BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Tom on November 13, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
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Important announcements should be made on the game, be it through the announcements, a short OOC message sent to everyone, or a message put on the page, in the game is where the important announcements should be made.
Announcements are pointless. The game is long-term and announcements vanish after a short while.
The wiki is the proper place for the game "memory". Oh, and look: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies
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Announcements are pointless. The game is long-term and announcements vanish after a short while.
The wiki is the proper place for the game "memory". Oh, and look: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies
The Rules don't and shouldn't change often.
The point that was made is that a list of current bugs would be useful. It's hard to know you're exploiting a bug if you don't know it's a bug. This is a good point, regardless of whether the current case is seen as a violation of the Rules or a bug exploit or just a bug.
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The news ticker still has stuff from Oct. 8th Tom. That's over a month ago. Long term enough that people will have seen it. Also, last I checked the wiki DEFINITELY wasn't a required part for someone to play Battlemaster. People are even less likely to check there than the forums...
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Also, last I checked the wiki DEFINITELY wasn't a required part for someone to play Battlemaster.
On the game's home page, there is a link to basics.php, which links to the wiki. There is also a left-hand side link to the game manual, which is on the wiki. Reading all of the wiki is not required, but there are some things which you should know and are on the wiki.
I went ahead and added a link to the Rules and Policies page on the Manual.
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I would just like to point out, that the ban was made intentionally with the knowledge that it was "impossible" for Allison to take her duchy away with her.
My character wouldn't be so stupid as to ban someone who could actually get away with taking regions away from the realm in order to avoid it.
Imo, this is also abusive. Doesn't feel right that you can do anything you want to the duke of a realm's last duchy, their position of duke becomes quasi meaningless. Dukes of single-duchy realms ought to have more protections to compensate for their lack of actions... Mind you, they could always rebel.
(I'm not saying you should be punished, it's intentional game behavior right now. I just think it should work otherwise).
Announcements are pointless. The game is long-term and announcements vanish after a short while.
The wiki is the proper place for the game "memory". Oh, and look: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies
Relying solely on announcements is unwise. However, announcements complement the other documentation quite well.
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The Rules don't and shouldn't change often.
The point that was made is that a list of current bugs would be useful. It's hard to know you're exploiting a bug if you don't know it's a bug. This is a good point, regardless of whether the current case is seen as a violation of the Rules or a bug exploit or just a bug.
If you don't know it is a bug or not, then you should ask before you act.
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Also, last I checked the wiki DEFINITELY wasn't a required part for someone to play Battlemaster.
Wrong.
The Inalienable Rights, Rules and Policies, and notice to new Government members are all on the wiki and are all required reading. Players are expected to abide by the rules and guidelines laid out in each of these pages.
Imo, this is also abusive.
No, it isn't.
Doesn't feel right that you can do anything you want to the duke of a realm's last duchy, their position of duke becomes quasi meaningless. Dukes of single-duchy realms ought to have more protections to compensate for their lack of actions... Mind you, they could always rebel.
Why do they need protection? They're a duke in a single-duchy realm, which should make them the single most powerful person in the realm. If they can't protect themselves, why should the game protect them?
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If you don't know it is a bug or not, then you should ask before you act.
If you should have known, it's an exploit. Otherwise, it's a mistake. There is no point in making knowing more difficult than it should be. Figuring out the rules is not part of the game.
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In this case, dustole was both aware that the action should not have been possible (re: a bug) and that the action was against the rules (re: cheating). He did it anyway.
I'm not trying to judge the case here. The Magistrates are for that, I'm not one. I'm just saying that, regardless of the results of this case, announcement of major bugs which cannot be swiftly fixed would be useful.
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Wrong.
The Inalienable Rights, Rules and Policies, and notice to new Government members are all on the wiki and are all required reading. Players are expected to abide by the rules and guidelines laid out in each of these pages.
No, it isn't.
Why do they need protection? They're a duke in a single-duchy realm, which should make them the single most powerful person in the realm. If they can't protect themselves, why should the game protect them?
I never read through the entire wiki rules section, and I imagine many new players don't either. If it's required reading, then it should be there when someone makes a new account, before they press accept to create said account. I believe it already is there, but still, my point stands that most people don't read the wiki, and even so, a bug is definitely not something I would think of to look in the wiki for first.
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I never read through the entire wiki, and I imagine many new players don't either.
That's fine. No one said you had to.
Now, if you would actually read what ^ban^ said, rather than attacking your pet strawman, you would see that what is actually required reading is a very few pages on the Wiki, all of which are given prominent links in relevant places.
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That's fine. No one said you had to.
Now, if you would actually read what ^ban^ said, rather than attacking your pet strawman, you would see that what is actually required reading is a very few pages on the Wiki, all of which are given prominent links in relevant places.
Changed my post for accuracy, please reread.
In fact, I honestly do not know where these links are. Could you point out where they are?
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Changed my post for accuracy, please reread.
In fact, I honestly do not know where these links are. Could you point out where they are?
....all of them (edit: and more) are linked from the Rules and Policies page, which has already been linked in this thread. If you're going to contribute to a case, please at least take the time to read what has already been posted.
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Why do they need protection? They're a duke in a single-duchy realm, which should make them the single most powerful person in the realm. If they can't protect themselves, why should the game protect them?
You've taken away their ability to protect themselves by preventing them from changing allegiance or succeeding, making them effectively politically powerless.
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You've taken away their ability to protect themselves by preventing them from changing allegiance or succeeding, making them effectively politically powerless.
Right, because all the political power in the game is derived from the links you, personally, can click to change stuff.
....Wait a sec....
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Right, because all the political power in the game is derived from the links you, personally, can click to change stuff.
....Wait a sec....
The reason a duke of a one-realm duchy should be powerful is that he can destroy the realm. The reason you should decentralize power is to make sure that one duke doesn't have all the power. At present, the most politically stable realm design that gives the least direct power to the dukes is to have one duke, which doesn't really make sense, nor is it really balanced. Why should a small duke be more directly powerful than a large one?
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Why should a small duke be more directly powerful than a large one?
In a rural town the sheriff may well have more power directly at his disposal than the mayor (Though of course he can't change the town to a different county).
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Right, because all the political power in the game is derived from the links you, personally, can click to change stuff.
....Wait a sec....
The ban button is a pretty damn powerful link. Nothing else can strip someone of their titles.
Fleeing the realm with what you've got is the only way to escape it. Dukes of single-duchy realms are not supposed to do that.
So what are a single-duchy realm's duke's options if banned? Get the judge protested? Will that even cancel the ban? If not, though luck. 3 turns for a normal ban, there's no way you'll get a new judge in time to reverse it. Rebel? This isn't the ruler we are talking about. And you need to be ready for it when it happens... I'm not even sure if someone banned can rebel.
There's nothing he can do to save his titles. And this is wrong, imo. This is a rule I really hate. These things should be handled by tough in-game mechanics, not by OOC rules.
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The ban button is a pretty damn powerful link. Nothing else can strip someone of their titles.
Fleeing the realm with what you've got is the only way to escape it. Dukes of single-duchy realms are not supposed to do that.
So what are a single-duchy realm's duke's options if banned? Get the judge protested? Will that even cancel the ban? If not, though luck. 3 turns for a normal ban, there's no way you'll get a new judge in time to reverse it. Rebel? This isn't the ruler we are talking about. And you need to be ready for it when it happens... I'm not even sure if someone banned can rebel.
There's nothing he can do to save his titles. And this is wrong, imo. This is a rule I really hate. These things should be handled by tough in-game mechanics, not by OOC rules.
Who cares if you lose your titles if you have the support of the nobility?
All that means is that any lost titles is temporary in nature. A duke is highly likely to have the support of their vassals. Any Judge banning a Duke of a single duchy realm is likely to be protested out. The next judge can revoke the ban and the Duke can return and be reappointed. That seems extremely balanced to me. A Judge can't simply ban someone and know it'll work out in his favor all the time. They take a serious risk for all of their power.
Dukes however, have very very little risk for their enormous power. They can ONLY be removed by a judge. They have their position for life unlike judges (even if they currently do a Ruler can simply change it to make votes monthly). Single duchy realm dukes should have some drawback but that isn't even the reason for the game mechanic.
If the Duke of a single duchy realm decides to take everything they destroy the plans of every person in their realm in one fell swoop. They destroy four government titles. They cancel all wars/ambitions/plans/armies, etc... all in one fell swoop. That should NOT be able to happen. The fact that it can is a bug. I see no reason to support actually making it a feature.
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The discussion about what dukes can do is OT for this thread. Please the discussion back to the case at hand.
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What would happen if let's say the local lords decided to change allegiance to another realm on mass, leaving the duchy with no regions?
Witch player made the mistake? The first , the second,....... the last to leave?
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What would happen if let's say the local lords decided to change allegiance to another realm on mass, leaving the duchy with no regions?
Witch player made the mistake? The first , the second,....... the last to leave?
The one who takes the last city.
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Well that's a bull!@#$ arrangement.
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Well that's a bull!@#$ arrangement.
!@#$ happens.
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If the ream is left with just one city and no rurals to feed it it,s practicaly doomed.
What if a realm merger is considered a surrender. Realm A and B fight. Realm A surrenders all its regions to B. This way it saves B the trouble of having to innate a lot of takeovers.
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If the ream is left with just one city and no rurals to feed it it,s practicaly doomed.
What if a realm merger is considered a surrender. Realm A and B fight. Realm A surrenders all its regions to B. This way it saves B the trouble of having to innate a lot of takeovers.
Still considered a friendly realm merger. Want to take on destroy realm A, realm B take over all regions.
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Still considered a friendly realm merger. Want to take on destroy realm A, realm B take over all regions.
No, it is not. Please read the rules, they do say surrendering is allowed.
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No, it is not. Please read the rules, they do say surrendering is allowed.
Surrendering requires that the realms fight first. Allison did not "surrender" her duchy.
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Surrendering requires that the realms fight first. Allison did not "surrender" her duchy.
Uh, the hypothetical that Gustav's comment was in response to was specifically about surrendering...
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Perhaps this could be considered sort of rebellion. Basically what the duke is doing is kicking out the realm government and unlike rebellions it is foolproof.Better than protesting too.
The duke is basically the ultimate power in the one duchy realm.
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It is unreasonable to expect all players to have a detailed knowledge of what behaviors are bugs and what are not when the nature of the bug is such that it is not obviously a bug. IMO, and this is how I will vote as a Magistrate from this point forward, if the bug is not obvious in nature and it cannot be conclusively proven that a player operated in full awareness of the nature of the bug, you cannot punish a player for playing the game as it is presented to them.
If the game allows you to do something, then as far as I am concerned a player is doing nothing wrong by doing it unless the nature of the action is so obviously a bug that the player cannot reasonably have come to any other conclusion about it, and I am inclined to make that an extremely high bar to meet. If a bug exists that is game-unbalancing, then the burden of action is on the developers to rectify it, not on the players to be aware of it and avoid it. Until such a time as the developers take action, players should not be held responsible for playing the game as it is rather than game as it should be.
That is all I have to say on the subject. Please expect me to consistently apply a very high standard of evidence to complaints of this nature in the future.
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Yay... I have to wait three !@#$ing days to do my !@#$ing rp with Allison that was the only reason I unpaused my Gustav character because Tom doesn't have an announcement system for when bug exploits become known to be announced to the game. Great. Good job guys. Hope you're happy. Not to mention the player of Allison probably won't feel they did anything wrong, because there was no public announcement of the bug outside of the forums, friendly mergers is so vaguely defined that we regularly have arguments over what it really means, and there was a !@#$ing button in game that said they could move the duchy, leaving us with a punishment that is only going to leave bitterness and resentment rather than anything useful.
But, as I said, good job. Have a nice day, I will be off of Battlemaster for a while I cool off and wait for Allison to get back so I can continue the rp.
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But, as I said, good job. Have a nice day, I will be off of Battlemaster for a while I cool off and wait for Allison to get back so I can continue the rp.
After reading your childish rant, I believe that is for the best, and will welcome you back when you return.
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Yay... I have to wait three !@#$ing days to do my !@#$ing rp with Allison that was the only reason I unpaused my Gustav character because Tom doesn't have an announcement system for when bug exploits become known to be announced to the game. Great. Good job guys. Hope you're happy. Not to mention the player of Allison probably won't feel they did anything wrong, because there was no public announcement of the bug outside of the forums, friendly mergers is so vaguely defined that we regularly have arguments over what it really means, and there was a !@#$ing button in game that said they could move the duchy, leaving us with a punishment that is only going to leave bitterness and resentment rather than anything useful.
But, as I said, good job. Have a nice day, I will be off of Battlemaster for a while I cool off and wait for Allison to get back so I can continue the rp.
Ignorantia juris non excusat.
There are rules, players are expected to know them. Upon getting elections, players also get reminders to refresh their memory with these rules.