunity to explain what their reasoning was for doing it. That doesn't mean the Titans have to simply accept such an answer at face value, but it should at least be part of the process in less-obvious cases like that.
And frankly, Chénier, we all know your opinion of the administration of the game in general, and your word just doesn't hold much weight, given that you've admittedly stopped actually playing the game.
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Titan judgements feel cheap. I've always felt very bitter when I received one. You don't get to defend yourself, and then some anonymous players, who might have vested interests against you, pass judgement on you based on information which was likely taken out of context, partial and biased. Most of the time, I was strongly in disagreement with them. But there's nothing to do. You were trialed without the ability to defend yourself, and you aren't even allowed to comment on it. You are just supposed to shut up and accept it.
While I love the game and people involved with this great game, this time this comment is a mirror of my opinion and why I'm so angry.
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Hinamoto, your anger and frustration are understandable. However, neither they, nor anything you've said so far, make your punishment seem any less justified.
There was ONE single valid report. That was when i logged in drunk and said many kind of nonsense. The rest of the reports (at least in my eyes) were wrongly processed. Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation?
It doesn't take 3 days to read the messages in the realm and see what happened. It's not like we have actual detectives who have to travel to your house and gather RL evidence or something.
I dont have a say in all this?
What did you expect to say that would make a difference? "Sorry, I was drunk when I said that, so it shouldn't count"? That's not a defense in any legal court in the world; I don't see why it should excuse bad behaviour in BattleMaster.
I have played 6 years without a single report
Which means nothing once you actually break a rule.
(And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc)
All this says is that you've been breaking the rules the whole time, there was just no one reporting you for it.
and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?
Well, maybe that's why you got reported this time, but based on what you've said so far, it sounds very much like all that means is that you're being punished now for things you should have been punished for years ago.
Personally, I can't say whether or not that's true—after all, if we knew that you were logging on drunk and swearing at your realm in OOC on a regular basis for years, we probably would have already done something about it. However, it sounds very much like that's what you're saying.
Titans represent the ones in charge of this game. They have publically said that i have violated the IR which i havent. I have always played fair and square, its not my fault if i have a conception of the game military speaking that gives positive in-game results (this time just took a week), but reporting me to take me out of the game? Seriously?
Locking my account for 1 day, 10, or 1 year is the same for me. The harm is done. Titans let my fellow partners of the realm im playing, to believe i dont play under the rules, making me look like i hurt the game.
There you go, i hurt the game, then you dont need me around and thus i quitted.
So you think that everyone who breaks the rules in the smallest way should leave the game?
As I said before, if the Titans believed you should have been removed from the game, and Tom agreed, you would have been removed from the game. "Hurting the game" isn't a yes or no matter; there are many, many degrees of it. If you did hurt the game, it was only in a small way, and everything that the Titans did was to try to make you think before you acted, and be a better player. Not to make you leave the game.
Leaving the game in a fit of frustration does nothing to help anything. It means that you can no longer enjoy the game in any way. It means that the game can no longer benefit from your presence (and the game does benefit from the presence of nearly every player, as I said before). It means that your skills as General will no longer be available to your realm at all, ever (and if that really was what turned your war around, that makes it much more likely that you will lose). It means that whoever was targetting you in an OOC manner has won—not because the Titans did something to you, but because you decided that it was more important to be seen as one who never did the slightest thing wrong than to stay and help both your realm and the entire game.
I am sad to see you go, Hinamoto, but, on behalf of the Titans, I will not accept the responsibility for your leaving.
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While I love the game and people involved with this great game, this time this comment is a mirror of my opinion and why I'm so angry.
Then please make some suggestions as to how the Titans can be improved to avoid this. However, bear in mind that they will not, ever, be opened up again like the Magistrates. As has been amply stated in this thread and elsewhere, they were an experiment that failed.
The Titans will remain anonymous, and all cases will remain private until a verdict has been reached. (The verdicts and summaries of the Titans' reasoning will, as I said earlier, be posted to the Wiki when we have time to write them up.)
Please note, however, that I'm perfectly serious in my request for suggestions. I have seen a number of players quit in this manner, and it is always frustrating to me, as it seems to me like it's such a poor response to the situation—it can never help to make anything better. If there is a way to avoid that without causing worse damage to the game as a whole, I'd really like to find it.
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Letter from Ryu Hinamoto (24 days, 3 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "General Staff" (13 recipients)
Units with less than 300 CS or less than 20 man should preset travels to Sirion city and recruit the maximum they can.
Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry. (OOC: remember that we cant order that because it messes with the IR.)
In arms,
Ryu Hinamoto
Royal of Sirion
Duke of Karbala
Margrave of Karbala
What's the problem with that!? He was warning about the rules. It's likely to ask someone if he accept to leave his unit as militia. Bahh...
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I wasnt expecting for you or anyone accepting it, you never EVER accept any fault and always have something to say to back up your actions, that is something i've learn time ago.
Clearly, i accepted the responsability when logged in drunk, i dont accept the other reports that ended up in locking my account. The time frame between the reports and the processing is suspicious enough for me to believe it was done on purpose to take an in-game advantage. Since i never had a chance to know who reported me, who processed the thing and what letter was reported and not even defend myself, i will think that, as it is the most obvious.
I dont believe i have insulted anyone. Saying that a person is not "man/woman enough" to address his personal problems with me directly instead of looking whatever he can to report me, is considered an insult? Then this world became way too suceptible. Other players have cursed in the very same time frame i supposedly did and did not got reported, just me, which reafirms my belief that it was someone having a personal beef with me or trying to take me down of the game.
You believe i was rightfully punished, and that i got locked to think before writting (i got locked coincidentially 30 minutes after a sunrise turn change where i had to send very important attacking orders and that i had to be attent)and i dont agree with that. Since we have a difference in our thinking, the problem would never get solved so if you think deeply the best in this situation is what i did, delete my account and avoid the titans and the rest of the players suffer such a game hurter.
Regards,
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In the years since the Inalienable Rights were instituted, there have been a lot of people who have tried to get around them by saying, for instance, "I want you to recruit archers (OOC: but I can't order you to, because of the IR)". That is still a blatant violation of the IR, as stated pretty clear in the "Not Orders" section of the IR page (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Inalienable#.22however....22_.2F_.22but....22_.2F_.22Not_Orders.22). If you need to understand why that's a violation, it is explained right there in the page. If you don't agree that that should be a violation...sorry, it is, and it always will be. You can disagree with it all you like, but it is the rule, it has been the rule for many years now, and we're not going to change it.
Saying "Ask the people to recruit archers (but don't order it)" is an IR violation. The "punishment" given for this violation was a simple public warning. It is possible that it would have been better if the warning was private, but either way, nothing was actually done to Hinamoto, his character, or his character's family. It was a simple reminder of what the rules are, and to follow them. It was not until Hinamoto publicly complained in-game about the warning—which is, itself, forbidden; an email to Tom is the only acceptable forum for complaints about Titan decisions—and attempted to call out the person who reported him, that he was given a one-day lock.
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Clearly, i accepted the responsability when logged in drunk, i dont accept the other reports that ended up in locking my account. The time frame between the reports and the processing is suspicious enough for me to believe it was done on purpose to take an in-game advantage.
This is simply insulting to the Titans, to Tom, and to me. If he or I had any inkling that any Titans were doing anything of the kind, we would come down on them like a ton of bricks so fast they wouldn't know what hit them.
If you disagree with a Titan decision against you, that's understandable. If you want to appeal it to Tom, that's fine.
But do not accuse Tom, me, or the Titans of abusing the Titan system to gain some kind of advantage for one side in a war. That does not happen, has never happened, and will never happen. I can't speak for all the Titans (and wouldn't presume to speak for Tom, though I suspect I know his answer), but I take such accusations as a very personal insult.
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Titans *are* your fellow players. The people that are, quite possibly, playing in the same realms as you, and probably exchanging letters with you. They are the Titans. Your fellow players. Your last message came about a hair short of accusing them of using their Titans powers and responsibilities for their personal benefit: "...and I cannot say I trust their impartiality at all anymore." How does that show respect and trust of your fellow players?
You also blatantly stated that the Titans are unable to tell the difference between a nuisance report, and a genuine report. That they knee-jerk lock accounts at the drop of a hat.
The Titans are not perfect. They are normal, regular players just like everyone else. They can make mistakes. You need to cut them a bit of slack. Flying off the handle because your realm got a message to be careful of the IRs is a huge overreaction. IIRC, no one got locked, no one lost their positions, just told to be careful about the IRs. Is that really deserving of a realm-wide flame and rage-quit?
Pretty much that. Considering that recently there were new Titans designated, considering that in 6 years playing the very same as i was doing recently, making tons of new friends not only in my realm but in others and even in other continents, and that now all of the sudden this happens... Im sorry i am not a person that believes in coincidences, and there is way too many here.
As i stated first, i put the blame of my anger and frustration into the ones in charge of deciding who the titans are, is that you and Tom? Then its you and Tom who i blame for what i believe it was an injustice.
Regards,
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Pretty much that. Considering that recently there were new Titans designated, considering that in 6 years playing the very same as i was doing recently, making tons of new friends not only in my realm but in others and even in other continents, and that now all of the sudden this happens... Im sorry i am not a person that believes in coincidences, and there is way too many here.
As i stated first, i put the blame of my anger and frustration into the ones in charge of deciding who the titans are, is that you and Tom? Then its you and Tom who i blame for what i believe it was an injustice.
Regards,
So you are directly claiming that Titans, who get these reports from other people and then investigate them, did this to get an in-game advantage?
You making new friends has nothing to do with this. You breaking the rules in the past is not an excuse for you breaking the rules in the future. I always do this is not an excuse for breaking the rules.
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So you are directly claiming that Titans, who get these reports from other people and then investigate them, did this to get an in-game advantage?
You making new friends has nothing to do with this. You breaking the rules in the past is not an excuse for you breaking the rules in the future. I always do this is not an excuse for breaking the rules.
Im claiming that the reports came coincidentially with an in-game set of events. I dont believe in coincidences, and since policy is that everything remains in silent, and annonymus i am entitled to believe whatever i want to believe.
I put the 6 years example because 6 years compared to 1 week its quiet an enormous amount of time, what? there was no one monitoring this great rules violator?. I put the friends example, to prove that im not a game hurter and that most of the players interacting with me even enemies had fun or appreciated me to be someone publically etiquetted as a game hurter.
There is nothing else to discuss. Im clearly a person with a boiled temper, i never messed with anyone OOC, i've never exploited a bug in favor (in fact i most of the bugs hurted my plannings more than helping). I believe someone tried to perjudicate me, and i think i got wrongly punished. I believe my reputation was questioned and that is something that after 6 years and with my background wont tolerate.
Im done here.
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Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",
It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.
What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players. In my opinion, that particular sentence is up to your interpretation(just like religious writings).
I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.
Though, i do also felt that Hinamoto over-reacted. Yes, you could had felt you were misjudged, but you could had stood up for yourself a little bit different. Flaming fire with fire doesn't work. I do wish for you to comeback one way or another however, if it is true that you are a great players. Create a new account and start all over again anonymous. Nobody will know who you were - if that helps you better. Do it for the other players - not the Titans nor Tom. After all, the game is great because of all the players' contributions.
Just my 2 cents.
*Hinamoto - come join Melhed in Beluaterra. Hahaha :p
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I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.
First of all, I feel that it is important to point out that the Titans have a tendency to get all kinds of complaints, and flames, and insults, and every kind of other nastygram whenever they hand down a punishment, no matter how justified. Sometimes it's public, sometimes it's not, but people who get punished almost never accept that they broke the rules, and the punishment was justified. So right off the bat, we have a strong tendency to defensiveness in response to criticism (even on top of the general human tendency to same).
Second of all, partly because of this excessive criticism, and the number of people who already think that they're the bane of the game's very existence, it is important to do everything we can to preserve the good image of the Titans. Part of this is avoiding the perception that the Titans are prone to making mistakes all the time and that any given decision is likely to be reversed or just retracted and apologized for later.
Because of this, I don't like to second-guess Titan decisions, especially publicly. However, you're not wrong that it is also important to acknowledge when mistakes are made. Personally, I'm not sure if I would have supported making the warning public rather than private. However, I was away for the weekend, and the Titans who were here were the ones who made the decisions, and in the end, I don't believe that making the warning private would have been very likely to change the overall outcome.
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Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",
It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.
What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players.
I absolutely agree with this. I don't even think it has a whole lot of room for interpretation. If a troopleader had been sent this letter, that would be a whole other story, but that was not the case, marshals were sent this.
First of all, I feel that it is important to point out that the Titans have a tendency to get all kinds of complaints, and flames, and insults, and every kind of other nastygram whenever they hand down a punishment, no matter how justified. Sometimes it's public, sometimes it's not, but people who get punished almost never accept that they broke the rules, and the punishment was justified. So right off the bat, we have a strong tendency to defensiveness in response to criticism (even on top of the general human tendency to same).
I understand, and it is natural they get defensive, but that understandable response hurts dialogue, and should be avoided in the best interest of exchanging ideas on the particular situation. Also, some degrees of defensiveness can often be mistaken for mocking or plain insults, things Titans should never do. I am not saying they do, I am saying they can be taken as it by who reads them.
Second of all, partly because of this excessive criticism, and the number of people who already think that they're the bane of the game's very existence, it is important to do everything we can to preserve the good image of the Titans. Part of this is avoiding the perception that the Titans are prone to making mistakes all the time and that any given decision is likely to be reversed or just retracted and apologized for later.
Because of this, I don't like to second-guess Titan decisions, especially publicly. However, you're not wrong that it is also important to acknowledge when mistakes are made. Personally, I'm not sure if I would have supported making the warning public rather than private. However, I was away for the weekend, and the Titans who were here were the ones who made the decisions, and in the end, I don't believe that making the warning private would have been very likely to change the overall outcome.
Being constructive, I recommend you change your legitimacy strategy. If the Titans are always right, people who think they are wrong can get frustrated enough to leave, and it seems it often happens already. As Juan said, you are being singled out as breaking a rule you think you did not, and being given no room for discussion on it. And quite frankly, I doubt Tom will ever go against the Titan's decision, as that would create a whole lot of different problems of it's own.
People need to trust the Titan's judgement, but making it an obscure, back room business does not help that, moreover when there is no room for appeals.
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You are wrong. I got locked.
IIRC - This was for the second event, which was due to your insulting the entire realm via a very angry OOC letter following the first warning. The first event was a simple warning message sent to the realm, which was nothing more than a simple reminder to pay more attention to the IRs.
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Hinamoto,
Your problem here is that you believe you can't be wrong. Everyone can be wrong. Tom, Tim, and Titans. We are all humans and we make mistakes. The problem is that you don't believe you broke any rules. That is why you are saying words like 'injustice'. You expect others to work things out between you and whoever was offended. The problem with that is the person who feels offended by you might not want to talk to you about it either because he thinks you might hold a personal grudge against him or for other reasons.
Your friends might have overlooked the fact you broke IR (and trust me I probably broke them here and there since I learned how to lead troops in Sirion but probably didn't get reported or overlooked) but obviously someone didn't want to see you go unpunished for breaking IR.
Galmel,
If Tom sees something is wrong, he will probably point it out to the titans. If titans wrongfully or overdid their punishments, they should definitely correct their mistakes.
I think the problem comes with the ambiguity of the warning text. People can be confused which letter they sent caused them to get an warning. Some people do send a lot of letters and it is hard to keep track of everything.
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... moreover when there is no room for appeals.
There is always room for appeal. The message you get when you receive a warning, or any other judgment, provides explicit instructions on what to do if you think the judgment was made in error.
Sending angry OOC messages calling the other players in your realm cowards for filing Titan reports is not what the instructions say to do.
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Then please make some suggestions as to how the Titans can be improved to avoid this. However, bear in mind that they will not, ever, be opened up again like the Magistrates. As has been amply stated in this thread and elsewhere, they were an experiment that failed.
The Titans will remain anonymous, and all cases will remain private until a verdict has been reached. (The verdicts and summaries of the Titans' reasoning will, as I said earlier, be posted to the Wiki when we have time to write them up.)
Please note, however, that I'm perfectly serious in my request for suggestions. I have seen a number of players quit in this manner, and it is always frustrating to me, as it seems to me like it's such a poor response to the situation—it can never help to make anything better. If there is a way to avoid that without causing worse damage to the game as a whole, I'd really like to find it.
While I understand the desire from the Titans to perform their investigation in a private manner, the Forum threads were not only useful for the investigation itself. They were a pressure valve. They allowed people to vent all that they needed to vent. If their bitterness came from msiconceptions, these misconceptions could be rectified; if it came from a felling of never being heard, they could be heard; if it was pure pettiness, they could be called on it, lest other people believe them because they only ever heard one side of the story.
I would suggest that the Titans post their reasoning prior to enforcing any punishment. If they can't find the time to do so, then it follows that the case wasn't important enough for their time; in these cases no punishment seems like the right solution.
The current was of announcing verdicts does feel heavy handed and arbitrary. I'm perfectly able to believe that none of the people involved actually wish it to feel that way, but the truth is that it is.
Justice without appearance of justice is not conducive to improve the behaviour of the public. Then it's just vengeance, even if it's objectively fair.
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Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation? I dont have a say in all this? I have played 6 years without a single report (And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc) and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?
This may have something to do with the fact that the Titans have been on hold for years, and prior to that were so inactive as to be practically on hold. They were reinstated, what, last week? It's possible that someone decided to try once again to contact concerning things that's bothered for years, just to see if they'd react this time.
Sometimes, coincidences happen.
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Letter from Ryu Hinamoto (24 days, 3 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "General Staff" (13 recipients)
Units with less than 300 CS or less than 20 man should preset travels to Sirion city and recruit the maximum they can.
Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry. (OOC: remember that we cant order that because it messes with the IR.)
In arms,
Ryu Hinamoto
Royal of Sirion
Duke of Karbala
Margrave of Karbala
I've seen this message bandied about a few times now. Ever stop to consider that perhaps this wasn't the message the Titans were referring to? Or at least not the only message?
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I strongly suggest that Tom should reconsider this new Titans system. It resembles the Star Chamber and it will only speed up the loss of players. It’s a huge step backward from the transparency of the Magistrates system, imperfect as it was. If the Titans don’t want to be criticized, they shouldn't be sitting in judgment of their fellow players. They should have the courage of their convictions.
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I've seen this message bandied about a few times now. Ever stop to consider that perhaps this wasn't the message the Titans were referring to? Or at least not the only message?
That's the problem with secret proceedings. Well, one of many problems. This is just the beginning.
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EDIT: WARNING, LONG POST AHEAD.
Hinamoto, correct me if what I'm about to say is inaccurate.
Hinamoto isn't accusing the Titans, Tom, or the developers of using the system for their own personal benefits, in the sense some of them or any of them, purposefully used their powers to let these reports pass and punishment taken. He isn't angry at that, he doesn't feel angry in that manner.
What he (and perhaps the majority of folks who seem) who seem to be opposing/disgruntled about this entire incident is that even though the Titans passed judgement on his case of breaking an IR, it is the timing and presentation of these reports and verdicts that seems to be a root cause of lots of these... reactions from all sorts of people (not just Hinamoto) here on the forums, on IRC, and in-game during the last few days.
The Titans are not to take in past player history, or recommendations of character or a player's personality and track record. They focus on the report at hand, and whether a rule was broken or not. They issue a verdict, and in this case, as Penchant has reminded me on IRC, they decided to also make that verdict a public one to all of the realm (it's not always going to be public realm-wide verdicts).
What some folks feel has happened here, Hinamoto included, is that the Titan system has been abused in a timely manner to coincide with yes, an actual IR violation that he is guilty of -- so that Hinamoto as a player, and his characters, suffer punishment/warnings if the Titans deem it so. And so they have.
But not abused by the Titans themselves, necessarily, in the sense of one of them reported him first as a player/realm-mate, then made sure to use their Titan powers to see the verdict end in guilty, and to further use their Titan privileges to encourage a public verdict to shame him. No, that's not the case here that I think anyone believes or has meant to imply. It seems that is what you feel Hinamoto is accusing the Titans/Devs/Staff of doing, and why he is angry, folks. But again, unless I'm wrong, he isn't angry/acussing the Titans of that. He, and others, feel something more along the lines of what follows below:
What some suspect really happened (or is happening)
What many folks suspect, and believe, is that someone else (not specifically a Titan, but just any other regular joe, non-Titan player) in the realm has just recently in the last month, ever since Hinamoto's character took to the General position of the realm, begun to target him and his characters for reporting -- to the Titans -- at every chance they get. Is it because he was actually breaking rules and IR? Maybe it is, I don't have any actual logs or access to un-modified logs that actually show any of these other 3-4 reports Hinamoto claims has been filed against him in just the last month -- I've only seen the Titan verdict/warning of the public judgement passed on what appears to be the latest report someone has filed against him, which happens to be him breaking the IR for nobles/players being able to choose their own units. And then not less than a day later, the second public Titan verdict/punishment for insulting other players OOC because of the first Titan verdict.
It also appears there's enough of something -- whether it's evidence, a gut feeling, or just hearsay, I can't quite tell -- for at least over 10+ players now across the realm, IRC, and on the forums, who think these reports of IR/rule violations, while not false reports, have been purposefully done just during the time Hinamoto's character took the General position in the last 2-4 weeks, because this person (not necessarily a Titan or Staff, just a regular joe player who wants to take Hinamoto and his characters down OOCly) has some kind of beef with the player and/or Hinamoto's characters. What's their motivation? There's no way to really find out in this case, with the Titan system keeping the Complainer/Reporter anonymous, it can't be checked out with the public/community/realm players if the person complaining/reporting has an actual personal OOC conflict (or even legit IC conflict) with another player or their characters at some point in the past, or in the present.
But what if it was someone out with a personal vendetta? For whatever reasons they are, it is possible. This is a PvP game, after all, it's about fighting against, and with, other people who control in-game characters in the Battlemaster world, going head-to-head in politics, actual military battles between player-controlled armies, and somewhere along the way there's that chance someone, somewhere, got pissed off at someone else. It could be the real human being someone is pissed off at, or how their characters have come to act or behave over time. But that's not something to bother explaining further, because I'm confident all of us here know that's quite likely in game like this, has already happened in the community before, even. It was a reminder however, so that what I say next has some context.
If someone had a bone to pick with another player, and/or their characters, their target being a fairly well-known player/character in the realm OOC/IC, and also happened to have a gained General position recently, complete with a string of victories, success, and good coordination as a General character -- they could use the Titan system to purposefully report the player/character at every chance there was a valid opportunity -- not only to help 'enforce' the IR and rules, but also in gambling that if there was a guilty verdict, it would help undermine and add additional stress/tension/guilt to that other player and their characters, especially during an already stressful time period coordinating and controlling a character who is a heavily involved, military General, of the realm, in the middle of a really edge-of-your-seat war.
Is it the person's fault for breaking IRs and rules that could be (and was in this case) reported by others, resulted in guilty verdicts, public Titan warnings and 1-day account locks -- Even when they could have been more careful to not even go close to breaking any IRs/rules, while managing a military General character in the middle of an intensive war they were putting lots of their own personal spirit into? Yes, they could have been more careful. Yes, it's their fault and responsibility for slipping up.
Is quitting/leaving the game, deleting your game account, uncalled over this recent spectacle? Sure it could be, and it maybe is in this case.
But these things about it being a player's own fault for breaking IRs/rules (and consequently being reported, warned/ punished) isn't quite the issue at hand here, I think -- it's about possibly someone, another player (not specifically a Titan or Staff), abusing the report/complaint system to undermine their victim and characters, when that player and character(s) have invested themselves into the responsibility of military General in the middle of an important game period; coordinating an entire realm's armies, tactics and strategy of a huge war against a similarly tactical and powerful collection of enemy realms. By undermining and submitting these reports (even though they are real IRs/rule violations the person has committed) with the anonymity of not knowing who the complainer is, or who the Titans are, it feels to a number of folks that a fellow player(s) in their own realm has done this on purpose just so the victim gets frustrated/stress-over enough that we either see their characters get deleted, demoted, removed, punished, etc, or they want to see their target delete their entire account, rage-quit, spout off OOC, get banned, punished, account-locked, and so on.
I think the above is a slightly better translation of what lots of people on Hinamoto's side have been trying to express about this entire incident with the Titans and what Hinamoto himself has been trying to express -- IR's and rules were broken, warnings, verdicts and punishment were doled out as deemed fit by the Titans. But someone, or a group of people, may have been using Hinamoto's slip-ups to purposefully launch a barrage of reports/complaints against him in such a short time period of one month, in order to lay on additional layer of stress/tension on top of all the work and effort of putting his own passion and energy into playing the strategy/war part of the game through a military General character, that he had just recently taken up with his character(s), in this same month/time period.
Folks aren't accusing the Titans/Devs/Staff themselves for personally targeting Hinamoto (and thus they aren't angry for that particular reason), they are suspicious and angry that someone might have used the Titans system for a personal OOC attack/vendetta, with it's safety of anonymity for the Complainer (who is misusing the Titan System to OOCly attack/harass someone, even if what they are reporting is a valid violation/complaint) and the anonymity for the Titans -- and then the Titans (by mistake) not realizing this and still passing the guilty verdict, public realm-wide warnings, and 1-day account lock without any indication or even remorse/sympathetic acknowledgement that this, given the context of the war, the player's past track record, personality and actual behavior, was being abused at all by the complaining/reporting party as a targeted OOC attack at an important and already stressful time for the player, even if the violations reported are actual rules broken that needed to be warned/punished for.
As it stands, with the Titan system currently preserving the anonymous identity of the Complainer, and the anonymity of the Titans passing judgement, it's tough for folks to see what hope they have in seeing their possible conspiracy theories/suspicions/hunches/gut feelings proven wrong. Seeing someone get a public realm-wide warning, with a blaring yellow message background, for the first time since the Magistrates System was announced as closed, with the verdict-kind of concluding posts/text we saw in the old Magistrates System (but without knowing who the Complainer is, who the people deciding the judgement are this time around) -- I think those things are part of the reasons why Hinamoto, at least 8-10 players OOC in the realm, and 1-2 others here on the forums have all expressed some form of anger, disgruntlement, disapproval, suspicion, concern, and worry. People can appeal after, but... the public verdict made about someone is already out there, shaming or not, it's a public message/warning about someone who broke the rules/IRs, and folks have reacted as they have in this situation.
Is that the way people are? Over-sensitive, unrealistic, short-sighted and more? Should they just be dismissed as overreacting, obsessive conspiracy theorists? I could agree with that in some cases, but for this one, I've personally played a character for about the same number of years with Hinamoto's characters in the same realm, and while he definitely may have dug himself into this in regards to the IR/rules he has broken, the anger/frustration/disapproval people are expressing across the realm in-game, and on the forums/IRC (just 1-3 on IRC and the forums total, but in the realm there's definitely has been at least 6-8+ I think) might just indicate this isn't just a clear-cut case of someone violating the IRs/rules, getting pissed about being punished, then rage-quitting. There's maybe more to it, like someone (not specifically a Titan/Staff) actually trying to pull the strings of the Titan System to carry out an OOC attack against someone else, especially at this coincidental time when that player and his character(s) are helping a realm in leaps and bounds on the military and war font.
To re-emphasis one of things I meant to clarify through the above paragraphs; Hinamoto and other folks aren't peeved or thinking/blaming the Titans/staff themselves for trying to purposefully take him (Hinamoto) down, he and other folks are (from what I deduce) angry and suspecting some unidentified player (non-Titan, non-Staff most likely they mean to suspect) of successfully using the Titan system to degrade OOCly another player and their character(s), and then being partly angry at the Titans for letting that happen, with no apology for the specific scenario, and what so far seems to be no acknowledgement that this might or actually has happened. Yes, Hinamoto did wrongs, but someone else might be doing wrong in this too, and folks can't identify who, validate their suspicions or invalidate them, under this current Titan system which provides anonymity to the Complainer and Titans. This is in order to prevent a revenge witch-hunt, right?
But what happens if someone is, and has, used the system, in this case of Hinamoto, to actually attack him and/or their characters through this complaint/report system? Even if the complaints and reports are real violations of IRs and rules, how will anyone know if someone is, or isn't abusing it this way as part of a larger OOC attack (Especially one that targets a player/character who is quite involved with the military mechanics and coordination of the realm and other players)? If someone does abuse it, how will they found out? How will the targeted player and realm who received the public Titan verdicts and warnings ever know that person being reported/complained about is part of a larger OOC attack to deprive the realm of an important character/player, even if he/she is guilty of IRs violations and player complaints? These are some of the feelings/frustration, I think, that is part of the brimming overflow of OOC sentiments that people, in Sirion, in-game, have been trying to express, right from the first public Titan verdict, to even a day now after Hinamoto deleted his account. There was at least another 10-14+ OOC messages from at least 7-8+ different players after Hinamoto deleted his account. The realm ruler and maybe one other player tried to remind people to take the OOC discussion to the emails provided by the Titan announcements (titan@battlemaster.org, tom@battlemaster.org), or to head to the forums, but that still didn't help until the final turn of that day rolled and things finally seemed to settle down on the grey message front.
Are these ungrateful expectations and inappropriate thanks towards the Staff/Titans/Developers? Should people on Hinamoto's side be feeling this way? Are they even feeling that way for sure? Is quitting/deleting an account just being being a hothead in this scenario? Should the public guilty verdicts announced to the realm have been done that way? Is there a better solution available? Would a different solution be more appropriate and healthy for the game to implement than what we have now? You'll get answers that range all over the place. But it's quite clear that no matter what answers to those questions anyone might come up with, the fact remains: Something about this entire incident is aggravating/upsetting/has created an uncomfortable/unsettling feeling for a good portion of folks, especially in the Sirion in-game realm message channel. Are they just pissed off and angry that they lost a capable General and military character in the middle of a war? The answer to that might/might not make their concerns, reactions, and opinions less appropriate (or relevant), but it still doesn't change the fact that they are feeling those feelings, and for at least 5-8+ players now, have also continued to express those feelings/concerns/opinions/thoughts in a flood of OOC messages the same day Hinamoto deleted his account. Even after being warned to take OOC outside of the game to the forums/email/etc.
I'm don't plan to post again on this, because I'm not that good at debating, or expressing stuff in a debating/prove your point is right over others and provide cohesive evidence way/or prove this and that argument is false because of X, Y, Z reasons that support your own claims, etc. This took me a few hours to write, probably started 2-4 hours ago, when the last post was this one: (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5699.msg128837.html#msg128837). I apologize for not updating the rest of this post for those. It's a lot of work and as much effort as this was for me to write all this, I am a little tired to go back to incorporate the latest responses into this post properly.
I have read them though and feel that there are the responses for the most part well worth considering and reading -- they tackle maybe in better words some of the similar things I have been trying to say here about how people are feeling about all this, where the anger/frustration is really coming from and directed at, and so on.
I'm sorry to say I can't offer any changes/improvements that sound great to me, and that would be acceptable without treading over the 'This has already been tried before and it didn't work' territory.
Hopefully for those that read this entire wall of text, you might have a little bit better of an understanding of where folks like Hinamoto really are coming from, what some folks are (possibly) really frustrated and angry at, and some of the collective sentiments, opinions, and thoughts I have tried to compile out of a combination of all all the OOC messages about the incident from the in-game realm channel these last days, from the discussions and talks I've witnessed/had in the Battlemaster IRC channels/network, and from the relevant forum threads posted in the last day or so stemming from this entire scenario that has unfolded.
I assume the developers/staff/titans have direct access to the actual game logs for investigating things, but if anyone does want to see an actual screenshot for screenshot of the messages over the last 30 days this incident took place from my character's inbox, I have taken screenshots of all of it should anyone want to try and get a exact feeling for how many, and what kind of OOC 'suspicions/disapproval/disagreement' messages people were writing about. I'll be waiting until a significant amount of time has passed before being willing to share these screenshots if anyone does ask for them, I'm thinking another month or so, but if anyone at some point afterwards does want to have these as reference or to do your own research into this entire affair, I can provide them. If the Staff/Titans/Developers/Tom inform me at any point this is illegal, inappropriate, not allowed, even if I wait X amount of time so that most of the information is outdated and irrelevant to current IG events, then I won't be giving them out, at all.
Thanks for reading. Don't expect me to respond back here, but if you'd like to directly let me know about something (like a mistake I made in my logic/explanation/writing or anything like that), or request some information (that I'm allowed to provide), etc, you can contact me through the Battlemaster IRC Channel, I usually hang out there, or even send me a private message here on the forums (I'll try to respond to that but I don't use the BM forums too often, but it should send my email account a notification and I'll be reminded to check in and respond to you through PM then).
(EDIT: Moldy Smidglez, I feel like I wrote a book after re-reading all this. This is why I feel uncomfortable posting on the forums, partly. Beejeesus!)
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Nearly every single Magistrate report caused more acrimony with the public flamewars they spawned than it calmed people's fears that they were being unjustly judged.
I think one thing that's very, very important to remember here is that for violations of the IR (and most clear-cut Social Contract violations), there is no valid defense. There can be no justification for ordering (or requesting) someone to log in at a different time, not go to a tournament, or recruit a different type of unit. So offering the accused player a chance to defend themselves is pointless. If the Titans feel that, on the evidence, the accused player is guilty, there is literally nothing that the player can say that can change that.
Really now? It seems to me that you just locked a guy for something that Tom has just explicitly stated wasn't actually against the rules.
Come on, now. You know full well that a lot of cases aren't clear-cut, black-and-white violations of the rules as they are written. Sometimes they seem to be clearly against the spirit of the rule, but not the wording per say. Rare were the magistrate cases that could reach a unanimous verdict in less than three days, I doubt it's all that much easier for the titans.
Did the Magistrate cases drag on? Yes. Was there a lot of impertinent discussion? Yes. But the complaint was rarely enough to make a proper decision. Follow-up messages allowed the magistrates to make up their mind, and I know I personally often had a strong impression from the complaint, only to be swayed the other way with the follow-up.
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I’m going to start off by saying I’ve only recently started playing on EC and from what I can see the atmosphere is rather pleasant. That being said I think that this matter has been blown out of all proportion.
The main problems with the Titnens from my perspective are three fold:
- You do not know your accuser – This is a fundamental flaw in my opinion as the right to know your accuser is fundamental to any fair trial or investigation. In America I believe it’s the 6th Amendment.
You have no rebuttal – That is there is no chance for the accused to present his case to the Titans before judgment is passed. Therefore you do not allow the defendant any chance to present his case and any mitigating circumstances before Judgment.
There is no transparency – This is fairly self-explanatory. The Titans are not accountable to anyone who plays the game; this may not be the case but when proceedings and arguments are held behind closed doors with no explanation of the methodology or reasoning behind a ruling you give credence to this argument.
Personally I did not like the Magistrates as they were but I detest the idea of a ‘KGB’ style secret police with no apparent accountability. You will never be able to make everyone happy but I fear you will lose more players than this if reform is not made.
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This is getting wildly out of hand. Let me put my "Tom's Mouthpiece" hat on for a minute, since I'm 99.5% sure he would say exactly the same thing in this instance:
The Titans are and will remain a secret body. BattleMaster is not a democracy, and any comparisons to a Star Chamber or the KGB miss the two vitally important points that first this is a game, and the absolute worst that can happen to you is being removed from the game, and second, every single person is here because they choose to be, giving their free time and getting nothing in return.
The default alternative to the Titans is not an open system like the Magistrates: that has been shown to cause more problems than it solves. The alternative is a tyranny in which complaints go to one person, the speed with which they are addressed is entirely based on that one person's activity level, and the justice with which they are handled is entirely based on what one person's mood at the time. Some of you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the secrecy of the Titans is something new. It is not. The Titans have been set up this way since they were first formed in 2005, as a better way of resolving disputes and punishing rule breakers than just having Tom do it all himself.
There can be changes in the rules governing the Titans, and as I have said, I am open to suggestions that will reduce the frustration inherent in the process; however, the Titans are not, and will never be, equivalent to a court of law in any country. There will not be attorneys and juries and presentation of evidence on both sides. There will not be a higher court to appeal to if you dislike their judgement, save for Tom himself.
The Titans are people Tom and I trust to uphold the rules with impartiality, and with justice tempered by a certain amount of mercy. If you do not trust our judgement in this, then I am telling you now that you will not be able to trust our judgement in anything—not what features to implement, not how to code the game, and not whether or not to use our dev and admin powers to advance a personal agenda. If we wanted to abuse those powers in the ways that are being suggested now, I guarantee you flat-out you would have no chance to win, and either you would know instantly that we didn't like you (because your account would just be locked)...or you would not have any idea that anything was happening until long after you lost the war. (Whatever war. I don't even know what war is supposedly involved in this conspiracy.)
And now, I'm going to take that hat off, and put on my Moderator hat.
This thread has devolved into ugly accusations, insults, and flames. I won't go through and delete or cleanse any posts for now, but I am putting all posters on notice from here on that the thread will be strictly moderated, especially for tone, and any post that is not respectful—including any post that accuses devs, admins, or Titans of abusing their position, now or in a hypothetical future—will be removed, and the poster given a warning.
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I would like to clarify one more thing, since I think it's something that many people have been missing or misunderstanding.
A lot of people have been upset about things like the fact that they can't "face their accuser." As I have already said, the Titans are not, and were never intended to be, set up like a court of law, with two equal adversaries. They are set up much more like a grievance board that takes testimony from whistleblowers.
If the person who filed every Titan report was known, it would be all too easy for people who blatantly and willfully violated the Inalienable Rights—people who knew that what they were doing was wrong, but either didn't expect to get caught or thought it would be worth it—to subtly discriminate against them in future. This is very similar to the reasons why the Inalienable Rights are set up to be very broad and take into account requests and suggestions as well as outright orders.
The people most likely to have their Inalienable Rights violated are newer players, less confident in themselves, with fewer friends in-game and less ability to fight against a Ruler or General who want to micromanage their realm. Thus, it is vitally important that the rights themselves and the body charged with enforcing them be set up to ensure that such players will be protected as absolutely as possible from negative consequences of their reports—as long as their reports do not become abusive. (If that happens, it's really not hard for the Titans to see it, and I can assure you that they will be dealt with accordingly.)
I hope that this, combined with the issues caused by the Magistrates' public nature, will make it clear why the secrecy of the Titans will not be changed.
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I haven’t noticed anyone here accusing anyone of abusing their position, though I admit I didn't read all of Tel’s opus. :P
I have very little doubt that this system will change. Why? I work in dispute resolution and I've seen all the classic blunders that quasi-judicial bodies make (with the best intentions) and this is among the most common. It never works.
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I haven’t noticed anyone here accusing anyone of abusing their position, though I admit I didn't read all of Tel’s opus. :P
I have very little doubt that this system will change. Why? I work in dispute resolution and I've seen all the classic blunders that quasi-judicial bodies make (with the best intentions) and this is among the most common. It never works.
The magistrate type system won't work either. There is no perfect and simple solution.
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The magistrate type system won't work either. There is no perfect and simple solution.
The magistrate system was flawed but it worked better than this will.
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I just want to see the evidence and maybe a highlight of which part they had problems with.
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.... Fine I will break my silence, this is getting rather bothersome, seeing OOC ruin this game for so many.
Get it together...
If you want people to recruit a certain way do not order them to do so!
1. Make the message a request and to the entire realm
2. In the message state your thoughts on the unit that could be of use for the realm.
3. Simply state as the follows
*Request*
Nobles,
I believe archer units could greatly benefit our forces, and cut down our foes before we meet them, head on with our forces. Anyone who has a Archer unit or would like to get them let the treasury know we will assist in increasing your archer unit. It would greatly benefit the realm in the upcoming battle. Everyone with Infantry/Calvary/SF we need to make sure we have enough after the Archer cut them down. Please also send a request also and we will take care of your funding as well. After we've recruited a strong enough force rally in [Enter location]. Marshal's please remind your army's after turn change to send in their request.
Signed,
Average Joe
Lion General
Butter Rebellion
4. Note this is in no way a Order or a "Not a Order", it gives the choice to the Player and just places a thoughtful idea in those who would like to do so for a archer unit. It can be phrased a few different ways. Though it must be delicate as we are not suppose to push players to recruit a certain way.
5. Wonder what i'll have for lunch today ::)
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Also this is unacceptable:
*request from general
Sir Archer,
If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.
You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.
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Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.
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Also this is unacceptable:
*request from general
Sir Archer,
If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.
You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.
Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.
Yes, i believe i have seen the same too. Giving higher priority for someone else to recruit certain units.
.... Fine I will break my silence, this is getting rather bothersome, seeing OOC ruin this game for so many.
Get it together...
If you want people to recruit a certain way do not order them to do so!
1. Make the message a request and to the entire realm
2. In the message state your thoughts on the unit that could be of use for the realm.
3. Simply state as the follows
*Request*
Nobles,
I believe archer units could greatly benefit our forces, and cut down our foes before we meet them, head on with our forces. Anyone who has a Archer unit or would like to get them let the treasury know we will assist in increasing your archer unit. It would greatly benefit the realm in the upcoming battle. Everyone with Infantry/Calvary/SF we need to make sure we have enough after the Archer cut them down. Please also send a request also and we will take care of your funding as well. After we've recruited a strong enough force rally in [Enter location]. Marshal's please remind your army's after turn change to send in their request.
Signed,
Average Joe
Lion General
Butter Rebellion
4. Note this is in no way a Order or a "Not a Order", it gives the choice to the Player and just places a thoughtful idea in those who would like to do so for a archer unit. It can be phrased a few different ways. Though it must be delicate as we are not suppose to push players to recruit a certain way.
5. Wonder what i'll have for lunch today ::)
Great, now we have a template everyone else can use! Many thanks!
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Problem with IRs are they are not set in stone. Some people interpret in a different way and that may cause confusion among people. I believe rules that punish people so hard should be very clear. Then again, the page tells people to stay away from IRs.
Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.
Not to an individual. You can never request someone to change their unit type, especially as general and marshal.
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Also this is unacceptable:
*request from general
Sir Archer,
If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.
You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.
This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.
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I want to bring this discussion again on a meta-level again as I like to think outside of the box.
I have noticed now in three realms on EC a big raise of OOC toxic and aggressive atmosphere within 1-2 weeks?
In all three cases it was a problem with the leadership style somehow and Titans got involved as far as I know.
And that happened in usually rather stable realms.
Coincidence?
Just looking at it from a broader view...
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I have no idea what sort of investigation takes Titans to block or bann or whatever cause process transparency seems to be out of the Social Contract.
Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.
If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.
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(and wouldn't presume to speak for Tom, though I suspect I know his answer)
Anyone who accuses me of doing anything whatsoever to gain any in-game advantages of any kind needs to check in with the nearest mental institution immediately, as I haven't actually played the game for two years or so. :-)
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Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom,
That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.
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Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.
If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.
If it were funny if it weren't so sad.
And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.
Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun. Reporting a person for kindly requesting to pick certain type of unit mostly when there is a complete strategic basic completely logical and not trying to exploit any mechanic is a bunch of bull !@#$. I recall Galmel getting light bolted for stating that no one should assist a tournament in an enemy realm, wtf is that? He didnt ordered !@#$, he just stated something completely logical and got light bolted probably by the same lower mind that reported me.
You say that people are !@#$%^&s and i fully agree. I behaved like an !@#$%^&, fully and completely, but im not a bigger !@#$%^& than the guy reporting me or the one processing my reports. Im not a bigger !@#$%^& than those who never take any blame for a problem that this game is having and that is the constant losing of players.
Why my deletion brought all this attention? Exactly for that. Because now people questions the methods the owners use to solve situations, because they question if they would keep playing a game that DOES NOT PROTECT THE PRESTIGIOUS PLAYERS THEY HAVE and that actually contribute way more to the game than the complete and total !@#$%^& that is just waiting for letters to protest and complain to the titans.
You want a tip? Stop thinking like you never have the fault over everything that happens. The constant losing of players is you guys fault, and until you dont get a little bit of humility and acknowledge that its your fault you wont solve it at all.
Tom, you have created a MAGNIFICENT game, you are probably brilliant, but in all honestly, that kind of thinking will not solve this game's main problem.
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This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.
Oh. This changes a lot...
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Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun.
No. Reporting to the Titans is when you see someone breaking the IR or violating the Social Contract.
If it's someone you know, or someone you believe you can confront about it personally (OOC) without serious repercussions to yourself, you are welcome to try to talk to them first, but that is not a requirement. As I already said, it is very important that the Titans protect people as if they were whistleblowers.
If someone is in a realm where you are in a position of power and feels you are abusing that power, it is absolutely wrong to insist that he confront you about it first. That is far too likely to lead to discrimination against him in future, even if he reports you and you are removed from power for it.
The Titans were never meant to be used only in times of total, unmitigated crisis. If that is part of why you are so upset about this, then I can understand your feelings, but it is absolutely vital that you realize that was a misunderstanding on your part.
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Again, Juan.
DOES NOT PROTECT THE PRESTIGIOUS PLAYERS THEY HAVE
Doesn't matter how long you've played this game for. What kind of accomplishments you have. If you've cross the line you get punished. Simple.
You might feel entitled for some kind of special treatment but all players are treated equal even between an extremely active player and a player who logs on once a week.
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It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point. What am i suppose to do, print it and have it pasted next to my computed and revise that any letter, request or order that i send does not touch any of that? Come on...
You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong. Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person? Then if there is a repetition of the same person protesting the same person you need the Titan to be able to judge if there is no personal beef against that person, to investigate who that player is. Is there a repetition of the same acting? I mean did he kept requesting that person to recruit the type of unit he needs? or does he keep requesting him not to enter that tournament? Or is the same protester reporting another thing completely different? Does it really makes his gaming time get ruined? A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.
IR and Social Contract should be used as a guide to judge players behavious. Clearly if a player sends a letter requesting his marshals to see if their archer units can recruit other kind of units and even posting that everyone should be aware that those things cant be ordered is not harming or hurting anyone, and whoever reports that is just an !@#$%^& with a personal beef trying to OOC ruin the other person. Even a monkey would understand that.
Bottom line... If Titans are going to be the ones in charge of controlling the game athmosphere, they need to be people with a certain degree of judgement, and diplomacy. My case should serve as an example, of my wrong decissions and of the wrong course of actions taken by the game masters.
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It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point.
That's crap. In no way do you *ever* need to violate the IRs. There is no possible scenario where violating the IRs is *ever* acceptable, or unavoidable.
You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong.
Not gonna happen. No way. No how. The Titans are not mediators, or some kind of feel-good-dispute-resolution team. Displaying the particular message which sparked the report may not always be possible. For example, if a message was sent to one specific person, and that message was provided in the judgment, the person receiving the punishment would know exactly who reported them. Or perhaps they would only think they knew, because that person passed the letter to someone else, and that second person reported them.
Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person?
Show me a case where that happened. Make sure it uses those exact words, and is not liberally laced with profanity.
A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.
What makes you think they don't already do that? From what I've read of this thread, you were the subject of multiple reports. How do you know that each case wasn't reported by a different person, or by multiple players?
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It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point. What am i suppose to do, print it and have it pasted next to my computed and revise that any letter, request or order that i send does not touch any of that? Come on...
You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong. Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person? Then if there is a repetition of the same person protesting the same person you need the Titan to be able to judge if there is no personal beef against that person, to investigate who that player is. Is there a repetition of the same acting? I mean did he kept requesting that person to recruit the type of unit he needs? or does he keep requesting him not to enter that tournament? Or is the same protester reporting another thing completely different? Does it really makes his gaming time get ruined? A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.
IR and Social Contract should be used as a guide to judge players behavious. Clearly if a player sends a letter requesting his marshals to see if their archer units can recruit other kind of units and even posting that everyone should be aware that those things cant be ordered is not harming or hurting anyone, and whoever reports that is just an !@#$%^& with a personal beef trying to OOC ruin the other person. Even a monkey would understand that.
Bottom line... If Titans are going to be the ones in charge of controlling the game athmosphere, they need to be people with a certain degree of judgement, and diplomacy. My case should serve as an example, of my wrong decissions and of the wrong course of actions taken by the game masters.
I am sure your case will serve as an example. Like Tim said, he wants suggestions to improve the system.
Some of your points would be nice additions to how Titans should operate for sure. They shouldn't be punishing people before guiding them.
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That's crap. In no way do you *ever* need to violate the IRs. There is no possible scenario where violating the IRs is *ever* acceptable, or unavoidable.
Yes there is a case, when your whole realm believes that you (leader) requesting people to get infantry instead of archers is great, and the ones been requested are happy because their General/Marshals contacted them privately requesting them something and feel great about been able to help the realm other than just moving. There you go, a perfect example.
Not gonna happen. No way. No how. The Titans are not mediators, or some kind of feel-good-dispute-resolution team. Displaying the particular message which sparked the report may not always be possible. For example, if a message was sent to one specific person, and that message was provided in the judgment, the person receiving the punishment would know exactly who reported them. Or perhaps they would only think they knew, because that person passed the letter to someone else, and that second person reported them.
Then if Titans do not moderate, situations like this will keep happening. Players will keep feeling that they are treated like !@#$, over people that the IC exceeds their capabilities and just have a personal beef and needs to protest everything they can to have that "rival" punished somehow.
Show me a case where that happened. Make sure it uses those exact words, and is not liberally laced with profanity.
What makes you think they don't already do that? From what I've read of this thread, you were the subject of multiple reports. How do you know that each case wasn't reported by a different person, or by multiple players?
I cant show you anything cause i have deleted my account. (EDIT: erased a bunch of irrelevant information that would only bring more unnecesary drama)
As i have stated... Titans need to keep a balance between people really getting frustrated about other player's act and people with a personal beef or other goals for that protest. Titans need to moderate otherwise this will keep happening.
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Erased quote that the original poster also erased.
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That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.
No, i have never attacked anyone, Tom. I was merely suggesting or rather discussing the issues here. There are two things involved here. One, being that it seems any suggestions or discussions are treated as offensive - case in point being mine which is not true at all because i am viewing from neutral POV as i am not involved in the issue nor the realm whatsoever. Secondly, so in a way, you mentioned that the Titans where 'wrong'. I see no apologies there.
Which goes back to the point previously stated.
Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",
It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.
What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players. In my opinion, that particular sentence is up to your interpretation(just like religious writings).
I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.
Though, i do also felt that Hinamoto over-reacted. Yes, you could had felt you were misjudged, but you could had stood up for yourself a little bit different. Flaming fire with fire doesn't work. I do wish for you to comeback one way or another however, if it is true that you are a great players. Create a new account and start all over again anonymous. Nobody will know who you were - if that helps you better. Do it for the other players - not the Titans nor Tom. After all, the game is great because of all the players' contributions.
Just my 2 cents.
*Hinamoto - come join Melhed in Beluaterra. Hahaha :p
Like i said, i do not wish to offend anyone. Merely suggesting improvements. If every suggestion is being debunked, i do not see the way to improve it in the first place.
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Yes there is a case, when your whole realm believes that you (leader) requesting people to get infantry instead of archers is great, and the ones been requested are happy because their General/Marshals contacted them privately requesting them something and feel great about been able to help the realm other than just moving. There you go, a perfect example.
This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.
You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.
* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.
* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)
I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.
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Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.
If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.
If it were funny if it weren't so sad.
And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.
I have not felt, when I was a Magistrate, that I was getting any harassment whatsoever. Nor did I notice any serious attacks upon other magistrates. A few against the system as a whole, but the magistrates never needed to fear any kind of retribution. Anonymity was not required. Indeed, the only cases of the animosity you describe happening were directed against the anonymous titans, in great part because precisely they were anonymous.
That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.
The magistrates would never have ruled the same verdict the titans did. Why? Because we took into consideration all of the stuff that you stated over the years, and you have made this painfully clear on multiple occasions. I seem to even recall a case on the unit type IR where we ruled not guilty because of this. They SHOULD have known. The behavior their punished had been accepted for a very long time. At the very least, it was publicly stated by myself in the official case threads: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1068.msg21203.html#msg21203
The titan system is a bad concept. It is fundamentally flawed. I get that you don't like procedure, and that this is just a game and that you don't like the legalese of a copy-court. Valid sentiments. But the reactions of the accused, under the titan system, are both completely predictable and justifiable. "What's a one-day lock?", you say? Sure, life goes on. It's not prison. It's not really much of a sanction at all. What it is is an insult. It is shame. It is hostile. Cold. Unfriendly. It is unpredictable, inexplicable, arbitrary.
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This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.
You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.
* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.
* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)
I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.
"These rights are OOC fun-preserving tools. They are meant to guarantee you, the player, can participate in the game properly."
IR are there for that. Having a player motivated because the general/marshal requests him something other than moving here or there might even be positive. Im sorry but what you wrote does not refute my example.
Just for the record i have barely requested anyone or even the marshals to do this but on very specific circumstances, i dont think that doing this is exclusive to be a good general, not really important to argue about that.
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Wow, 6 pages of comments over a minor breach and the responses made to that.
Unless I am missing something crucial it really seems that this is a huge storm in a very small teacup. Hinamoto, although I appreciate your aggravation, it looks like you have massively over-reacted - furthermore it strikes me that your beef is with the players who hounded you and reported you for something which is really very open to interpretation in the first place. As I see it like it or lump it the titans did their job in responding to someone who felt violated by your actions. What has happened and dragged out in this forum since really seems utterly over stated on all sides ever since.
You were caught foul of the interpretation of the rules, it seems to me you are the only person who sees you as bad for the game because of this, I have read little that is not in support of your excellent game play and personal character. - Perhaps you should reflect more on the support you have had in these forums than the few oversensitive or 'gamesy' players within your realm who saw fit to report you.
I would like to know two things from you:
Was it a rage quit?
and if it was.
Do you regret your rage quit?
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I would like to know two things from you:
Was it a rage quit?
and if it was.
Do you regret your rage quit?
It was a quit according to the actions. I got suddenly punished so i have suddenly quitted. They have told me that my quit was rushed that i should have waited to see why was all about, but i tell them the same about their actions, they should have waited and consulted me and giving me a chance to explain.
Do i regret it? Well no. While i know i have done some things wrong, i still consider that they have damaged my reputation wrongly and i havent got a single apology, so no.
Regards,
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It was a quit according to the actions. I got suddenly punished so i have suddenly quitted. They have told me that my quit was rushed that i should have waited to see why was all about, but i tell them the same about their actions, they should have waited and consulted me and giving me a chance to explain.
As you have already been told, and should have known perfectly well, since you're very keen to make sure we know you've been playing for 6 years, that's not the way the Titans operate. If you broke the rules, you broke the rules, and you get a punishment that is deemed appropriate. 90% of the people who have been punished over the years would, if we "consulted them and gave them a chance to explain," have dozens of reasons why what they did wasn't a violation, or if it was, why it shouldn't count.
Basically, you're asking the Titans to leave punishments up to the person being punished, and that's just obviously not going to work.
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As you have already been told, and should have known perfectly well, since you're very keen to make sure we know you've been playing for 6 years, that's not the way the Titans operate. If you broke the rules, you broke the rules, and you get a punishment that is deemed appropriate. 90% of the people who have been punished over the years would, if we "consulted them and gave them a chance to explain," have dozens of reasons why what they did wasn't a violation, or if it was, why it shouldn't count.
Basically, you're asking the Titans to leave punishments up to the person being punished, and that's just obviously not going to work.
I have been also keen to say that in those 6 years i have never been reported over anything, how should i know how the titans operate? I have always worried about the IC all the titans thing for me was a whole unknown thing, why should i worry to know? I have always played fair.
A person never reported in 6 years suddenly gets tons of protests its odd. I could have perfectly been asked about and probably prove that the intentions behind the reports are a personal beef over IC interactions or actions. Then and even when i could have messed with some of the IR (subject to interpretation) the real motive would be different than what the IR was created and that is preserve the OOC fun.
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At least give the guy an opportunity to speak to the allegations before he's convicted. Sheesh. This is supposed to be a game among friends. No game I ever played with friends involved secret proceedings. Even real whistleblower cases don't dispense with the basic principles of fairness and due process.
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I didnt started this topic, but i hope it gets closed.
There is nothing else to add and nothing else to say. I have a deep admiration for the ones behind this game because they are constantly taking care of it without asking anything in return and i dont want to put anyone between the sword and the wall, i want to clarify that in this topic i just stood for my convinctions as a player and as a person.
I have done wrong in some aspects and i have apologised to the ones i considered i had to, and got the reply i was expecting from the only person i cared to get a reply from.
Whatever that can be said here, wont help to solve the situation so i reafirm my statement that this thread should be closed.
I hope that my case helps to improve the game or have fresh ideas and i really hope you all keep having fun.
To my friends or those who liked to play around me, who knows, maybe our paths crosses again sometime ;)
Regards,
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Then and even when i could have messed with some of the IR (subject to interpretation) the real motive would be different than what the IR was created and that is preserve the OOC fun.
Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.
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Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.
What about the other 3-4 reports before that one? I got the day lock because of the accumulation of reports at least that was what the comment said.
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Titan Judgement - 2 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes ago
message to all nobles of Sirion
The Titans have issued a public verdict in the case against Juan Andrés Belile, the player of the Hinamoto family. The text of their verdict follows:
If there are any issues or complaints regarding Titan's decision, there is one, and only one, avenue of discussion or appeal that is acceptable: Direct email to tom@battlemaster.org or titans@battlemaster.org.
In addition, insulting other players is a violation of the Social Contract.
We suggest that you take the opportunity to step back for a day, and relax.
Doesn't look like it was due to accumulation of reports that got you a lock. They told you to cool down. Instead you exploded.
Whoever insists in constantly reporting me, you are so tiny that you need to fight me OOC because IC you are not man/woman enough to do it.
Also this is why the titans shouldn't reveal the complainer. You wanted to pick a fight with this person. I wonder how many people will either threaten/be dicks to others IC for reporting them to the titans but probably this is the main reason why the titans are protecting the identity of the complainer.
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Doesn't look like it was due to accumulation of reports that got you a lock. They told you to cool down. Instead you exploded.
Also this is why the titans shouldn't reveal the complainer. You wanted to pick a fight with this person. I wonder how many people will either threaten/be dicks to others IC for reporting them to the titans but probably this is the main reason why the titans are protecting the identity of the complainer.
In addition, insulting other players is a violation of the Social Contract.
Thanks to post that i didnt recalled what i said. I was not trying to pick a fight but lure that person into showing himself so i can understand why that person was reporting me and take action with whoever should be informed about a player with an OOC beef towards me.
By the way, i was wrong in saying that OOC realm wide, but what the message contains is 110% true. And taking that as real insult is for someone very suceptible. I had way bigger argues with the Fleishers/Flockharts with way more things said than that.
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Just for the record, the lock was of no importance to me. The report before that one went public and as soon as that happened, i mailed Tom. Happened again over that ooc and quitted.
But what made me feel bad was the public harm to my reputation. The rest is just decoration.
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I didnt started this topic, but i hope it gets closed.
There is nothing else to add and nothing else to say. I have a deep admiration for the ones behind this game because they are constantly taking care of it without asking anything in return and i dont want to put anyone between the sword and the wall, i want to clarify that in this topic i just stood for my convinctions as a player and as a person.
I have done wrong in some aspects and i have apologised to the ones i considered i had to, and got the reply i was expecting from the only person i cared to get a reply from.
Whatever that can be said here, wont help to solve the situation so i reafirm my statement that this thread should be closed.
I hope that my case helps to improve the game or have fresh ideas and i really hope you all keep having fun.
To my friends or those who liked to play around me, who knows, maybe our paths crosses again sometime ;)
Regards,
Very gracious. It takes a big man to take responsibility for his faults. I'd shake you hand if I could. :)
Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.
This is a needless provocation. He was punished, he apologized, and he said he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.
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P.S. Please come back to the game. You'd fit right in in Asylon (Dwilight).
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Thanks to post that i didnt recalled what i said. I was not trying to pick a fight but lure that person into showing himself so i can understand why that person was reporting me and take action with whoever should be informed about a player with an OOC beef towards me.
By the way, i was wrong in saying that OOC realm wide, but what the message contains is 110% true. And taking that as real insult is for someone very suceptible. I had way bigger argues with the Fleishers/Flockharts with way more things said than that.
That is the whole point of anonymity of complainer I think. To give them the protection from people who want to pick a fight. I can't imagine you being all nice to the complainer from seeing your reaction. Your ooc letter looked pretty angry. Sure you were trying to 'lure' this person out but you could have kindly asked the person to contact you instead. Also, insults are insult because whoever was on the receiving end felt insulted. It doesn't matter you think it isn't an insult. Whoever saw that felt insulted and only that matters. People react differently to different things. You can't expect everyone to act in a cool and calm manner.
As for IR, I think they should be very clear so people don't end up with their own versions of IR. The titans seem to punish whoever go near IR but some of them are too closely related to the game meaning for some of them there is a very thin line between not violating IR and violating it. In my opinion, something that punishes people hard should always be very clear.
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What about the other 3-4 reports before that one? I got the day lock because of the accumulation of reports at least that was what the comment said.
What 3-4 additional reports? There were only 2 reports shared realm-wide, including this one.
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This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.
You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.
* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.
* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)
I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.
I have just one question, so what was the letter that Ryu sent that got him the 'warning'? It seems to me the previously attached ones are perfectly valid. He asked his marshals to try to ask ppl to get certain type of units. So it really depends on how the marshal does it, isn't it? He didn't specifically asked anyone to do just that.
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What 3-4 additional reports? There were only 2 reports shared realm-wide, including this one.
There were other reports before the first realm wide one about recruiting specific unit types.
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The magistrate system was flawed but it worked better than this will.
Are you kidding me?
It often took months to come to a conclusion, at which time nobody clearly remembered what the problem had been in the first place, and the resulting verdicts were not any less controversial.
Your definition of "worked better" is quite daring.
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Problem with IRs are they are not set in stone.
Wrong. They are set in stone.
Some people interpret in a different way and that may cause confusion among people.
Their interpretation doesn't matter. In the end, my interpretation matters. Interpreting IRs does not invalidate them, the wiki even explicitly says so.
Not to an individual. You can never request someone to change their unit type, especially as general and marshal.
All of this is just the specific kind of lawyer-arguing that I hate. The IR is not about how you write your text, it is about your intention. No, not even that. It is about what a right of the recipient. He can recruit any unit type he wants to.
So no matter what you say or how you say it, if you respect, allow and not penalize the choice of unit type, you are fine. If you do, you are not. There is no gray area. The only gray we have is that we are not mind readers and don't know your intentions, we only know your words.
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Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun.
I agree, but we cannot control other people.
I recall Galmel getting light bolted for stating that no one should assist a tournament in an enemy realm, wtf is that? He didnt ordered !@#$, he just stated something completely logical and got light bolted probably by the same lower mind that reported me.
With absolute certainty not, because the only person who can do lighting bolts is me (and since a short time now, Tim). And that there is as clear a breaking of the IR as they come, because attending tournaments is an IR and telling people not to, in whatever words, is a direct violation.
Why my deletion brought all this attention? Exactly for that. Because now people questions the methods the owners use to solve situations,
Nonsense, you could've had a discussion without rage-quitting.
Tom, you have created a MAGNIFICENT game, you are probably brilliant, but in all honestly, that kind of thinking will not solve this game's main problem.
It also doesn't make it worse. We've had this system for almost 10 years now, and no matter what you think about it, our community is leaps and bounds above anything else I've seen, and light years ahead of things like LoL.
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The IR is not about how you write your text, it is about your intention. No, not even that. It is about what a right of the recipient. He can recruit any unit type he wants to.
So no matter what you say or how you say it, if you respect, allow and not penalize the choice of unit type, you are fine. If you do, you are not. There is no gray area. The only gray we have is that we are not mind readers and don't know your intentions, we only know your words.
I think this part clarifies a lot. Can you add this to the IR as well, Tom? Or is it already there?
It also doesn't make it worse. We've had this system for almost 10 years now, and no matter what you think about it, our community is leaps and bounds above anything else I've seen, and light years ahead of things like LoL.
You can't compare any other community with LoL. They are one of the worst communities out there... I think anything is better than LoL community.
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This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.
Good to know that I cannot order them, but instead, BUY them.
Much better. 8)
***
This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.
Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work. In a perfect world they would all be offering gold and whores instead of ordering, but we don't know, since Ryu was punished first and just now we really know there's a "rule" to "avoid the rule". For me, this is new and with 5k gold, I can have a realm of pure Infantry being gentle instead of being... a General.
Magic.
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This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.
omg, are you for real? There's a rule for bypassing the rule? Sure there is... There's a law that says if you murder someone, you will go to jail. But there's a cool way to bypass the rule: Don't kill anyone.
The IR is that people can play the unit type they want to play. The "circumvention" involves... magic indeed... allowing them to play whatever unit type they want to play. What a loophole!
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I think this part clarifies a lot. Can you add this to the IR as well, Tom? Or is it already there?
It's already there:
The inalienable rights are: (...)
Choosing which type of unit to command
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Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work.
No, they just sent a reminder of the rule, just in case.
Considering there "three or four private warnings" prior to that, I kind of understand.
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Are you kidding me?
It often took months to come to a conclusion, at which time nobody clearly remembered what the problem had been in the first place, and the resulting verdicts were not any less controversial.
Your definition of "worked better" is quite daring.
No, realistic. People will always disagree with the verdict, but there are ways to improve the magistrate system without throwing out what was good about it. You will lose more players this way, and the verdicts will be more controversial, not less.
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The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.
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The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.
This. Also, Magistrate cases didn't help people vent their frustration. It fueled the fire instead.
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The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.
How is this thread not a huge brouhaha?[size=80%] [/size]Just let them argue. If they're wrong, then their arguments will fall flat. They may still disagree with the verdict, but at least they will have been allowed to speak their peace. If people thought the Magistrates system was flawed, making it secret is not going to dispel those doubts.
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How is this thread not a huge brouhaha?
I didn't say it wasn't. However, it is the first major case since the reconstitution of the Titans, so it's not a huge surprise.
Just let them argue.
No.
You know we have rules against flamewars on this forum for a reason, right?
If they're wrong, then their arguments will fall flat.
Whether they're right or wrong, it perpetuates a negative atmosphere that drives people away from the game.
They may still disagree with the verdict, but at least they will have been allowed to speak their peace.
I don't see why you think that will help. In my experience, the fact that they told you why he obviously had to be innocent, but you still found him guilty, will make them even more angry afterwards.
Furthermore, there's been some research coming out within the past decade that shows pretty strongly that the "catharsis" we humans feel when we vent our anger doesn't actually reduce stress, anger, or anything else. On the contrary, it makes us more likely to get angry again later, and seek to vent that anger again. This is not the kind of thing we want to be encouraging.
If people thought the Magistrates system was flawed, making it secret is not going to dispel those doubts.
Again, you persist in treating the Titans as if they're some kind of new version of the Magistrates, only with secrecy. I've already told you that's not the case: the Titans have existed, with more secrecy and less openness than they have now, for nearly a decade.
Furthermore, you seem to be taking our statement that the Magistrates were a failed experiment as meaning that "people thought it was flawed." That's not the case. It failed because it made the atmosphere worse with all the bitter OOC arguments. I don't believe the general attitude toward the Magistrates was significantly different than that toward the Titans.
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Good to know that I cannot order them, but instead, BUY them.
Much better. 8)
***
This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.
Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work. In a perfect world they would all be offering gold and whores instead of ordering, but we don't know, since Ryu was punished first and just now we really know there's a "rule" to "avoid the rule". For me, this is new and with 5k gold, I can have a realm of pure Infantry being gentle instead of being... a General.
Magic.
Are you and Hinamoto new to the game all of a sudden? Serious i'm shocked this is even still being warranted because this is a issue that was resolved long before the war island left and Dwilight was made, hell the loop holes were much more rampant back in 03-05, this is the last remaining one I can drum up that is still being used and is viable.
Now for Hinamoto, you made a mistake thank you for acknowledging it, do you really need to continue this show? Your rage delete/quit, by my standards are considered to be 2-3 days after such a conflict occurs. Seems to be a mistake, we all get fed up, our actions are on our own.
I don't often side on issue that are such well popular, but the real issue is that we need to let people know that this is a game that we play and we play with one another, play as if with friends and don't take everything so personal.
Note* Anyone who thinks Tom is attempting to benefit off of such action I believe you truly do not know how much effort that guy has put in to make this game enjoyable, same goes to Anaris, and the other who still lurk.
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I didn't say it wasn't. However, it is the first major case since the reconstitution of the Titans, so it's not a huge surprise.
This is the first, and it will only get worse.
You know we have rules against flamewars on this forum for a reason, right?
Argument does not equal flamewar.
Whether they're right or wrong, it perpetuates a negative atmosphere that drives people away from the game.
This system will do exactly that and more effectively.
I don't see why you think that will help. In my experience, the fact that they told you why he obviously had to be innocent, but you still found him guilty, will make them even more angry afterwards.
The accused in this case quit the game after 6 years. There's no greater expression of anger than that. Despite acknowledging that he acted inappropriately, it was the de-humanized process that made him want to leave.
Furthermore, there's been some research coming out within the past decade that shows pretty strongly that the "catharsis" we humans feel when we vent our anger doesn't actually reduce stress, anger, or anything else. On the contrary, it makes us more likely to get angry again later, and seek to vent that anger again. This is not the kind of thing we want to be encouraging.
Some research? Give me any point of view and I'll find you a research paper on EBSCOHost to support and refute it. But that's really not the point. You're equating open debate and due process with venting and catharsis, which, with all respect, is a Grand Canyon sized generalization.
Again, you persist in treating the Titans as if they're some kind of new version of the Magistrates, only with secrecy. I've already told you that's not the case: the Titans have existed, with more secrecy and less openness than they have now, for nearly a decade.
It doesn't matter which one came first.
Furthermore, you seem to be taking our statement that the Magistrates were a failed experiment as meaning that "people thought it was flawed." That's not the case. It failed because it made the atmosphere worse with all the bitter OOC arguments. I don't believe the general attitude toward the Magistrates was significantly different than that toward the Titans.
It didn't fail because of being ineffective, it failed because you (the devs team) decided to dismantle it instead of improving it. It's like never changing the oil in your car, driving it into a ditch, and saying "see, I told you it was a piece of !@#$!"
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Note* Anyone who thinks Tom is attempting to benefit off of such action I believe you truly do not know how much effort that guy has put in to make this game enjoyable, same goes to Anaris, and the other who still lurk.
I don't think I've heard anyone accusing them of that. I hear them repeatedly complain as though they were being accused by everyone and their dog on an hourly basis, but who is really cares?
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This is the first, and it will only get worse.
This system will do exactly that and more effectively.
[citation needed]
The accused in this case quit the game after 6 years. There's no greater expression of anger than that. Despite acknowledging that he acted inappropriately, it was the de-humanized process that made him want to leave.
He overreacted. It happens. Some people just can't handle the idea that they can actually be called to account for their actions. I will not, however, accept the blame for that, either on my own behalf or that of the Titans.
Some research? Give me any point of view and I'll find you a research paper on EBSCOHost to support and refute it. But that's really not the point. You're equating open debate and due process with venting and catharsis, which, with all respect, is a Grand Canyon sized generalization.
You're the one equating the Magistrates or Titans with due process, not me. No one ever said they were, should be, or ever would be the equivalent of a court in any country in the world.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I said exactly the opposite.
Furthermore, you're also the one who has been claiming that allowing people to argue, and get it all out, is helpful. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be the case if not for catharsis. If I've misunderstood your meaning, though, I do apologize.
It didn't fail because of being ineffective, it failed because you (the devs team) decided to dismantle it instead of improving it. It's like never changing the oil in your car, driving it into a ditch, and saying "see, I told you it was a piece of !@#$!"
Buffalkill, the exact things that you are claiming make it superior are the things we believe made it a failure.
Unless I'm deeply misunderstanding you, there is no possible way to reconcile our points of view, and create a system that will satisfy our requirements and yours. So I'm really not sure that there's much point in continuing this.
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I don't think I've heard anyone accusing them of that. I hear them repeatedly complain as though they were being accused by everyone and their dog on an hourly basis, but who is really cares?
Hinamoto was accusing us of exactly that. He stated, repeatedly, that he felt that the "coincidence" in timing of him having just become General and turned around a war, and then getting punished (with a warning) by the Titans for the first time, could not possibly have been anything but a conspiracy against him.
And he's not the first to make accusations like that, either. Many people seem to feel that when they are punished for wrongdoing, those punishing them must have a vested interest in their downfall.
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Hinamoto was accusing us of exactly that. He stated, repeatedly, that he felt that the "coincidence" in timing of him having just become General and turned around a war, and then getting punished (with a warning) by the Titans for the first time, could not possibly have been anything but a conspiracy against him.
And he's not the first to make accusations like that, either. Many people seem to feel that when they are punished for wrongdoing, those punishing them must have a vested interest in their downfall.
He was clearly talking about his accuser(s) who he believes brought a disingenuous complaint against him for IG advantage. I have no opinion on that, but that's what Hinamoto believes. The only thing he accused the devs of, is creating the Titan system, which he believes his IG adversaries used against him. He never said that you, Anaris, and you, Tom, personally went after him. I think he made that pretty clear.
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He overreacted. It happens. Some people just can't handle the idea that they can actually be called to account for their actions. I will not, however, accept the blame for that, either on my own behalf or that of the Titans.
He's responsible for his actions, and he said so repeatedly. But you also said that the Magistrates system failed because it drove ppl away from the game. If ppl rage quitted during or after a Magistrate case, it doesn't mean the Magistrate system per se drove them away. It can just as easily be attributed to the conflict that preceded the Magistrate case, or that they perceive the rules to be unfair.
You're the one equating the Magistrates or Titans with due process, not me. No one ever said they were, should be, or ever would be the equivalent of a court in any country in the world.
I use the term loosely sometimes. It just means procedural fairness.
Furthermore, you're also the one who has been claiming that allowing people to argue, and get it all out, is helpful. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be the case if not for catharsis. If I've misunderstood your meaning, though, I do apologize.
No. I never said anything about catharsis or venting. I said people, especially when they're being accused of wrongdoing, should be allowed to say their peace before a judgement is made and a punishment imposed. It has nothing to do with a court of law. I use the same principle when I punish my kids or fire an employee, not to make them happy about it, but because fairness demands it.
Buffalkill, the exact things that you are claiming make it superior are the things we believe made it a failure.
Unless I'm deeply misunderstanding you, there is no possible way to reconcile our points of view, and create a system that will satisfy our requirements and yours. So I'm really not sure that there's much point in continuing this.
So we disagree, and yet the sky didn't fall. Weird. ;) I don't expect you to be seduced by my reasoning about this or about anything. But there's no harm debating ideas.
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He was clearly talking about his accuser(s) who he believes brought a disingenuous complaint against him for IG advantage. I have no opinion on that, but that's what Hinamoto believes. The only thing he accused the devs of, is creating the Titan system, which he believes his IG adversaries used against him. He never said that you, Anaris, and you, Tom, personally went after him. I think he made that pretty clear.
I am going to strongly disagree with you on that. It seemed to me he was implying it. I directly asked him if that was his belief and he skirted around it saying:
Im claiming that the reports came coincidentially with an in-game set of events. I dont believe in coincidences, and since policy is that everything remains in silent, and annonymus i am entitled to believe whatever i want to believe.
I put the 6 years example because 6 years compared to 1 week its quiet an enormous amount of time, what? there was no one monitoring this great rules violator?. I put the friends example, to prove that im not a game hurter and that most of the players interacting with me even enemies had fun or appreciated me to be someone publically etiquetted as a game hurter.
There is nothing else to discuss. Im clearly a person with a boiled temper, i never messed with anyone OOC, i've never exploited a bug in favor (in fact i most of the bugs hurted my plannings more than helping). I believe someone tried to perjudicate me, and i think i got wrongly punished. I believe my reputation was questioned and that is something that after 6 years and with my background wont tolerate.
Im done here.
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I am going to strongly disagree with you on that. It seemed to me he was implying it. I directly asked him if that was his belief and he skirted around it saying:
I just re-read all of his posts and, respectfully, I think you're reading into it what you want to read into it. He's angry that somebody reported him, that's clear, and he's angry about how the Titans handled it. It's a pretty huge leap to read "I don't believe in coincidences" to mean that Tom Vogt and Timothy Collett are "attempting to benefit off of such action", which is what was being asserted.
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I just re-read all of his posts and, respectfully, I think you're reading into it what you want to read into it. He's angry that somebody reported him, that's clear, and he's angry about how the Titans handled it. It's a pretty huge leap to read "I don't believe in coincidences" to mean that Tom Vogt and Timothy Collett are "attempting to benefit off of such action", which is what was being asserted.
He is not saying Tom or Tim went after him. He is saying someone oocly went after him and Titans approved of that.
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I'm a bit lost here. Hinamoto is done with this. Isnt this case closed?
I cant see anything open here anymore? People seem to argue just for sake of arguing and disagreeing.
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People seem to argue just for sake of arguing and disagreeing.
No they don't. Prove it!
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jaune is right. This thread has gone back and forth long enough.