BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: jaune on June 24, 2014, 12:26:15 PM
-
Good Day.
I noticed his account was locked and later heard on irc that he got permanent lock? And someone even pasted Titan reason for that.
Now i have known "Atanamir" for very long time and this shocks me greatly and i'm not that much convienced by the reasoning Titans gave.
I know Titan decisions are not for public discussion or open trials... but but... those reasons sounded so weird.
I dont remember anybody other than multicheaters got such punishment. I do know he is not the most easy or shy person to get along with. But permanent lock for player who has been playing 10 years this game. One of the greatest strategists, one who gets to be ruler or general time after time. He cant be that bad fellow if he leads for years armies and realms which have a LOT nobles. Not small realms ruled by bunch of close friends, but one of the biggest realms with biggest noble numbers.
If this opening is out of place and forbidden, i apologize... this all just shocks me and i'm eager to know whats behind all this?
Overall it would be nice to have announcement to every realm player is playing if his account gets locked.
/me wanders off shocked
-
Jaune,
i m so glad you made the first move because i was about to start a thread as well for the matter.
Many of you know me and Alex (aka Atanamir) are friends in real life and i don't mean two people who met once or two ,but actual friends.
It is a player that dedicated time and soul into this game for 10 years. Yes he is competitive, yes certain chars of his are power hungry and manipulating but he has also shown in many realms strong and loyal dedication
Rp wise i have fought valiantly near to his chars and i have dueled to the death another and won his head.
He is a very good player. He is a player that is either loved or hated and that happens to strong personalities.
Speaking as a player and an ex Magistrate, yes sometimes he becomes too stubborn and competitive but a permanent lock?
As Jaune said multi cheaters that were caught in action twice were not perm banned from the game.
I thought we were trying to expand the community, not weaken it.
I took a pause of over a year in the game and learned news only through my boyfriend and about his family. I came back to see the downfall of Darka and what i ve noticed so far in both irc and game is OOC crap.
People get accused as players because other players can't stand their chars. Well qq and run to your corner.That "butthurt" type of playing is not my style and i m sure it is none of the old players's style.
Every damn in game message comes with an OOC crap tag and people get dragged into ooc disputes over nothing. I am pretty sure this is the case as well for Alex only in this case it was most convenient because Alex had actually already one verdict on his neck.
You do not permanent lock people who love this game and community, people who have dedicated a pretty long time in this game while you leave the game to be driven by ooc crap.
As Evi i vouch for Alex.
-
I must say that I am angry at this decision. Its a tyrannical and ill motivated decision. I am aware that a certain developer has ill feelings towards Alex, but this is outrageous! You dont have to like everyone you play with, but people who bring the fun are our most valuable assets. Alex is a fun player. He allows others have fun and he is a great strategical player. Without him I would have quit few years ago. And seeing this tyrannical and ignorant decision of the Titans, I must reconsider if the fun is worth all the drama. I am very disappointed and am thinking that Battlemaster is destroying itself. There is a saying that all good things must end, lets not end battlemaster.
Also, if you lock the player, share the decision among all the realms he plays in!
I seriously ask the titans to reconsider. It is outrageous!
I will share some letters:
Titan Judgement (17 hours, 24 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
The Titans have issued a public verdict in the case against Alexandros Stavrou, the player of the of Umbar family. The text of their verdict follows:
Due to his long history of toxic behaviour, inability to separate IC from OOC, and paranoia resulting in his harassment of numerous players, his tendency to seek and hold prominent positions, and then use them to abuse other players who don't fit his rather specific standards of play, and his apparent refusal to mend his ways despite repeated warnings, Alexandros Stavrou, player of Atanamir and the family of Umbar, has been locked permanently.
Out-of-Character from Blythe Claireborne (14 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Atanamir was in the first kingdom I joined in BM.
I came to Perdan because he was general, and I liked his style. I still do. He has devoted the last ten year's of his game time to BM. For that, the Titans kick him. The Titans killed my in-game husband, my mentor, and my joy for the game. I am deleting entire account.
I thank you all for the faith you put in me and apologize for the hardship my decision may cause. You are a classy group of people. Thank you, Aroo and Reapers, for accepting me into this kingdom. Thank you, Nicoli, for being such as steadfast player, I like your style, my friend. Atanamir (Yes, I call Alex that even on Skype) sends you his best. He said he was sorry he failed me, but he did not. The game failed us.
I will delete once Blythe is inrealm, so that my absence does not cause bloodshed in Troyes.
Respectfully,
Susan Hutchinson
Noble has left (1 hour, 40 minutes ago)
The player of Saul has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
Noble has left (1 hour, 40 minutes ago)
The player of Blythe has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
A referendum will be started shortly to elect a new King.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/kVmQt8T.jpg)
-
Alex has been on very thin ice ever since he deliberately drove Dobromir's player out of the game, and nearly did the same to Deytheur.
Yes, he's been around nearly as long as I have. But when he becomes a cancer on the game, driving away more new players than he inspires old ones, it doesn't matter how long he's been here, just what he's doing now.
For some time now, Alex has clearly felt that it was his job to police the game for what he felt were people hurting the game. This is a noble motivation; however, he didn't do it in a particularly noble way. It started with Dobromir and Deytheur, whom he believed had begun a RL relationship. It doesn't matter whether it was true or not, because Alex didn't actually wait to find out whether it was true. He heard a rumour about it, and then he ran with it. He began spreading the news, not in the way it should have been spread—"Isn't it wonderful that BattleMaster can bring people together like this?"—but in the most twisted, paranoid, and petty way possible: "Well, you know this means that Eponllyn and Caligus will be locked in perma-alliance from now on, and you can never trust either of their characters not to tell everything to the other's characters anymore." He spread these rumours, and harassed both of them mercilessly, in-game and out, to the point that Dobromir's player left the game, and Deytheur's nearly did the same.
When he was brought up before the Magistrates for this egregious behaviour, he was all soft words and protestations of innocence. He only ever did it for the good of the game, and he would never, ever do such a thing again, etc. But his words rang false, and I'd seen this kind of thing from him before: when confronted with something that might make him look bad, he just plays the nice guy.
But it wasn't long before he was doing more of the same. Reporting suspected clans to the Titans is fine, but not when you send 4 or 5 reports within a week just to say, "Hey, why haven't you locked them all yet? I found them for you, that should be all the evidence you need!" (Not in those words, obviously, but that was the implication.) And then when the Titans didn't act fast enough to lock those he thought were clan members, he just made up bogus IC reasons to ban them from Perdan—and some of the reasons weren't even IC.
The most recent incident was the last straw. Miriam, whom I know both of you know from IRC, and I think it's absolutely clear she would never knowingly abuse a bug in any way, had a character move into a region where Alex thought she should have sparked a battle. He immediately took to the airwaves, broadcasting all across the EC that anyone who dared to move into that region now would be obviously exploiting a bug, and thus abusing the game (due to the fact that there should have been a battle, thus giving someone-or-other an advantage they shouldn't have had).
There are three major things wrong with this.
First is that while he did not explicitly say so, it was very clear that his intent was absolutely to threaten a Titan report against people, which is explicitly forbidden.
Second is that for the vast majority of bugs, such as a battle not occurring in a region and potentially giving an advantage to one side in a war, Tom's advice has always been to simply play through it. Only in the case of obvious loopholes, like if a method were discovered to buy a region without having to spend thousands of gold, or to drain your family gold down to nothing with one character in the space of a day, is the rule not to exploit the bugs. And yes, this is a subjective standard, but it's not an especially difficult one to follow.
Third, and most importantly, is that this was not even a bug. The situation at the time Miriam moved into the region was such that it was absolutely correct by the game's logic for there not to be a battle there.
In the end, though, the problem is that Alex believes himself to be not only above the law, but to be the enforcer of the law, when he is not a Titan, is not anyone appointed by any official in the game to uphold its rules, and does not even fully understand those rules in the first place. Not only that, but he has a long history of filing Titan reports against a wide variety of people in realms that oppose him in wars, for absurd and trivial things.
If Alexandros had shown the slightest sign that he understood that his behaviour was bad, and was willing to try to change it, we would have been willing to give him that chance.
He did not.
He kept it up, and showed not the slightest iota of remorse. When removed from rulership, he immediately took the General position, and abused it to continue his vigilante justice.
TL;DR: Alexandros was removed from the game because he has shown a long history of toxic behaviour that has driven a number of people we know about out of the game, and certainly many others we don't. He was given multiple warnings that what he was doing was bad, and showed no sign of actually understanding or believing that. So in order to prevent him from causing far, far more trouble than he's worth, he has been removed.
-
/me is even more shocked
-
I will comment more later... I understand the first part of the message, which was already dealt... but the actual banishment from the game reason just... well. For thinking there is a bug and telling not to abuse it?
I'd better keep my mouth shut...
-
I will comment more later... I understand the first part of the message, which was already dealt... but the actual banishment from the game reason just... well. For thinking there is a bug and telling not to abuse it?
I'd better keep my mouth shut...
To be quite clear, the banishment is not for this one issue. It is for the pattern of negative behaviour, of which this was simply the latest instance.
It's like hitting a rope a lot of times with a sword. The last cut is the one that severs the rope, but it's not the whole reason the rope broke.
-
All i see is that in 10 years of playing Perdan took him down because he was so into it as a realm.
I still believe it is a very bad decision and nothing i would expect from the Titans, it is obvious the root of the problem against others was that character and you could have bolted him out and keep the player.
He was a great player and you people make him look like a monster.
-
I still believe it is a very bad decision and nothing i would expect from the Titans, it is obvious the root of the problem against others was that character and you could have bolted him out and keep the player.
Except that all this stuff was OOC. That makes it the player.
Do you really think that if Atanamir the character was killed, he wouldn't just make a new character in Perdan within a week? And work his way up with it very quickly?
-
I kind of understand this.
But has he ever have problems outside East Continent? Would it been enough to banish him from there?
Cause somehow this seems to be still character based situation. There has not been such problems when he has been general of Darka for multiple times along the years. I have not heard problems from Minas Leon either?
Could it be that there is so much OOC poop going on EC that it drives people mad(including Atanamir?).
-
I don't know Atanamir in real life, but I know of his (many) antics towards other players in the past, and this ban does not surprise me at all. If anything it could have come sooner and saved us from more grief.
That people are supposedly leaving the game because of this ban is sad, but it goes to show that perhaps they did not know what it was like to not be in Atanamir's good graces.
-
That people are supposedly leaving the game because of this ban is sad, but it goes to show that perhaps they did not know what it was like to not be in Atanamir's good graces.
Pretty pathetic to say something like that Simon.
-
Moderator note: Keep it civil or the thread will get locked.
-
Except that all this stuff was OOC. That makes it the player.
Do you really think that if Atanamir the character was killed, he wouldn't just make a new character in Perdan within a week? And work his way up with it very quickly?
You could have forbid him to play there, or receive position. A titans decision that he should have just abide with.
Do remember it was the realm electing him though. Perdan does worshiped his chars, it was his many enemies who hated him :P
weird it kept happening only in Perdan isn't it? The Titans judged 10 years of gaming over a Realm and a char. That's all i know.
-
You could have forbid him to play there, or receive position. A titans decision that he should have just abide with.
Do remember it was the realm electing him though. Perdan does worshiped his chars, it was his many enemies who hated him :P
And I'm neither in Perdan, nor Perdan's enemy. I don't care about Perdan one way or another. What I care about is the game, and the health of the game.
I've seen this pattern a dozen times before: a well-liked player in a realm takes an action that the realm supports, but that is clearly against the rules. The player gets punished. The realm complains, and as soon as they can, they re-elect that player to whatever positions he held before.
In this case, there's less of a single clear rulebreaking, and more of a long history of negative behaviour, but that doesn't change the basic pattern. Popularity is not a defense against rulebreaking.
-
I will just say a few things about this case, and then I'm stepping out of this one, unless someone has specific, individual questions.
First, Tom's direction on this whole affair dates back to the Dobromir Magistrate's investigation. At that point in time, the decision was: "One more chance, and then he's gone."
That was three chances ago.
All cases were once again related to, among others: harassment of players, unfounded accusations of cheating and abuses, and IC actions based on OOC justifications. There were a few more that were borderline cases and were dismissed as being issues that should be handled IC. These are not a case of an OOC campaign by some particular person to smear and defame Alex. This was a long series of complaints from a wide range of other players.
One important thing to remember here is that this has nothing to do with IC behavior, RP, or actions taken by any character. Tom, the dev team, and the Titans understand that characters are allowed to be nasty, mean, plotting, scheming, self-righteous, downright evil, etc. (These are not specifically aimed Alexandros' characters, just a list of villain traits....) Mean and nasty characters are practically a requirement for the game to run properly. Every self-proclaimed hero needs a villain against which to struggle. This final judgment has to do solely with the actions of the player involved, and not the behavior of the characters.
In regards to this most recent event: This is not a matter of "... thinking there is a bug and telling not to abuse it ..." There are ways, and then there are ways. "Hey I think there's a bug, and we should be careful about it" is cool. But that's not what happened. What happened is this: "I am sure you noticed as well, but obviously you have decided to abuse this attack." (Yes, that is a direct quote from the very first message sent to the ruler's channel about it.) That's not a friendly reminder or notification of a possible bug. It's a blatant accusation of bug abuse. It's also completely wrong, and based on Alexandros' misunderstanding of game mechanics. The ensuing OOC argument that was started by this knee-jerk accusation of bug abuse just got worse.
The other events that lead to this final judgment are not secret. I'm sure that any of the players in Perdan can attest to the several OOC explosions, accusations, and a few more Titan's actions against Alexandros in the recent past, include position removal and temporary locks.
This final action was not taken without any warning. Alexandros was given at least two private warnings that if his behavior did not change, then this action would be taken. His continued behavior and refusal to change it is the direct cause of the actions taken against him. He had the opportunity to change his attitude and actions, and chose not to do so.
I personally understand that Alexandros did not act the way he did out of a desire to harm the game, or ruin the play experience of other people. The first two times this happened following the Dobromir case, I argued in his favor, believing that the circumstances and actions of other players were more at fault than Alexandros. However, the latest occurrence demonstrates a pattern of behavior that cannot be denied.
You can enjoy doing something very much, and still behave in such a way that causes harm.
As to whether or not Alexandros will be allowed to come back to the game, should he desire to do so at some time in the future, that is a matter that he will have to address personally with Anaris and Tom. Many people who have had their accounts locked in the past have been allowed to return by starting a new account.
-
I'm glad we got some more news on the decision yet i find it harsh to get a permanent lock. Would a lock for 30 days be more off a warning. I think in the case of a permanent lock there should always be an explanation about such decision,no ? It might have reconcidered the deleted player of the King of Perdan to actually deleting on old account.
My memory isn't that good but when was the player locked for a few days? I've noticed the removal of position but not of a short lock.
-
I'm glad we got some more news on the decision yet i find it harsh to get a permanent lock. Would a lock for 30 days be more off a warning. I think in the case of a permanent lock there should always be an explanation about such decision,no ? It might have reconcidered the deleted player of the King of Perdan to actually deleting on old account.
My memory isn't that good but when was the player locked for a few days? I've noticed the removal of position but not of a short lock.
He was locked for 3 days about a month ago.
He was also given a warning, and told that it would be his final warning.
-
My memory isn't that good but when was the player locked for a few days? I've noticed the removal of position but not of a short lock.
I don't really know off-hand. I could look up the exact dates, if it were relevant. It would have been at the same time as the position removals.
-
He was removed from all positions and was told not to become the ruler again for 14 days.
I believe titans expected him to know what he did wrong and refrain himself for awhile by taking it easy but instead as soon as he got off the lock, he tried to go around the punishment by getting himself appointed as general and did exactly the same thing he did the last time, threatening people yet again. Obviously he didn't learn his lessons from soft warnings. I think this permanent lock was a good decision from the titans showing him they are not joking around.
-
Out-of-Character from Gurgulithras Tzirimuschul (29 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (42 recipients)
I used to play BM a long time ago. Some ancient players may remember Shadow Thief in Oligarch and Perdan.
I quit because of massive OOC crap like this. I think I will do the same now.
Dennis B.
Noble has left (27 minutes ago)
The player of Gurgulithras has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
-
if its not about Perdan then please remove his characters from other realms too! I have a locked out General, kind of idiotic.
-
if its not about Perdan then please remove his characters from other realms too! I have a locked out General, kind of idiotic.
Since we know about the permanent lock, I think an OOC ban to free the position before the inactivity kicks the character would not be abuse. You may want to run this by a dev before to make sure but it seems like the best technical solution to me.
-
Since we know about the permanent lock, I think an OOC ban to free the position before the inactivity kicks the character would not be abuse. You may want to run this by a dev before to make sure but it seems like the best technical solution to me.
The OOC ban has been disabled.
I'm working on a little script to pause all the characters of a locked player. I should have it ready to fire within the hour, if all goes well.
-
TItans, read the ooc messages in Perdan please.
-
Glad Evi, Jaune and Nigel here,
I'm not one to just defend anyone and I know Alex(Umbar) actions were in fact a out of hand we players did attempt to settle him. I at least. He's one of the few reasons I returned after well hibernating. We're his issues outside of EI? I never saw them and in fact I don't think anyone else did to my knowledge though it is limited.
I do know Tom and Tim don't pass such judgement so easily but to Umbar I'm surprised. He's been around since we were young and he was just a sprite then. Now after 10 years to see him go mm. Do by and him had issue but to be honest it was not all one of their faults.
I'm just shocked geez the dudes half the reason EI is even still entertaining and now Perdan players inspiration taken from them by OOC means... guess that'll wrap things up.
*Looks at the glacier, as it keeps moving north to swallow the continent*
-
I am sure many people enjoyed playing with him. But people who played against him well I doubt they would say the same thing. It would have been nice if he could keep things all IC but he just kept taking things OoCly. I think he took the game way too seriously. It is always sad to see players go especially the old ones.
-
It is obvious that this won't change a thing to the Titans's decision since they had a white paper signed from Tom for it.It is after all his game and we happen to play it so i respect it.
When having though a game you play by yourself the rules can be as strict, when playing among other people and trying to create aside the game a strong community you cannot underestimate the human factor.
We are grown upw playing a game that involves strategy and occasionally role play.It is a competitive game and the role playing is there to light it up but there are certain black holes in this game, certain continents and realms that constantly" throw up" issues of ooc, multi cheating, whining and the constant need of titans to view upon them. It is EC.It is a fact. I actually voted for EC to sink :P
Alex was a passionate player since day one. 10 years and none of it ever changed, he was playing this game as he was playing it back then, always thirsty for something. I remember him pissing people off in many realms, he surely pissed off 3 of my chars so far but he was always doing it in game, he was excellent in strategy and active enough to make things happen.
I ve never saw him play as enthusiastically as he was playing in Perdan in any other realm, ever. Darka had a 3 front war for example and he couldn't care less and he was General there too.Yes he was addicted to Perdan.
When you judge an old player like him, that never paused, never stopped playing the game and realize that all this hate comes from one continent and are made for the same char well you notice the "disease" and cut it right off :P You don't just command kill the player
For future reference that is my opinion and i believe i do well in expressing it since this is an irreversible and fatal decision for any player and i hate to see people leave the game for ever.
-
I am sure many people enjoyed playing with him. But people who played against him well I doubt they would say the same thing.
Why, we actually exchanged some nice threats with him when we were fighting in Bescanon, was fun.
While his recent OOC message was both insulting and confusing, I am sad that he leaves - Atanamir was an interesting enemy.
(My char is general of Eponllyn)
-
Just because someone in game asked me (even though it has completely no use) I shall post my complaint here:
Out-of-Character from Wilhelm Von Lunkhofen (just sent)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (41 recipients)
It's not like voicing it on the forum is going to change this a bit. They will be simply covering for each other therefore my participation on the forum will be useless and since it's an out of character discussion I feel this out of character tag quite sufficient.
This game would be much better off without Titans or at least Titans who had a minimum of empathetical skill. I for instance have never seen any Titan response starting with "I understand how you might feel" and all I have seen are blunt responses. In fact when you complain about them they are attracted to you like honey does to bees and respond instantly, but when you have a question they take a week to respond and give a response that makes you feel like they think your an idiot.
In fact I just now received a threat of the Titans instead of the slightest bit of understanding. Which proves my entire point.
-
Erik and Atanamir developed a good rivalry. I'm sure many people love to play with him and against him, however, and while I have nothing personal against the player, my short time as Ruler of Sirion was awful, managing the situation between Atanamir and Dobromir, both IC and OOC.
He uses too much OOC when things do not work as he wants or how he feels ideal. And when he tries to impose his vision to all others, well, it's good to take a breath and reconsider your behavior. It's just a game, not a reason to go nuts or annoy/insult everyone when things are not exactly as you want.
I will miss to play with him like I miss to play with Ryu and even with Dobromir (although our approach has been very short). Anyway, at some point they must reconsider a behavior or another.
***
Doesn't mean I appreciate the Titans.
-
It's not like voicing it on the forum is going to change this a bit. They will be simply covering for each other therefore my participation on the forum will be useless and since it's an out of character discussion I feel this out of character tag quite sufficient.
"Covering for each other" in what way? In that we who speak for the Titans agree with the decision that was made, and provide reasons for it?
Or are you one of those that believes that there is an actual conspiracy on the part of the game's administrators to ruin the fun of certain groups within the game?
This game would be much better off without Titans or at least Titans who had a minimum of empathetical skill. I for instance have never seen any Titan response starting with "I understand how you might feel" and all I have seen are blunt responses.
I do understand how you might feel. I understand how frustrating it can be to see someone who you think is a great player, who you don't feel has done anything wrong, get punished in the harshest way possible in this game. However, that doesn't mean for a second that I'm going to stop from punishing him, because he's not punished for you. He's punished for the many, many people he has harassed, threatened, and driven away with his attitude over the years.
I apologize if the official announcements of the Titans come off as sounding cold and impersonal, but it's because that's what they are: official announcements. The Titans aren't there to be your best buddies, they're there to be the scary people you don't want to cross, who you know you can go to when someone is screwing around with you in an OOC manner or violating your Inalienable Rights.
In fact when you complain about them they are attracted to you like honey does to bees and respond instantly, but when you have a question they take a week to respond and give a response that makes you feel like they think your an idiot.
Well, I don't know specifically what you're referring to with that last, but a) right now, the Titans are on high alert, since we all knew locking Atanamir would create a fair amount of upset, and b) if you complain about the Titans in a Titan report, it's obviously not a valid Titan report, and easy to just reject. A report that either is valid, and needs investigation, or might be valid, but needs investigation and/or discussion, takes time to deal with.
In fact I just now received a threat of the Titans instead of the slightest bit of understanding. Which proves my entire point.
I know exactly what you received, and it was not a threat, it was a warning. You got warned because you posted two obviously invalid Titan reports, which right there is an abuse of the system, both of which were directly insulting to the Titans, and could quite fairly be said to constitute harassment. Think about it this way: You just called 911 multiple times to tell the operators that they're a bunch of idiots, and now you're wondering why you're being told you could be arrested if you keep it up.
-
Blatantly insulting posts and their followups have been removed. Please refrain from personal attacks on other players.
-
"Covering for each other" in what way? In that we who speak for the Titans agree with the decision that was made, and provide reasons for it?
Or are you one of those that believes that there is an actual conspiracy on the part of the game's administrators to ruin the fun of certain groups within the game?
Yes lets make me one that believes in a conspiracy, just make me look like a senile person, perhaps it aids in your argumentation?
I do understand how you might feel. I understand how frustrating it can be to see someone who you think is a great player, who you don't feel has done anything wrong, get punished in the harshest way possible in this game. However, that doesn't mean for a second that I'm going to stop from punishing him, because he's not punished for you. He's punished for the many, many people he has harassed, threatened, and driven away with his attitude over the years.
I don't care about the Atanamir situation at all. I'm using this opportunity to complain about the Titans impersonal behavior.
I apologize if the official announcements of the Titans come off as sounding cold and impersonal, but it's because that's what they are: official announcements. The Titans aren't there to be your best buddies, they're there to be the scary people you don't want to cross, who you know you can go to when someone is screwing around with you in an OOC manner or violating your Inalienable Rights.
Thats where there is a significant error in your words. They actually should be your best buddies. They should have feeling for the situation. Effectiveness is measured by Quality times Acceptation. I have no doubt your Quality is perfect, but your Acceptation is severely lacking and thus your effectiveness is zero. In fact perhaps this entire Atanamir situation would have been averted if you Titans did have any empathy.
Well, I don't know specifically what you're referring to with that last, but a) right now, the Titans are on high alert, since we all knew locking Atanamir would create a fair amount of upset, and b) if you complain about the Titans in a Titan report, it's obviously not a valid Titan report, and easy to just reject. A report that either is valid, and needs investigation, or might be valid, but needs investigation and/or discussion, takes time to deal with.
There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there? In fact we do not even know who they are, how competent they are and if they are doing their job properly. Indeed I do get very good impressions how they handle game situations, which is not very good.
I know exactly what you received, and it was not a threat, it was a warning. You got warned because you posted two obviously invalid Titan reports, which right there is an abuse of the system, both of which were directly insulting to the Titans, and could quite fairly be said to constitute harassment. Think about it this way: You just called 911 multiple times to tell the operators that they're a bunch of idiots, and now you're wondering why you're being told you could be arrested if you keep it up.
If I where in your position I would thank the person for the feedback and accepted. But then again, you do not want to hear feedback since you do not want to improve yourself. If you really think the Titan system should be a 911-like system then this game will result in an inevitable close down. You should be using it to improve the gameplay atmosphere, another think in which your entirely lacking. Instead of giving developers access to this kind of system I would suggest giving people with people's skills access to this system. It would be FAR more effective.
-
Are you serious? Titans should be their best buddies? Why would anyone take Titans serious then? Also, they shouldn't let personal feelings get in the way of their judgement. If they were buddies with everyone, who's going to punish people for violating the social contract.
Everyone signed the social contract before joining the game. If you cross that you are not upholding your ending of bargain. Why should they care when you are not doing your 'part' of the deal?
If you want to complain about titans, take it to Tom or Tim as they are in charge of the titans. Also, letting everyone know who the titans are would lead to disasters. Think about it this way. You know there is a titan in your realm and he is like the best buddy like you want him to be and you know you can sway him to what you believe in whenever someone files a report against you or your realm. Can you really trust him to be impartial? The titans should be impartial about their decisions. They can't just favor whoever they like.
I am not sure what feedbacks you sent to the titans but report to the titans isn't the button you use for giving feedbacks....
-
Are you serious? Titans should be their best buddies? Why would anyone take Titans serious then? Also, they shouldn't let personal feelings get in the way of their judgement. If they were buddies with everyone, who's going to punish people for violating the social contract.
Yes I am serious. If they are buddies (and thus respected) by everyone there wouldn't be an issue. A thing you might find difficult to understand, but thats probably because you have never seen someone working on relationships in our current society.
-
There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there?
You know, because you have been told several times, that the only acceptable method to complain about a Titan's decision, or about the Titans themselves, is via email to tom@battlemaster.org. This is the same avenue of appeal that every player has.
-
Yes lets make me one that believes in a conspiracy, just make me look like a senile person, perhaps it aids in your argumentation?
Since there are players who have expressed that exact belief, it wasn't an attempt to paint you as senile, but rather an honest question. If you had answered in the affirmative, it is true that I would have discounted what you said a lot more, however.
Thats where there is a significant error in your words. They actually should be your best buddies.
That's your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled, but I don't share it.
They should have feeling for the situation. Effectiveness is measured by Quality times Acceptation. I have no doubt your Quality is perfect, but your Acceptation is severely lacking and thus your effectiveness is zero. In fact perhaps this entire Atanamir situation would have been averted if you Titans did have any empathy.
I'm not sure where you get that formula, it's not one I recognize.
As for empathy, I can assure you that the Titans have plenty of it. There is actually a pretty good mix in there right now, with some who would prefer to just press the "lightning bolt" button whenever someone steps out of line, and others who would prefer to give lots of gentle warnings and reminders of the rules, and rarely remove people from positions or take other punitive action.
I think what you are missing is that the Titans need to empathize not just with those being reported, but with those who are reporting them—people who feel that their experience of the game is being damaged, either through violations of the Inalienable Rights or Social Contract, multicheaters, or situations like the most recent one with Atanamir. It sounds like you would have the Titans think mainly of the people they punish, and ignore the people being wronged by other players, which we will not do.
There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there?
There is, and you know it perfectly well. You can email Tom, and state your case to him.
In fact we do not even know who they are, how competent they are and if they are doing their job properly.
No, you do not get to know who they are, because they are players, too, and they deserve to be able to play the game without people like you harassing them constantly about this decision or that.
Instead, you have to trust the creator of the game and his very small, volunteer support staff (led by me) to keep them honest and make sure that they are doing their jobs.
If I where in your position I would thank the person for the feedback and accepted. But then again, you do not want to hear feedback since you do not want to improve yourself.
If it had been constructive criticism, that is exactly what I would have done (though I would also have told you that you weren't going about it in the right way). It was not constructive criticism. It was blatant, unvarnished insult. That's not useful feedback, and cannot help to improve anyone.
If you really think the Titan system should be a 911-like system then this game will result in an inevitable close down. You should be using it to improve the gameplay atmosphere, another think in which your entirely lacking.
How, exactly, would you suggest doing that?
It sounds to me like you expect the Titans to be something that they were never intended to be. They were created in about 2005 as a group of players who could help Tom to deal with players who broke the rules, so that he didn't have to do it all on his own. That was their specific mandate: to punish breaches of the Inalienable Rights and the Social Contract. Not to improve the atmosphere or anything along those lines.
To be clear, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to have a group of players tasked with trying to improve the atmosphere in the game. I've seen a lot of times where the atmosphere definitely leaves a lot to be desired. But that's not the Titans' job, so complaining that they're not doing it is somewhat out of place.
Instead of giving developers access to this kind of system I would suggest giving people with people's skills access to this system. It would be FAR more effective.
You seem to have an image of "developers" as pimply-faced geeks with absolutely no social skills who sit in basements all day long and write code, never talking to a human being.
I can assure you (though you may not believe me) that that's far from the case.
To be sure, none of us are big party people (at least, that I know of!), but that doesn't mean that we're unqualified to do the jobs of Titans. Again, I think you're misunderstanding the fundamental nature of what the Titans are meant to be.
Where we need people with people skills is as community managers, not Titans.
-
There is, and you know it perfectly well. You can email Tom, and state your case to him.
Oh don't give me the email Tom look. You as well as I do is that hes not going to say anything different. He has personal interests to keep you people happy, while he has zero interest to see me happy or rather he wouldn't even care if I disappeared from this game.
If it had been constructive criticism, that is exactly what I would have done (though I would also have told you that you weren't going about it in the right way). It was not constructive criticism. It was blatant, unvarnished insult. That's not useful feedback, and cannot help to improve anyone.
Your indeed correct. I suggest you take some time to evaluate why it happened. Instead of trying to point me to the act itself and absolve yourself of any guilt.
It sounds to me like you expect the Titans to be something that they were never intended to be. They were created in about 2005 as a group of players who could help Tom to deal with players who broke the rules, so that he didn't have to do it all on his own. That was their specific mandate: to punish breaches of the Inalienable Rights and the Social Contract. Not to improve the atmosphere or anything along those lines.
I expect the Titans to evolve. Obviously only testing the rules is by far from sufficient currently. If you truly want this game to survive you need to learn to handle conflicts not to put a judgment on them. A thing that is simply not there within the standard package of the regular developer. Those who would master these two skills would be too busy in their lives to spend time at this game in the first place.
Where we need people with people skills is as community managers, not Titans.
A classical but futile thought. These where my final words on this subject, If you chose to ignore my words then so be it. It will not be my loss if this game dies a slow death due to continuous OOC and IC conflicts which the Titans do not consider their responsibility to manage. One day I will just disappear in animosity before this drama will happen.
-
Oh don't give me the email Tom look. You as well as I do is that hes not going to say anything different. He has personal interests to keep you people happy, while he has zero interest to see me happy or rather he wouldn't even care if I disappeared from this game.
If you've already decided that nothing will be changed, then why are you even doing any of this?
Furthermore, Tom's first interest in the game is the health of the game as a whole. Not whether I'm happy, or you're happy, or any other individual player is happy. He also knows perfectly well that if he makes a decision I don't agree with, I may argue with him, but I'll do it. I've done it before, many times.
Your indeed correct. I guess you take some time to evaluate why it happened. Instead of trying to point me to the act itself and absolve yourself of any guilt.
Yeah, no. You don't get to fling insults around, then tell me I need to "evaluate" why you can't keep a rein on your temper and respond rationally, rather than flying off the handle.
If you want something to change, then you need to come to us with a clear, calm, reasonable explanation of a) what you think the problem is, b) why you think it's a problem for the game as a whole, and c) what you think the best solution would be.
I expect the Titans to evolve. Obviously only testing the rules is by far from sufficient currently. If you truly want this game to survive you need to learn to handle conflicts not to put a judgment on them.
So you think what we need is some kind of mediation system? How do you think something like that should work? Especially in the cases where one of the parties involved is a relatively new player, who understand their rights, but doesn't want to be marginalized in retaliation for reporting their General for ordering them to recruit infantry instead of archers?
This is the reason the entire Titan system is anonymous, Paradigm. It is designed to protect players in positions of weakness from being exploited and abused by players in positions of strength. Any new system or evolution of the system that you propose must keep that in mind.
A thing that is simply not there within the standard package of the regular developer. Those who would master these two skills would be too busy in their lives to spend time at this game in the first place.
Aaand we're back to being insulting again. You really need to take a hard look at your stereotypes, Paradigm.
I've done mediation in the past, and I've been pretty good at it. You're right that I don't do it a lot because it's time-consuming, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable just because I'm a "developer."
A classical but futile thought. These where my final words on this subject, If you chose to ignore my words then so be it. It will not be my loss if this game dies a slow death due to continuous OOC and IC conflicts which the Titans do not consider their responsibility to manage. One day I will just disappear in animosity before this drama will happen.
Well, you came back once. If you do disappear in a burst of frustration, it won't surprise me to see you back here again in another year or two.
And frankly, it's people who react the way you do that cause some of the worst problems with the atmosphere in the game. Instead of trying to give constructive criticism, your first response is to throw insults. When the Titans do something that you don't like, you immediately start calling them vile names in in-game OOC messages. You loudly proclaim that posting on the forums won't do any good, because "they'll be covering for each other."
All of this is divisive behaviour. You want to make a positive difference, Paradigm? Start with yourself. Try to find ways to unite the players—all the players, including Titans, devs, and people on the other side in whatever war you happen to be fighting right now—rather than divide them. If you don't like a decision, try to understand it before declaring that it's stupid, and the people who made it must be stupid.
I understand why you react the way you do. I understand the frustration. I really do. But I have to think of more than just my realm, or my friends. I have to think of the game as a whole, and that is why people like Atanamir cannot be allowed to remain in the game. It would be great if the Titans really could be everyone's friends, and everyone would respect them and the decisions they take. But not everyone is going to be like that. There will always be people who, when they or one of their friends is punished for a blatant violation of the IRs, decides that the Titans are the enemy, simply because the Titans acted against someone they liked.
This will also by my last reply to you, whether or not you post another message here, unless you really want to have a serious, sensible discussion about the idea of some sort of mediation or atmosphere-improvement group.
-
Constructive critism :
In the Case of Atanamir, I would like to have seen more lightning bolts ( when was the last time that was used on EI? ) and more and longer locks. Also a more detailed and to the point reasoning from the Titans. I never knew about the many OOC argues or that of Drobomir. It might give me a reason to help him or caution him. Now I lose a great player, and 2 other fine players that left the game in the last hours, without me able to do something about it.
-
Constructive critism :
In the Case of Atanamir, I would like to have seen more lightning bolts ( when was the last time that was used on EI? ) and more and longer locks. Also a more detailed and to the point reasoning from the Titans. I never knew about the many OOC argues or that of Drobomir. It might give me a reason to help him or caution him. Now I lose a great player, and 2 other fine players that left the game in the last hours, without me able to do something about it.
+1
-
The thing is, the player of Atanamir was warned multiple times before this perma lock happened. His account was locked for a couple of days two months or so back, probably for the same reason the perma lock happened. So the Titans did give him opportunity to mend his ways, since he continued that behavior so they can't be blamed for locking him. he brought this upon himself.
-
that might be true but i never knew the real reasoning behind the short lock. Not that it piled up on ooc that I never saw. If you have a lock for a longer time the realmmembers might explain why and we as players could help. A short lock just looks like a slap on the wrist and since he's passionate about the game I blamed it on that.
-
Two off-topic things:
The OOC ban has been disabled.
Oh thank you. I knew this was on the list, but it had been sitting there as evil bait for so long.
*Looks at the glacier, as it keeps moving north to swallow the continent*
Glaciers stopped already. Unless you're talking about a restart?
Back on-topic:
I've now paused my character in Perdan not because I support Atanamir, but because the rest of the realm seems so utterly devoted to the character / player (I can't tell which) that it's now stifled with OOC chatter. I'm okay with disagreement; I can see both sides of this issue... what I'm not okay with is the apparent lack of respect for the Titan process. If you don't believe they seriously consider issues, why would you even play the game? Hopefully, it's just a quick emotional response and Perdan is willing to finally see some new blood.
-
what I'm not okay with is the apparent lack of respect for the Titan process. If you don't believe they seriously consider issues, why would you even play the game?
The Titans have pretty much always had a respect/credibility problem from a part of the player base(partly why we had the magistrate experiment where things were hashed out in public, I think). They've made questionable decisions at times and people remember those. They don't remember the right decisions, but they remember the rejected cases where they felt slighted by another player. And when they do make a decision, for most players, all they get to see are the public warnings which often times leave you asking "what the heck happened to deserve that?". Then people will disagree with it because they don't know the full story and end up thinking the Titans don't know left from right.
That's about how it works from my experience. In all of that, the Titans aren't completely blameless.
Also, doesn't help that account locks etc. have only been announced to a single realm and not all the realms of the player. So people have ended up in situations where they find out their general has been locked out of the game and left wondering "WTF?"
-
The Titans have pretty much always had a respect/credibility problem from a part of the player base(partly why we had the magistrate experiment where things were hashed out in public, I think). They've made questionable decisions at times and people remember those. They don't remember the right decisions, but they remember the rejected cases where they felt slighted by another player. And when they do make a decision, for most players, all they get to see are the public warnings which often times leave you asking "what the heck happened to deserve that?". Then people will disagree with it because they don't know the full story and end up thinking the Titans don't know left from right.
That's about how it works from my experience. In all of that, the Titans aren't completely blameless.
Also, doesn't help that account locks etc. have only been announced to a single realm and not all the realms of the player. So people have ended up in situations where they find out their general has been locked out of the game and left wondering "WTF?"
+1
I did find it a little strange not to see announcements go out to other realms.
-
Knowing Atanamir solely from his posts on the forums, I am not surprised at this decision.
-
I ve been playing this game for too long to know if a decision is good or bad for the game. This is really bad. One after the other, players of Perdan exit the game. This is very bad for the game. Sirion dudes I am sure that are disappointed by that event. Everyone wants capable enemies, so he can better shine.
I also know the player of Atanamir and be in position to know that he cares about two things: Perdan his realm to win all battles, and that the game develops, expands.
To exile a player is a behavior we should find in far fetched political systems...but again...who. Said that a dictatorship does not exist in BM?
Dionyssis Klavdianos
Aka Nightmare Aroo of Perdan
-
Well if he cared so much for the game maybe he should have cared for others who play against him as well.
If something is precious to you, maybe there are things that are precious to other people as well?
P.S: Telling other realms about of Umber lock is a good idea so people don't wonder what happened.
-
I also know the player of Atanamir and be in position to know that he cares about two things: Perdan his realm to win all battles, and that the game develops, expands.
And the problem is that he cares about them in that order.
-
Constructive critism :
In the Case of Atanamir, I would like to have seen more lightning bolts ( when was the last time that was used on EI? ) and more and longer locks. Also a more detailed and to the point reasoning from the Titans. I never knew about the many OOC argues or that of Drobomir. It might give me a reason to help him or caution him. Now I lose a great player, and 2 other fine players that left the game in the last hours, without me able to do something about it.
+1
-
One thing Anaris and I have thought for a long time is that there should be some kind of case log or case summary for some "high profile" kind of Titans cases. This would not only let people know what has happened, but also provide some kind of precedent for future reference. Perhaps this would be a good time to start.
Also the idea to post lock notifications to all of a player's realms might be good, or maybe not. The idea is not to ostracize or shame a player.
-
Just so you know Alex cared about this Game and the Players before Perdan, he just had a Deep Passion for EI/EC.
Some of the older players might remember Alex in positive ways when he played but he was probably one of the best Battlemaster players to play with because he went out of his way to mentor/teach, roleplay and cause strife to keep this game interesting (few know how to still do that). If the decision was reversed it would be better, but the damage is done I believe and it is a wound that is truly deep.
I drink to you Umbar, my Corasir Pirate brother may your sails catch the wind.
Perdan loses:
Noble has left (17 hours, 53 minutes ago)
The player of Saul has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
Noble has left (10 hours, 46 minutes ago)
The player of Gurgulithras has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
Lord Pauses (7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Sean Shaffer, the player of Lodu Eirikr, has paused her for an indefinite period.
Knight Pauses (5 hours, 47 minutes ago) (Wouter paused all his Character on all Islands)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Wouter Eitjes, the player of Pablo D`Este, has paused him for an indefinite period.
-
May want to point out that at least one of those pauses was because the player got sick of all the OOC complaining against the Titans.
-
I know you guys in Perdan loved him (and he wasn't banned because Perdan was a dictatorship by the way) but for everyone of you there there is someone else who he has harassed, sometimes to the point of driving them away. Apparently he was warned several times and didn't change so for those who wanted him to be bolted and given another chance, I guess he ran out of chances already. It's not ok to just overlook the bad he did because of some good he did. Only the Titans have seen every message and every detail relating the case so trying to tell them that they missed something or didn't consider something else is just pointless when it's likely that they know more than you already.
But I agree, it does seem a bit silly not to tell other realms he played in what happened in about as big a decision as this.
-
Well if he cared so much for the game maybe he should have cared for others who play against him as well.
Sadly, there are very few players I've encountered in the entire game who care much for the people they play against. There are people who say they care, but the actions rarely follow through.
-
One thing Anaris and I have thought for a long time is that there should be some kind of case log or case summary for some "high profile" kind of Titans cases. This would not only let people know what has happened, but also provide some kind of precedent for future reference. Perhaps this would be a good time to start.
Yes! There were disadvantages to the Magistrate system, but this was a huge advantage.
-
Oh for gods sake, for all the people who are whining about Atanamir getting his account lock, please, PLEASE, go look in the courthouse part of the forums. There were several cases where he attempted to harass and drive away players.
I personally have a cousin who played in Perdan, and I have long found that realm to be in denial about anything wrong its players do. This has been a LOOOONG time coming, and I'm personally glad. I'm willing to bet that most of the people who are angry are only angry because their realm is suffering a setback, not because a player has been perma-locked.
-
I personally have a cousin who played in Perdan, and I have long found that realm to be in denial about anything wrong its players do.
I have seen this pattern, too—it's not unique to Perdan, but Perdan has shown it pretty strongly in the past.
This is, indeed, part of the problem, and not an insignificant part. Unfortunately, in my experience, any of the direct methods one could use to attempt to reduce this attitude within the realm are much more likely to make it worse than better.
So if anyone has any good suggestions as to how to address this sort of attitude, in Perdan or any other realm, I'm wide open...
-
There is a culture that has developed that any time something happens that you don't like, the instant reaction is to attribute it to bug abuse, or misuse of game mechanics by people on the other side. The longer a particular conflict goes on, the more likely this is to happen. It may have always been there, but IMO it seems to have gotten stronger over the years.
I've seen this in just in the past couple weeks on EC, with players in both the northern and southern realms blaming the other side is abusing bugs. People in the north say the southerners are abusing the looting mechanics by looting in 2 hour increments, while people in the south say the northerners are abusing a no-battle bug by moving *one unit* into a region the turn before a big battle in order to make sure everyone gets there. It doesn't even have to be a bug, either. Just a clever way of using a game mechanic is attributed to "abuse of mechanics". f.ex. the recent forum thread about how people who protest every turn are abusing the protest mechanics.
Perhaps the reason is that the game is balkanized into small groups of people who's only interaction is constant conflict. You develop an inherent hostility toward "the enemy". This attitude is reinforce by playing with the same players in realms on different islands. Thus you tend to be on the same side as Alice on every island, and fighting against Bob on every island. For example, there was always a strong correlation between players in Darka on AT and in Perdan on BT.
It promotes an "us vs. them" mentality, I think. An idea that the other side will use any method that it takes to win. Both sides get ingrained in this way of thinking. When the popular Sirion general Hinamoto got a public warning, then flipped out and ragequit, the outrage in Sirion was that "They are using OOC tactics to get us! They are using the Titans to win!". And now the general of Perdan gets locked and the outrage in Perdan is essentially the same thing: "They will do anything they have to do to win, even if they have to get the Titans to do their dirty work!" Both sides scream "They're out to get us!" But no one knows who this "they" is.
IMO, this is a significant problem. How do we prevent this attitude from settling in and perpetuating itself?
-
I personally have a cousin who played in Perdan, and I have long found that realm to be in denial about anything wrong its players do.
Including sacrificing other realms so that they might survive. I feel, at least on an OOC level, he played to win and one of the core concepts of BM is you cannot out-and-out win. Certainly in the halls of the Church of Humanity if anything was said against a Perdanese priest or follower he'd tell you to STFU.
Anyway, I don't have any ideas for how to reduce this "group mentality" problem because my only idea would actually prohibit the idea of playing with one's friends - specifically, if you try to join a realm that has several other players you already play with, something would block it.
-
Broadly (and at the risk of stating the obvious), I would say that the way to get players to stop viewing other players as The Enemy is to get them to either work or play together at something.
Tournaments were meant to work toward this goal, but I'm skeptical that they could ever have either prevented or reversed the kind of attitude we're seeing today, and from what I've seen, they've also become much less common over the years. I suspect that this is a symptom of the same thing: people don't want to throw a tournament when there's a risk that The Enemy might get the prize money, not to mention the danger of distracting your own men from the war effort.
The next obvious answer (to me, at least) is to give them all a common enemy they need to fight against. Unfortunately, given the way BT invasions have gone in the past, I don't have any confidence that this would actually get them to either work together during the invasion, or see each other more kindly afterwards.
I suppose it might be possible to create another island like the War Island, that gives a free character slot to everyone, and lump all the players there into one big player realm, fighting against the impossibly strong forces of the Netherworld, or some other PvE scenario. However, I'm not sure how well that would work, either, even ignoring for the moment the feasibility of it from a development perspective.
I think the ideal thing would be to have some kind of big BattleMaster get-together, where everyone can actually meet the players on the other side, and learn to see them as real people. I know small events of this nature have happened in the past, but I'm skeptical that one could be organized that's large enough to ensure that it reaches enough of the prominent players on opposite sides of these entrenched conflicts.
More ideas are welcome. And if someone wants to try to persuade me that any of these ideas I'm rejecting are more workable than I think, I'm willing to consider it, too ;D
-
May want to point out that at least one of those pauses was because the player got sick of all the OOC complaining against the Titans.
Thanks, always saving me some words.
-
Meeting players in person do change a lot I think. I've met a few players living in my city. Gotta say talking about battlemaster in RL is pretty good.
-
Broadly (and at the risk of stating the obvious), I would say that the way to get players to stop viewing other players as The Enemy is to get them to either work or play together at something.
Tournaments were meant to work toward this goal, but I'm skeptical that they could ever have either prevented or reversed the kind of attitude we're seeing today, and from what I've seen, they've also become much less common over the years. I suspect that this is a symptom of the same thing: people don't want to throw a tournament when there's a risk that The Enemy might get the prize money, not to mention the danger of distracting your own men from the war effort.
The next obvious answer (to me, at least) is to give them all a common enemy they need to fight against. Unfortunately, given the way BT invasions have gone in the past, I don't have any confidence that this would actually get them to either work together during the invasion, or see each other more kindly afterwards.
I suppose it might be possible to create another island like the War Island, that gives a free character slot to everyone, and lump all the players there into one big player realm, fighting against the impossibly strong forces of the Netherworld, or some other PvE scenario. However, I'm not sure how well that would work, either, even ignoring for the moment the feasibility of it from a development perspective.
I think the ideal thing would be to have some kind of big BattleMaster get-together, where everyone can actually meet the players on the other side, and learn to see them as real people. I know small events of this nature have happened in the past, but I'm skeptical that one could be organized that's large enough to ensure that it reaches enough of the prominent players on opposite sides of these entrenched conflicts.
More ideas are welcome. And if someone wants to try to persuade me that any of these ideas I'm rejecting are more workable than I think, I'm willing to consider it, too ;D
Battlemaster Con 14!
Do I get a booth? And a personal security detail? I feel like, despite my forum name, the only thing getting stabbed would be me :p
-
Indeed. The root of the problem is the "us vs them" mentality that develops between players who have successfully teamed up and, very often, came out against all odds. They have faced great adversity, learning that what they need to do is bound together as a close team, and then literally nothing or no one can stop them, in game. It's no surprise this kind of thing gets out of hand more often than not when players get very strongly attached to their team and the people in it. These people, and what enables their team, a realm, very often come under threat in this game. Threats not from within the team, but from outside... thus the us vs them mentality.
In my opinion, it basically stems from the isolation that can befall a realm such as this, bristling with team spirit but oblivious to everything outside the limits of their own group. You can't respect what you don't know and as these realms experience the outside world through military confrontation, which they excel at because of said team spirit, no respect will be earned through the very few contacts. All at the edge of the sword. It's very easy to say that all of that IC and OOC we can all be friends but time and time again that has been proven to be an imperfect assumption. An IC rivalry evolves at the very least to OOC distrust, except in those rare roleplay cases where it's orchestrated between friends.
I don't see a way to solve that issue than through more communication between players of different IC background. As it can't be forced upon them OOG, though it's good that there is a forum, and truly IRC has very often opened my eyes to another perspective on a situation in the game, but I guess it's not for everyone. Would get a little busy too. :P
The point is isolation is the breeding ground for this kind of behaviour and there should be more ways to break through it provided in game. More ways to communicate with people from outside your team, getting to know who your enemies are. In fact historically, medieval nobles weren't at all concerned about their nationality but much more self-interested. Nobles from distant places would marry, ally, befriend eachother because it would benefit themselves and their family. Ties of interests were a spiderweb over europe, crossing kingdoms and empires. This is what we should try to simulate in stead of just the introverted messaging options we have now were only those in charge are in regular contact with the outside world and isolation is forced on a nobility that should be far more cosmopolitan warriors than nationalist soldiers.
In other words: Communication Revolution baby!
-
We lost Ryu/Juan in Sirion and he "failed" just one time... he decided to leave, but it was "because of the Titans". We also lost Dobromir, and that's was a direct fault of our friend Alex. I like him, but I have no reasons to defend him when he's wrong.
We continue fighting, since I know he would like to know we won the war. Do the same for Alex, if you love him so much. Do something better for Perdan. When he decided to leave, we lose some players too... it's normal, I think.
-
Oh for gods sake, for all the people who are whining about Atanamir getting his account lock, please, PLEASE, go look in the courthouse part of the forums. There were several cases where he attempted to harass and drive away players.
I personally have a cousin who played in Perdan, and I have long found that realm to be in denial about anything wrong its players do. This has been a LOOOONG time coming, and I'm personally glad. I'm willing to bet that most of the people who are angry are only angry because their realm is suffering a setback, not because a player has been perma-locked.
Why don't you shove that... your glad someone left get real were fighting to retain anyone we can. Your experience with him does not warrant such a statement and as a player to another you sure probably haven't been playing as a friend either it seems with that.
I'll tell it how it is, anyone who knew Alex could care less about the fact Perdan will suffer we care about the fact that a player who we trusted and did more good than harm in this game is gone. You realize only in the past two years this became a issue for him and others. Geez we have become so soft skinned.
Titans I don't agree and I rarely will with such unless multi or clans. I can say I honestly if this is the way others play by playing the victims I should just not speak in realms. Dobby was a good player but he was not perfect, neither is Alex. OOC is toxic and and I'm glad he did not renew his donation.
He unlike many who play this for free don't support this game though it may be just a little help we at least did. I see that I would have to agree with him. Our community is toxic and it's just underneath the surface of the players...
-
The point is isolation is the breeding ground for this kind of behaviour and there should be more ways to break through it provided in game. More ways to communicate with people from outside your team, getting to know who your enemies are. In fact historically, medieval nobles weren't at all concerned about their nationality but much more self-interested. Nobles from distant places would marry, ally, befriend eachother because it would benefit themselves and their family. Ties of interests were a spiderweb over europe, crossing kingdoms and empires.
This is absolutely true. I have, at times, dreamed of a new family system, that would make nobles part of much larger families, and remove the 1:1 player:family ratio.
Imagine, if instead of your characters just belonging to the realm, they also belonged to a family that encompassed another 3 dozen nobles, played by twenty or thirty players, some of whom are the kings and queens of other realms on this and other continents. In a system like that, we could actually have marriages to seal treaties, and titles inherited by blood, and honest-to-goodness familial claims on regions and even realms.
Unfortunately, while the coding wouldn't be terribly difficult (far from trivial, though; it would probably take a few weeks at least to get written and tested), implementing this system would require one of three things:
- Abandon all our existing characters and start fresh.
- Retcon everyone's RP so that their characters "always" belonged to these new dynastic families.
- Just make all the existing families in the game the seeds for the dynastic families, even though each of them starts out with no more than a handful of nobles in it.
None of those are particularly good options for it.
Also, I'm pretty sure Tom has expressed opposition to abandoning the 1 player, 1 family principle, so that kills it right there :-\
-
A code would be good, but nothing something so new... not for me. I can quote the Serpentis/Tandaros and Serpentis/Blakeshadow lineages.
I had more family ties in the past and I'm working in new ones, but family was always important for me in the game's context.
-
Why don't you shove that... your glad someone left get real were fighting to retain anyone we can. Your experience with him does not warrant such a statement and as a player to another you sure probably haven't been playing as a friend either it seems with that.
I'll tell it how it is, anyone who knew Alex could care less about the fact Perdan will suffer we care about the fact that a player who we trusted and did more good than harm in this game is gone. You realize only in the past two years this became a issue for him and others. Geez we have become so soft skinned.
Titans I don't agree and I rarely will with such unless multi or clans. I can say I honestly if this is the way others play by playing the victims I should just not speak in realms. Dobby was a good player but he was not perfect, neither is Alex. OOC is toxic and and I'm glad he did not renew his donation.
He unlike many who play this for free don't support this game though it may be just a little help we at least did. I see that I would have to agree with him. Our community is toxic and it's just underneath the surface of the players...
Bold are all the points which are highly hypocritical.
In italics is the point I would like to state that I have personally donated several times towards this game. In addition I have provided a guide for using the different types of troops that is now on the wiki, though I would like to state that it is outdated because of game mechanic changes.
-
Geez we have become so soft skinned.
This. This is global(western?) RL problem as well. People get butthurt for next to nothing.
-
This. This is global(western?) RL problem as well. People get butthurt for next to nothing.
There is a two-way rule that I think is very important:
Do not be unnecessarily easily offended. Do not be unnecessarily offensive.
It's important to follow both sides of the rule.
It's also important not to get so caught up in the first part that you forget that it is possible to be legitimately offended for good reasons. If you go through life assuming that everyone who files a Titan report, or complains about being offended, is just "getting butthurt for next to nothing," you're certainly no better a human being than those who go through life whining and complaining that everything isn't immediately handed to them.
-
I have not had time to read it before, and did not even know that the discussion was going on, but I'm glad that to happen because I believe something like this event needs to be talked about openly, or he will remain a ghost, haunting us forever.
I've been busy this past week and even paused a few characters. Among the last messages that I saw in the EC was one sent by Alex, one OOC message saying something about me and it was so unimportant that I could never imagine that that message would start this mess.
Now I had read it all, and I am sad because more people left the game, and others are angry about all this.
I am sad to see Alex go, because he is a old player, obviously dedicated to the game, someone that was a reference for many players, but also someone that was so involved with the game to a point that he harmed some people.
I was sad also when Jason (Dobromir) left the game. After this, Alex and I never talked again. He knew I did not like what he did and we had a silent agreement to keep distance.
I choose to play at same realm as him to try to see that other Alex, the one that is loved, great strategist and etc., and I need to say I was not disappointed with him.
Recently I started a topic to thank Tim, Tom and the devs but specifically Tim, for the WI and his continuous work at BM, that allow us to play this awesome game. I started it after reading some OOC talks from some players, including Alex, where they insinuate that the Titans and the devs had favoritism for players or realms.
What I was trying to say is: If I play this game, and I trust you to be the developer of it, I trust you also to make the rules, and to make decisions to make the game better, even if this means that you will ban someone.
I am posting this again here because I think this is the main point. In all those years that I play the game, I never saw a unfair decision by the devs. This last one, is not unfair. Is strict, yes. Is definitive and I am sure that is hard for them too to see a 10 years player going away but, they gave him more than one chance to change.
What is important now is that, if Alex love this game as much as I believe he does, he can try to come back, with a new account and start over. To start over is not a issue, and shouldn't ever be a issue to anyone. He did a huge investment in his family, did he create a awesome char? He is more than capable of creating a new one.
Is not easy, I know that, but is not like he is really dead, right?
What I believe is important, is that we need to try harder to separate IC and OOC and try to play each char as a totally new one, leaving behind the old tricks and failures of the old chars. Also try to give to the other players a new chance, every time we meet them IC. We still have this huge eye over here to remind us that we need to play nice with each other.
I can imagine how hard it is for everyone that invested so much time on this game to see the numbers of the database going down, but, I am sure, they do everything they can to change this. What is important now, is to help them to do this.
-
I really think the culture and attitude of the players as a whole has changed dramatically. Seeing and hearing what has been going on on the War Island just makes me shake my head. The !@#$ that's going on there wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. There's so much OOC crap, whining, open hostility between players and just plain horrible atmosphere. It has just about brought out the worst in BM.
I don't think any of the three realms on the War Island has managed to go without having massive internal strife, both IC and OOC.
I still remember when Colonies opened and there was a rush to get there. I started out in Giblot I think. We elected our council and got to taking over regions. Not much strife there, just people selecting their leaders and then standing behind them. Compare it to the War Island opening now and it's like night and day. Heck, even the Dwilight opening was much smoother and friendlier. Sure, there were arguments, but they were mostly IC. But people came to the realms, elected their council and got to work. You fairly quickly had the sense you were playing as a team.
There seems to be this "screw everyone else, I want that and I'm going to get it." attitude that makes players go to great lengths to get what they want. There doesn't seem to be any of that old "I'm on this team. Let's kill those other guys."
I don't know how or when that change happened, but it has happened. Atanamir..well, for many years he played the game just fine. No problems. Then in the past year or two he somehow managed to change into someone who got permanently banned from the game. I doubt that would have happened had the community around him not also changed.
I don't know. Bit of rant. Take from it what you want..
-
I think the ideal thing would be to have some kind of big BattleMaster get-together, where everyone can actually meet the players on the other side, and learn to see them as real people. I know small events of this nature have happened in the past, but I'm skeptical that one could be organized that's large enough to ensure that it reaches enough of the prominent players on opposite sides of these entrenched conflicts.
More ideas are welcome. And if someone wants to try to persuade me that any of these ideas I'm rejecting are more workable than I think, I'm willing to consider it, too ;D
Maybe pick out 4-6 regions in the world that have the most BM players and organize simultaneous get-togethers in those places and connect them by video link.
-
I have often thought how great it would be to attend a RL group BM gathering. The simultanious gatherings I think is a good idea, broadening the catchment area. I would be up for it if I didnt have to travel half way around the world.
-
Greetings everyone. I am not going to comment of my opinion of thoughts on the player of Alex after what happened because it wouldnt be fair to him and negative opinions on other players dont help in anyway.
Basically all the issues that battlemaster has is a simple lack of respect and greedyness of a minority of players. Back when i used to play players respected people in higher positions. They would take the lowly knight class as a lowly knight class and not speak up to their lords. Sadly creating new character does nothing to erase the knowledge the player does have of the game and indirectly people use this knowledge to try and get what they want.
Take scenario 1. A player wants to gain positions in x time. He begins in the realm and is very vocal making sure he is heard and becomes popular. He will target x noble from that realm simply because he wants his position and either directly or more subtly will make the person miserable IC. This scenario considering the small player base is almost definately discussed OOC between friend groups (everyone knows they exist) and they help each other to achieve this goal.
Scenario 2. The player who creates an account to just cause chaos. Basically they make a character in the realm soley for undermining everything and causing chaos. I think going to a realm with this intention is a very very bad thing because by nature Knights are supposed to be loyal at the start. If events happen that turn them than thats another story completely.
There are many more scenarios I am briefly bringing up two to make a simple point. Basically in both one party or the other is going to get annoyed IC and likely OOC. The player doing this has a goal if it fails hes going to be quite angry about it. If he succeeds the people targetted will likely feel targetted and want to lash back out in what normally starts all the OOC arguements.
Battlemaster would improve if people toned down targetting. This also has to do with people making family fueds. I dont agree this should happen unless both players agree they would like this. I understand family feuds are a thing but in the end everyone here is a person and people do get tied with their characters and have issues making character separation. This is why when the general player wants to do something to another I think there needs to be a mutual agreement on it.
I know i may not have expressed my point across clearly. The best example i can give is someone wants to play ball with you and you really dont want to and he keeps insisting and insisting and you are forced to in the end. Thats how alot of situations occur starting on a bad foot and it goes sour from there.
Either way this is my two cents. About me. No im not currently playing the game and havent since I quit a year ago. I am however considering returning now. I havent fully decided on the matter.
-
(And just for clarity's sake, for those who don't know, Miriam Ics is the player of the character who moved into Hagley but did not start a battle, thus sparking off this incident, and Menethil is the former player of Dobromir, as mentioned earlier in the thread.)
-
A few things :
I'm Thor ( yes my real first name ) from Belgium, playing 8 years now in the Jorvik family.
LOL.... wasn't BM Tom's social experiment in the first place? All this is exactly what happens in the real world now. We used to look up to teachers and presidents, but now everything is "chaos".
I would love to see Alex come back under a new name and start fresh.
Miriam, I loved your post, honest and still with respect for Alex. Thx for that X
BM Con 14 ? YES oh YES : I dreamed, years ago, when I also dreamed winning the lotto that I could host such an event, giving players incentive to come ( like paying for the flight or the hotel ). But a convention on every continent can work. I hope we can look into that.
About WI : It's chaos every where but that will go away. I rather put everyone randomly in a realm and start from there.
About the future : maybe less chars, so we need to invest in that char? Random realm choosing? Get more to the basics like fighting and not so much armies, duchies, Dukes with only titles and no cities? Maybe just go back to less details??
Well it seems BM can rise out of this turmoul... I for one believe it can.
Btw Alex ... I'll miss ya
-
This decision has driven away more players than Alex supposedly has.
Another one bites the dust:
after that many Perdan players have quit or paused.
I ll do the same after 11 years of playing.
BM is not for me anymore.
Dionyssis Klavdianos
-
This decision has driven away more players than Alex supposedly has.
Another one bites the dust:
after that many Perdan players have quit or paused.
I ll do the same after 11 years of playing.
BM is not for me anymore.
Dionyssis Klavdianos
Sad to see people leave but what has been done had to be done. Things will settle down eventually.
-
Greetings everyone. I am not going to comment of my opinion of thoughts on the player of Alex after what happened because it wouldnt be fair to him and negative opinions on other players dont help in anyway.
That entire rant seemed to be your opinion on Alex... also, those scenarios are oddly enough depressing.
@Lilwolf... it's already ingrained
On another note, yes as M2rt state this has touched a nerve.
Tally for Character Losses:
Noble has left (17 hours, 53 minutes ago)
The player of Saul has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
Noble has left (10 hours, 46 minutes ago)
The player of Gurgulithras has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.
Lord Pauses (7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Sean Shaffer, the player of Lodu Eirikr, has paused her for an indefinite period.
Knight Pauses (5 hours, 47 minutes ago) (Wouter paused all his Character on all Islands)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Wouter Eitjes, the player of Pablo D`Este, has paused him for an indefinite period.
Erdogan Halimi, the player of Sinan Kalkandelen, has paused him for an indefinite period.
Due to pausing, he loses the following
and more to follow it seems...
-
Good. Then all of the people that allowed this to go on for so long will be gone.
-
Lord Pauses (7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Sean Shaffer, the player of Lodu Eirikr, has paused her for an indefinite period.
Please stop including my name on this list. I have not departed the game, but continue to play elsewhere. I simply have no desire to play in Perdan when I see a majority of letters being OOC, particularly when they are also unwilling to respect the Titans decision. Please note: Disagreement and respect are two different things.
-
Good. Then all of the people that allowed this to go on for so long will be gone.
Yes, less the players more fun for you.
-
Sad to see people leave but what has been done had to be done. Things will settle down eventually.
I do not agree on the "had to be done" part.
Quoting Anaris..
It started with Dobromir and Deytheur, whom he believed had begun a RL relationship.
It wasnt about that, it was about that they acted suspicously and looked like they OOC cheated. I was there, it was suspicious. True, not wise to accuse someone publicly... Really bad to go personal and OOC... I usually avoid OOC alltogether...
But it wasn't long before he was doing more of the same. Reporting suspected clans to the Titans is fine, but not when you send 4 or 5 reports within a week just to say, "Hey, why haven't you locked them all yet? I found them for you, that should be all the evidence you need!" (Not in those words, obviously, but that was the implication.) And then when the Titans didn't act fast enough to lock those he thought were clan members, he just made up bogus IC reasons to ban them from Perdan
Uhm. He did what a good King does. These OOC cheaters were ruining the game! I myself would have banned them so others have a good experience. Note that later the titans did lock some of them. Seriously, these guys were ruining our fun. And now Anaris says we should let cheaters play and shut up? If the titans cant handle the workload, then get more titans. Seriously man?
Loot at BM description: "we dislike cheaters and abusers, and players and GameMasters cooperate on removing them."
The most recent incident was the last straw. Miriam, whom I know both of you know from IRC, and I think it's absolutely clear she would never knowingly abuse a bug in any way, had a character move into a region where Alex thought she should have sparked a battle. He immediately took to the airwaves, broadcasting all across the EC that anyone who dared to move into that region now would be obviously exploiting a bug, and thus abusing the game (due to the fact that there should have been a battle, thus giving someone-or-other an advantage they shouldn't have had).
So it was the last straw that your friend got involved? I know Miriam and like her. But that means nothing! If Alex thought it was a bug it was his RIGHT and obligation as a good player to share this information. The correct thing would have been to tell him off, that he is wrong. NOT LOCK HIM! He thought he did the right thing, if people are wrong, then you teach them. NOT SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE! Because thats what you did.
And about people leaving, I know atleast 6 people who are already on the verge of leaving. One actually said to be around only for the donation to wear off... Good old players, donators. Going away. Why? The reasons are not enough for me...
Thank you for allowing me to blow off some steam. Without that I would have pushed the delete button already.
And remember people, things are not black and white. If a person does so much good, then if he slips, you help him up and teach him to not do bad, because of all the good he has done. Not call him cancer and toxic and what not.
That is the reason I am holding my emotions back Timothy, because you have made so much good. But now you have made a bad thing. Learn from it please. With great power comes great responsibility.
All this is just depressing, we lost great people to play with. Friends. :(
-
And remember people, things are not black and white. If a person does so much good, then if he slips, you help him up and teach him to not do bad, because of all the good he has done. Not call him cancer and toxic and what not.
So how many times do you expect the dev and titans to teach him not do bad? I think you are forgetting the fact he has harassed people MULTIPLE times. The ban wasn't about just last action. I think some of you are forgetting the fact he has done this over the years. It is not about what he did over a month or two.
He was also accusing perfectly normal players as cheaters because they weren't following his orders all the time or they were playing against him. If you report people every time you play against them, there is a huge problem. I believe Alex was one of the most frequent reporters of the game.
He was a dedicated player but I believe he was way too dedicated. Maybe to the degree of obsession. When you start taking things too personally maybe it is your time to take a few steps back.
So it was the last straw that your friend got involved? I know Miriam and like her. But that means nothing! If Alex thought it was a bug it was his RIGHT and obligation as a good player to share this information. The correct thing would have been to tell him off, that he is wrong. NOT LOCK HIM! He thought he did the right thing, if people are wrong, then you teach them. NOT SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE! Because thats what you did.
Again. Nonsense. The problem here is you think titans are biased. I am sure they are trying to be impartial but as humans I doubt people can truly be unbiased. That is why you get enough people to balance things out. But if you are accusing the developer of this, I don't know what to say other than why are you even playing this game if you can't trust the person who is working to make the game better by providing more contents?
It is sad to see people go but they've made their choice and only thing as those who are remaining with the game can do is accept their decisions and hope to see them again when things settle down.
Like you said, things are not black and white. Alex was neither too white nor too black. He was just a player like everyone else who loved the game a bit too much.
-
Uhm. He did what a good King does. These OOC cheaters were ruining the game! I myself would have banned them so others have a good experience. Note that later the titans did lock some of them. Seriously, these guys were ruining our fun. And now Anaris says we should let cheaters play and shut up? If the titans cant handle the workload, then get more titans. Seriously man?
Loot at BM description: "we dislike cheaters and abusers, and players and GameMasters cooperate on removing them."
If the Titans, at the time, decide that they have insufficient evidence to act on, it isn't a ruler's place to take matters into his own hands.
So no, he didn't do what a good King does. The Titans are not his personal enforcement branch, and his word alone isn't sufficient evidence to prove multi cheating.
As for the Dobromic incident, don't even go there. Seriously, don't. I don't even know what you people mean by "suspicious", particularly when the characters aren't in your own realm. You can't possibly know login times, you can't possibly know players' motivations, and failing that I'm lost as to what "suspicious behavior" could possibly entail. If you think something if fishy, you report them and the Titans will find the evidence if there is any to be found.
-
If Alex thought it was a bug it was his RIGHT and obligation as a good player to share this information. The correct thing would have been to tell him off, that he is wrong. NOT LOCK HIM!
Well, to be honest, he didn't just share the information. He was accusing us of cheating and threatening that we shouldn't move to Hagley, or he will report us and all...
Out-of-Character from Atanamir of Umbar (4 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to the Generals of East Continent (8 recipients)
There is probably a battle bug, the Eponllyn noble Myrnia did not skimirsh in Hagley.
I am sure you noticed as well, but obviously you have decided to abuse this attack.
Scribe Note Scout Report (Hagley)
Scribe Note Scout Report (Greatbridge)
I consider you hereby informed and if you continue I will report an abuse of the bug, given that no battle in Hagley will only give you an advantage.
Since I had lots of RL work that week, I did not notice anything and I wouldn't even know if it is a bug or whatever. Our army movements were decided long before. Of course, noone planned to cheat or abuse bugs.
When I got this message I thought that it's weird and ignored it. I myself don't have a problem with player of Atanamir and I would prefer him to stay, but I can understand titans' reasoning.
-
If tournaments were created as a means of combating the us vs. them mentality, perhaps it just needs to be beefed up a bit. Some ideas:
* Allow characters that can not participate still attend (already proposed i believe)
* Have hosting a tournament provide a production boost realm wide
* boost is small but variable depending on how much is invested in the tournament
* boost starts one week before the tournament and lasts until one week after
* Have an automated "Tournament of the Titans" every game year (turning of the seasons)
* Tournament is located on a mysterious island
* Characters from all islands can join
* All characters can join
* Prize money is high and comes from nowhere
* If a noble of a region participates in a tournament, that region gains a production boost while gone. If the noble does well, an additional production boost occurs after the tournament. This bonus boost lasts longer if you placed better.
Just some thoughts!
-
BlueStar and m2rt.
I was very loved in Caligus just as much as Atanamir was probably in Perdan. The difference being was I played the game properly and made as little impact to the game by my leaving. I dont think anyone else quit Caligus at the time. Maybe shortly after a couple of people left however I didnt follow and do not know that.
Everyone who has decided to quit because the Titan's decided to take action against a player who has repeated offenses to the social contract. There is no way to justify ANY action that doesnt abide the social contract. It was not Alex's job to do this. You all realise the whispering and badtalk of players that he suspected of cheating mark these said players with a badname permenantly to the entire group. Everyone knows Alex was paranoid but his only duty was to report directly to the titans suspected cheaters. He however decided to take matter in his own hands countless times which is the underlying problem with the player. He felt he was defender, judge and executioner of his own verdict.
I bolded the part because i feel that is the underlying reason why what action was taken against him. With regards to those leaving and people posting about who is leaving. This simply doesnt matter. Its simply showing a bigger problem that multiple players all in High stagnant Perdanese postiions for a long time will quit the game because of the ruling. This shows that there is a huge OOC problem and Perdan was not a realm you could ever grow in as a new noble into higher positions as they were placekept. This attitude is alot resembling of an OOC clan.
I will not hide that I left the game because I felt Alex was not even close to punished enough for what he did to me. However, I accepted the decision and didnt take other people out of the game with me nor did I start a forum war to try and get my way. You all have played the game for a very long time. I dont think you are doing good to yourself and him causing all this bickering. When such decisions are taken people with be upset and others will be happy this has happened. Somewhere the titans NEED to draw the line how much they can accept. With Alex its obvious he crossed the line and its a learning lesson.
I do believe that someday he will be allowed to return to the game. But im pretty sure its after a substantial timeout and a new family involved. Those friends of Alex who really wish to see him back the right way. Keep playing. This may even do the player good. An extended timeout however long time and the titans deem he needs may actually fix the bad part of Alex. Obviously there is always a chance this does not happen or Alex doesnt wish to return to the game in the future.
Please just let the argument die down. Nothing is going to come from this. I think the titan's handle things very well for the most part. They keep cases private because it prevents labelling people with bad reputations which i think is good. Most people learn from their mistakes and its unfair to release minor breaches of social contract to the masses.
I will even make a request that this topic gets locked. If you really want something to come from this open a new topic with suggestions on how to improve the Titan system in how they act, handle cases, transparency and so on.
-
Unwin, some of those are pretty good ideas. Please repost them in the Feature Requests sub forum.
-
I remember more than a year ago, exactly on June 10, 2013, at 20:07, I had just started playing battlemaster and used to go on the irc regularly. By then I had convinced 5 people to start playing the game with me (although I had just been playing for a week or so). All of us joined Barca, and everyone just made second characters randomly (if they did at all).
Anyhow, I was a total noob and at the time still hung around on irc to ask questions about the game. Atanamir started talking to me in private and told me on irc (never talked to him before) warning me that he would file a report against all of the new Barca players because apparantly two of the new players of Barca had joined Caligus ( a realm he was at war with ), first he told me they would only be losing time there (because Caligus would lose anyway) and I should tell them to leave, I told him I didn't control what they did, so then he told me this was clannish and bannable. He told me he'd played BM for nine years and he would report us if more players joined because it would destabilize Caligus. I told him I would tell the other guys, but no assurances since for my part, they can do whatever they want, and I was asking other people on irc at the same time if it was bannable and they assured me it wasn't, after which he told me it would be ok for us all to join a realm in Atamara (Darka) since there are more players there and it would not destabilize the realm.
After that I stopped using irc quickly. As I kept playing and knew more about the game I was not very surprised to see Atanamir getting into one OOC argument after another, this only of the few that boiled over onto the forums.
I warned the other guys, that I had convinced to play, about this conversation, and they all reacted similarly, it was quite obvious he was trying to intimidate them in leaving by threatening to ban them because he was at war with that realm. Very low in my opinion considering he knew we were all new and didn't know the exact rules. I haven't brought it up since, but it's definitely one of the most messed up things I've encountered playing Battlemaster.
-
Ultimately I agree with the ban on Atanamir. The Titans had their reasons, gave him plenty of chances, and gave him a consequence for his failure to correct his behaviour.
As for the ragequitters over this, it's childish and unhelpful. As someone who's characters are heavily invested in the Southern Alliance, this definitely hurts them, and I resent the fact that this Perdanese exodus stemmed from an OOC tantrum over a Titan decision. Is this something that my characters' enemies caused? No, this is a knife in their back from characters who were supposedly their allies.
As for Unwin's suggestion for the Titan Tournament, that actually sounds pretty cool. I have no idea what the current Tournament mechanic is like though, as am somewhat still new to the game.
A specific island for every player to combat an unstoppable force of enemies would be cool, but again I definitely think it may be too tall of an order for the time being, especially with things still being worked out on the war islands.
-
And remember people, things are not black and white. If a person does so much good, then if he slips, you help him up and teach him to not do bad, because of all the good he has done. Not call him cancer and toxic and what not.
So... how many chances and attempts do you think are appropriate? Two? Three? Four? How about 5?
You see, attempts were made. You're probably just not aware of most of them. For example:
1) A removal from positions, 30-day lockout from positions, 3-day account lock, and warning
2) A public warning
3) A private warning
4) A removal from position, 14-day lock out from position, and 3-day account lock
5) A privately sent "Final warning" ultimatum
Two through five all occurred over a period of 2 months. Each one was for a different violation of the social contract.
Eventually, you just have to cut and run.
I will be repurposing the Courthouse sub-forum later today, and turning it into a Titan's case archive. Selected case summaries and verdicts will be posted when deemed appropriate. A case summary of this particular case will be the first one posted.
-
Interestingly in regards to the "Atanamir did such good things, surely they should not be overlooked" argument, there actually was a case in Taselak recently in which a noble refused to swear fealty to the elected Queen, but swore to follow the General, and actually did so and was rather loyal and active in following orders and contributing to the realm. Despite all of his "good deeds", his unwillingness to bow to the queen, and follow the rules led to him being banned from the realm.
That action was widely protested by the realm, but ultimately accepted as it was deemed that the judge and queen made their decision with the best interests of the realm at heart.
With Atanamir, it seems a very similar thing has happened. You have two choices:
Accept that the people who created the game, and are charged with moderating it know what they're doing and are acting with their game's best interests at heart, or
Go make your own game where you get to decide what does or does not happen.
Seriously, am I the only one here who treats this like a massive multiplayer version of D&D? I may not agree with some of the DM's decisions, but ultimately they are there to moderate what happens and keep the game from getting too static, and I trust them to do that. (although personally on that front I could stand to see a few more changes. Granted I also understand that stuff like that is far easier to implement on the pen and paper version than it is with thousands of lines of code)
Part of moderating a game means occasionally kicking out a player that is ruining the game for other people. Deal with it.
-
If tournaments were created as a means of combating the us vs. them mentality, perhaps it just needs to be beefed up a bit. Some ideas:
* Allow characters that can not participate still attend (already proposed i believe)
* Have hosting a tournament provide a production boost realm wide
* boost is small but variable depending on how much is invested in the tournament
* boost starts one week before the tournament and lasts until one week after
* Have an automated "Tournament of the Titans" every game year (turning of the seasons)
* Tournament is located on a mysterious island
* Characters from all islands can join
* All characters can join
* Prize money is high and comes from nowhere
* If a noble of a region participates in a tournament, that region gains a production boost while gone. If the noble does well, an additional production boost occurs after the tournament. This bonus boost lasts longer if you placed better.
Just some thoughts!
-
Naysayers...
Did those last multis Alex report turn out to be multis? What of the other multis he reported? Might as well report everyone to cleanse the game once in awhile... remember that guy from OI mm.
Dobby you speak highly of yourself... didn't Calgius die once you left or was it headed that way? Also, you said you left because the punishment on Alex was not severe enough? no you left prior to his punishment review Court house.
Counts rising in Perdan... btw
-
Did those last multis Alex report turn out to be multis? What of the other multis he reported?
He reported a large number of people, not as multicheaters, but as a suspected OOC clan.
Some of them turned out to be multicheaters.
However, this does not justify any of his behaviour. Once he had reported them, rather than simply awaiting the Titans' decision—or even nudging me on IRC or through forum PMs from time to time, as many others are known to do—he filed three more Titan reports, coming close to saying, "You should lock all these people because I know they are guilty, never mind about your investigations."
In the end, we caught the multicheaters because of an improvement to our multicheater detection tools, not because Alexandros reported them.
Might as well report everyone to cleanse the game once in awhile... remember that guy from OI mm.
Do you listen to yourself? Yes, obviously, if the Titans investigated every single player in the game, we'd find that some of them were multicheaters. But that's hardly a justification for just reporting everyone. If the Titans had the time and resources to investigate every single player in the game on a regular basis, do you think we'd need people to report suspected multicheaters for us to catch them?
-
Naysayers...
Did those last multis Alex report turn out to be multis? What of the other multis he reported? Might as well report everyone to cleanse the game once in awhile... remember that guy from OI mm.
Dobby you speak highly of yourself... didn't Calgius die once you left or was it headed that way? Also, you said you left because the punishment on Alex was not severe enough? no you left prior to his punishment review Court house.
Counts rising in Perdan... btw
I am not the discussion here that ended a year ago. There is no point bringing it up. I left because of Atanamir I decided not to come back at that time because of the magistrate decision on a very light punishment in my opinion. At the time I left Caligus was fine and Sirion were going to come help. What happened after I left had nothing to do with me.
-
Did those last multis Alex report turn out to be multis?
Some yes, some no. Which only goes to show that if you shoot at enough things with a shotgun, you're bound to hit something eventually. And probably a lot of things that were better off not getting hit.
What of the other multis he reported?
Same story.
Are you trying to imply that so long as someone often reports large numbers of accounts as suspected cheaters, whether they are or not, with proof without, that we have to allow him to continue to abuse, insult, and harass anyone they desire?
Counts rising in Perdan... btw
Unfortunate, but that is their choice.
-
I can understand that some players can be disappointed with the Titans decision and that they will left because they don't trust the game anymore.
In fact, this was your reason to leave, wasn't Menethil? (I am glad to see you here).
But think a bit if this is a really good reason.
Try to take out all the emotion off the table and see whats left.
I thought on leaving at the time Jason left, but I had the time (and good sense) to think more about what happen and at the end I could understand why the decision of the punishment for Alex was taken and even not really happy with it, I accepted it.
Those players leaving, seems to do not want to accept a decision that was taken and this, for me, is unacceptable. This sounds like emotional blackmail for me (not sure the expression is right, I've used google to find it).
Two of them are known for constantly pausing chars, D'Este and Kalkandelen. Erdogan had even deleted his account after Asena died so I am not sure they count.
Märt, Blue Star, Evi and all others that are Alex friends. Think a bit more before leaving. Try to see all what happen from the other side and try to see that Alex had more than enough chances and I bet he still will have one more, to come back with a new account if he tries.
I know I will be very sad and disappointed if you all leave too.
One more thing. I think that one reason that makes BM awesome is that you can actually improve it because you can be heard, and you can suggest improvements but this doesn't mean that if you don't agree with something it will be changed.
This can be one reason why some people left. Just thinking about it now while I am writing.
-
I've always liked playing with Alex. He was always fair, helpful, and supportive. I've seen him mix IC and OOC, and if he got nasty with it then punishment is understandable. It isn't like the player is banned from the game, right? Alex can come back, start fresh, but losing his old family breaks a bit of his OOC investment.
The way the Titan Message was worded made it sound like Alex was a dick, though. He wasn't, really. He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested. It is good in that he was a backbone character to a realm (and its players), it is bad that he was prone to getting really mad and lashing out. We all mix IC and OOC to some degree and it pops out in different ways. Addressing this would be better than the blame-game.
-
I've always liked playing with Alex. He was always fair, helpful, and supportive. I've seen him mix IC and OOC, and if he got nasty with it then punishment is understandable. It isn't like the player is banned from the game, right? Alex can come back, start fresh, but losing his old family breaks a bit of his OOC investment.
The way the Titan Message was worded made it sound like Alex was a dick, though. He wasn't, really. He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested. It is good in that he was a backbone character to a realm (and its players), it is bad that he was prone to getting really mad and lashing out. We all mix IC and OOC to some degree and it pops out in different ways. Addressing this would be better than the blame-game.
Yeah, he was a dick. He repeatedly harassed several players, and was repeatedly warned and punished for such actions. The amount of delusion and denial I see from some people in this thread is amazing...
-
He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested.
Passion can go both ways. They can like something obsessively while they can hate something obsessively as well.
-
There seems to be a perception—not just here, or just in BattleMaster, but in society in general—that people are either Nice, or they are Nasty. That if you met them, and chatted with them, and they seemed like a perfectly ordinary, nice person to deal with, that must mean that they would never really do anything mean to anyone. (And vice versa, if you bumped into them on the street and they cursed you out, they must be mean people who never do anything nice for anyone.)
This is not true. Alexandros was a nice guy to a lot of people. Hell, I liked him for a long time. His character Castamir was general under my character Alanna (the same Alanna who just died on Dwilight (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5854.0.html)) on the first South-East Island, and at that time, I called him my friend. He was friendly, loyal, and yes, very passionate about Ikalak. Even for years later, I never had any real quarrel with him; we just weren't playing in the same places for a long time. I have absolutely no problem with the statements many people have made that he was a nice guy, a good player, a mentor, and a champion for Perdan.
However, even ten years ago, I also remember him being absolutely ruthless to those who he viewed as opposing him. This was true of our enemies as a realm, and even his political enemies within the realm. I don't specifically remember his ruthlessness causing him to be mean OOC back then, but I can't say for sure that he didn't, either—and SEI Ikalak was a realm he'd only been in for a few months, not several years.
If he had recognized this aggressively protective streak in himself as a bad thing back then, and made an effort to suppress it, I think that things would have been very different, and the East Continent might have been a less stressful place to play for many people in the intervening years. But clearly, he did not suppress it, and it grew to drive him to the actions that led to this pass.
-
Tim,
You said it... if we had known....
That's way I'm pro of Titan reports going public. Then we could help not only the player but the rest of the ragequiters.
BTW can they return if they wish?
-
Some yes, some no. Which only goes to show that if you shoot at enough things with a shotgun, you're bound to hit something eventually. And probably a lot of things that were better off not getting hit.
Same story.
Are you trying to imply that so long as someone often reports large numbers of accounts as suspected cheaters, whether they are or not, with proof without, that we have to allow him to continue to abuse, insult, and harass anyone they desire?
Unfortunate, but that is their choice.
He reported a large number of people, not as multicheaters, but as a suspected OOC clan.
Some of them turned out to be multicheaters.
However, this does not justify any of his behaviour. Once he had reported them, rather than simply awaiting the Titans' decision—or even nudging me on IRC or through forum PMs from time to time, as many others are known to do—he filed three more Titan reports, coming close to saying, "You should lock all these people because I know they are guilty, never mind about your investigations."
In the end, we caught the multicheaters because of an improvement to our multicheater detection tools, not because Alexandros reported them.
Do you listen to yourself? Yes, obviously, if the Titans investigated every single player in the game, we'd find that some of them were multicheaters. But that's hardly a justification for just reporting everyone. If the Titans had the time and resources to investigate every single player in the game on a regular basis, do you think we'd need people to report suspected multicheaters for us to catch them?
... I'm not hear to start a argument with either of you note that, I don't have the time and effort to do so. I am hear to defend a good friend who played this game. It seems you all forget he was a player and state he was a "Cancer to the game" some state their glad to see him go. He deserved more than this...
What annoys me the most is that my drive for playing this game has taken enough hits and its not the ban on Alex that really hit it, but the way I have seen people comment and the truth of how the atmosphere has changed.
@Gustav Kuriga I think your true side really shows as a player in the comments you have left on hear nothing but negativity and name calling and yet, your post have not been deleted or edited... has his player been warned? Is this how we treat one another...playing as friends? Your words concerning Alex are better left to yourself and your clique/follower leave them out of this thread.
Seems he wasn't that far off concerning the multi's since he reported them then Titan's used their new tools to review such accusations.
-
Blue Star, how much confirmation bias could you possibly have? Here, let me quote what Anaris said, just in case you happened to somehow miss it.
There seems to be a perception—not just here, or just in BattleMaster, but in society in general—that people are either Nice, or they are Nasty. That if you met them, and chatted with them, and they seemed like a perfectly ordinary, nice person to deal with, that must mean that they would never really do anything mean to anyone. (And vice versa, if you bumped into them on the street and they cursed you out, they must be mean people who never do anything nice for anyone.)
This is not true. Alexandros was a nice guy to a lot of people. Hell, I liked him for a long time. His character Castamir was general under my character Alanna (the same Alanna who just died on Dwilight (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5854.0.html)) on the first South-East Island, and at that time, I called him my friend. He was friendly, loyal, and yes, very passionate about Ikalak. Even for years later, I never had any real quarrel with him; we just weren't playing in the same places for a long time. I have absolutely no problem with the statements many people have made that he was a nice guy, a good player, a mentor, and a champion for Perdan.
However, even ten years ago, I also remember him being absolutely ruthless to those who he viewed as opposing him. This was true of our enemies as a realm, and even his political enemies within the realm. I don't specifically remember his ruthlessness causing him to be mean OOC back then, but I can't say for sure that he didn't, either—and SEI Ikalak was a realm he'd only been in for a few months, not several years.
If he had recognized this aggressively protective streak in himself as a bad thing back then, and made an effort to suppress it, I think that things would have been very different, and the East Continent might have been a less stressful place to play for many people in the intervening years. But clearly, he did not suppress it, and it grew to drive him to the actions that led to this pass.
That doesn't sound like someone who is only out to call people a cancer of the game...
As for my attitude, Blue Star, I call it like I see it. I'm blunt about my opinions, and I admit fully to being an arrogant jerkass. But at least I don't hold onto some self-delusion like everyone saying that Alex wasn't deserving of this seem to be.
-
What annoys me the most is that my drive for playing this game has taken enough hits and its not the ban on Alex that really hit it, but the way I have seen people comment and the truth of how the atmosphere has changed.
You are correct, in that the atmosphere does seem to have changed. Maybe it's because we've lost a lot of players, and certain behaviors are harder to overlook in a smaller community. 1 in 1200 being a jerk is harder to spot than 1 in 350.
We are trying to keep the community overall as a friendly atmosphere where people feel welcomed and have fun. Some people's behavior just doesn't fit that profile. I feel bad every time an account gets locked. But that doesn't mean locking them is the wrong thing to do.
I understand that you consider Alexandros as a friend of yours. But it is an undeniable fact that his behavior, especially in the past year, has been inexcusably horrible. Go take a look at the case summary I posted, and actually look at the past case histories for this. Actually look at how many there have been, and what they are for. And then read some of the other stuff people have said that just never got officially reported.
Alex had his chances. A couple more than he should have. But how many chances can you give someone? How many times can you say "stop it, this behavior is not acceptable" before you just have to say "enough is enough, you're done"?We pretty much felt that 5 chances is more than enough.
-
BTW can they return if they wish?
Anyone who leaves of their own accord can always come back, any time they want. Even people who's accounts get perma-locked for multi-accounting, or something else like that, can come back and make a new account, so long as they play by the rules. So far as I know only two people have ever been told "Go away, and don't ever come back".
-
Seems he wasn't that far off concerning the multi's since he reported them then Titan's used their new tools to review such accusations.
Blue Star, I typically like your input and I hate to jump on the bandwagon when everyone else seems to be... but this isn't even an argument, this is a question of numbers. Go play a few games of minesweeper - you'll notice that if you keep trying, eventually you'll have some success... and it'll be taken right back away with a tediously placed mine. Worse still, real life and multi-hunting do not include the indicator numbers that minesweeper does.
Or maybe even go roll a (non-loaded) die over and over, trying to predict what it will show before you throw it. You'll be right some of the time, yeah, but every time you're not, you're wrongly accusing an innocent person. The example's even better because any given day, you could have a better or worse record.
-
Alex sent me his final words. Everyone should have a right to say their final words...:
I thought for long if I should write anything at all in here after happened what happened.
I will though comment on some points and then leave this game for now. I doubt I will return unless certain persons or policies change.
I will quote now some statements in this thread so far:
For some time now, Alex has clearly felt that it was his job to police the game for what he felt were people hurting the game.
-Anaris
And the problem is that he cares about them (answer to the first Perdan, then the game argument) in that order.
-Anaris
“we dislike cheaters and abusers, and players and GameMasters cooperate on removing them.”
-Battlemaster description, m2rt
Broadly (and at the risk of stating the obvious), I would say that the way to get players to stop viewing other players as The Enemy is to get them to either work or play together at something.
-Anaris
It promotes an "us vs. them" mentality, I think. An idea that the other side will use any method that it takes to win.
-Indirik
Yes, he's been around nearly as long as I have. But when he becomes a cancer on the game, driving away more new players than he inspires old ones, it doesn't matter how long he's been here, just what he's doing now.
Alexandros was removed from the game because he has shown a long history of toxic behaviour that has driven a number of people we know about out of the game, and certainly many others we don't.
-Anaris
Do not be unnecessarily easily offended. Do not be unnecessarily offensive.
-Anaris
Following these statements (and insinuations in the last two quotes) I will publish now a private IRC conversation between Tim and me, which was shortly after the multis lock on the WI. As reminder: The WI multis were reported by me already 1 month before their lock and my case got rejected - that shortly before they were presented as investigation success and explicit attack on the WI. But actually OI, Perdan, Fallangard and Sirion as well with the Ryu incident, were facing by then already 1 month before OOC flamewars and titan report abuse by these multi accounts.
So, after the multi lock and therefore the confirmation that my reports were valid although rejected, a public announcement and insults that I am paranoid etc. I thought an excuse, at least for the paranoia line, was in place. Although I have no idea who the Titans are, I went to Tim to ask him if that was a possible measure to restore my name. This was the outcome:
Status #battlemasterX #east-islandX #AtamaraX #dwilightX #PerdanX #south-darkaX #Minas-LeonX #lurianovaX #luriansX #IkalakX #TaleriumX MessagesX Delvin_AnarisX
[21:38] <Atanamir> Delvin_Anaris: hello I would like a public apaology by the titans
[21:38] <Atanamir> is that possible?
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> Nope.
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> You’re on thin ice already, mate.
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> Don’t push it.
[21:38] <Atanamir> i was publically called paranoid and accused for reporting for IC reasons, all accounts who got now locked
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> Irrelevant to your thin ice.
[21:39] <Atanamir> I want this to be corrected
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> I don’t know how much clearer I can make this to you.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> No.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You are persona non grate.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> *grata
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You are very lucky you were locked for 3 days, and not permanently.
[21:39] <Atanamir> so, you, don#t see my point?
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You will take what you get, whether you like it or not.
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> You happened to be right about some of the people who you thought were clanning.
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> That does not make your behaviour any more acceptable.
[21:40] <Atanamir> actually all of them
[21:40] <Atanamir> i am not taliing about the behaviour
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> I am.
[21:40] <Atanamir> i am calling about the line
[21:40] <Atanamir> paranoia
[21:40] <Atanamir> that was insulting
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> You are paranoid.
[21:41] <Atanamir> and as can be seen not correct
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> Every single time you get involved in a war, you start reporting people.
[21:41] <Atanamir> that is not fact and you know that
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> Just because this time there were people out to get you, it doesn’t mean you’re not paranoid.
[21:41] <Atanamir> lol they were out to get the game...
[21:41] <Atanamir> not me or you
[21:41] <Atanamir> we are actually on the same side
[21:41] * Delvin_Anaris laughs
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> It is totally true, and I do know it.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> This discussion is over.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> No, see, we’re not.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Becuase you think it’s *your* job to police the game.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> It’s not.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> It is the Titans’ job
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> and you need to leave it to the Titans.
[21:42] <Atanamir> no, but i think it is to help when i see something.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Not start banning people IC for bogus OOC reasons.
[21:42] <Atanamir> And I was right now.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> The first report you made was fine.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Then you made 3 more reports, and bugged me on IRC, and banned people IC for OOC reasons, and none of that was fine.
[21:42] <Atanamir> i agree on the bans
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> This is over.
[21:43] <Delvin_Anaris> Done.
[21:43] <Atanamir> hey i agree on the bans, again.
[21:43] <Delvin_Anaris> Goodbye.
[21:43] <Atanamir> i want the paranoia thing clarified
[21:43] <Atanamir> it was insulting
[21:43] <Atanamir> and you are insulting to me.
[21:43] <Atanamir> and i gave you no reason for it.
As you see in this example, the hate and hostility I get here from this person, is far away from the BM principle that players and developers should work together. First of all, he doesn’t even tell me I should solve this with Titans but attacks me straight with personal threats. Also, while I write calmly and seek cooperation, Tim explicitly defends and presents his own “us vs them” mentality. I tell him we are on the same side, as the BM front page says as well, he says I am not. I am explaining that I reported these people (which were from my own realm or allied realms) in order to protect the game, he insinuates that I do this out of my paranoia that they are out to get me and I do this in every war against enemy realms. Insinuations over insinuations. He insults me and kept insulting me, I have never read other Titan verdicts which were so much insinuating and insulting to the ruled player’s character. And all I wanted was just an apology for the public defamation, some human understanding.
A copy of this was also sent Tom himself back then, who showed much more understanding for me and who encouraged me to keep helping our developers, while Tim calls this “bugging on IRC”. Since then he also kept ignoring me on IRC when he was though glad to help everyone else when they had questions.
I may add that the “Hagley-bug-affair” was also a result of him marginalizing me from the game. Since the Bugtracker guest account is not working with guest/guest, he didn’t bother to answer me on IRC although he was present. The next logical step was to ask fellow players for their help in my realm, none knew better, so I went to the “enemy” but this party said that Perdan abused bugs, so it would be ok to abuse it if it was a bug at all. So much for willingness of cooperation, but I at least didn’t run immediately to the Titans to report them for bug abuse acusations so they get locked bolted or whatever.
Atanamir..well, for many years he played the game just fine. No problems. Then in the past year or two he somehow managed to change into someone who got permanently banned from the game. I doubt that would have happened had the community around him not also changed.
-Lilwolf
Well, just ask yourself since when Tim took over from Tom. Then you know more. The game has lost a lot from Tom’s character and has become more Tim’s. But probably I am just a paranoid cancer to Tim’s new game.
Good bye.
-
Funny that Alexandros didn't mention his rants against Tim here on the forums, they were quite public and pretty ugly. See, if I were Tim I could see myself responding to the individual who called me all kinds of things with some degree of hostility as well.
Actually, if I were Tim I would probably have banned him right then.
That was a few months ago, you'll find the public warning for that at the following link: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5507.0.html
His behavior in that thread wasn't too much better with the thinly veiled insults.
So no, Alex does not get to complain about getting a hostile reaction from Tim. I've known Tim and worked with him closely for over a decade, and he's not easy to piss off...
-
m2rt, you give a speaking platform to a fool and it poorly reflects upon yourself. If you cannot see that Atanamir is a manipulator and, frankly, a crybaby and a hypocrite for being so easily offended while he offends others by the load, I should review what I think about you. I know you're all about anarchy and whatnot but what you are trying to achieve here is counter-productive for you or for anyone else that vigorously defends Atanamir.
By the way, he was totally paranoia. When he came to me about the Dobromir/Deytheur matter... man, Atanamir has serious issues he needs to address.
-
m2rt, I think you just revealed what kind of person Alex truly was. I think finally we are getting some insights to how paranoid he was. I really hope if we ever see him again, he is more eased up about things.
-
m2rt, you give a speaking platform to a fool and it poorly reflects upon yourself. If you cannot see that Atanamir is a manipulator and, frankly, a crybaby and a hypocrite for being so easily offended while he offends others by the load, I should review what I think about you. I know you're all about anarchy and whatnot but what you are trying to achieve here is counter-productive for you or for anyone else that vigorously defends Atanamir.
By the way, he was totally paranoia. When he came to me about the Dobromir/Deytheur matter... man, Atanamir has serious issues he needs to address.
Hey! Even the most fearsome killer has a right for a last meal. It would be unfair to not give Alex the right for last words. Especially as here, the "other side" is bashing him really well and he has no possibility to defend himself.
-
And that shows you don't understand the situation. There are very few people 'bashing' Atanamir, just trying to explain what happened and the reason he was banned. They have clearly expressed that they believed he could be a nice guy too. You are defending him so fanatically that you can't see past anything than 'Grr the evil developers banned my friend' and are doing all you can to discredit them instead. Clinging to the fact that he reported some of the multicheaters doesn't help when you ignore the rest of the situation. Actually admit maybe he wasn't always the nicest guy to other people, which there is plenty of evidence for. What about Wolfang's post? Don't want to comment on that? He's a neutral person and as far as I know not especially friends with any of the devs and yet I was quite shocked by what he said.
-
And that shows you don't understand the situation. There are very few people 'bashing' Atanamir, just trying to explain what happened and the reason he was banned. They have clearly expressed that they believed he could be a nice guy too. You are defending him so fanatically that you can't see past anything than 'Grr the evil developers banned my friend' and are doing all you can to discredit them instead. Clinging to the fact that he reported some of the multicheaters doesn't help when you ignore the rest of the situation. Actually admit maybe he wasn't always the nicest guy to other people, which there is plenty of evidence for. What about Wolfang's post? Don't want to comment on that? He's a neutral person and as far as I know not especially friends with any of the devs and yet I was quite shocked by what he said.
Yeah. That wasnt nice at all.
We all have our opinions. I was able to vent mine and you were able to vent yours. Done. But in the end battlemaster has lost many players. And thats sad as its already too few to play with.
-
To be quite fair m2rt you simply showed how much restraint Delvin showed in the case of Alex. For him to be that fed up with him and still not ban him from the game shows alot. Also from his words i would like to apologise turned very quickly into 'I was right' you were wrong attitude. Either way that really should have been a clear warning not to do anything wrong for a long time.
All of you even thinking of complaining about Delvin. He puts alot of hours into coding, bug fixes and then also handles social contract issues and such. He should be getting a medal and not being witchhunted by Atanamir's group of friends. From a personal note me and Delvin didnt see eye to eye at one point but I think as a grew up and watch 18 anymore we grew to respect one another.
-
I'd just like to point out a few things about the bogeyman that is the multi. They aren't quite the radioactive menace people think they are. Annoying, yes. Sowers of distrust, sure. But they probably exist in roughly the same proportion as they did when the game had thousands of players. It's just easier to see them now, and their actions have an outsized impact.
Supposing that we need to spend dozens of hours every week (that's probably an accurate estimate) locating and verifying multis in order to create a healthy atmosphere is misguided. It prevents devs from working on useful things. It prevents rulers from focusing on creating international intrigue. It prevents players in the realm from interacting meaningfully. The best advice I can give is to simply ignore the idiots and then watch them get smacked down when they stand up too tall. And they always do. Nobody creates a multi net in pursuit of adequacy. They want to "win".
They can be handled IC, if you have patience and a proper team atmosphere. People understand when something seems fishy. Thalmarkin dealt with it. Others have too. The argument that the judge will get protested out is ludicrous; RE-ELECT THE JUDGE. ELECT ANOTHER JUDGE WHO WILL CONTINUE THE WORK. Complain to the Titans about all those dicks who keep protesting out Judges. The group won't last long.
So, what Alex did was commendable, but it was probably not the best use of his passion. He was hardly even the most diligent among those who regularly ferret out multis. Some of the best at that were, in fact, multis themselves once.
-
Just one thing: Tim doesn't need to help anyone at IRC. He does it because he like it. If he didn't help Atanamir, it was clearly because Atanamir bugged him too much.
Some people assume that if someone else does something voluntarily, after some time it becomes an obligation - and a right of those who benefit of it.
-
I think that everything that needs to be said here, has already been said. Everyone has had their opportunity to state their positions, and refute the positions of others. We're just going to go in circles from here on out.
I, and everyone else involved, regrets the situation that forced this action to be taken. Nevertheless, it was an action that we felt needed to be taken, and nothing new has been revealed that has convinced us otherwise.
-
Oh don't give me the email Tom look. You as well as I do is that hes not going to say anything different. He has personal interests to keep you people happy, while he has zero interest to see me happy or rather he wouldn't even care if I disappeared from this game.
Neither of this is true.
-
So far as I know only two people have ever been told "Go away, and don't ever come back".
This is correct.