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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on August 12, 2012, 07:31:52 PM

Title: Atheist character
Post by: BattleMaster Server on August 12, 2012, 07:31:52 PM
Summary:Atheist character
Violation:Prohibition against atheist characters
World:Far East
Complainer:G. Potter (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=24358)
About:Perrin (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=30227)

Full Complaint Text:


   I know this isn't technically a violation of the inalienable rights or social contract but I know that one of the rules is that characters aren't allowed to be atheist and I wasn't sure how else to report it.


   As this is a player who's been around since 2006 he should already know the consequences of having an atheist character and it would be pretty fun if a character denying the existence of the gods was bolted. That's up to you though, obviously.


   The message sent by the character was:


   "Though I have recently come here at the behest of my brother Earl Josh, I find it amusing the stock you place in these gods. When's the last time any of these gods have done anything to help you? If that temple was so important, would not have the god defended it?




Why are we wasting breath over petty ideas formed by nobles with too much time on their hands when there is a war to be fought and won? Because the only way this war is going to be concluded is by man himself and the steel he carries and wields. These gods will not decide nor have anything to do with the war or future wars since they are just ideas."
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: fodder on August 12, 2012, 07:49:14 PM
technically he didn't explicitly say there are no gods at all... he just said those particular ones are !@#$ and deny them as mere ideas....
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Vellos on August 12, 2012, 08:20:12 PM
My understanding (and I invite other Magostrates to disagree if I'm wrong) is that we do not enforce this rule, but rather expect IC enforcement.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 12, 2012, 08:26:02 PM
There's more to this, but aye. In a medieval era simply mentioning the IDEA of atheism was instant execution. That he actually said he takes stock in no gods would be a quick trip to the guillotine.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 12, 2012, 08:45:25 PM
Well my character has already reacted IC and I've posted a reminder OOC - the character in question hasn't responded yet. But I have heard stories of Tom bolting atheist characters in the past and I thought it might be interesting if he were to do it again. It's not a newbie player making a mistake (if it wasn't I'd have just dealt with it IG) so the player must be aware there's a chance his character will be bolted - and an atheist character being bolted would be pretty interesting in terms of the discussion it would cause amongst other characters.

If not then I'll suggest IG that the character be banned by the judge for atheism and executed on site.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Velax on August 12, 2012, 08:56:10 PM
I strongly disagree with this being brought to the Magistrates. I fail to see how this in any way breaks the Social Contract or lessens the fun of the game for others. You didn't even bother to give the player or character a chance to respond in-game once the "Atheism is not allowed" thing was brought up. People are starting to get a bit too trigger happy when it comes to reporting things to the Magistrates.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 12, 2012, 09:00:26 PM
As I said, this doesn't break the social contract - I brought this to the magistrates only because it's not clear who this kind of thing should be brought to. The player of Perrin has been playing since 2006 - he should already know that atheist characters aren't allowed. If he'd been a new player then I wouldn't have brought it out of game. But, as it is, I think it would be fairly fun if tom were to decide to bolt the character - it would probably be good for gameplay.

That being said, I'm also perfectly happy if it's decided that this isn't something which should be taken out of game and which should only be dealt with IG. In which case it can act as a precedent for future situations like this.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 12, 2012, 09:11:16 PM
I think Antoine was correct in bringing this up, if not simply to establish a precedent so that we all know how to deal with the situation as per Tom's rulings. It can't hurt. *shrug*

I for one would like to see things done IC, but a god-bolting would do WONDERS as a catalyst for the current argument regarding religion going on in the very same nation. :P

FUN!
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 12, 2012, 09:19:27 PM
(It's Antonine, not Antoine - I'm not a frenchy :p)
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 12, 2012, 09:24:36 PM
My bad XD
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Indirik on August 12, 2012, 10:43:21 PM
FWIW, I don't thin anyone has ever been bolted for atheism.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: ^ban^ on August 12, 2012, 10:51:40 PM
If anything, this is an SMA issue.

Has FEI become an SMA island while I wasn't watching?
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Fury on August 12, 2012, 10:52:48 PM
For reference: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ/Tom%27s_Position_on_Atheism (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ/Tom%27s_Position_on_Atheism)

It's a position not a rule but one that can invite lightning bolts. Unless the character in question is denying the gods AND directly or indirectly in a position to forbid priests that will then effect the rules of being able to choose your own class, then I don't see a case.

I get that the issue is to highlight this and IG would be amusing for a character to be bolted after he insults the gods, ultimately it would be up to Tom as Magistrates can't bolt and can only lock which IG you can take it as perhaps the character in question was struck silent for 1/2/3 days.

While the letter can read "these gods" it can also mean all gods particularly when used with the general "petty ideas". However, this character does not appear to be in a position of power to forbid anything. So ultimately it would be up to "the gods" to take offence.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 12, 2012, 11:12:36 PM
That's pretty much what I suspected might be said - hopefully Tom's reading this and willing to bolt an atheist then :)
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 12, 2012, 11:14:43 PM
As an Atheist with Pseudo-Pagan leanings I must say I think this "Bolt an Atheist Day!" to be quite entertaining.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Anaris on August 13, 2012, 12:24:15 AM
I believe it's worth noting that the only effect of a lightning bolt is to seriously wound the character.

A lightning storm can kill, but they're rarer.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Geronus on August 13, 2012, 01:37:52 AM
Quote from: Anaris on August 13, 2012, 12:24:15 AM
A lightning storm can kill, but they're rarer.

Whoa, really? I've been playing this game for 4 years now, and I've never even heard of a lightning storm. What do you have to do to attract one of those bad boys?
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 13, 2012, 02:05:46 AM
The only one I've ever heard of is when you had the United Sirion States conquer everything and bring about perpetual peace - the gods don't like peace you see.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Indirik on August 13, 2012, 02:40:39 AM
No, even the great peace didn't cause a lightning storm. The one I remember was during the period where orders messages were restricted. Someone sent a message to a group they could not send orders to and said "This is an order!" Next day, dead character.

Anyway, kind of hard to tell from just one message if the character professes atheism, or if he just thinks the enemies gods are false.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: egamma on August 13, 2012, 03:04:02 AM
This is the only message sent by Perrin in the past 7 days (thanks message search!).

The offending sentence (bolding added by me) is this one:

These gods will not decide nor have anything to do with the war or future wars since they are just ideas.

This is not a profession of atheism, only a statement that the gods of all the religions in Arcaea (at least 3, maybe 4) are false. He did not state that there are no gods.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 13, 2012, 04:21:09 AM
o_O Stating that gods are nothing more than artificial constructs of the mind? Yep, that's Atheism.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Indirik on August 13, 2012, 04:34:17 AM
Depends on which gods. My gods are real. Yours are the ones that are fake.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Draco Tanos on August 13, 2012, 04:46:03 AM
The wording, "they are just ideas", makes it sound like atheism to me as well.  Calling them false?  Sure, that works and some of my characters do so frequently.  But "just ideas" sounds atheistic.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ehndras on August 13, 2012, 05:38:49 AM
He wasn't being selective. This wasn't a my gods vs your gods. His pattern of speech and the words used are explicitly stating gods in general are artificial constructs of the mind. These gods is actually a general statement implying all gods. If he were singling our certain gods, as far as the English language goes, he'd say your gods/my gods. Also, if he were a theist trying to refute the existence of a particular group of gods, he's being awfully strange in the way he expresses it...
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Cren on August 13, 2012, 06:38:05 AM
Perhaps you can ask him IG what he meant by *these*, the pantheon of Gods of all religions or a select few.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Antonine on August 13, 2012, 01:31:58 PM
People did ask IC for him to clarify what he meant but he hasn't said anything since.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: roland.walters@abbott.com on August 13, 2012, 04:27:00 PM
He is probably too busy watching the sky for storm clouds.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Fleugs on August 13, 2012, 07:54:43 PM
Hilarious to see this on the forum as a magistrate case. You'd figure that people would just open a pleasant topic in the historical background section of this forum, but no... let's call the cops!

Nevertheless I think that the notion of atheism in a medieval context is ridiculous and this character should simply be skinned alive IC. Also, Ehndras, the guillotine is not a medieval method of execution.  ;)
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Indirik on August 14, 2012, 01:19:33 AM
IIRC the character is specifically referencing the destruction of a temple. So to me, "these gods" could refer to the gods of the temple that just got burned down.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: egamma on August 14, 2012, 04:32:44 AM
Quote from: Indirik on August 14, 2012, 01:19:33 AM
IIRC the character is specifically referencing the destruction of a temple.

Well, the destruction of the temples of several religions, and the remarks of the priests of several religions.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Indirik on August 14, 2012, 05:27:31 AM
Quote from: egamma on August 14, 2012, 04:32:44 AM
Well, the destruction of the temples of several religions, and the remarks of the priests of several religions.

That's not possible to tell from the text of the complaint.

Even so, I personally am not convinced that this is a clear indicator of the defendant's atheism.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Perth on August 14, 2012, 10:23:12 AM
Doesn't sound like Atheism to me. Sounds to me like he's just saying "Haha, you're temples just got burned down. Looks like your gods are crap! Where are your gods now?"

He says nothing of his own beliefs. Just calls someone else's fake... which is fine. In fact, I encourage that. We need more of it.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Sonya on August 14, 2012, 03:57:15 PM
Hello.

The word like Atheist didn't existed until the 18th century(citation needed  ;D ), so lets forget about this and think in existing fact who were predominant in the medieval times.

First, everyone used to believe in something, spirit of ancestors, holy items, even blood bathed weapons.

Second, the religious faction ruled the most part of the human ideas in all the times in history, even rulers, no one dared to go against the Priest on any culture, you can challenge any religious people now, because with the technology you have communication, and with communication you have information. In the past, nothing of that existed, you believe what your priest told your parents to tell you.

Third, there were always some one who challenged the believes of everyone, by different ways, because they always believe in something they thought was greater than god self.

Four, which was the special method to deal with these kind of people? you never heard that something from the heavens fell upon them right?,   they were specially, humorously, simply, burned, alive, in front, of everyone else, to see the power of the CHURCH!


So in resume:

Some one who doesn't believe in (X) is NOT atheist, is a Blasphemer, and blasphemer should be executed at once! or (for more conservative) banished from the realm.

If some one wanted to rise an even higher power, they need to create a new religion, get followers, protest, kick out ruler, and put in motion a new order, of course, you need religion to control the peasants.


That's all....for now... i say "NO to the GM intervention" "YES to the IC resolution" too bad we rulers cant just burn nobles.....is sad....




Peace!
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Ross on August 16, 2012, 05:41:31 AM
I share the idea it should be dealt IC.

While he didn't clearly stated he refused the existence of all Gods, he did attack the legitimacy of the gods, brought in question their powers and acted in a very disrespectful manner about them. Like Sonya mentioned, i think it's fair to consider this as Blasphemy and if it was directed towards a main or well-seen religion within the realm, you can consider this as a serious offence and deal with it as a major crime against the realm, it's purely heresy.  Since he's noble i guess he can have the chance to retract, even more if it's his first offence.  And If "these" Gods were outsider Gods for the character, i guess he just got more enemies and it should be seen as very reckless (i have that vision of Achilles cutting the head of Apollo statue) But, even if it's still an enemy Gods targeted, people should see him as cursed or mad, he should at least be warned even in that case, this will bring no good to his realm if he angers the gods. If he persists i would ban him.
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: egamma on August 16, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
Question about religion moved here: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3028.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3028.0.html)
Title: Re: Atheist character
Post by: Fury on August 17, 2012, 10:06:07 AM
And with no Magistrate thinking this is a case and no discussion opened in the backroom, this thread is now locked.