BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Gustav Kuriga on November 17, 2012, 10:36:25 PM
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Just wanted to make an umbrella thread for anything that would better be put here rather than underneath the Sanguis Astroism thread.
For my tidbit, I would just like to say that Gustav Kuriga just gave Llewellyn Cryfdwr one heck of a verbal smackdown for using who his father was to persuade others to accept his point of view.
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\o/ Thanks to Kabrinskia, Astrum became the biggest realm BM has ever seen - according to the records that is(if you exclude the first days of BM. I heard someone telling me EC was divided between Sirion and Perdan once).
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Would anyone like to see the transcript of what Gustav Kuriga told Llewellyn Cryfdwr?
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I would. Another character of mine (in Riombara, Beluaterra) also got very confused when it was stated that someone had "Family Experience". He wondered if such person had had and raised several children, or something.
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Letter from Gustav Kuriga (1 hour, 58 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Golden refoundation" (17 recipients)
You truly believe that, Llewellyn Cryfdwr? I think that you have forgotten that Kabrinskia was never a democracy or republic in the first place, so whatever problems we found ourselves in had nothing to do with such ideals. In fact, it was for the opposite reason we found ourselves in our current position. Perhaps your youthful brashness combined with an arrogance brought about by the accomplishments of your father clouds your mind, leaving you deluded into thinking that because your father was such an honored and respected man, we should automatically think that you are his equal. You are wrong in that part, and I will not allow you to tarnish Blessed Deverka Cryfdwr's memory by dragging his name through the mud behind you in an attempt to sway those who should know better the with the reputation that his name carries.
Gustav Kuriga
Knight of Knyazes
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Kinda a shame that there's a separate message group for all this. Astrum looks kinda empty right now.
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Rawr. Honestly not much going on.
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Not out in the open, there isn't. But then again, that's always been the way it is among the theocracies.
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It'll be interesting to see who Allison leaves the realm to, she did say that she was against the idea of a democracy/republic even though so far that seems that the majority desire. With Samos's proposal, he was hoping to steer himself into the position of Governor-General, but he doesn't have as much say and renown as other figures in the discussion.
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The new realm should be a new theocracy. They can do whatever kind of elections they want, but the base government style should be theocracy. If not, then it's going to make a LOT of people very unhappy. Of course, so far as I know, none of this information has been propagated IC beyond their semi-private message group.
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Making the realm anything other than a Theocracy would be dumb.
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Making the realm a theocracy would be boring.
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Making the realm a theocracy would be boring.
A Kabrinskiana republic? Fun guaranteed!
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Pfft, screw another Theocracy. Boring.
The whole reason people are getting bored and leaving Dwilight is precisely because of all the cookie-cutter SA Theocracies. Change it up, make things interesting, or the whole damn server is eventually going to die. Hell, the only reasons issues like Asylon and Aurvandil EXIST is because of the annoying SA Theocracies hogging power and making things extremely boring with their massive northern power-bloc.
C'mon folks, have a little fun! Its an RP game after all. We're not here to win, we're here to enjoy ourselves. The day I forge a successful empire is the day I conspire OOC with people to wreck everything I've built because where's the fun in monopolizing power in an RP game? I'd have my character assassinated dramatically for !!FUN!! factor and the sake of RP, heh.
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It would really go against RP to create anything other than a Theocracy. It can be called a Theocracy and run like a republic or like a tyranny. Or even like Iashalur and they run it like a Monarchy.
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Pfft, screw another Theocracy. Boring.
The whole reason people are getting bored and leaving Dwilight is precisely because of all the cookie-cutter SA Theocracies. Change it up, make things interesting, or the whole damn server is eventually going to die. Hell, the only reasons issues like Asylon and Aurvandil EXIST is because of the annoying SA Theocracies hogging power and making things extremely boring with their massive northern power-bloc.
C'mon folks, have a little fun! Its an RP game after all. We're not here to win, we're here to enjoy ourselves. The day I forge a successful empire is the day I conspire OOC with people to wreck everything I've built because where's the fun in monopolizing power in an RP game? I'd have my character assassinated dramatically for !!FUN!! factor and the sake of RP, heh.
A theocratic republic in Golden Farrow sure would be interesting.
But there's plenty of non-astrocracies on Dwilight. People are free to go to any of them: Asylon, 'Moot, Aurvandil, Fissoa, Lurias...
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You can't expect people to enjoy your way of having fun :p. If your way is better, people will surely change things.
SA wasn't created in a day. It took years of work and I doubt people would destroy it just so that some people can have fun. If you don't like SA, you should work against it like Asylon and Aurvandil.
Also, for some people, winning is 'fun'.
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If you don't like SA, you shouldn't work against for it like Asylon and Aurvandil.
Fixed that for you.
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Yeah, for now.
Asylon is a joke right now and only exists because the SA hasn't bothered to swat them out of existence yet, probably because its the only interesting RP going on in the North right now. (No offense - being very blunt about it) Unless they befriend Astrum, stop being at odds with Terran over crap that happened between two former leaders who were quite honestly both in the wrong, or assimilate part of old Kabrinskia, which won't happen and if they try will just warrant an SA religious smackdown, they're practically a non-entity. Its sad to say but the only interesting thing going on in Asylon, that the public sees, mostly comes from Glaumrings crazy politicking, which I am very thankful for and encourage - piss me off as he might.
Aurvandil is doomed. No amount of Mendicant's politicking will stop the fact that half the world is adamantly determined to annihilate every trace of Chevalier culture, Aurvandil, and Mendicant from Dwilight for good. That's not going to stop - ever. Why? Because Aurvandil, rather than play intelligently, waved sticks around and poked a hornet's nest one too many times. Their isolationist manner made them unapproachable, Mendicant's politicking made him difficult or impossible to trust, the Chevalier culture is frankly f*'ing annoying (sorry, had to be said!), and they simply made far too many enemies to survive. Aurvandil was GREAT, they were my favorite nation in Dwilight and I had high hopes for them but their bad choices led them down this path, and now I have to strike the greatest opponent to SA from my plans of global chaos for the sake of epic RP. If Mendicant pulls his head from his behind perhaps some fun can still be had, because right now its just down to watching the clock tick away as Aurvandil's time reaches its end. Then the Falks, since they might as well be one nation. I'm trying my damn best to ensure no Theocracy rises in Aurvandil once its been annihilated because I will be sorely disappointed to have an military and counter-SA powerhouse replaced with a sad excuse for a boring theocracy in the south. If Mendicant changes his strategy or someone comes up with a truly interesting proposal for Aurvandil, or they somehow manage to pull something out of their asses, I see Dwilight getting very, very boring soon enough.
Terran is half-Astroist and anything going against them in the slightest manner gets far too many grumbles for my taste. All our Astroists worry about "Displeasing the SA" and want to be as buddy-buddy with them as possible. Boring! People don't seem to play for the long-term RP, only for the short-term benefits of having a powerful friend. I'm in this to play for years, so I have very, very different plans and schemes in my mind. I want to see this continent ERUPT in interesting RP opportunities, and everyone being "friends" isn't how you do it. We need conflict! Alura is dedicated to bringing peace and prosperity to all but I as a player have RP'd for over a decade and know damn well that the current Dwilight set-up is stagnant and anti-thesis to the healthy expansion of an interesting system. We need some chaos, damn it :P
D'hara is busy with the Lurians, Aurvandil, and other potential threats.
The Lurias are busy fighting each other. Bravo, keep doing that, you're the one chaotic element in Dwilight right now so we love you, keep doing what you do best.
Barca is a complete wreck and only exists because of the 'Moot bending over and taking the brunt of Aurvandil aggression as well as their former(Current?) pact with the Zuma that made the entire continent want to purge Barca and burn it to the ground. But hey, kudos to keeping it interesting and being clever, I respect that. Not really sure what the hell is going on, haven't seen or heard anything from Barca in MONTHS so the only thing keeping me from thinking they're all dead are the occasional messages in the 'Moot from Barca's ruler. Seriously, where the hell are all the other Barcans? What have you guys been doing all this time? At least come bother Alura and ask for aid, or trade, or to help take back land, or just a novelty message for the hell of it so I know there's still a single Human heartbeat somewhere on that side of the continent. :P
The SA, unless those entities within it who want conflict get their way (which won't happen because everyone is too comfortable with their wealth and power to give a damn about quality RP opportunities, it seems), is just going to keep growing as a power-bloc unless I'm back to wanting to quit Dwilight all over again because its a complete and utter snooze-fest. Then again, last time I got pissed at Hireshmont and wanted to quit BM because of all the Astroist bs, I decided to take his place. >_>
I'm all up for Terran having powerful allies, yes, but someone seriously needs to do something about this massive northern non-entity with the SA stamp on its crest, because unless you folks start going at each other at some point, you're just sitting there doing absolute jack-!@#$.
I want to see global politics when Aurvandil is finally dead and buried, which is unfortunate because I really liked their Rp style, despite them acting like elitist douches, which is effectively why everyone decided to gang up on them in the first place. If only they had been a little less... Hostile? Self-righteous? Overly-confident? Downright annoying? They'd have been much more interesting to play with. It would have been much more interesting to see Terran, D'hara, Aurvandil, Barca, and Asylon work together, assimilate some Lurians, and take on the SA. :P But alas... Such is life. Exiled back to boringness and a distinct lack of RP.
At least Provincia popped up, gave me and Rynn a reason to speed up our wedding plans. Oh, thanks for trying to assassinate Rynn at our wedding night, and then trying to assassinate D'hara's Judge at Paisly as well, class-act right there, really helped with the RP ideas!
And Kabrinskia! Ah, how I loved Kabrinskia! You shattered my dreams! It was Kabrinskia that ruined my "Hey, I can join Aurvandil or Terran... I prefer Aurvandil because I'm a glory-seeking elitist douche but I want to make a character that won't be involved in combat so I can learn the ropes, so I'll make a random female noblewoman who's not interested in politics at all because she's counter-culture and doesn't follow anything the rest of the nation likes!" *Kabrinskia declares war* FUUUUUUU! *people actually ***LIKE*** Alura's counter-culture ideas, fiery spirit, and ultra-blunt method of telling people how it is while making everything overly poetic.* From there I got pissed at all the SA-lovers and was going to quit BM for good, but someone convinced me to give it another try and that's when I had the idea to get Vellos kicked out and take his place. At first I was going to just take Perth's place eventually since he was very inactive and supposedly retiring sometime soon, but that changed with Erasmus being a dumbass and lo and behold, I got my chance to become Ruler and took it. I was planning on just being Lord of Vassar for a long, long time but things obviously didn't go as planned. As usual, its the conflict and the betrayal that made things interesting and worth playing. See the pattern begin to emerge yet?
Cheers folks! This ridiculously forward, no-holds-barred announcement/rant was brought to you by Alura Aurea, Chief Magistrate of the Terran Republic, one individual who OOC doesn't give a flaming damn about short-term benefits in light of the overall RP quality of the continent, nor does she IC care about being the most wealthy or powerful noble or realm in all the lands but in making things more interesting. We're here to ROLEPLAY, damn it, so lets roleplay!
((On that topic, if you have any RP ideas or want to discuss one, even if we're rivals/enemies/strangers, let me know and we'll arrange something, I'm always up for new plots, twists, and fun stuff! I'm willing to do most of the writing work as I'm a writer and write all day for fun anyway, so cheers!))
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If you don't like the dominance of Astroist theocrcacies, then do something about it. (I mean besides complaining on the forums.) The game is what you make of it. Personally, I will keep on doing what makes sense for my character to do. That means continuing to spread the influence of SA and the Stars as far and wide as possible. Because that's what Brance would do.
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If you don't like the dominance of Astroist theocrcacies, then do something about it. (I mean besides complaining on the forums.) The game is what you make of it. Personally, I will keep on doing what makes sense for my character to do. That means continuing to spread the influence of SA and the Stars as far and wide as possible. Because that's what Brance would do.
I honestly don't see SA as that imposing, really. Only the outright stupid get themselves whacked.
Sure, you can't ignore them, but that's life. Nothing forces you to assimilate yourself, however.
I would quite hope that we don't see a theocracy replace Aurvandil, though. Mind you, if defeated, Aurvandil is likely to just fold into Falkirk...
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How are you guys so sure you can defeat Aurvandil? Isnt' Terran/D'Hara/Barca the only realms capable of marching that far south?
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Kabrinskia could. And I hear that Astrum wasn't doing too bad in Paisly. doubt they could make it all the way to Candiels, though. From an OOC perspective, I doubt that Aurvandil is in any serious trouble from the theocracies. Maybe if the moot and the Lurias teamed up with GDoF then they could do some serious damage.
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Haha all your spy networks and plants and y'all ain't even got a clue.
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massive rant
You go on and on about how their needs to be "RP" and people aren't "RPing" because of SA. I think that's literally the farthest thing from the truth. SA is one of the most powerful RP engines I have ever seen in my 5 years in BM. Just because you don't LIKE SA doesn't mean that people aren't having fun, or that "RP" isn't happening. Making your character take whatever crazy action results in the most chaos possible is not "Roleplaying" its "Funmaking." Role playing is playing your character how they would, mostly, rationally act. The fact of the matter is that a lot of characters don't have anything to gain from trying to bring down SA, quite the opposite. That's roleplay. I'm not sure why you're so extremely anti-SA OOC, and this is coming from someone who's character is certainly not pro-SA in any way. OOCly, SA is awesome. It's the best religion BM has ever had. It's how religion in the game should be--taken seriously.
There are various other things you said about Terran, Vellos, Perth, etc. that I'm not sure how you got them. But whatevs.
The whole reason people are getting bored and leaving Dwilight
People are leaving Dwilight in significant numbers? If so, I seriously doubt its at a rate any different than the game as a whole. Which means it is hardly a result of SA.
because of all the cookie-cutter SA Theocracies.
Yeah there are sooooo many.... like, 4 out of 17 realms. There are 3 Republics in comparison and 8 Monarchys. The continent is hardly dominated by theocracies. It's a pretty nice, even mix really. Which is why things are really interesting, fun, and dynamic right now. And why there are lots of wars and conflicts going on.
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Yeah there are sooooo many.... like, 4 out of 17 realms. There are 3 Republics in comparison and 8 Monarchys. The continent is hardly dominated by theocracies. It's a pretty nice, even mix really. Which is why things are really interesting, fun, and dynamic right now. And why there are lots of wars and conflicts going on.
3 Republics and 8 Monarchies, each with its very own rich background and various customs, as opposed to 4 sprawling realms of the same government type, the same religion, that operate in lock-step with each other. That's not to mention the many secular realms that have a high percentage of followers.
The rest of your post is absolutely littered with excellent points, but I disagree with this one. Four is a lot when they are all dedicated to the same religion.
Edit: And don't forget, it used to be five until very recently.
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Samos's reasoning behind a democracy/republic IG were primarily due to concerns over past perceived abuses of power and stagnation.
OOCly besides the war with Terran and Asylon, Kabrinskia has been an utter snorefest. We would go a week with maybe one or two messages to the realm. Army orders were even rarer. I just sat in my regions, improving them and selling food when the call for food for Golden Farrow or Farrowfield went up. I want something unique, and while still IC, that develops out of this situation. Rather then another centralized astrocracy.
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Samos's reasoning behind a democracy/republic IG were primarily due to concerns over past perceived abuses of power and stagnation.
OOCly besides the war with Terran and Asylon, Kabrinskia has been an utter snorefest. We would go a week with maybe one or two messages to the realm. Army orders were even rarer. I just sat in my regions, improving them and selling food when the call for food for Golden Farrow or Farrowfield went up. I want something unique, and while still IC, that develops out of this situation. Rather then another centralized astrocracy.
You were a snorefest because of Allison, frankly. Allison's ambitions used to be very destabilizing, oriented towards shaking things up– they aren't anymore. She did her best to make sure nobody in SA got a war going, or, if they did, to make sure it got cut as short as possible. If Allison had got on board against Aurvandil, methinks Kabrinskia would have been quite a bit more fun.
Terran is half-Astroist and anything going against them in the slightest manner gets far too many grumbles for my taste. All our Astroists worry about "Displeasing the SA" and want to be as buddy-buddy with them as possible. Boring! People don't seem to play for the long-term RP, only for the short-term benefits of having a powerful friend. I'm in this to play for years, so I have very, very different plans and schemes in my mind. I want to see this continent ERUPT in interesting RP opportunities, and everyone being "friends" isn't how you do it. We need conflict! Alura is dedicated to bringing peace and prosperity to all but I as a player have RP'd for over a decade and know damn well that the current Dwilight set-up is stagnant and anti-thesis to the healthy expansion of an interesting system. We need some chaos, damn it :P
lol, Terran is not half-Astroist.
Frankly, anti-Astroism is not the force of chaos on Dwilight. Astroism is. Think about it– in Star Wars, which is a more destabilizing influence: Luke being a light jedi, or Luke joining with Vader to rule the galaxy as father and son? Neither, really. Both are extremely destabilizing.
Similarly, right now, Astroism has few clear expansion opportunities. It won't plausibly engage in a religious war against Terran or the Lurias– both are friendly, nor D'hara, also friendly. Asylon maybe– but it can't do much from there. Astroism has found that, after having expanded so much, all its neighbors are... friendly. So they form this big buffer zone between the Astroist behemoth and the Rest of Dwilight (Barca, Aurvandi et. all, South Forland).
But imagine if all those Friendly Buffer States (Terran, D'hara, northern Luria) became unfriendly and anti-Astroist: it'll just be a stalemate. Those powers won't be able to break Astroism. Dwilight will become two giant blocs locked in eternal struggle... and eternal stalemate and stasis.
If you want dynamism, hop on the gang-bang bandwagon. For all that folks criticize massive gang-bang wars, they DO lead to whole power blocs being eliminated, and new power blocs being formed. And that is what Dwilight needs– major restructuring. The question is: how? The least-resistance path is obvious: convert to Astroism, kill the heathens.
When all of Dwilight is Astroist, Astroism will no longer be a defining political feature. Entirely new blocs will form– and who knows what they'll be! Will trade ties between Morek and D'Hara become a dominant political feature, contesting with Astrumite or neo-Kabrinskian desire for maritime supremacy? Will the Moot experience an internal struggle over centralization vs. federalism? Will there be (another) Morekian civil war?
But for such things to occur, there needs to be resolution. And the surest path to resolution is to convert to Astroism, let one side win this conflict, then start a new conflict. But if all the south radicalizes into anti-Astroism– what will they accomplish? Nothing. Deadlock. And as long as the south is the anti-Astroist bastion, the Astroist north will remain hegemonic and stable.
You say we're not thinking long term: but many of us are, IC and OOC. The long-term is that every continent on BM has lots of local flavor religions. And they are BORING AS HELL. Local culture is need, but the religion game SUCKS for local religions. I've been involved in the leadership or founding of like half a dozen such religions– they're really not that fun until they become international. The long-term is that radicalization against Astroism is the path to stalemate, stagnation, and deadlock. Paradoxically, players trying to create chaos will generate order: chaos and dynamism is generated by players trying to accomplish their goals, achieve objectives, defeat rivals. Change happens because somebody manages to overcome and defeat resistance. So if your OOC goal is change (and it doesn't have to be– you can play for stagnation if you want) and a unique Dwilight– then Astroism is what you should be supporting. Because, frankly, it is what is distinct and dynamic on Dwilight. Without it, we are seeing the Maroccidental War slip into stagnation and food-management-master again. But with Astroism, it's an epic land war. See? Dynamism=Astroism.
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Pfft, screw another Theocracy. Boring.
The whole reason people are getting bored and leaving Dwilight is precisely because of all the cookie-cutter SA Theocracies. Change it up, make things interesting, or the whole damn server is eventually going to die. Hell, the only reasons issues like Asylon and Aurvandil EXIST is because of the annoying SA Theocracies hogging power and making things extremely boring with their massive northern power-bloc.
C'mon folks, have a little fun! Its an RP game after all. We're not here to win, we're here to enjoy ourselves. The day I forge a successful empire is the day I conspire OOC with people to wreck everything I've built because where's the fun in monopolizing power in an RP game? I'd have my character assassinated dramatically for !!FUN!! factor and the sake of RP, heh.
IMO rp-ing your character in a way that is IC-ly not consistent for OOC reasons is not fun at all. What makes conflict and schemes interesting is that the characters involved are genuinely working against each other to the best of their ability. A war simply for the sake of "fun" becomes little more than an rp-less button game as characters have no motivation to get properly involved. Similarly an OOC arranged empire collapse turns what could be a variety of fun schemes into a single pre-arranged event that is over quickly and most players didn't get a chance to become involved in. Not to mention the fact that it's often painfully obvious that what's happening was arranged OOC so it's horribly immersion breaking.
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Kabrinskia could. And I hear that Astrum wasn't doing too bad in Paisly. doubt they could make it all the way to Candiels, though. From an OOC perspective, I doubt that Aurvandil is in any serious trouble from the theocracies. Maybe if the moot and the Lurias teamed up with GDoF then they could do some serious damage.
At least all the war declarations is forcing Aurvandil to knock down their taxes back down to sane levels one could expect from normal realms. 'cause seriously, it's abnormal that they could be so strong with what would otherwise be considered a poor realm.
It levels the playing field considerably, even if half of these realms can't send any military aid.
They could, though, also send financial assistance.
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At least all the war declarations is forcing Aurvandil to knock down their taxes back down to sane levels one could expect from normal realms. 'cause seriously, it's abnormal that they could be so strong with what would otherwise be considered a poor realm.
It levels the playing field considerably, even if half of these realms can't send any military aid.
They could, though, also send financial assistance.
Indeed, I'd say, long run, provided the war declarations remain, that the Moot has a pretty good leg up.
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Asylon is not anti-Astroist. We still have many members who follow the faith and we have many temples. We were against Kabrinskia only because of the constant scheming. We have not persecuted, outlawed etc any SA . We are not anti-SA we were anti-Kabrinskia.
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Asylon is not anti-Astroist. We still have many members who follow the faith and we have many temples. We were against Kabrinskia only because of the constant scheming. We have not persecuted, outlawed etc any SA . We are not anti-SA we were anti-Kabrinskia.
Glaumring (IC) could've fooled me there a few times <.< Asylon is still the chief proponent of anti-SA sentiment in the north. Actually, the only anti-SA proponent in the north, as vague and mostly non-threatening as it may be.
Meh, all this is a moot point. We'll see what happens after Allison raises a ruckus (as usual), hopefully after I leave the country on Tuesday so I can actually be online when the !@#$ hits the fan.
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Yes, SA dominates the religious and thus political scene in Dwilight as many of you said, because of its unity and player strength, not numbers. That's precisely the issue. Without more people like Allison, and the folks I know within SA who agree with me, I just see a ightly-knit power bloc. Sorry, folks. Its an effective tactic but a boring one. It was boring when I was in SA and it seems boring from the outside. It was boring in every strategy-war game I've ever played. Its boring on the other BM continents. Perhaps I am wrong, but I can only speak from what I have witnessed from my point of view.
I can't really complain at, I *DID* join Terran to get away from war after all...
Its when I hear people say "Join the SA, its the only hway!" that I stop and think, "would I enjoy being in the SA? Again? Not really. Would expanding SA influence make things more fun for me? Not really. Would more conflict be interesting? Now there's something worth RPing!" Granted I really like the way people like Sergio, ruler of Astrum plays, the leader of Iashalur is also high on my list and the ruler of Morek as well. Still, there are other nations, religions, and government types for a reason. A "Lets all join hands and !@#$ over everyone who's trying to be different" is NOT a recipe for success. I quite like the Cult of Bloodmoon, they make things interesting. I like people like Mendicant who cause strife and bring people together to face them, you HAVE to admit they have something good going and have a ridiculously-tight military. I like Allison's manner of inciting interesting RP opportunities, though she lost her touch for a while there. I'm doubt her current plan is public knowledge yet so I'll keep my mouth shut, but things in the SA are about to get flipped upside-down.
And yes, since when is Terran not a pretty even split between Astroists and non-Astroists? Its been quoted again, and again, and again, and was brought up by Astroists in the Senate as reasoning for better relations with the Astrocracies before they joined us against Aurvandil. By all means, lets be friends with the SA. I don't mind at all, as I said I quite like a number of Astroists. But who are you kidding? Joining SA is NOT the "only route" in Dwilight. There are always branching paths. Different ideas. New paths. New religions. New players. New nations. New blocs to be made. I for one do not want Terran assimilated into the SA. I don't want to see an SA majority. I don't want to hop on the SA bandwagon and take the easy route. I play to have fun, and I play to win, and I see whoring ourselves to the SA as the cheap but effective way to gain power. If I wanted cheap and effective I'd go back to kicking everyone's ass in standard strategy-war games. If this was any other server I'd not mind, but Dwilight - to me - should be where all the epic RP fun happens by nature.
As such, I like the SA and don't mind working with them but I don't wish to see an SA, or anti-SA, or any sort of faction-domination.
The simple fact is that while the noni-SA factions fight amongst themselves, the SA doesn't. In the end that means the SA gets to sweep up the remnants and take what they want because everyone else will be too broke, damaged, and tired to do much of anything. :P To really have continent-wide fun, we need some strife in the SA.
The only person with a good idea right now is Allison. Lets see what happens.
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Ehnadras, people on the forums dont need to know every nuance of IC feelings , many here cannot seperate forum and IG
Asylon is not anti-Astroist we are very much like Terran and D'Hara and have a multitude of religions in our land. I was once a Consul in SA and ruled a small theocracy. We have many Astroists in Asylon. We are and always have been anti-Kabrinskian aggression and we have bad relations with Astrum. We have good relations with Morek . There is no reason to dispute everything I say.
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Yes, SA dominates the religious and thus political scene in Dwilight as many of you said, because of its unity and player strength, not numbers. That's precisely the issue. Without more people like Allison, and the folks I know within SA who agree with me, I just see a ightly-knit power bloc. Sorry, folks. Its an effective tactic but a boring one. It was boring when I was in SA and it seems boring from the outside. It was boring in every strategy-war game I've ever played. Its boring on the other BM continents. Perhaps I am wrong, but I can only speak from what I have witnessed from my point of view.
I can't really complain at, I *DID* join Terran to get away from war after all...
Its when I hear people say "Join the SA, its the only hway!" that I stop and think, "would I enjoy being in the SA? Again? Not really. Would expanding SA influence make things more fun for me? Not really. Would more conflict be interesting? Now there's something worth RPing!" Granted I really like the way people like Sergio, ruler of Astrum plays, the leader of Iashalur is also high on my list and the ruler of Morek as well. Still, there are other nations, religions, and government types for a reason. A "Lets all join hands and !@#$ over everyone who's trying to be different" is NOT a recipe for success. I quite like the Cult of Bloodmoon, they make things interesting. I like people like Mendicant who cause strife and bring people together to face them, you HAVE to admit they have something good going and have a ridiculously-tight military. I like Allison's manner of inciting interesting RP opportunities, though she lost her touch for a while there. I'm doubt her current plan is public knowledge yet so I'll keep my mouth shut, but things in the SA are about to get flipped upside-down.
And yes, since when is Terran not a pretty even split between Astroists and non-Astroists? Its been quoted again, and again, and again, and was brought up by Astroists in the Senate as reasoning for better relations with the Astrocracies before they joined us against Aurvandil. By all means, lets be friends with the SA. I don't mind at all, as I said I quite like a number of Astroists. But who are you kidding? Joining SA is NOT the "only route" in Dwilight. There are always branching paths. Different ideas. New paths. New religions. New players. New nations. New blocs to be made. I for one do not want Terran assimilated into the SA. I don't want to see an SA majority. I don't want to hop on the SA bandwagon and take the easy route. I play to have fun, and I play to win, and I see whoring ourselves to the SA as the cheap but effective way to gain power. If I wanted cheap and effective I'd go back to kicking everyone's ass in standard strategy-war games. If this was any other server I'd not mind, but Dwilight - to me - should be where all the epic RP fun happens by nature.
As such, I like the SA and don't mind working with them but I don't wish to see an SA, or anti-SA, or any sort of faction-domination.
The simple fact is that while the noni-SA factions fight amongst themselves, the SA doesn't. In the end that means the SA gets to sweep up the remnants and take what they want because everyone else will be too broke, damaged, and tired to do much of anything. :P To really have continent-wide fun, we need some strife in the SA.
The only person with a good idea right now is Allison. Lets see what happens.
Methinks you didn't understand anything I said.
Cult of the Bloodmoon for example– does not create conflict. Creates stability. As long as there are crazy fringe groups like the Cult, SA will always be united. Chenier has it right– SA is a huge behemoth and won't get mobilized unless you really piss'em off. But as long as people keep throwing rocks at SA (Asylon, Aurvandil... Averoth, Thulsoma, the Torenists, Summerdale), yes, SA will stay united. Just stop giving them a common enemy.
PS- you were never in SA that I recall or, if so, only for, like, a week as an aspirant member.
PPS- I will reiterate that I think it's extremely bad for game RP when people plan out OOC plotlines out of game and discuss them with other involved parties. It's bad for the game, excludes lots of players, and is basically cheating. Yes, I'm looking at you, IRC-junkies.
PPPS- Terran has, I think, maybe 3 or 4 Astroists and like 10 or 15 Triunists. Not evenly split. Astroism is a constantly threatened minority in Terran that has to actively defend itself to stay alive.
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Would expanding SA influence make things more fun for me? Not really.
It does for me. It does for me because it's hard though, so I'm glad we have opponents. I hope it's fun for you too! But many people in SA are having fun, and nothing forces them to stay in if they aren't.
Propagandizing on the forum about how SA is breaking the game for you isn't going to convince me to change the way my character is acting. Now, that would be boring. OOC is boring. You want RP? RP happens IC. And if, with your RP and your character, you manage to defeat SA, then I'll be really happy about it, because it will have been fun.
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And yes, since when is Terran not a pretty even split between Astroists and non-Astroists?
Uh, since the founding of Terran? There are 2 Astroists in Terran that I know about and that even bother speaking up about it from time to time. If there are others, they are not even vocal or public about it.
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Yes, I'm looking at you, IRC-junkies.
What?! WHAT!
Zaki hides under his bed.
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What?! WHAT!
Zaki hides under his bed.
"Shhhh... Its okay, Zaki..." *pats*
Don't blame them! They don't know any better!
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That logic makes absolutely no sense to me.
To pacify a species, you would eliminate all of its predators? Let it grow out of control until it depletes its prey and begins to cannibalize its own kind? Eventually their ecosystems fall apart and *MAYBE* give the chance for a lesser species to rise in their place, though in the process of eliminating its predators you happened to destroy the most successful examples of competitive vitality that existed at its side? Perhaps my reasoning works a little differently but that's not a very efficient progression of events.
You'd figure the time-tested idea of allowing species to propagate within a dynamic ecosystem would function better than trying to cull a given species' competition. That will just lead it to stagnate and become pacified. I don't want a pacified SA, a boring SA, or a dead SA, I want an SA as interesting as it is now but more dynamic in terms of continental politics. A more active SA. Everyone just sees a wall of SA banners, there is no clear distinction between Astroist nations beside Kabrinskia, and who are we kidding, that's entirely because of Allison. Why? Because SA is a sleeping bear. I'd like to see a threatened SA that opens its jaws and fights back against its enemies, that feels threatened and retaliates, not an SA that slowly amasses power and slumbers.
The two options are SA fights others, which has thankfully come true thanks to Aurvandil, or it fights itself. Once Aurvandil is gone, what will SA do? Fight the Lurian Empire? Lay on its haunches, lick its wounds, and wait?
I'm just trying to figure out what's going to happen when the SA can no longer band against Aurvandil because there's nothing left to band against. Its already proven that the SA can come together to fight someone, now I want to see what else it can do. If the only way you can do that is by poking it then by the Gods will I encourage people to poke the sleeping bear, hehe.
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That logic makes absolutely no sense to me.
To pacify a species, you would eliminate all of its predators? Let it grow out of control until it depletes its prey and begins to cannibalize its own kind? Eventually their ecosystems fall apart and *MAYBE* give the chance for a lesser species to rise in their place, though in the process of eliminating its predators you happened to destroy the most successful examples of competitive vitality that existed at its side? Perhaps my reasoning works a little differently but that's not a very efficient progression of events.
You'd figure the time-tested idea of allowing species to propagate within a dynamic ecosystem would function better than trying to cull a given species' competition. That will just lead it to stagnate and become pacified. I don't want a pacified SA, a boring SA, or a dead SA, I want an SA as interesting as it is now but more dynamic in terms of continental politics. A more active SA. Everyone just sees a wall of SA banners, there is no clear distinction between Astroist nations beside Kabrinskia, and who are we kidding, that's entirely because of Allison. Why? Because SA is a sleeping bear. I'd like to see a threatened SA that opens its jaws and fights back against its enemies, that feels threatened and retaliates, not an SA that slowly amasses power and slumbers.
The two options are SA fights others, which has thankfully come true thanks to Aurvandil, or it fights itself. Once Aurvandil is gone, what will SA do? Fight the Lurian Empire? Lay on its haunches, lick its wounds, and wait?
I'm just trying to figure out what's going to happen when the SA can no longer band against Aurvandil because there's nothing left to band against. Its already proven that the SA can come together to fight someone, now I want to see what else it can do. If the only way you can do that is by poking it then by the Gods will I encourage people to poke the sleeping bear, hehe.
If you want to see SA have more complicated politics, then join SA. I'm serious. The only thing keeping SA from eating itself is that there are still radically anti-SA people out there: in Asylon, in the Moot, in the Lurias, in the Orvandeux.
I do believe predators should wipe out the other species. I don't want everyone to survive and organisms to prosper. I want one to kill all the rest, then starve, and have a totally new order rise in its place. IMHO, it's the same problem on Atamara– the Cagilan bloc would break apart if it was the only thing there was. But as long as non-Cagilans are strategically meaningful, they have strong enough cohesion to stick together. So the Cagilans need to win (I say this as a long time, though on-and-off again, player in Eston).
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That logic makes absolutely no sense to me.
To pacify a species, you would eliminate all of its predators? Let it grow out of control until it depletes its prey and begins to cannibalize its own kind? Eventually their ecosystems fall apart and *MAYBE* give the chance for a lesser species to rise in their place, though in the process of eliminating its predators you happened to destroy the most successful examples of competitive vitality that existed at its side? Perhaps my reasoning works a little differently but that's not a very efficient progression of events.
You'd figure the time-tested idea of allowing species to propagate within a dynamic ecosystem would function better than trying to cull a given species' competition. That will just lead it to stagnate and become pacified. I don't want a pacified SA, a boring SA, or a dead SA, I want an SA as interesting as it is now but more dynamic in terms of continental politics. A more active SA. Everyone just sees a wall of SA banners, there is no clear distinction between Astroist nations beside Kabrinskia, and who are we kidding, that's entirely because of Allison. Why? Because SA is a sleeping bear. I'd like to see a threatened SA that opens its jaws and fights back against its enemies, that feels threatened and retaliates, not an SA that slowly amasses power and slumbers.
The two options are SA fights others, which has thankfully come true thanks to Aurvandil, or it fights itself. Once Aurvandil is gone, what will SA do? Fight the Lurian Empire? Lay on its haunches, lick its wounds, and wait?
I'm just trying to figure out what's going to happen when the SA can no longer band against Aurvandil because there's nothing left to band against. Its already proven that the SA can come together to fight someone, now I want to see what else it can do. If the only way you can do that is by poking it then by the Gods will I encourage people to poke the sleeping bear, hehe.
To get rid of a species, getting rid of its FOOD sure could work. And this would be a better analogy. There are no predators to SA, just prey.
In agricultural pest management, this is done. If you get too much of a pest for some crop, then it's usually a good idea to change crops for a few years to starve the larvae out.
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To get rid of a species, getting rid of its FOOD sure could work. And this would be a better analogy. There are no predators to SA, just prey.
In agricultural pest management, this is done. If you get too much of a pest for some crop, then it's usually a good idea to change crops for a few years to starve the larvae out.
Thank you for a better analogy than I gave.
We need to kill the SA-food (anti-SA radicals) and let SA start to eat itself.
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Not seeing SA so much as a parasite and more as a predator who I'd like to see become more... Vicious. ;)
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Not seeing SA so much as a parasite and more as a predator who I'd like to see become more... Vicious. ;)
You could make it more vicious. By joining and being a war-hawk.
Now, obviously that doesn't really fit Alura's IC position. But the point is that you can't OOC complain about things being stagnant or boring when the political system you are striving for is the very thing that's driving the stagnation.
Of course, the idea of Dwilight as a stagnant continent is utterly laughable.
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Not a stagnant continent, just nowhere near its full potential. Nowhere near.
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Meh. Fine. I'll give it a try.
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You can also not be an astroist and work to limit astroism's growth without actively going out against them and offering yourself as a sacrifice to fuel their unity.
IMO, SA isn't a problem for Dwilight at all right now. It's not as if it's killing more interesting faiths, either. Despite being an elder of one of the secondary faiths, I doubt any religion on Dwilight is as dynamic as SA is. The problem with the North is a purely secular matter. It's not about SA per say, it's about realms surrounding themselves with federated allies on all sides, and then a big buffer of unaligned friendly states. SA has nothing to do with that.
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Everyone just sees a wall of SA banners, there is no clear distinction between Astroist nations beside Kabrinskia, and who are we kidding, that's entirely because of Allison.
Honestly, I am very glad this is the impression that SA gives to those outside of it. Because nothing could be farther from the truth. But so long as our enemies believe, that, then it's cool.
And really, it sounds like you've really swallowed Allison's propaganda. Hook, line and sinker.
Its already proven that the SA can come together to fight someone, now I want to see what else it can do. If the only way you can do that is by poking it then by the Gods will I encourage people to poke the sleeping bear, hehe.
Please do. Its been too long since someone has stood up and put on the red shirt.
If you want to see SA have more complicated politics, then join SA. I'm serious. The only thing keeping SA from eating itself is that there are still radically anti-SA people out there: in Asylon, in the Moot, in the Lurias, in the Orvandeux.
This. So true. So true...
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The greatest threat to pragmatic anti-astroists are paranoid anti-astroists, and not astroists themselves...
I'm pretty sure the North was pretty close to some kind of collapse when Aurvandil came up. Had Aurvandil not betrayed the 'moot and forced them to seek help, I'm quite confident things would look quite differently up north right now.
SA is BIG. Sure, there's Allison, and she has a lot of cronies. But getting all of these people together is something nobody can achieve alone. And it's much easier for an outside party to provoke SA into doing something than for someone on the inside to do the same.
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Oh dear lord, that would be the single most amazing thing... If allison created an ANTI SA and challenged SA with about the same strength... Ugh... Sounds so funnnnnn!!!!
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Oh dear lord, that would be the single most amazing thing... If allison created an ANTI SA and challenged SA with about the same strength... Ugh... Sounds so funnnnnn!!!!
Not really...
I tend to consider people overestimate Allison these days... She isn't a nobody, but she isn't all-powerful either.
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I don't expect it to happen either... More people dislike her than like her... But if she had some sort of other... followers... (cough that southern saxon realm cough) what if... she... *dies*
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You're all wrong, of course.
The greatest threat to SA is my free time.
Because when I have enough of it, I will be coding up religious schisms.
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You're all wrong, of course.
The greatest threat to SA is my free time.
Because when I have enough of it, I will be coding up religious schisms.
haha nice. It will be great when its made.
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To get rid of a species, getting rid of its FOOD sure could work. And this would be a better analogy. There are no predators to SA, just prey.
In agricultural pest management, this is done. If you get too much of a pest for some crop, then it's usually a good idea to change crops for a few years to starve the larvae out.
You mean to say that the lurias couldn't defeat Morek and corsanctum? i think they could if they ever stopped fighting one another and actually went to war with someone and a competent general. I think Aurvandil shouldn't be counted down and out either. There is a long way between the two but still i think 1v1 no astroist could survive us.
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Considering Morek won a 3 vs 1 war that caught them when they were way down south fighting aquilegia... I'd say Morek is perfectly capable of a one on one fight. Morek is a haven of military minded players.
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I'm pretty sure the North was pretty close to some kind of collapse when Aurvandil came up. Had Aurvandil not betrayed the 'moot and forced them to seek help, I'm quite confident things would look quite differently up north right now.
What you're saying is that in order for the North to change, the rest of the continent would have to stagnate. This is flawed thinking for a couple of reasons.
First of all other islands have seen continent-wide stagnation with no natural recovery. The East Continent was so peaceful at one point that GMs had to coerce it's rulers into wars via threats of lightning bolts. The Colonies as far as I can tell is also in a sorry state, with only 3 realms holding any real power with no non-contrived conflict forseeable between them. So eliminating all destabilizing elements doesn't necessarily bring around a natural revival afterwards... instead it creates situations where leaders have to make up contrived reasons for war, sometimes under duress. It essentially poses the same problem that North has now, just on an island wide scale.
Secondly you (or someone else) previously mentioned that only 20% of Dwilight's characters are in the Aristocracies. So what you're calling for, is for 80% of the characters to stop their action so that the other 20% can get on with theirs. This doesn't make sense from a practical stand point, because it would be harder to organise the 80% than it would be to organise the 20%.
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Amen to what he said.
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Amen to what he said.
actually, it's more like 40% are SA-just sayin.
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Thank you.
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What you're saying is that in order for the North to change, the rest of the continent would have to stagnate. This is flawed thinking for a couple of reasons.
First of all other islands have seen continent-wide stagnation with no natural recovery. The East Continent was so peaceful at one point that GMs had to coerce it's rulers into wars via threats of lightning bolts. The Colonies as far as I can tell is also in a sorry state, with only 3 realms holding any real power with no non-contrived conflict forseeable between them. So eliminating all destabilizing elements doesn't necessarily bring around a natural revival afterwards... instead it creates situations where leaders have to make up contrived reasons for war, sometimes under duress. It essentially poses the same problem that North has now, just on an island wide scale.
Secondly you (or someone else) previously mentioned that only 20% of Dwilight's characters are in the Aristocracies. So what you're calling for, is for 80% of the characters to stop their action so that the other 20% can get on with theirs. This doesn't make sense from a practical stand point, because it would be harder to organise the 80% than it would be to organise the 20%.
You're right in principle. I remember the long peace on EC. It wasn't fun.
But that won't happen in Astroism. The reason is simple. EC had nothing to work for. The big realms were as big as they could get. They didn't need new conflicts.
Religiously connected realms need those conflicts. Do you really think there are no systematic differences in Occidental and Oriental Astroism? Then why is there an entire guild specially for Occidental Astroism? Do you really think that, left to their own devices, Astroist realms aren't going to compete over control of the church and dominance within it? And do you really think that won't lead to bloodshed?
If so, you're naive. Inter-church violence has only been prevented (insofar as it has been prevented– which is not as completely as some folks seem to think) thus far by by rigorous efforts by people who want to keep SA united. Why do they want to keep it united?
Aurvandil.
Oh, and Aurvandil.
There's also Aurvandil.
Then there was Falkirk, but still Aurvandil.
There are other reasons of course but, frankly, I know at least 2 current SA elders (not counting Hireshmont) are actively "playing nice" with people they'd love to be feuding with because they don't believe they can afford to leave Aurvandil unchecked. No doubt other folks see boogiemen other places.
The point is– SA dominance is not like the long peace of EC, because the long peace of EC didn't leave anything to fight about. It was a political war with a political victory, and it was total. A total political victory of SA still leaves the entire political squabble about who controls the religion unsettled. And, as Tim mentioned, schisms are going to be added eventually. SA will split not long after that.
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You mean to say that the lurias couldn't defeat Morek and corsanctum? i think they could if they ever stopped fighting one another and actually went to war with someone and a competent general. I think Aurvandil shouldn't be counted down and out either. There is a long way between the two but still i think 1v1 no astroist could survive us.
Hell no! They couldn't defeat a starved-out D'Hara with a surprise attack, how on earth could they ever defeat Corsanctum, let alone Morek?
What you're saying is that in order for the North to change, the rest of the continent would have to stagnate. This is flawed thinking for a couple of reasons.
No. What I am saying is that for the North to change, the NORTH needs to stagnate. There are many blocs and un-aligned realms south of the theocracies, they can keep each other busy without offering themselves as targets for the northerners.
You're all wrong, of course.
The greatest threat to SA is my free time.
Because when I have enough of it, I will be coding up religious schisms.
So SA vs SA, in other words? Which is what others have said, the greatest threat to SA is SA itself.
And I wouldn't put much faith in any Allison-led schism. She has too many enemies within the church and outside of it, everyone would probably be all too happy to gank on her. Allison's main strength is all the moderates that serve as a buffer around her, that don't really care or even like her and wouldn't join in on her crazy projects, but would come to her defense if she were persecuted by an outside faction. If she breaks her ties with all of these people, she becomes vulnerable.
From where I stand, it wouldn't be in Allison's best interests to split up the church.
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Allison is rapidly losing her support within the church, and she knows it. The current elders are not willing to allow her to run rampant. She has lost power. And she's not likely to get it back. That's why it *is* in her best interests to separate from the church. By starting a new church, she can be the one in control. And that's what it's all about.
But she can't do that up north. She has given the prophet her oath that she won't start a new church, and he's not likely to release her from that. If she starts a new church in any of the theocracies it will soon get crushed. That's why she's moving south.
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The Prophet did just release me from my oaths.
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Well, color me surprised.
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Well, color me surprised.
Haha owned
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Well played, Mathurin. Clever phrasing. Gotta love how different people see different interpretations in the same, short sentence.
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Well played, Mathurin. Clever phrasing. Gotta love how different people see different interpretations in the same, short sentence.
pastepastepaste
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The Prophet did just release me from my oaths.
If by calling you an apostate you think that's a release, you've been eating a bit too much Bloodmoon fruit.
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If by calling you an apostate you think that's a release, you've been eating a bit too much Bloodmoon fruit.
"The act of your leaving Sanguis Astroism (...) would release you from the oaths you have made to the Church."
"-But, Lady Allison, are you not an apostate?
-The Prophet himself said that I was released from any oath I made! He said I was free to go!
-Indeed the Prophet said so, it must be right."
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You're free to go: as an apostate without any religious clout or authority, having broken all ties never to return. By doing so, you have implicitly already violated your oaths as a Luminary and a priestess– maybe some other oath is released, but you're an oath-breaker one way or another.
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So basically, she is being "banned" from SA
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So basically, she is being "banned" from SA
If she leaves, the Elders will be viewing it as a ban. Naturally we can't actually ban a priest on our own.
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Hence the quotes.
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Allison is rapidly losing her support within the church, and she knows it. The current elders are not willing to allow her to run rampant. She has lost power. And she's not likely to get it back. That's why it *is* in her best interests to separate from the church. By starting a new church, she can be the one in control. And that's what it's all about.
But she can't do that up north. She has given the prophet her oath that she won't start a new church, and he's not likely to release her from that. If she starts a new church in any of the theocracies it will soon get crushed. That's why she's moving south.
Allison is clearly loved in the South. ;)
I don't think there's anywhere Allison could successfully pull this off successfully. She could try in the Lurias, but even then...
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"The act of your leaving Sanguis Astroism (...) would release you from the oaths you have made to the Church."
"-But, Lady Allison, are you not an apostate?
-The Prophet himself said that I was released from any oath I made! He said I was free to go!
-Indeed the Prophet said so, it must be right."
I don't think the oath-breaking/release from oaths thing will be anywhere near as significant as people are making it out to be if a schism actually occurs.
Sure, I agree that is is significant insomuch as Allison's personal pride will not allow her to schism while the oath is valid. However I find it very hard to imagine that people are going to think its ok or sanctioned for Allison to leave and found a new Church just because she didn't break a specific oath. Apostasy and schism are going to be condemned either way; if Constantine left SA and founded his own religion are people going to say it's alright just because he hasn't sworn any oath not to do so?
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They might say it's OK, based on who is doing it. I can't imagine Constantine doing it, but he's one of the few who I feel could get away with it.
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I don't think the oath-breaking/release from oaths thing will be anywhere near as significant as people are making it out to be if a schism actually occurs.
Sure, I agree that is is significant insomuch as Allison's personal pride will not allow her to schism while the oath is valid. However I find it very hard to imagine that people are going to think its ok or sanctioned for Allison to leave and found a new Church just because she didn't break a specific oath. Apostasy and schism are going to be condemned either way; if Constantine left SA and founded his own religion are people going to say it's alright just because he hasn't sworn any oath not to do so?
Indeed. Allison's influence is waning. Even if you code new options for her, it won't help. Being her own boss won't be of any help, because her greatest strength is being able to hide behind the SA moderates that would never follow her into a schism. The non-SA world is hostile to her, and the SA world is marginalizing her more and more.
She did a few mistakes too many. Had she been an instigator for a crusade against Aurvandil, she probably could have helped prevent this influence erosion some... But she took the wrong side.
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Back before the Crusade debates, Allison tried to get an offensive going. The church didn't want to, because we had to debate the crusade matter first. Once that was settled, and we decided to not do the crusade, the theocracies decided to go on their own. Then Allison went against that, because it wasn't an official crusade. She sounded very pro-Aurvandil while doing it.
Allison' biggest mistake, I think, is in opposing anything that is not her idea, or which she is not leading.
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Back before the Crusade debates, Allison tried to get an offensive going. The church didn't want to, because we had to debate the crusade matter first. Once that was settled, and we decided to not do the crusade, the theocracies decided to go on their own. Then Allison went against that, because it wasn't an official crusade. She sounded very pro-Aurvandil while doing it.
Allison' biggest mistake, I think, is in opposing anything that is not her idea, or which she is not leading.
Indeed. She should have took advantage of the situation to her own ends, instead of trying to counter it.
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Back before the Crusade debates, Allison tried to get an offensive going. The church didn't want to, because we had to debate the crusade matter first. Once that was settled, and we decided to not do the crusade, the theocracies decided to go on their own. Then Allison went against that, because it wasn't an official crusade. She sounded very pro-Aurvandil while doing it.
Allison' biggest mistake, I think, is in opposing anything that is not her idea, or which she is not leading.
+1
Her downfall was her prideful belief that she could and should be a controlling power, rather than an influencing power. Much the same way Hireshmont's power in the Moot has waned.
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So this is the end for Allison? :o
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She isn't dead yet...
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Not dead, but she's alienate many of her old allies. Even Gustav would spit at her name in distaste.
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;)
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8)
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Allison should join Luria or Fissoa, get away from 'em stargazers 'n find a new target.
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She should go somewhere and found a new church. That way she can be a Prophetess.
and then SA can really declare a Crusade!
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It might be more fun to let her found her new church (in Aurvandil of all places? Seriously? Talk about giving her opponents loads of free ammunition, and marginalizing yourself at the same time...) and then ignore it. I mean, we don't really *have* to do anything about her. And her choice of location pretty much guarantees that the only way she could expand would be by Aurvandilian conquest, and Mendicant's good graces. I can't help but think that this is *not* one of Allison's best choices.
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I'm curious how it will go. Allison has a certain way with things. That is, as soon as Nobles can leave Sanguis Astroism :P
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I think its awesome and I see Allison doing some cool stuff. I hope it will embolden many more to found new faiths and kingdoms. Dwilight only gains from more diversity.
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I hope it will embolden many more to found new faiths and kingdoms. Dwilight only gains from more diversity.
+1
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I am obviously missing something, so what is it you are all talking about?
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Allison was banned from kabrinskia and seceded there only to to astrum and then got kicked out of astrum and went to aurvandil. now she's just chilling.
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If she leaves and fails, it will only make SA more monolithic without adding any diversity whatsoever.
I do not believe this will bring more diversity and that Dwilight would necessarily gain from such a move.
When Guillaume seceded from Enweil to form Fheuv'n, he figured it would allow him to develop a new rich culture that would otherwise be restrained in mainstream Enweil. The result, however, was the marginalization/ghettoïsation of the radical elements and stagnation of Enweil.
I tend to suspect something similar would happen if Allison and her cronies leave to found a new religion.
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So basically don't even try... ::)
Free men never stop fighting!!!
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Allison was banned from kabrinskia and seceded there only to to astrum
More correctly, Allison swapped the allegiance of her duchy (which comprised the entire realm of Kabrinskia) from Kabrinskia to Astrum. This is not a secession. Secession involves the formation of a new, independent realm. Leaving one realm and joining an exiting realm is just a change of allegiance.
and then got kicked out of astrum and went to aurvandil. now she's just chilling.
Allison was not kicked out of Astrum. She was offered an estate in Eidulb, and the opportunity to stay in Astrum as long as she wanted. She declined. She left because the nobles of the former Kabrinskia did not want her in their new realm. (Or at least did not want her to have any position of power in the new realm in any way.)
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She left because the nobles of the former Kabrinskia did not want her in their new realm. (Or at least did not want her to have any position of power in the new realm in any way.)
How did this happen? Were peopled just pissed off because she changed allegiance or what?
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How did this happen? Were peopled just pissed off because she changed allegiance or what?
Probably... I mean people probably didn't want to leave Kabrinskia.
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How did this happen? Were peopled just pissed off because she changed allegiance or what?
Basically yes, she started to threaten everyone if we didn't protested Brom out of office and then when this was actually happening, she simply changed the duchy and killed the realm just so she wouldn't lose her duchess status.
So most of the nobles in the realm said she had to step down as duchess and we would recreate our realm and she could stay, but with out any power.
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So basically don't even try... ::)
Free men never stop fighting!!!
There are ways to achieve such objectives. IMO, that's not a viable way.
Allison is quickly losing all power and influence. She is trying to hold onto it too much, forcing her to do drastic actions that accelerate her decline. From experience, my characters that couldn't accept a fall fell much lower than those who accepted to roll with things.
This is the end of Allison. I'm just annoyed that she wants to give Aurvandil a boost now, though.
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Fun means different things to different people, I flip over a table draw my swords and start spinning like a mad man killing everyone in the room... Only afterwards do I stop and see who died. Then I jump through a window with a bottle of whiskey, tuck and roll onto the street and grab a horse running by, pull the guy riding it off it and punch his face, now im on a horse with two swords and im smashing through the town jail saving my friends, its awesome, I toss them swords and we fight our way out of the building, its chaos, so many dudes are dying, we make it out of the town. We're at the club house, some chicks are there, whoaaa we get laid, its an awesome time...
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We will see what several thousand gold and a handful of courtiers/priests/diplomats can do for Aurvandil. The gold should help replenish their army and we should be able to maintain their regions for a high tax rate once again.
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Fun means different things to different people, I flip over a table draw my swords and start spinning like a mad man killing everyone in the room... Only afterwards do I stop and see who died. Then I jump through a window with a bottle of whiskey, tuck and roll onto the street and grab a horse running by, pull the guy riding it off it and punch his face, now im on a horse with two swords and im smashing through the town jail saving my friends, its awesome, I toss them swords and we fight our way out of the building, its chaos, so many dudes are dying, we make it out of the town. We're at the club house, some chicks are there, whoaaa we get laid, its an awesome time...
I call plagiarism. That's one of Stabbity's classic roleplays.
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We will see what several thousand gold and a handful of courtiers/priests/diplomats can do for Aurvandil.
I can see it now... Allison auto da fe's all of Aurvandil's lords and defects with all of their land to Terran, effectively destroying Aurvandil.
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I can see it now... Allison auto da fe's all of Aurvandil's lords and defects with all of their land to Terran, effectively destroying Aurvandil.
...and Terran by the same stroke.
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... The Astroist plot all along!
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We will see what several thousand gold and a handful of courtiers/priests/diplomats can do for Aurvandil. The gold should help replenish their army and we should be able to maintain their regions for a high tax rate once again.
Why would you want to do this...?
People complain about CE on EC...
Pax Aurvandilia would be just GREAT for Dwilight, right? I can already imagine it. Aurvandil can take on the rest of the continent and it's a pretty even battle, despite the fact that it has a sole !@#$ty city. And you want to give them tons of gold, more nobles...
Aurvandil's strength is unnatural. And you want to give it the means to its aspirations. I feel like deleting my Dwilight character already.
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Oh come on Chenier...
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He mad
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I'm not worried about it.
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It's not that Aurvandil has unnatural strength... it's that everyone else is so bad.
I was surprised to hear that tax rates of ~20 percent were considered abnormal, since that's what I've been running my region at for probably half a year now and it's never dropped below perfect stats, even during a war and without me holding court or anything. Apparently Aurvandil is the only realm where other people have the good sense to do this. So Terran, D'Hara, etc. are essentially all playing with handicap mode on since they aren't utilizing their regions to full potential.
If everyone else increased their tax rates to intelligent levels, they could probably double or even triple their strength. Instead they set their tax rates at like 6% for no reason.
Also remember that the Aurvandil army currently marching around Terran uncontested was only 20,000 CS strong to begin with... so really it was relatively small compared to the armies other realms field. I think the army that attacked the Paisly realm a month or so ago was about 35,000 CS in comparison. If Terran garrisoned Paisland (I have no idea why they didn't) they could've easily held it off.
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Why would you want to do this...?
People complain about CE on EC...
Pax Aurvandilia would be just GREAT for Dwilight, right? I can already imagine it. Aurvandil can take on the rest of the continent and it's a pretty even battle, despite the fact that it has a sole !@#$ty city. And you want to give them tons of gold, more nobles...
Aurvandil's strength is unnatural. And you want to give it the means to its aspirations. I feel like deleting my Dwilight character already.
Oh get of it.
Aurvandi's strength is unnatural? Indeed, it is entirely artificial, man made. A good warrior knows his limitations, a great warrior finds a way around them. Our strength is derived from efficient government and efficient tax rates and gold distribution, something you are perfectly capable of choosing to do in D'Hara but don't, which makes you quite the abnormal one when you willingly forgo a proper realm administration for a shambles if you really think there is anything so strange about Aurvandil, as you keep touting. Candiels isn't a !@#$ city, sure it's not in league with the ridiculous wealth of say Port Raviel or Port Nebel, but it is by no means !@#$. Again, I outright state you're so used to expecting literally thousands of gold in tax surplus to piss away doing nothing that you don't even know the value of gold or how to use it.
I do like how you've already given up on the war before its really begun, you've declared an Aurvandilan victory before I can even see the path towards it, but then I'm only the High Sovereign.
And it's Pax Aurvandalica (Going of what you said you may as well get used to it, as it's apparently going to stick around) and it would be beneficial for Dwilight, Cagilan Empire chokes the politics and wars of Atamara, Aurvandil will do the opposite. Cagilan Empire forms a huge federated power bloc (Kind of like the Moot, but actually relevant on continental diplomacy) Aurvandil will do the opposite. I could go on, but if Aurvandil is ever in a position of power, that'll mean more realms, more wars, more diversity and more nobles being empowered to do something.
You honestly seem to think you've got it hard, for some reason.
It's not that Aurvandil has unnatural strength... it's that everyone else is so bad.
I was surprised to hear that tax rates of ~20 percent were considered abnormal, since that's what I've been running my region at for probably half a year now and it's never dropped below perfect stats, even during a war and without me holding court or anything. Apparently Aurvandil is the only realm where other people have the good sense to do this. So Terran, D'Hara, etc. are essentially all playing with handicap mode on since they aren't utilizing their regions to full potential.
If everyone else increased their tax rates to intelligent levels, they could probably double or even triple their strength. Instead they set their tax rates at like 6% for no reason.
Also remember that the Aurvandil army currently marching around Terran uncontested was only 20,000 CS strong to begin with... so really it was relatively small compared to the armies other realms field. I think the army that attacked the Paisly realm a month or so ago was about 35,000 CS in comparison. If Terran garrisoned Paisland (I have no idea why they didn't) they could've easily held it off.
Finally, some common sense.
We used to run tax rates of 24% before the estate switchover, then we were forced to drop them to eighteen percent, which upon much experimentation was the highest we could "comfortably" run in our regions without any loss of production/morale/loyalty.
The combined army a month ago was 40,000 Combat Strength, and Aurvandil could only send forth 20,000 Combat Strength this campaign, when our first campaign we lead 35,000, which makes it rather clear that Aurvandil is struggling to maintain any real sort of military power when we've lost nearly half of it, not to mention our second most wealthy region and several others.
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I used to run 25% tax rate in Golden Farrow quite easily. I had to stay in the city or near it most of the time. If I left on long trips I would have to drop the taxes to 22 or 23%.
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Hmm the federated Astroists...
Astrum 47
Corsanctum 13
Libero 11
Morek 43
Iashular 15
=129 nobles
The Moot...
Terran 30
D'Hara 25
Barca 14
= 69 nobles
TOTAL: 198
Aurvandiil 54
ummmm... Yeah the Aurvandiilian threat...
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It's not that Aurvandil has unnatural strength... it's that everyone else is so bad.
Sorry, no.
When literally everyone else on the continent (and pretty much everyone else in the entire game) is playing a particular way, and achieving a particular level of military efficiency, you don't get to come in with a realm formed around a group of OOC friends with absurdly high levels of activity and realm-focused self-sacrifice and claim that everyone else is just doing it wrong.
There was a time when all of BattleMaster played in the way that Aurvandil plays today. I remember it, and I played as both a leader and a regular knight in realms that were like that. Being a leader was wonderful fun, because you got to move around all these other chesspieces and watch as they did your will.
Being a regular knight sucked, hard.
BattleMaster isn't meant to be played like that. It's true that we've moved a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we need to regain some of that realm-as-team ethos, but in today's BattleMaster, Aurvandil just takes it too far.
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Sorry, no.
When literally everyone else on the continent (and pretty much everyone else in the entire game) is playing a particular way, and achieving a particular level of military efficiency, you don't get to come in with a realm formed around a group of OOC friends with absurdly high levels of activity and realm-focused self-sacrifice and claim that everyone else is just doing it wrong.
There was a time when all of BattleMaster played in the way that Aurvandil plays today. I remember it, and I played as both a leader and a regular knight in realms that were like that. Being a leader was wonderful fun, because you got to move around all these other chesspieces and watch as they did your will.
Being a regular knight sucked, hard.
BattleMaster isn't meant to be played like that. It's true that we've moved a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we need to regain some of that realm-as-team ethos, but in today's BattleMaster, Aurvandil just takes it too far.
Good old days :'(
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Sorry, no.
When literally everyone else on the continent (and pretty much everyone else in the entire game) is playing a particular way, and achieving a particular level of military efficiency, you don't get to come in with a realm formed around a group of OOC friends with absurdly high levels of activity and realm-focused self-sacrifice and claim that everyone else is just doing it wrong.
There was a time when all of BattleMaster played in the way that Aurvandil plays today. I remember it, and I played as both a leader and a regular knight in realms that were like that. Being a leader was wonderful fun, because you got to move around all these other chesspieces and watch as they did your will.
Being a regular knight sucked, hard.
BattleMaster isn't meant to be played like that. It's true that we've moved a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we need to regain some of that realm-as-team ethos, but in today's BattleMaster, Aurvandil just takes it too far.
I don't see how you, as a developer, a representative of this game mind you, can go and say that and entire group of players is playing WRONG because they have high levels of activity and are play efficiently. We are playing how WE want to play. we aren't breaking SMA. Also, I have been a regular knight, in fact I'm little more than that now and Aurvandil is STILL a fun place to play. If anyone else doesn't think so they can move to a different realm where they find themselves more comfortable.
Anaris I like you. I just don't like that you said because I'm not playing how you might run your realm I'm playing wrong, and not only wrong but not having any fun while doing it. I think you should have more poise than that as a representative of this awesome game, volunteer or not.
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Players in Aurvandil choose their own level of involvement, and it's their level of involvement that decides their place in the realm.
If you say Aurvandil takes it's to far, well do you ever see any nobles of Aurvandil complaining? No. And they're at liberty to leave or try to change things if they want. You disagree with how our realm runs, fair enough, but then Aurvandil runs differently exactly to be different. Madina was an omnishambles of failure, laziness and inefficiency and I specifically set out to make a realm of the opposite side of the spectrum, it gives players an opportunity to play in a realm specifically designed to be decisive, efficient and well run. Too many realms are one in the same, exact styles of playing, governance, roleplay and Aurvandil distinguishes itself and gives players an opportunity for something different.
These days, when you can easily have four, five characters depending on family fame, medals, donation etc it provides a nice extra option for your playing experience.
Battlemaster is a player driven game, it's meant to be played by the players in the way they consider most fun. It specifically tries to encourage diversity in playing styles, and we embody that trying not to be another realm in the hoi polloi of obscure genericism. We're not "doing it wrong", and hell, every continent needs a strong realm willing to pick a fight to keep things interesting and to unbalance the distribution of power.
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Sorry, no.
When literally everyone else on the continent (and pretty much everyone else in the entire game) is playing a particular way, and achieving a particular level of military efficiency, you don't get to come in with a realm formed around a group of OOC friends with absurdly high levels of activity and realm-focused self-sacrifice and claim that everyone else is just doing it wrong.
There was a time when all of BattleMaster played in the way that Aurvandil plays today. I remember it, and I played as both a leader and a regular knight in realms that were like that. Being a leader was wonderful fun, because you got to move around all these other chesspieces and watch as they did your will.
Being a regular knight sucked, hard.
BattleMaster isn't meant to be played like that. It's true that we've moved a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we need to regain some of that realm-as-team ethos, but in today's BattleMaster, Aurvandil just takes it too far.
If tax rates aren't meant to be optimised, why bother having them? You might as well just set all taxes at the same rate so as not to put uncompetitive players at a disadvantage.
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I don't see how you, as a developer, a representative of this game mind you, can go and say that and entire group of players is playing WRONG because they have high levels of activity and are play efficiently. We are playing how WE want to play. we aren't breaking SMA. Also, I have been a regular knight, in fact I'm little more than that now and Aurvandil is STILL a fun place to play. If anyone else doesn't think so they can move to a different realm where they find themselves more comfortable.
Anaris I like you. I just don't like that you said because I'm not playing how you might run your realm I'm playing wrong, and not only wrong but not having any fun while doing it. I think you should have more poise than that as a representative of this awesome game, volunteer or not.
Well, I was a bit harsh in my wording because Kwanstein said that Aurvandil is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it wrong. I think you can understand how that rubs me somewhat the wrong way.
I understand that the people playing in Aurvandil enjoy playing that way, don't misunderstand me. But from everything I've seen, a bit part of the reason many of them enjoy it is simply because it means they win. A lot. Furthermore, as I said, the core of Aurvandil was built around a group of people who came together in BattleMaster for the specific reason that they enjoy playing in the old style, hyper-maximizing their military efficiency and focusing on winning wars, rather than the politics, intrigue, and interpersonal and diplomatic relations that the entire rest of the continent has been focused on since it opened four years ago.
If it weren't so all-pervading within the realm—if Aurvandil weren't using every trick in the book to maximize gold output and funnel it directly into military power—it wouldn't be so bad.
But BattleMaster simply isn't designed to cope with that level of min-maxing. Frankly, I'm not sure it's even possible to balance it to cope with both the way most people in BattleMaster play and the way the players in Aurvandil play. And that's the problem.
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If tax rates aren't meant to be optimised, why bother having them? You might as well just set all taxes at the same rate so as not to put uncompetitive players at a disadvantage.
That's a false dichotomy. The tax rates are, indeed, meant to be adjusted to suit the Lord. But most people don't want them to be right on the ragged edge—where, as you've been told before, they leave your region vulnerable to the slightest shocks, and liable to spiral down into anarchy if you're not very careful. They want to have them high enough to provide a good income, while still leaving a buffer so that if five different realms declare war on you, or you get a nasty priest tanking your loyalty, or a famine leaves your region starving for a week...you still have a chance to repair the stats before they spiral completely out of control.
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Well, I was a bit harsh in my wording because Kwanstein said that Aurvandil is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it wrong. I think you can understand how that rubs me somewhat the wrong way.
I didn't say everyone was doing it right or wrong. That's subjective and I don't really care about that.
What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true. I once witnessed a Duke reduce his tax rate from 9% to 7% for no reason. That kind of playstyle isn't just uncompetitive, it's completely nonsensical.
That's a false dichotomy. The tax rates are, indeed, meant to be adjusted to suit the Lord. But most people don't want them to be right on the ragged edge—where, as you've been told before, they leave your region vulnerable to the slightest shocks, and liable to spiral down into anarchy if you're not very careful. They want to have them high enough to provide a good income, while still leaving a buffer so that if five different realms declare war on you, or you get a nasty priest tanking your loyalty, or a famine leaves your region starving for a week...you still have a chance to repair the stats before they spiral completely out of control.
So if they aren't meant to be on the ragged edge, why have a ragged edge to begin with? If taxes were limited to 15% or under then you wouldn't have a problem of players optimising it.
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What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true.
No. It's not.
Sure, some people play badly. But most people just don't think the entire point of BattleMaster is to maximize your military potential.
I once witnessed a Duke reduce his tax rate from 9% to 7% for no reason. That kind of playstyle isn't just uncompetitive, it's completely nonsensical.
Maybe. Or maybe he had some good game-mechanic reason to do it you just didn't know about.
Or, maybe he had a roleplay reason to do it—like the region had been mistreated for a long time, and he felt sorry for them and wanted to reduce their burden.
BattleMaster isn't just a numbers game, and many people who play it don't care about the numbers at all. They care about the characters.
So if they aren't meant to be on the ragged edge, why have a ragged edge to begin with? If taxes were limited to 15% or under then you wouldn't have a problem of players optimising it.
This question misses the point so badly, it's hard to even know how to answer it.
It's not that no region is ever meant to be on the ragged edge. It's that a whole realm, being there all the time, is not meant to happen. And Aurvandil has been paying the price for that, in part, with the troubles you've been having with the regions since the SA realms declared war on you.
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No. It's not.
Sure, some people play badly. But most people just don't think the entire point of BattleMaster is to maximize your military potential.
But military potential is a gameplay factor in BM, so not maximizing yourself in that regard is objectively poor play. It's not a matter of roleplaying vs. wargaming - those two things don't overlap here, you can do them both - it's a matter of some players arbitrarily setting their tax rates low and then complaining when they're beaten by people who don't.
Maybe. Or maybe he had some good game-mechanic reason to do it you just didn't know about.
Or, maybe he had a roleplay reason to do it—like the region had been mistreated for a long time, and he felt sorry for them and wanted to reduce their burden.
BattleMaster isn't just a numbers game, and many people who play it don't care about the numbers at all. They care about the characters.
Nah I saw the region's stats and they were all perfect. He didn't roleplay a reason either, and in fact this happened in a realm where literally no one except me roleplayed, and he even disliked my character, so he definitely wasn't there for the roleplaying.
This question misses the point so badly, it's hard to even know how to answer it.
It's not that no region is ever meant to be on the ragged edge. It's that a whole realm, being there all the time, is not meant to happen. And Aurvandil has been paying the price for that, in part, with the troubles you've been having with the regions since the SA realms declared war on you.
Why is it not meant to happen though? If it doesn't interfere with the roleplay then it only matter from a gameplay perspective, and from a gameplay perspective it's the optimal way for a realm to function so there's no reason not to do it.
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The issue is that you have assembled a group of people in Aurvandil that play together and have a level of activity that is beyond pretty much every other realm in the game. And it's not a matter of, "Well, why don't you do it too? You must be playing badly." I'm sure that's a very convenient argument for you to make, but the fact is other realms can't do that even if they wanted to, because they'd be slapped with the Inalienable Right on activity so hard their head would spin.
Aurvandil formed with a core group that wanted to reach abnormally high levels of activity, and then obviously attracted more of the same. No other existing realm can do that. And the fact that you did is great for you, I'm sure, but it has a negative effect on the realms around you.
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Aurvandil is running every trick in the book to maximise gold output? I'm sorry, but since when has running high tax rates, making lots of estates and frequently running investments been a trick? Or in any shape or form something to be frowned upon? That is all we are doing, it's not trick and it's nothing shady. I don't appreciate these repeated veiled accusations against the way Aurvandil pays it way, it's just a scathing remark for the sake of spite.
Aurvandil is a militaristic society, with an emphasis solely on duty, service and chivalry. If people want to play in a realm with an emphasis on politics, diplomacy and extended periods of peace, well there are dozens of other realms to choose from. And if Aurvandil wins so much, why have we made absolutely no progress in the war against the Veinsormoot? Why did it take us over a year to defeat Madina? At best we win battles, and that is because we pick our battles and we fight only the battles we know we can win, or otherwise will reach a strategic objective in being routed. Even then, we recently lost a battle against Terran (Due to the delay arrival bug) and we used to consecutively lose battles against Madina. The Aurvandilan military is overhyped by people on this forum. It's good, don't get me wrong, but evidently it's not good enough.
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The issue is that you have assembled a group of people in Aurvandil that play together and have a level of activity that is beyond pretty much every other realm in the game.
Rubbish.
And it's not a matter of, "Well, why don't you do it too? You must be playing badly." I'm sure that's a very convenient argument for you to make, but the fact is other realms can't do that even if they wanted to, because they'd be slapped with the Inalienable Right on activity so hard their head would spin.
That isn't even a valid point, firstly it implies we breach the inalienable rights, which we don't, and then secondly it acts as though other realms are restricted in ways we aren't. Convenience in arguments is irrelevant, the point itself is perfectly valid and is used because it's valid not because it's easy. Aurvandil does something perfectly within the game rules and you act as if it's wrong because you can't do it to the same level? I think they have the colonies for that, where everything is deliberately slower paced for people with less time to be able to do everything.
Aurvandil formed with a core group that wanted to reach abnormally high levels of activity, and then obviously attracted more of the same. No other existing realm can do that. And the fact that you did is great for you, I'm sure, but it has a negative effect on the realms around you.
Rubbish. We're formed by a core group of players who put the effort in to be more active, it was never a want, or demand, or anything close, but a response. A fast paced, high risk war you're heavily invested in tends to motivate people to log on.
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Rubbish.
No, it's quite plainly true to people who have a wide experience of the game.
That isn't even a valid point, firstly it implies we breach the inalienable rights
No, I believe you've misunderstood: He's saying that for any other realm to do it would breach the inalienable rights, because other realms aren't made up entirely of people who want to be that active.
Rubbish. We're formed by a core group of players who put the effort in to be more active, it was never a want, or demand, or anything close, but a response. A fast paced, high risk war you're heavily invested in tends to motivate people to log on.
I think you don't see it for the same reason the fish doesn't notice water and we don't notice the air: it's just natural to you. And it's not that you're wanting it or demanding it of the others—it's that you all share the common desire to be highly active, and the feeling that that is the Right Way To Play, even if you wouldn't put it in those words. Your and Kwanstein's words in this thread make that perfectly clear.
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Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.
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Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.
Honestly? It really is. And a realm that has 70 or 80 or 90 or 100% of its players who log on every single turn has a massive advantage over every other realm.
This isn't Battlefield 1942 or CoD or WoW. I've been in high-ranking guilds and clans in those games and the attitude is completely different. If you were listed for a raid or a match, then you damn well turn up or have a very good excuse why not. It's a bit of culture shock when you come to BattleMaster - it still annoys me now when attacks fail because of people's inactivity - but the fact is this game simply isn't intended to be played that way. A realm that does unbalances things for everyone else.
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Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.
Yes. Yes, it is.
I really hope that you will come to realize the degree to which the attitudes of the players in Aurvandil is very different from that of those in the rest of the game.
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. And a realm that has 70 or 80 or 90 or 100% of its players who log on every single turn has a massive advantage over every other realm.
If this is really the case, then for every other realm, I have just this to say: tough titties for you. Having 90% of your realm's players log in every turn is in no way, shape, or form in violation of the rules, the social contract, the "spirit of the game", or any other such thing. You lose a war because your realm's nobles don't log in and play? Sorry, but I'm not going to shed any tears for you. Just like I didn't shed any tears for Aurvandil when half their regions went rogue because 6 realms declared war on them when they only had 2 courtiers.
BattleMaster is a PvP game. As such it is highly confrontational, and highly dependent on the skill level and effort expended on the parts of the players involved. Maybe not quite so heavily as FPS style games, but it it still counts. If your team can't be bothered to even play, then you *will* lose. And, IMNSHO, you deserve to lose.
Srsly... of all the possible things to complain about.... "They log in and play every turn! That's totally unfair to everyone else!" I can't believe you said that...
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Anaris, you are putting words into my mouth. I never once stated or implied that there was a 'right way to play'. All I have put forth is that not optimising tax rates in a game that rewards you for optimising tax rates is bad play. This is objectively true, to say otherwise is illogical. It's not that I dismiss roleplaying, or that I expect too much effort from players; it's just that I identified a form of gameplay that results in suboptimal gold production and by extension military power.
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If this is really the case, then for every other realm, I have just this to say: tough titties for you. Having 90% of your realm's players log in every turn is in no way, shape, or form in violation of the rules, the social contract, the "spirit of the game", or any other such thing. You lose a war because your realm's nobles don't log in and play? Sorry, but I'm not going to shed any tears for you. Just like I didn't shed any tears for Aurvandil when half their regions went rogue because 6 realms declared war on them when they only had 2 courtiers.
BattleMaster is a PvP game. As such it is highly confrontational, and highly dependent on the skill level and effort expended on the parts of the players involved. Maybe not quite so heavily as FPS style games, but it it still counts. If your team can't be bothered to even play, then you *will* lose. And, IMNSHO, you deserve to lose.
Srsly... of all the possible things to complain about.... "They log in and play every turn! That's totally unfair to everyone else!" I can't believe you said that...
I'm not saying that, and I don't think Velax is saying it either.
What we're saying is that the attitude that if other realms want to have a chance against Aurvandil, they should just man up and get their activity up to what's obviously the most sensible levels is not a reasonable one.
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We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed. None of us ever said that either. It's like complaining that your RCs aren't of equal quality or your walls aren't as high. If having a bunch of active players is the reason everyone hates us well then they aren't reasonable
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We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed.
Right—because of your belief that keeping your tax rates as high as you could possibly keep them, which, as I said, left you vulnerable to the shock of having war declared on you by so many realms at once.
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I didn't say everyone was doing it right or wrong. That's subjective and I don't really care about that.
What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true.
Tell me how you can do something badly, yet your not doing anything wrong. I even glanced at dictionary website and under wrong, a synonym was bad. Also preferably make the example not within BM, so that's it a real world example.
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Do you think if we had met the coalition head on we could've beat them? I sure don't because we were already weakened by then
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I'm not saying that, and I don't think Velax is saying it either.
Yeah, he kinda did:
Honestly? It really is [abnormally high rates of activity]. ... has a massive advantage over every other realm.
... this game simply isn't intended to be played that way. A realm that does unbalances things for everyone else.
What he's saying is that logging in and playing every turn is: "abnormal", "gives a"massive advantage", that the game "isn't intended to be played that way", and that is "unbalances things".
Sorry, I'm calling Bull!@#$. Newsflash Velax: That game has two turns per day so you can play it twice a day. Playing it twice a day is not abnormal or unbalancing. You want to play once a day and have that be the norm for everyone else, too? Then, as NoblesseChevawhatsit says: Go play on the Colonies.
What we're saying is that the attitude that if other realms want to have a chance against Aurvandil, they should just man up and get their activity up to what's obviously the most sensible levels is not a reasonable one.
Yeah, it is. You want your people to log in more often? Then give them some incentive to do so. Send your inspirational speeches. Make things exciting. Fight the good fight. Send the cool RPs. Fire them up. Make them *want* to play each and every turn so they don't miss anything. Find out what your players want, and give it to them!
I really don't understand why you would choose to attack the Aurvandil players in this fashion. What do you expect them to do, deliberately miss turns so that everyone else can keep up with them? Take a survey of their enemies to find the average number of missed turns for each of the realms they're at war with, and then schedule missed moves for each of their own nobles so they don't have a massive, unbalancing, abnormally high rate of activity, as compared to their enemies?
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What he's saying is that logging in and playing every turn is: "abnormal", "gives a"massive advantage", that the game "isn't intended to be played that way", and that is "unbalances things".
Aside from the "intended" part, I don't see anything false about those statements. And the "intended" part is, I think, reasonable to say if you consider "what's intended" to mean "what's kept in mind when developing the current game-mechanics balance".
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Anaris,
Again your argument is illogical. Other realms DO have a chance against Aurvandil. Aurvandil doesn't even have the most military power on Dwilight, so even a single realm like Morek Empire would have a chance against them, let alone a coalition of Morek Empire, Terran, D'Hara, etc.
Furthermore it's not Aurvandil players who're complaining accusing other realms' activity levels - it's the other way around. It's not Aurvandil saying "everyone else needs to man up", it's everyone else saying that Aurvandil needs to man down, via lowering their activity level and retarding their tax rates arbitrarily..
Furthermore you continue insinuating that the reason some of Aurvandil's regions went rogue was because they had their tax rates at optimal levels. That isn't true - they had their taxes at optimal levels up until everyone declared war on them, but once that happened the optimal levels shifted and they failed to adapt, therefore they were actually at suboptimal levels. So they're not at fault for playing optimally - they're at fault for playing sub-optimally, which contradicts everyone's claims that they play too optimally.
Penchant,
"Wrong" and "bad" don't necessarily mean the same thing. Someone could tell you to bake them a cake and you could bake them an excellent pie, in which case you'd be doing a good job at the wrong thing. Inversely you could bake that person a bad cake, thus doing a bad job at the right thing. So the words don't necessarily mean the same thing.
In BM context what I mean is that while the point of this game is subjective what constitutes optimal or suboptimal play mechanics wise can be measured objectively. So you could make an objective statement that "having taxes above sustainable levels is bad", you couldn't state that "having taxes above sustainable levels is the point of the game".
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We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed.
Took a region in a day, blocked in an army from leaving without using ships while simultaneously attacking another region gap that is potentially making a move at their capital...yeah you guys are doing so terrible. Also this comment wasn't made by you but it was said no significant progress was made by you guys. Well you crushed Barca and have already taken a duchy which you then created a realm as a buffer state for you, and don't even say well it died because you were happy with whatever happened to it. If having a bunch of active players is the reason everyone hates us well then they aren't reasonable
IC, people hate Aurvandil because they act like a bunch of elitists who don't give a crap about anybody, and everyone else is worse than them and so are their lands (role playing Barca's capital as a bunch of mud huts and extremely uncivilized.) Sure you can act like that but it tends to piss people off, especially since your diplomacy generally sucks too. (Declaring war on Kabrinskia to arrest a priest with a notification mere hours beforehand instead of having their ruler order the priest to leave.) OOC, people don't always like you because there are times where Aurvandilian players act similar to their characters. ( It's your own fault that your realm doesn't maximize gold output in every way possible and discourage characters from being anything but a warrior though not said in those exact words, it felt like it, IMO.)
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Let me clarify some things about my position:
I don't believe that anything Aurvandil is doing is against any rule or guideline. I don't believe they're maliciously trying to exploit loopholes in the game for their profit. I do know that there are (or were, I don't keep close track of their membership) some among them who were members of groups who did such things in the past, and I do know that there remains in Aurvandil a bias against the devs, and a feeling that somehow we are conspiring against them (which, if I even need to say it, is completely untrue).
Furthermore, I do not believe that there is any overt pressure within Aurvandil to be highly active, nor that more than a small fraction (if any) of its players feel that being highly active is a problem or a burden.
I do believe, however, that their high activity is abnormal in the game today—especially for Dwilight—and that it has an unbalancing effect on any conflict that involves them. I believe that trying to claim that their activity is normal or expected on Dwilight in 2012 is to be either blind or foolish.
I do not believe that anything can be gained by expecting Aurvandil to reduce its activity; that's at least as blind or foolish as the other.
I believe that if there can be any solution that removes the unbalancing effect of their activity without angering a lot of players (inside Aurvandil, outside it, or both), it involves a voluntary diaspora, spreading the highly-active Aurvandil players to various realms throughout the game, where they would become a military elite to be looked up to and depended upon, much as elite high-activity armies were in many realms in years past. I do not believe that this can or should be forced, but that it should be pointed out as an option that would both allow the players to prosper, and remove, to a great degree, the stigma that is currently placed on them.
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Took a region in a day, blocked in an army from leaving without using ships while simultaneously attacking another region gap that is potentially making a move at their capital...yeah you guys are doing so terrible.
To be fair that happened because the Terran general didn't issue any orders for over a week, so the Terran army was getting gobbled up piecemeal and no regions were properly defended except for a couple of cities.
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Furthermore you continue insinuating that the reason some of Aurvandil's regions went rogue was because they had their tax rates at optimal levels. That isn't true - they had their taxes at optimal levels up until everyone declared war on them, but once that happened the optimal levels shifted and they failed to adapt, therefore they were actually at suboptimal levels. So they're not at fault for playing optimally - they're at fault for playing sub-optimally, which contradicts everyone's claims that they play too optimally.
Er...I think one of us has misunderstood the other. Or possibly both.
What I'm saying is exactly that the regions went rogue because their tax rates were too high.
If you will entertain an example with numbers fabricated out of nowhere, consider a region with a 22% tax rate, and an otherwise identical region with a 19% tax rate. Both receive a sudden shock—for instance, the multiple war declarations by realms the regions' populations looked upon very well.
The region with the 19% tax rate will have its stats dip, but recover, because it has not been on the edge of a precipice.
The region with the 22% tax rate will have its stats plummet, and unless the tax rate is dropped well below 19%, they will not recover, because the people have been bled dry for so long, they need to be treated much more gently after the shock.
Do you understand why I say that running taxes at what you are calling an "optimal" tax rate is a very dangerous thing to do?
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Aside from the "intended" part, I don't see anything false about those statements. And the "intended" part is, I think, reasonable to say if you consider "what's intended" to mean "what's kept in mind when developing the current game-mechanics balance".
Playing every turn, twice per day, is intended play. That's why there are two turns per day. Unless you're trying that even though there are two turns per day, that it is intended for you to only play one of them. Or that you're only supposed to play, say, two out of three turns.
Using terms such as "unbalancing" and "massive advantage" are loaded words intended to imply that the people who are logging in to play every turn are doing something wrong. That doing so is somehow unintended an abusive. I'm sorry, but that's pure bull!@#$. In fact, you could make a damn good case that making such a claim is, in fact, violating the Inalienable Rights of the players of Aurvandil. After all, playing at your own pace is the #1 IR. That manes they can play as often as they want, or as infrequently as they want, and it's no one else's damned business. They are allowed to play as often as they want, and their right to do so is guaranteed by the Inalienable Rights. Complaining that they play too often is just as much a breach of the IR as is complaining that your own people don't play often enough.
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Maybe people are just jealous of Aurvandil. ;) Just maybe...
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Penchant,
"Wrong" and "bad" don't necessarily mean the same thing. Someone could tell you to bake them a cake and you could bake them an excellent pie, in which case you'd be doing a good job at the wrong thing. Inversely you could bake that person a bad cake, thus doing a bad job at the right thing. So the words don't necessarily mean the same thing.
In BM context what I mean is that while the point of this game is subjective what constitutes optimal or suboptimal play mechanics wise can be measured objectively. So you could make an objective statement that "having taxes above sustainable levels is bad", you couldn't state that "having taxes above sustainable levels is the point of the game".
To the RL example, you haven't gave an example of where you did it badly but not wrong, you merely put them both in the sentence. If I made the cake badly, how could I have not done something wrong? To the BM, also just because you say that sustainable levels isn't the point of the game, doesn't imply that they are not playing wrong because they of it. I put too much salt in the cake so I made it wrong but the point of making cake isn't how much salt I put in it. Also, I am no longer arguing that what you said isn't what you meant but that before you clarified your intention it seemed like you were implying people who have their tax rate below the optimal amount of gold were partly playing wrong. As you have clarified what you meant, feel free to drop it, just don't continue to claim people are playing badly but that it doesn't means its wrong the way they are playing as that is what you were initially claiming.
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I fully agree with everything Indirik is saying... Hell hath just froze over. :o
and on another note I think people are jealous of Aurvandiil.
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Playing every turn, twice per day, is intended play. That's why there are two turns per day. Unless you're trying that even though there are two turns per day, that it is intended for you to only play one of them. Or that you're only supposed to play, say, two out of three turns.
Using terms such as "unbalancing" and "massive advantage" are loaded words intended to imply that the people who are logging in to play every turn are doing something wrong. That doing so is somehow unintended an abusive. I'm sorry, but that's pure bull!@#$. In fact, you could make a damn good case that making such a claim is, in fact, violating the Inalienable Rights of the players of Aurvandil. After all, playing at your own pace is the #1 IR. That manes they can play as often as they want, or as infrequently as they want, and it's no one else's damned business. They are allowed to play as often as they want, and their right to do so is guaranteed by the Inalienable Rights. Complaining that they play too often is just as much a breach of the IR as is complaining that your own people don't play often enough.
To the first paragraph, Anaris is claiming that when mechanics are made they are not made in mind that 100% or even 90% will all be active every single turn. Anaris is not complaining about Aurvandils activity, merely stating that, that mechanics were not made with those kind of rates even remotely close in mind. As to the unbalanced and massive advantage, that is plainly the truth. If On Atamara CE fought Carelia they would have a massive advantage and it would be unbalanced, that doesn't mean that CE is doing anything wrong, it's just the truth.
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I am not going to try to imply the activity they show and the participation they claim wouldn't be nice but I definitely am not jealous as though there is nothing wrong with their realm, I would not want to be in a realm like Aurvandil, otherwise I would be in Aurvandil. The realm I am in, is the realm I want to be in though that doesn't mean I think my realm is even close to perfect in any way.
Edit: Would someone, preferably an Aurvamdilian as they know what's going on best ,want to write up something on what's been going on in the war currently for the Facebook page?
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Playing every turn, twice per day, is intended play. That's why there are two turns per day. Unless you're trying that even though there are two turns per day, that it is intended for you to only play one of them. Or that you're only supposed to play, say, two out of three turns.
So you're saying a realm where the large, if not the vast majority of players can log on and respond to orders every turn is perfectly compensated for by the game's mechanics, given the relative activity levels of current realms, and has no negative effect on any other realm?
BattleMaster is a PvP game. As such it is highly confrontational, and highly dependent on the skill level and effort expended on the parts of the players involved. Maybe not quite so heavily as FPS style games, but it it still counts. If your team can't be bothered to even play, then you *will* lose. And, IMNSHO, you deserve to lose.
I'd be interested if you can provide other examples of PvP games where the leading members of clans/guilds/whatever will be punished by the game developers for any criticism of the lack of activity of other members.
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So you're saying a realm where the large, if not the vast majority of players can log on and respond to orders every turn is perfectly compensated for by the game's mechanics, given the relative activity levels of current realms, and has no negative effect on any other realm?
No he's saying just what that paragraph says
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No he's saying just what that paragraph says
He is arguing the wrong point though basically as Velax is talking at a realm level where I highly doubt especially from how Anaris sounds that all mechanics were built with the expectation that all realms would be having 90+% of characters being active very single turn.
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Sorry, I'm calling Bull!@#$. Newsflash Velax: That game has two turns per day so you can play it twice a day. Playing it twice a day is not abnormal or unbalancing. You want to play once a day and have that be the norm for everyone else, too? Then, as NoblesseChevawhatsit says: Go play on the Colonies.
You're missing the point. I don't want to play only once a day. I'm likely one of the most hyperactive players in this game. However, I recognise that's not going to be the same for everyone and the existence of an entire realm of players where it does happen basically gives them an "I win" card against pretty much every other realm in a 1v1 war - no matter the size of the other realm - or with even worse odds. So they're struggling to win currently when it's 8v1. And the fact they can't score an easy win against 8 other realms is somehow being used as an argument that this style of play isn't unbalancing? That's what I'd be calling Bull!@#$ on.
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To the RL example, you haven't gave an example of where you did it badly but not wrong, you merely put them both in the sentence. If I made the cake badly, how could I have not done something wrong? To the BM, also just because you say that sustainable levels isn't the point of the game, doesn't imply that they are not playing wrong because they of it. I put too much salt in the cake so I made it wrong but the point of making cake isn't how much salt I put in it. Also, I am no longer arguing that what you said isn't what you meant but that before you clarified your intention it seemed like you were implying people who have their tax rate below the optimal amount of gold were partly playing wrong. As you have clarified what you meant, feel free to drop it, just don't continue to claim people are playing badly but that it doesn't means its wrong the way they are playing as that is what you were initially claiming.
Ahh that was confusing to read, but I did understand the part where you said to drop it :P (but I also got the gist of it - you're right I'm using weird/incorrect terminology).
Someone else would have been able to put my words more succinctly but alas not I.
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To the first paragraph, Anaris is claiming that when mechanics are made they are not made in mind that 100% or even 90% will all be active every single turn. Anaris is not complaining about Aurvandils activity, merely stating that, that mechanics were not made with those kind of rates even remotely close in mind.
As far as I am aware, player activity levels have not ever been taken into consideration in any game balancing decisions. (Other than the auto-abdication from positions.) We've never sat down and evaluated production, CS, food, etc. From a standpoint of "we think players will miss 20% of turns", nor ever considered adjusting anything based on player activity levels. During our current efforts to rebalance region stats, the issue has never arisen a single time. I don't even know where you'd begin to account for that kind of thing.
Extremely high activity levels used to be the norm back when I joined. Back then a realm like Aurvandil would have been average, at best. There are realms on other islands that could probably match Aurvandil's military performance. Have Aurvandil square off against CE and see how well they do.
The idea that such activity/movement rates would be OK on other isplands, but not Dwilight is also ridiculous. Dwilight is the SMA island, not the "slow and steady" island, or the low activity island. We don't have separate standards for activity or movement rate on Dwilight. Nor are there any such implied expectations.
Does it suck fighting against something like that when you can't match it? Yep, it sure does. Been there, done that. Lost a few armies to it. It's your job to find a way to compensate for it. (And no, I don't have any magic solutions or innovative suggestions to help you with that.)
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Too many entitled realms, too many nobles here think they are entitled to their realms... Like so much dust in the wind.
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So you're saying a realm where the large, if not the vast majority of players can log on and respond to orders every turn is perfectly compensated for by the game's mechanics, given the relative activity levels of current realms, and has no negative effect on any other realm?
I said exactly what I meant, which bears no relation at all to what you claim. Go read what I said again.
I will, however, add this: game mechanics makes absolutely no attempt to balance the game based on player activity level, make assumptions based on player activity level, or take it into account in any way. Nor, do I feel, should it attempt to do so. Your realm is what you, and the other players, make of it. If your players log on once a day, then you had better plan your strategies and moves accordingly. If you don't, then attempting to fight a realm of players logging on every turn is likely to proove very disastrous for you.
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(And no, I don't have any magic solutions or innovative suggestions to help you with that.)
Two-turn moves help a TON, especially if there's an enemy in a nearby region. I also try and help my armies think a step ahead, sorta telegraphing what orders might be coming next turn barring a major change. Occasionally this results in a less-active player not turning back in time and getting slammed, but it's more rare than ordering an attack and having only two guys go with you.
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You're missing the point. I don't want to play only once a day. I'm likely one of the most hyperactive players in this game. However, I recognise that's not going to be the same for everyone and the existence of an entire realm of players where it does happen basically gives them an "I win" card against pretty much every other realm in a 1v1 war - no matter the size of the other realm - or with even worse odds. So they're struggling to win currently when it's 8v1. And the fact they can't score an easy win against 8 other realms is somehow being used as an argument that this style of play isn't unbalancing? That's what I'd be calling Bull!@#$ on.
It isn't exactly 8 v 1. D'hara has rarely engaged Aurvandil, maybe never? once? Barca is out of the fight and is effectively useless. Iashalur, Astrum, Morek and Corsanctum can't march that far south nor have they had any major engagements. This war is essentially Aurvandil vs Terran. Sure there are others on Terrans side but their allies are doing them no real favors. They kinda sorta meta gamed to get everyone to declare war to cause Aurvandil problems with their peasants. Beyond that, that is the only damage the other 7 members of the 8 v 1 have really caused.
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It isn't exactly 8 v 1. D'hara has rarely engaged Aurvandil, maybe never? once? Barca is out of the fight and is effectively useless. Iashalur, Astrum, Morek and Corsanctum can't march that far south nor have they had any major engagements. This war is essentially Aurvandil vs Terran. Sure there are others on Terrans side but their allies are doing them no real favors. They kinda sorta meta gamed to get everyone to declare war to cause Aurvandil problems with their peasants. Beyond that, that is the only damage the other 7 members of the 8 v 1 have really caused.
Several things:
1.Astrum and Corsanctum have been actively helping though not with their full army
2. Barca is out of the fight because they got ko'ed by Aurvandil so they kinda count as a realm that's fighting its just the one first to be extensively attacked.
3. There was no meta gaming in the war declarations, it's just happened that they couldn't help that much after they had already declared war, it wasn't planned that they wouldn't help that much.
4.D'hara has been in at least 2 major battles
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I don't know how Aurvandil can say they haven't been successful in the war so far. They've been hugely successful.
1. They knocked Barca out of the war and put them on the brink of death from which they are only now barely recovering from.
2. They defeated the combined 'Moot forces soundly in the field.
3. They sacked Paisland and Paisly.
4. They TO'ed Paisland and Paisly.
5. They established a buffer realm colony in Paisly.
6. They have retaken Paisland.
7. They have struck deep into Terran territory.
8. No Aurvandil region has suffered attack the entire war, nor has Aurvandil lost a battle.
They are utterly dominating in every way possible.
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If this is really the case, then for every other realm, I have just this to say: tough titties for you.
Heh, "titties".
I, for one, welcome our hyperactive Aurvandilian titties breasts overlords.
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Don't like Aurvandil?
Why not gather people who hate Aurvandil enough to join a new realm and move every turn? ;)
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Don't like Aurvandil?
Why not gather people who hate Aurvandil enough to join a new realm and move every turn? ;)
Wait there is alreayd a realm like that, Barca or Fissoa, both are close to the enemy n everyone hates 'em!
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Several things:
3. There was no meta gaming in the war declarations, it's just happened that they couldn't help that much after they had already declared war, it wasn't planned that they wouldn't help that much.
Vellos already admitted that the reason he tried to get the north to declare wasn't because they could send armies to help but because he knew that the more realms that declared war the more peasants would protest. The main reason according to Vellos was for the war protests. That seems to me to be kind of meta gaming.
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Maybe we could rewrite the game code to make Aurvandiil easier to beat?
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Maybe we could rewrite the game code to make Aurvandiil easier to beat?
It has been suggested more than once by folks playing in Aurvandil that the dev team has done this. It's insulting and virtually impossible from a technical approach. Please don't encourage this perception, even jokingly.
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Vellos already admitted that the reason he tried to get the north to declare wasn't because they could send armies to help but because he knew that the more realms that declared war the more peasants would protest. The main reason according to Vellos was for the war protests. That seems to me to be kind of meta gaming.
I don't think so. There's a reason why classes like Diplomat and Courier exist (classes which Aurvandil had, before the war, ignored and belittled). War protests were also a known feature. I think it was a very clever move by the Moot. Scare the peasants in Aurvandil that half the world is coming to eat them.
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I don't think so. There's a reason why classes like Diplomat and Courier exist (classes which Aurvandil had, before the war, ignored and belittled). War protests were also a known feature. I think it was a very clever move by the Moot. Scare the peasants in Aurvandil that half the world is coming to eat them.
I agree. Meta-gaming is taking an action that makes no sense in context, only because the player knows the game mechanics effect. Declaring war for intimidation purposes is a perfectly legitimate IC move; the game mechanics actually reflect the IC intent.
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I don't know how Aurvandil can say they haven't been successful in the war so far. They've been hugely successful.
1. They knocked Barca out of the war and put them on the brink of death from which they are only now barely recovering from.
2. They defeated the combined 'Moot forces soundly in the field.
3. They sacked Paisland and Paisly.
4. They TO'ed Paisland and Paisly.
5. They established a buffer realm colony in Paisly.
6. They have retaken Paisland.
7. They have struck deep into Terran territory.
8. No Aurvandil region has suffered attack the entire war, nor has Aurvandil lost a battle.
They are utterly dominating in every way possible.
+1
Summa pia gratia nostra conservando corpora et cutodita, de gente fera Orvandeuxica nos libera, quae nostra vastat, Deus, regna
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But Morek and Iashalur cant march that far south. There is nothing to fear from them. Astrum and Corsanctum might be able to make it. The purpose was to scare the peasants when there was no actual threat.
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But Morek and Iashalur cant march that far south. There is nothing to fear from them. Astrum and Corsanctum might be able to make it. The purpose was to scare the peasants when there was no actual threat.
I do not know how planned the whole protest thing was from the other sides, but as far as Morek is concerned, we truly believed we could have concretely helped. To the point we had to see all our men deserting under our nose before realising that we were unable to fight actively.
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The peasants don't know that. In fact, it appears that most of the nobles didn't even know that. :p
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But Morek and Iashalur cant march that far south. There is nothing to fear from them. Astrum and Corsanctum might be able to make it. The purpose was to scare the peasants when there was no actual threat.
Yes. They're easily scared, after all. The purpose was also to scare the nobles, although that may not be as successful.
There are others effects also. Aurvandilian priests could now be arrested on the spot, for example. I know that there aren't any, but that's your own fault. :)
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I'm quite sure a while back Tom declared it's against the game rules to declare war if you don't actually intend to fight, it was some issue over people declaring war frequently despite having no intention to fight.
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I don't know how Aurvandil can say they haven't been successful in the war so far. They've been hugely successful.
1. They knocked Barca out of the war and put them on the brink of death from which they are only now barely recovering from.
2. They defeated the combined 'Moot forces soundly in the field.
3. They sacked Paisland and Paisly.
4. They TO'ed Paisland and Paisly.
5. They established a buffer realm colony in Paisly.
6. They have retaken Paisland.
7. They have struck deep into Terran territory.
8. No Aurvandil region has suffered attack the entire war, nor has Aurvandil lost a battle.
They are utterly dominating in every way possible.
Interesting you should say that, from the Aurvandilan point of view we've done terribly in this war, we've won a few battles and swatted Barca, but otherwise achieved little else. We can win as many battles as we like, but if we can't solidified our victory in any sort of real results to further the war then we can hardly consider ourselves to be winning. Our performance has been quite limp, and failed to make any sort of decisive gain or victory, whilst the number of enemies arrayed against us has grown exponentially.
people hate Aurvandil because they act like a bunch of elitists who don't give a crap about anybody, and everyone else is worse than them and so are their lands (role playing Barca's capital as a bunch of mud huts and extremely uncivilized.)
I hate to have to point this out to you for a second time, but that never happened, stop saying it did when you full well it didn't. And well, I think it's pretty clear Aurvandil cared about Barca and D'Hara, considering how much time we wasted trying to ingratiate ourselves to them and to give them what they wanted out of a peace.
Sure you can act like that but it tends to piss people off, especially since your diplomacy generally sucks too. (Declaring war on Kabrinskia to arrest a priest with a notification mere hours beforehand instead of having their ruler order the priest to leave.)
You can say it sucks, but it got the result we wanted in the manner we wanted.
Yes. Yes, it is.
I really hope that you will come to realize the degree to which the attitudes of the players in Aurvandil is very different from that of those in the rest of the game.
And that's where we succeed. We have the right attitude, the game is meant to be played by active players who want to be active and try to be.
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I'm not sure of the exact instance to which you are referring. The usual context in which something like that is cited is the case of a "friendly war", where two sides agree to a declared war in order to do something that they otherwise couldn't. For example, Realm A declares war on Realm B so they can take a region from Realm B, with Realm B allowing them to do it uncontested, the declaring cease-fire once the region is taken. i.e. there is no way to take the region without a war, so they declare a "war" they don't intend to fight to allow them to transfer a region.
The other possibility, which no longer applies, would be to declare a war and have occasional meaningless battles to avoid the (now removed) TMP penalties. Neither side really wants to fight the war, and has no intentions of looting, taking regions, or actually making it a real war, it's just a mere formality to avoid game mechanics penalties. (I know of one instance where such a thing was actually proposed IG.)
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I'm not sure of the exact instance to which you are referring. The usual context in which something like that is cited is the case of a "friendly war", where two sides agree to a declared war in order to do something that they otherwise couldn't. For example, Realm A declares war on Realm B so they can take a region from Realm B, with Realm B allowing them to do it uncontested, the declaring cease-fire once the region is taken. i.e. there is no way to take the region without a war, so they declare a "war" they don't intend to fight to allow them to transfer a region.
The other possibility, which no longer applies, would be to declare a war and have occasional meaningless battles to avoid the (now removed) TMP penalties. Neither side really wants to fight the war, and has no intentions of looting, taking regions, or actually making it a real war, it's just a mere formality to avoid game mechanics penalties. (I know of one instance where such a thing was actually proposed IG.)
Also, the northern realms are fighting– just not always with soldiers. Gold and food are powerful weapons. As are large-scale public diplomatic denunciations.
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Maybe people are just jealous of Aurvandil. ;) Just maybe...
*Stands up and begins the slow clap*
http://youtu.be/31M_MdSVxV8
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Don't like Aurvandil?
Why not gather people who hate Aurvandil enough to join a new realm and move every turn? ;)
Sounds like clanning if its done OOC, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting.
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I'm quite sure a while back Tom declared it's against the game rules to declare war if you don't actually intend to fight, it was some issue over people declaring war frequently despite having no intention to fight.
Says the guy who declared war on Kabrinskia just to capture a priest, then expects peace immediately afterwards, so that kinda sounds like declaring war when you don't intend to fight. I do not know if this is actually a rule but isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? And how can you say that the realms didn't intend to fight even though they were complaining that their men were deserting so they thought the feature was done to heavily?
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Says the guy who declared war on Kabrinskia just to capture a priest, then expects peace immediately afterwards, so that kinda sounds like declaring war when you don't intend to fight. I do not know if this is actually a rule but isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? And how can you say that the realms didn't intend to fight even though they were complaining that their men were deserting so they thought the feature was done to heavily?
When Aurvandil declared war on Kabrinskia we drew our swords and made it clear we would not tolerate any form of subterfuge from priests or clergy, promptly arresting those responsible. The use of priests against us was an act of war on the part of Kabrinskia as far as we cared, and we made it clear we would retaliate in kind and stand our ground on issue should the Grandmaster not keep his priests in line.
I never said the realms didn't intend to fight, but based on what other people were saying that was the case and so I asked about previous instances where such actions were frowned upon.
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Keep doing what yer doing if its pissing people off in Bm you can be sure you are doing the right thing...
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Keep doing what yer doing if its pissing people off in Bm you can be sure you are doing the right thing...
Only on the forums, it's much harder to piss some one off in character.
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Keep doing what yer doing if its pissing people off in Bm you can be sure you are doing the right thing...
Gauihu's ghost appreciates this sentiment.
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Sounds like clanning if its done OOC, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting.
Clanning is only against the rules if it excludes others.
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Clanning is only against the rules if it excludes others.
And an OOC clan to destroy an IC realm is by definition exclusive of players associated with that realm.
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I agree. Meta-gaming is taking an action that makes no sense in context, only because the player knows the game mechanics effect. Declaring war for intimidation purposes is a perfectly legitimate IC move; the game mechanics actually reflect the IC intent.
I'm quite sure a while back Tom declared it's against the game rules to declare war if you don't actually intend to fight, it was some issue over people declaring war frequently despite having no intention to fight.
This isn't what is happening at all. All of the northern realms that declared war on Aurvandil HAVE participated militarily already. Terran and D'Hara didn't raise 35,000 CS to retake Paisly by themselves. Astrum, Kabrinskia, Morek, Corsanctum, and even Iashular were all militarily involved in retaking Paisland and Paisly.
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And an OOC clan to destroy an IC realm is by definition exclusive of players associated with that realm.
Is it though? If they are willing to fight Aurvandil why would a group against Aurvandil complain. You make it sound like we are against the players themselves but we are not. But even if this realm is created there is only one possible way I would have a character in it as I am not going to change the plans of my character nor will I stop playing him for this, and the only way it could work is unlikely.
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Is it though? If they are willing to fight Aurvandil why would a group against Aurvandil complain. You make it sound like we are against the players themselves but we are not. But even if this realm is created there is only one possible way I would have a character in it as I am not going to change the plans of my character nor will I stop playing him for this, and the only way it could work is unlikely.
I'm sorry, but a group of players OOC organizing to, say, mass-immigrate, found a new realm, make hyper-active armies, or something like that, not due to IC motivations of their characters, but because they dislike what a certain realm, to them, represents (essentially OOCly), and then kill off that realm they don't like is practically the textbook definition of exclusive clanning.
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I'm sorry, but a group of players OOC organizing to, say, mass-immigrate, found a new realm, make hyper-active armies, or something like that, not due to IC motivations of their characters, but because they dislike what a certain realm, to them, represents (essentially OOCly), and then kill off that realm they don't like is practically the textbook definition of exclusive clanning.
Where is the exclusion? Just because you are looking for hyper-active people doesn't mean you won't allow less active people in just because they aren't as active.
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Where is the exclusion? Just because you are looking for hyper-active people doesn't mean you won't allow less active people in just because they aren't as active.
You're excluding the realm you're trying to destroy.
Which is fine if your characters were excluding other characters because of some IC hatred*– it's not fine if you are all on IRC and chatting about your plan to kill Keplerstan, then a player with characters in Keplerstan hears about it, and you exclude him– or, especially, exclude one of his other characters.
* Yes, I'm aware that this could be faked. Obviously IC politics can cloak OOC hatred. It's a finicky judgment call. But plotting out the demise of a realm OOC with a group of players who want it gone because they dislike how those players play together is by definition exclusive of the targeted players. You can't use IC means as an expression of your OOC will to prove "the right way to play" BM. IMHO, there is no right way to play BM.
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Keep doing what yer doing if its pissing people off in Bm you can be sure you are doing the right thing...
http://youtu.be/_Gqwi7Y96sk
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You're excluding the realm you're trying to destroy.
Which is fine if your characters were excluding other characters because of some IC hatred*– it's not fine if you are all on IRC and chatting about your plan to kill Keplerstan, then a player with characters in Keplerstan hears about it, and you exclude him– or, especially, exclude one of his other characters.
Oh, please! Hundreds of messages complaining about how 'bad' (or too well) the Aurvandil nobles play? While not cheating, they can play wherever way they want!
And honestly, I hope they continue playing (and destroying everything in they path) for a long time! ... And I say this while one of my characters is fighting against them.
They are hyper-actives, hyper-organised? GOOD FOR THEM! If they enjoy the game this way...
And don't be wrong, THEY DON'T EXCLUDE YOU BY DESTROYING 'YOUR' REALM!... They only... 'shake things' a bit. Hey! this is BATTLEMASTER!!! So if they battle better than most... well, better yourself or enjoy begin bested! 8)
Really, I think you don't understand the EXCLUDING thing... the meaning.
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You're excluding the realm you're trying to destroy.
Which is fine if your characters were excluding other characters because of some IC hatred*– it's not fine if you are all on IRC and chatting about your plan to kill Keplerstan, then a player with characters in Keplerstan hears about it, and you exclude him– or, especially, exclude one of his other characters.
* Yes, I'm aware that this could be faked. Obviously IC politics can cloak OOC hatred. It's a finicky judgment call. But plotting out the demise of a realm OOC with a group of players who want it gone because they dislike how those players play together is by definition exclusive of the targeted players. You can't use IC means as an expression of your OOC will to prove "the right way to play" BM. IMHO, there is no right way to play BM.
I am not sure I completely agree. I a character dislikes BadLand but does not feel his country, PoliticsLand is capable of defeating BadLand, I see no reason why they can not create GoodLand, try to convince other characters who dislike BadLand to join, optimize the GoodLand to be a war machine by rewarding Characters who get things done and attacking BadLand. Not sure what the problem is.
I can see a problem with the following:
Having your character suddenly hate BadLand without being able to reasonably role play a reason.
Using out of game communication channels instead of coordinating in game at any stage of the process.
Excluding characters without being able to reasonably role play a reason.
Disbanding GoodLand arbitrarily.
I am sure there are other bad ideas that could be added to the above list. I do not think, however, that creating GoodLand in the way described HAS to involve any of these bad ideas.
Furthermore, the idea of never having OOC thoughts/feelings/opinions influence your character makes no sense to me. I made an OOC decision to make one of my characters a Priest and created role plays to make the player decision fit the character and existing story. I decided OOC to restructure a religion and created role plays to support that decision. We do that all the time. The problem is having your character act drastically contrary to existing storyline. Just my opinion…
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Oh, please! Hundreds of messages complaining about how 'bad' (or too well) the Aurvandil nobles play? While not cheating, they can play wherever way they want!
And honestly, I hope they continue playing (and destroying everything in they path) for a long time! ... And I say this while one of my characters is fighting against them.
They are hyper-actives, hyper-organised? GOOD FOR THEM! If they enjoy the game this way...
And don't be wrong, THEY DON'T EXCLUDE YOU BY DESTROYING 'YOUR' REALM!... They only... 'shake things' a bit. Hey! this is BATTLEMASTER!!! So if they battle better than most... well, better yourself or enjoy begin bested! 8)
Really, I think you don't understand the EXCLUDING thing... the meaning.
I think Poliorketes is right, Vellos.
I feel like lately you feel like it's your job to be the Clan Police—and not just that, but you feel like you have to expand the definition of clanning every other week or so. First you claim Outer Tilog is a clan, just because you couldn't grok the RP atmosphere there, and now this.
There is so much IC reason for people to want Aurvandil dead, I cannot see how a group formed for that purpose on Dwilight could reasonably be considered formed for purely OOC purposes. The realm's at war with pretty much the entire rest of the continent, for goodness' sake.
And no, Vellos, deciding that you want to destroy a particular group of IC characters for IC reasons—even if there are also OOC reasons for wishing to do so—is not exclusionary. If that were so, then anyone who bans a character for joining their realm from the enemy realm on suspicion of spying would be guilty of clanning. In fact, your definition of "exclusion" seems so broad that it would pretty much encompass anyone banning someone for any reason.
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Did none of you read what I posted?
Obviously there are IC reasons. I'm not saying that there couldn't be a realm dedicated to destroying Aurvandil. Nor am I saying any person with an OOC dislike for Aurvandil is necessarily a clanner.
You've all pointed out there are numerous IC reasons to dislike a realm– I agree. You're right. I said that myself.
What I'm saying is that if there were reasonable proof of a realm being founded based on OOC organization with the OOC purpose of destroying Aurvandil, especially with the earlier-suggested motive being due to a dislike of those players' (rather nebulously defined) "playing style," that would be exclusive clanning. I didn't say a realm based on IC motivations with an IC purpose of destroying Aurvandil is clanning. And I specified that, yes, it could be very hard to tell the difference.
You are correct, I do see myself as the clan police. One, it's every players right to bitch and complain about things they think are wrong. Two, I think that social exclusivity is a uniquely pernicious activity in a game which is fun mostly due to its social content. Three, I think I do have a different definition than many, thus it is doubly important to express it. Four, I wish to repeatedly expound my opinions in the hope that they will stick with someone.
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Five, its just your opinion and in no way valuable or more important than the myriad of opinions splattered on this forum.
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Five, its just your opinion and in no way valuable or more important than the myriad of opinions splattered on this forum.
Right, because I clearly claimed that my word was divinely instituted law.* I'm expressing my opinion. Duh.
* Though, FWIW, if a clanning case came up in the Magistrates, it's also the perspective I would be likely to argue– but obviously I'm just one of many Magistrates, and we can't act alone.
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In order for it to be clan behavior against the rules, you have to demonstrate that it is excluding other players from taking part in it. I.e. "you can't be a lord/ruler/judge unless you're part of our OOC group".
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The way I see it, if a load of players arranged out of character to join together, take control of a realm or otherwise form one with the specific intent of destroying Aurvandil is isn't necessarily clanning, and I don't actually care if it is since the definition of Clan in Battlemaster has been mutilated beyond reason, but what it is, is power gaming, similarly against the rules of the game.
If it's all done IC, for IC reasons, and not done OOC by players with an OOC grudge and intent for a specific consequence, then it is fine.
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In order for it to be clan behavior against the rules, you have to demonstrate that it is excluding other players from taking part in it. I.e. "you can't be a lord/ruler/judge unless you're part of our OOC group".
Begs the question why Aurvandil was punished for "clanning" then. Despite the lack of clans and complete lack of that behaviour.
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Begs the question why Aurvandil was punished for "clanning" then. Despite the lack of clans and complete lack of that behaviour.
Some of those accusations were well founded, and don't need to (and won't) be discussed here. That the behavior largely seems to have stopped is commendable. Others are typical human behavior, and reflect an unease or envy more than specific, substantive accusations.
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Go read the Magistrates rulings. This really isn't the place to discuss them.
However, I was mainly adddressing Vellos' description of it being exlusive, not a be-all-end-all definition of clanning. There are too many people from too many backgrounds around here to come up with a concrete definition of such a nebulous term.
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Some of those accusations were well founded, and don't need to (and won't) be discussed here. That the behavior largely seems to have stopped is commendable. Others are typical human behavior, and reflect an unease or envy more than specific, substantive accusations.
I'm sure there is a time and a place where they do need to be discussed, but it is somewhat relevant to look at the Magistrates precedent on "Clans/Clanning" if we're discussing what is and isn't allowed.
On an unrelated note, it's nice to see how Aurvandil has hijacked a thread specifically designed to discuss other realms and places in the stead of the Marrocidenian war thread.
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So Iashalur.
What's hangin'?
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Yes, as the OP I will ask that the mod clean up this thread, since this is supposed to be about the NORTH WESTERN ASTROIST states. Which means while talk of the war may be relevant, talk specifically about Aurvandil would be off-topic. As would the creation of a realm to oppose them.
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So Iashalur.
What's hangin'?
From what I can witness there, there isn't much happening besides watching moss grow and smashing monsters when they pop up which is quite frequently at least.
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From what I can witness there, there isn't much happening besides watching moss grow and smashing monsters when they pop up which is quite frequently at least.
I think it's time for Astrum to do some land swaps with Iashalur, such that Iashalur is adjacent to Libero. Then, those two can beat the hell out of each other, with Morek serving as sugar daddy to Libero and Astrum to Iashalur.
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As much as that would appeal to a new player such as I, I do not think that is likely to happen. :P
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Iashular, Astrums suburbs... :P
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... or ya'll could march another army down to Terran. Just sayin'. Sure, it's hard... but it's not like you have anything else going on.
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... or ya'll could march another army down to Terran. Just sayin'. Sure, it's hard... but it's not like you have anything else going on.
Or maybe we are already there... Sort of.
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What's unnatural about Aurvandil's strength is the number of nobles that magically spawn to join them and their colonies.
Many realms have fallen and risen on Dwilight. None have ever had a growth in any way similar to Aurvandil's or its colonies.
In fact, Aurvandil's lowered movement rates that Chevalier complains about correlate with what would have otherwise been a normal character count growth.
Only one other realm has managed to achieve so much with so little and displayed a similar character count growth... Thulsoma.
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What's unnatural about Aurvandil's strength is the number of nobles that magically spawn to join them and their colonies.
Many realms have fallen and risen on Dwilight. None have ever had a growth in any way similar to Aurvandil's or its colonies.
In fact, Aurvandil's lowered movement rates that Chevalier complains about correlate with what would have otherwise been a normal character count growth.
Only one other realm has managed to achieve so much with so little and displayed a similar character count growth... Thulsoma.
Chenier I worry about you. I understand not like aurvandil but the hate you express towards us is so excessive. I'm not even going to dignify the veiled accusation with a response because it is utterly ridiculous.
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Its true... I gotta break free from the cage... Damn you Aurvandiil... Ok ok It was RL and we met with our laptops in the park, oh god I feel like I wanna puke, anyways the entire OOC clan of Aurvandiilian nobles were there, matching jackets , insignia on the back, One of them handed me a suitcase and asked if Asylon was in with them... The suitcase had $50000 in gold coins in it... Oh god they are gonna kill me for telling everyone...
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I knew it...
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What's unnatural about Aurvandil's strength is the number of nobles that magically spawn to join them and their colonies.
Many realms have fallen and risen on Dwilight. None have ever had a growth in any way similar to Aurvandil's or its colonies.
In fact, Aurvandil's lowered movement rates that Chevalier complains about correlate with what would have otherwise been a normal character count growth.
Only one other realm has managed to achieve so much with so little and displayed a similar character count growth... Thulsoma.
Hmm... where to begin.
What colonies? And What growth?
Firstly, Aurvandil has no colonies, never has, and secondly what growth? Falkirk steadily getting nobles, what is that to do with us? The Provincia? As I recall they only had a handful of nobles, most of which came from Aurvandil int he first place. As for the growth Aurvandil has, oh do you mean Allison and her lot coming down along with the remain of the Provincia? Yes it's very suspect, Allison and her Saxons, Florence and her legions of Averothoi. Oh but wait, I know a realm that had a stronger growth of characters! Madina, they went from 10 nobles early on into the war to about 35 in a few months when they really needed the boost to turn the tide of the war, but I don't exactly see you commenting on that, oh and then there is Luria Nova, only a week or so ago they jumped their number of nobles to have more than Aurvandil, but you didn't comment on that. Your bias could hardly be more obvious.
Oh, and I seem to recall during the height of the League of Free Nations both Astrum and Morek Empire rose from about 40 nobles to over 60, but again I don't exactly see you commenting on that growth. But Aurvandil gets a few nobles, some from the downfall of Summerdale, Kabrinskia and Provincia di Fiorenza and even a few from Morek Empire, and you're quick to comment.
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Its true... I gotta break free from the cage... Damn you Aurvandiil... Ok ok It was RL and we met with our laptops in the park, oh god I feel like I wanna puke, anyways the entire OOC clan of Aurvandiilian nobles were there, matching jackets , insignia on the back, One of them handed me a suitcase and asked if Asylon was in with them... The suitcase had $50000 in gold coins in it... Oh god they are gonna kill me for telling everyone...
It's a good thing that was $50,000 in Evony gold, we knew we couldn't trust you with a BM donation bribe.
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What colonies? And What growth?
So you have no clue what he's talking about?
Falkirk steadily getting nobles, what is that to do with us? The Provincia?
Man, you got a clue fast. You must be a quick learner.
oh and then there is Luria Nova, only a week or so ago they jumped their number of nobles to have more than Aurvandil, but you didn't comment on that.
That was Solaria joining it, and you know it.
It's a shame, because you have a good point. Aurvandil hasn't seen any significant growth in the past three months. Falkirk went from 15 nobles on sept. 1st to 26 nobles today, a perfectly normal and expected growth for a new realm, especially one with a rare regional war going on. Fiorenza went from 4 to 7.
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So you have no clue what he's talking about?
Man, you got a clue fast. You must be a quick learner.
That was Solaria joining it, and you know it.
It's a shame, because you have a good point. Aurvandil hasn't seen any significant growth in the past three months. Falkirk went from 15 nobles on sept. 1st to 26 nobles today, a perfectly normal and expected growth for a new realm, especially one with a rare regional war going on. Fiorenza went from 4 to 7.
Well exactly.
Aurvandil has seen no unexpected or unusual growth, aside from the mass loss of nobles we had about two months ago when we were losing about a noble per day for over a week. Provincia di Fiorenza saw a steady growth (By that, I mean three more characters) for the time they were alive, most from Aurvandil, any Falkirkian growth is thoroughly unrelated to Aurvandil, though I assume by his mention of "colonies" (Of which, Aurvandil has none) he meant Falkirk, which is the common fallacy touted by D'Hara.
Solaria joined with Luria Nova, and that wasn't worthy of suspicion, but a small chunk of Kabrinskia and a large amount of Fiorenza joins Aurvandil and that is worthy of suspicion in Chenier's eyes, which was my point. Any growth Aurvandil has had, has a clear and concise in character explanation of cause and affect. Most of the nobles that join Aurvandil are usually nobles invited or recruited by Mendicant from other realms, Lanyon is an example of that, or the Morekian Lord we recently got to defect to us, and to an extent, we can attribute Allison and her group joining to that as well.
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I assure you that the union of Sun Hall (it shouldn't have been possible for the other Solarian duchy to join, so I'm just referring to the act by its intended outcome) and Luria Nova has created plenty of suspicion.
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SO IASHALUR.
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SO IASHALUR.
Iashalur in lowercase looks like any other random collection of vaguely-foreign-but-easily-pronounceable letters that makes a cool realm name.
But IASHALUR? It sounds positively Cthuluesque. It's a much better name.
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Vaguely reminds me of Hastur.
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Do we have an ETA on Neo-Kabrinskia's founding?
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They don't have enough nobles to fill all their Lordships and they can't feed their realm. It might not happen right away.
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They don't have enough nobles to fill all their Lordships and they can't feed their realm. It might not happen right away.
Oh, sooo... they're going to just bring those regions they can, including Golden Farrow, to Terran?
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They don't have enough nobles to fill all their Lordships and they can't feed their realm.
That is definitely not the case. They have all their lordships filled, and several additional estates filled as well. The duchy of Golden Farrow is the same size it was when it was Kabrinskia, and most of the regions have very high production levels. Food may be in short supply, but no more so that when it was Kabrinskia.
I know you've been predicting that the entire area would go rogue when your people left, but those claims just don't support the reality of what really happened.
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Yeah. So far, I've kept Golden Farrow from starving, we've seen several new players join, and we've got plenty of support from the surrounding realms.
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Heh maybe dustole thought Allison = Kabrinskia. So will the new realm be calling Kabrinksia II or something or entirely something else?
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I don't know what the name will be. I can't imagine they want anything to do with Allison, though.
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Aisknirbak.
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The United Provinces of Golden Farrow is the current going name among the people planing to remake it
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The United Provinces of Golden Farrow is the current going name among the people planing to remake it
Eugh. That doesn't have a particularly euphonious ring to it.
Seems to me you'd do better with something like the Golden Confederacy. It's certainly shorter to type.
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Eugh. That doesn't have a particularly euphonious ring to it.
Seems to me you'd do better with something like the Golden Confederacy. It's certainly shorter to type.
+1 to all. United Provinces of Golden Farrow maybe could be its full name (changeable by ruler and currently only shown on realm page) but its a bad regular name as its way too long. So what would your people be called with your currently proposed name? Like citizens of D'hara are D'harans so what would citizens of United Provinces of Golden Farrow be called
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Eugh. That doesn't have a particularly euphonious ring to it.
Seems to me you'd do better with something like the Golden Confederacy. It's certainly shorter to type.
Farrow or Mech is clearly the dominant toponym, so your name the definitely reflect that. "Golden" doesn't seem that relevant.
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USGF! United States of Golden Farrow :D
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Farrow or Mech is clearly the dominant toponym, so your name the definitely reflect that. "Golden" doesn't seem that relevant.
That would be more true if they were trying to name the native people, not their own realm. "Golden" is exactly as relevant as they want it to be ;D
You may be right, though; I was just riffing off what was posted here. Looking at the regions, perhaps something more like the Farrow Federation or Greater Mech would be better.
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Golden Horde...
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Golden Horde...
The obvious choice.
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It's a shame, because you have a good point. Aurvandil hasn't seen any significant growth in the past three months. Falkirk went from 15 nobles on sept. 1st to 26 nobles today, a perfectly normal and expected growth for a new realm, especially one with a rare regional war going on. Fiorenza went from 4 to 7.
I never meant continuous and unending growth.
Aurvandil's growth (as Falkirk's) has been normal as of late. And as I said, Aurvandil's degrading military activity seems to correlate with this.
However, both realms grew from nothing to a ton of nobles in a short time frame. And maintained this advantage ever since. The only such other case I'm aware of was Thulsoma. As for Fiorenza, they didn't live long enough to establish any kind of correlation.
The lack of recent unusual growth doesn't mean there never was any unusual growth.
Aurvandil is a relatively recent realm, as is Falkirk. There are a lot of other realms on Dwilight, some of which did great efforts to recruit. None ever had anywhere near a similar growth. Chevalier might like to claim his realm is just that damn awesome, but I'm not buying it. No other realms in the whole game match what can be observed in Aurvandil.
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I dont know Asylon went from 12-15 nobles and then to 31-35 near the founding of Kabrinskia. I thought it was a bit odd but didnt complain since it got Kabrinskia off of us and they focused on D'Hara and then Terran stupidly started the war.
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People tend to join realms that fight often or fight big/losing wars. Well of course you have to lose pretty well, not get steamrolled...
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People tend to join realms that fight often or fight big/losing wars. Well of course you have to lose pretty well, not get steamrolled...
I've wondered about this. I feel like when wars start, noble count does usually go up. But why?
I'd really like to see (not in relation to Aurvandil specifically, btw): after a war is declared, what happens to a realm's noble count? If it goes up, what share are immigrants vs. new characters from old players vs. new players. Because, not gonna lie– when I see a realm's noble count spike right after a war declaration, it always makes me paranoid. And because I'm a datafreak, I then do the paranoid person thing and start poring over the data looking for trends... my gut feeling is I see a strangely large number of new players with no user info arriving in realms right after a war starts: but that could totally just be confirmation bias. I'm just interested if anybody else has noticed this, or if anybody has ideas on how one could even get reliable numbers on it.
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I think we are forgetting the rush that occured during queen charlotte's war.
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No I remember that– and that was an extreme example. I'm just commenting on the general trend.
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As a new player, especially if you are an old one coming back, it's almost always easier and funnier starting in a realm at war since you have more in-game things that helps roleplay, more possibily fast promotions due conquests and there are usually more letters and roleplays in the air.
Also this terrible change that prevent you from having 3 active nobles from the start "forces" you to farm prestige to gain fame... It was better when it just required making your information public
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I think we are forgetting the rush that occured during queen charlotte's war.
OOC recruiting for BM and it was the only war at the time for Dwilight.
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So... a republic... instead of another theocracy. This will be interesting.
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So... a republic... instead of another theocracy. This will be interesting.
Agreed.
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A republic with the state (and only official religion) being Sanguis Astroism. Is it possible? Only time will tell!
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Astrum is the anvil that hangs over every choice they make.
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Personally, I *love* their name. I think it's a bit of poetic justice in return for not being a theocracy.
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Personally, I *love* their name. I think it's a bit of poetic justice in return for not being a theocracy.
I have plans to found a new realm entirely antagonistic to the Farronite Republic in all respects to start a rivalry that will last for the ages.
I'll call it the Celsius Empire.
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I have plans to found a new realm entirely antagonistic to the Farronite Republic in all respects to start a rivalry that will last for the ages.
I'll call it the Celsius Empire.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I have plans to found a new realm entirely antagonistic to the Farronite Republic in all respects to start a rivalry that will last for the ages.
I'll call it the Celsius Empire.
+1000
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Make sure you find a way to humorously misspell it. :D
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New easter egg: Auto da Fe's now have a 100% chance of success if there are 451 Farronites or more in the region.
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In other news, half the church is up in arms at the realm being a republic, while the other half is struggling to figure out why they're up in arms in the first place.
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In other news, half the church is up in arms at the realm being a republic, while the other half is struggling to figure out why they're up in arms in the first place.
You should all take up arms!
Against Aurvandil!
Seriously, you can be a theocratic republic as D'Hara as a republican monarchy. Who cares? :P
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In other news, half the church is up in arms at the realm being a republic, while the other half is struggling to figure out why they're up in arms in the first place.
I'm suprsed you didn't forsee some kind of controversy, as you know theocratic government is big in SA and you can't expect to un-theocratize (don't even think thats a word...) a major theocracy and have it pass by unnoticed.
Plus you gave to remember that "back in the day" before Mathurin went into retreat the Church used to have more control over theocracies than it does now. The last time Constantine was settled in a theocracy (barring his brief return during the crusade) something like this would have been unthinkable.
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I'm suprsed you didn't forsee some kind of controversy, as you know theocratic government is big in SA and you can't expect to un-theocratize (don't even think thats a word...) a major theocracy and have it pass by unnoticed.
Plus you gave to remember that "back in the day" before Mathurin went into retreat the Church used to have more control over theocracies than it does now. The last time Constantine was settled in a theocracy (barring his brief return during the crusade) something like this would have been unthinkable.
You see it as a un-theocratize but the side that's not against it doesn't see it that way, they see it as the theocracy got destroyed and a republic was put in its place which is what happened. If I get time to argue in game I will use the argument of "Will every follower of Sanguis Astroism be banned from making any realm but a theocracy in Golden Farrow ever? If so I disagree with the decision, if not how will you decide when enough time has passed? I believe that there should be encouraging to make theocracies, but not force. " Not IC, could they have made it a theocracy, then ran it like a republic? Sure, they could have but they didn't nod it's done with.
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And apparently the vulgarity button was used when I called King Turin a bloody fool... I'm pretty sure that's meant to be used if you speak like a peasant, with curses and that sort of thing. Ah well.
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And apparently the vulgarity button was used when I called King Turin a bloody fool... I'm pretty sure that's meant to be used if you speak like a peasant, with curses and that sort of thing. Ah well.
Depending where you say it, "bloody" can range from quite mild to a full blown swear word.
e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4789650.stm
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It would also seem to depend on if your career is in censorship or you're an average british/australian citizen...
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It would also seem to depend on if your career is in censorship or you're an average british/australian citizen...
That's true for all words.
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Depending where you say it, "bloody" can range from quite mild to a full blown swear word.
e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4789650.stm
That is true possibly but at the same time I would say it must be also considered partially on context. In my opinion it fit the message perfectly either way, I just hope it doesn't go through as vulgar as that was not his intentions. Also your link suggests the regulators have a different opinion than the general public of the UK.