BattleMaster Community
Community => Background => Topic started by: Glaumring the Fox on May 12, 2011, 05:27:25 PM
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Slaves should be apart of the population, that way nations could send in slave raiders to gather up population, slaves could have a benefit but also draw backs from a regular population, plus if your slave population was higher than your regular population there could be slave revolts etc... It would be complicated but would add another resource and or reason for nations to fight eachother or create economic hardships.
When is the resource aspect of BM coming into play anyways? I believe that will make the game ten times more fun and tactical/strategic.
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Hmmm! Slaves! that sounds fun.
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Oh, yeah, good luck with the offensiveness censors.
But in that vein, during Medieval Europe, I believe that slavery was frowned upon, and rare, if at all present.
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Oh, yeah, good luck with the offensiveness censors.
But in that vein, during Medieval Europe, I believe that slavery was frowned upon, and rare, if at all present.
Explicitly banned by the Catholic Church, in fact. Though the trade continued illicitly in a small way throughout the period; and non-Christians held slaves, so that many Christians found loopholes through which to acquire slaves in Italy and Spain. However, slavery was quite uncommon in Catholic Europe; I honestly have no idea what the Byzantine position on slavery was.
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Explicitly banned by the Catholic Church, in fact. Though the trade continued illicitly in a small way throughout the period; and non-Christians held slaves, so that many Christians found loopholes through which to acquire slaves in Italy and Spain. However, slavery was quite uncommon in Catholic Europe; I honestly have no idea what the Byzantine position on slavery was.
Not true. While the Church gradually and over time succeeded in largely banning the enslavement of Christians by other Christians, enslavement of non-Christians remained permissible throughout the middle ages and beyond. The Papal States used to use Muslim slaves in their galleys. Even the ban on enslaving Christians was not consistently applied throughout the period.
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They just called it 'indentured servitude' ;D
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Not true. While the Church gradually and over time succeeded in largely banning the enslavement of Christians by other Christians, enslavement of non-Christians remained permissible throughout the middle ages and beyond. The Papal States used to use Muslim slaves in their galleys. Even the ban on enslaving Christians was not consistently applied throughout the period.
I'd add that even if slavery of Christians by Christians was formally condemned, many many people until XIX centuries were de facto enslaved because of their debts so working in order to repay them (it'd take even decades or the entire lifespan) was normal and accepted. The debtor was a prisoner by all means, he lost all his right belonging to his creditor. Obviously once a debtor started to work it was very hard that he will set free one day because the rules were made to trap him in a spiral of continuos debts towards his master.
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Workhouses were up until quite recently.
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I'd add that even if slavery of Christians by Christians was formally condemned, many many people until XIX centuries were de facto enslaved because of their debts so working in order to repay them (it'd take even decades or the entire lifespan) was normal and accepted. The debtor was a prisoner by all means, he lost all his right belonging to his creditor. Obviously once a debtor started to work it was very hard that he will set free one day because the rules were made to trap him in a spiral of continuos debts towards his master.
Indentured servitude is not slavery. You cannot sell an indentured servant. Both are inhumane, especially by modern standards, but not all inhumanity is identical.
Not true. While the Church gradually and over time succeeded in largely banning the enslavement of Christians by other Christians, enslavement of non-Christians remained permissible throughout the middle ages and beyond. The Papal States used to use Muslim slaves in their galleys. Even the ban on enslaving Christians was not consistently applied throughout the period.
True. Though I'm still pretty confident that slavery was quite uncommon at least in northern Europe. I don't have time at this exact moment to look for more info. I posted quite a bit about this several months ago in another thread:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,260.0.html
A primary source of note:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1171latrsale.html
So yes, enslaving non-Christians was legal (though still, I believe, restricted; note the wording on the Council of London, 1172). But still quite uncommon.
It existed (and, as I said, certainly existed in southern Europe), but doesn't seem to have been a demographically significant number. We wouldn't describe a population as "1% noble, 4% slave, 5% freeman, 90% serf." Identifying the slave population probably would not have been meaningful in most of at least France, England, and the HRE.
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Slavery was rather uncommon in medieval Europe, and really doesn't need a place in Battlemaster. The slavery as we know it (not to be confused with Roman slavery) originates from the 16th and 17th century, when blacks were imported into the West Indies from Africa.
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Well, it's not because slavery would be allowed by the game mechanics, that all realms would do so. A gracious balance of benefits and disadvantages might just create a realistic setting, where a minority of realms maintains a slave population.
Madina, for example :)
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Well, it's not because slavery would be allowed by the game mechanics, that all realms would do so. A gracious balance of benefits and disadvantages might just create a realistic setting, where a minority of realms maintains a slave population.
Madina, for example :)
You really don't like us do you? :(
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You really don't like us do you? :(
Haha, I do like Madina :) I considered hopping over even!
What I meant was that slave trading fits into the whole piracy concept :)
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Haha, I do like Madina :) I considered hopping over even!
What I meant was that slave trading fits into the whole piracy concept :)
Feel free! We could use the nobles! ;)
Take offence at that language... We're privateers! :P
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Nah, I'd rather stay in Fissoa on Dwilight :)
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i was reading some fiction on william de hauteville. i think it says saracens captured in the Sicily were hauled off as slaves for the Byzantium empire
mind you... it was saying the Byzantine general trying to put down the lombard revolt went around massacring and razing towns to encourage others to surrender.
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I forgot the name of it exactly may have been indentured servants(but I think that is more towards people colonize America), but wasn't there a slave like system in medieval times that was similar to India's class system? I think it only applied to farmers though where if your parents were farmers then you were forced to by law to also be one. No one owned you, you earned money, and you could do whatever you want so long as you also farmed.
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I forgot the name of it exactly may have been indentured servants(but I think that is more towards people colonize America), but wasn't there a slave like system in medieval times that was similar to India's class system? I think it only applied to farmers though where if your parents were farmers then you were forced to by law to also be one. No one owned you, you earned money, and you could do whatever you want so long as you also farmed.
You're thinking of serfdom, which is quite different than slavery and also the indian caste system.
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You're thinking of serfdom, which is quite different than slavery and also the indian caste system.
O right serfdom, can't believe forgot that name after all that civ playing. Well yeah it is different, but there are clear connections. You are born into your caste and you are born into serfdom. If you fled serfdom you were hunted down, just like if you fled slavery.
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Yes, but serfdom meant, in a nutshell, that you couldn't change your job and you couldn't move to the next door village. You could still have your own house and family, and you were free most hours of the day. Slavery, on the other hand, meant that you had no personal possessions and no control over your own time, you were under orders 24hrs a day.
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mind you... it was saying the Byzantine general trying to put down the lombard revolt went around massacring and razing towns to encourage others to surrender.
That happened way more than you'd like to think.
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oh no doubt. happens everywhere in the world.
i'm thinking italy at the period would serve a rather interesting basis for titles and hierarchy. there's no such thing as realm really, there weren't even kings (though many wanted to be one).
according to the novel, anyone can call themselves this that or other title.. but only 3 people can officially bestow/confirm it. pope, western emperor (holy roman), eastern emperor (byzantine).. and the norman dude and his brothers (principle characters of the book) were all basically mercenaries who then carve out their own bit of land.
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They did, in history, ally with the Pope against the Holy Roman Emperor. That legitimised their ownership of the land.
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The catholic church shunned the slavery of christians by christians. Or at least catholics by catholics, or something to that effect. I seem to remember reading that there was still slavery of/amongst the norse and slavic people during that time period, but I'm not all too sure about that, and to what extent it happened.
Slavery could indeed bring an interesting dimension to the game, though.
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There is no slavery in BattleMaster because it really doesn't matter what exactly the peasants are. We don't deal with that kind of low-level details in the game. If you like, you can for flavor call a quarter of your population "slaves". The game mechanics for slaves and peasants are really identical, on the level BM simulates the world.
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There is no slavery in BattleMaster because it really doesn't matter what exactly the peasants are. We don't deal with that kind of low-level details in the game. If you like, you can for flavor call a quarter of your population "slaves". The game mechanics for slaves and peasants are really identical, on the level BM simulates the world.
That works too, I guess. Does give RP venues I hadn't considered.