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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Varwulf on July 14, 2013, 08:55:11 AM
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This is just an idea I have based on the low number of players on Dwilight. At least in the realm that I am most active in, there are roughly 133% more regions than their are nobles and of the nobles that are there in the realm, very few actually play the game regularly, resulting in mass starvation of regions almost constantly.
I don't know if lifting the restriction would ultimately fix the problem since people would still need to be more active, but it might lead to active players sending more of their characters to the continent.
Anyway, just something I wanted to bring up, it does make Dwilight, at least for me, almost unplayable if the only thing you can do is run around fixing regions from starvation because their lords don't get on enough to buy food.
I do realize that the banker now has access to the food stores of a region but it does require the lords of these regions to allow him to do so, and as such it also requires the banker to be somewhat active.
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Are you playing in Corsanctum ;D? Cause that's the only realm that has such a huge discrepancy between regions and nobles. I actually quite like the 1 character limit, though I would probably shift one of my alts over to Corsanctum just because it's so empty compared to it's size...
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Most realms don't have this problem, and I enjoy the one character rule, it keeps things interesting.
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I think all the continents should have only one noble per family...
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I think all the continents should have only one noble per family...
+1.
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I think the 1 character rule on Dwilight is important to define an important part of what Dwilight is.
If you want to not play in the environment you described there are always alternative continents to play on, or even alternative realms on Dwilight which aren't in that same situation.
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We had the same issue in Terran actually, but I quite like the one-character rule. Dwilight wouldn't be the same without it.
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That rule of 1player only in Dwilight, may have been good when the number of active players in Battlemaster was more. At the present state, it is just making players leave Dwilight because of all the inactivity and the very few players. You want to get more people playing battlemaster then remove such rules hindering gameplay. Or you will just end with Dwilight having just a group of players only interested in ranting about in a religious forum and nothing else and even the active players will loose interest in playing in Dwilight.
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That rule of 1player only in Dwilight, may have been good when the number of active players in Battlemaster was more. At the present state, it is just making players leave Dwilight because of all the inactivity and the very few players. You want to get more people playing battlemaster then remove such rules hindering gameplay. Or you will just end with Dwilight having just a group of players only interested in ranting about in a religious forum and nothing else and even the active players will loose interest in playing in Dwilight.
There are many active realms that do quite well without Sanguis Astroism. Luria Nova's nobility isn't majority Astroist, its very active. Fissoa... Niselur is very active in realm, D'hara...
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We took some measures of continent retention and activity not too long ago, and Dwilight was the continent that did best in these.
So no, the 1-character-per-player rule is not, in fact, hurting Dwilight.
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Remember that Dwilight was originally this wild land, roamed by herds of hundreds of monsters and shuffles of hundreds of zombies. There were only 4 realms, and people had a lot of fun claiming rogue regions for the first time.
Anyway, my point is, you don't have to have 133% more regions than nobles. Let the regions go rogue.
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Yeah thats what is going to happen and with that a bunch of players playing for that realm will go rogue as well..
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Then make something happen and draw some nobles to it. Niselur has done very well lately, Asylon, Luria...
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Then make something happen and draw some nobles to it. Niselur has done very well lately, Asylon, Luria...
Apparently you are unfamiliar with Morek's current diplomatic situation then :P
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I also think one char per continent makes things more interesting but, some continents would suffer from it.
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Apparently you are unfamiliar with Morek's current diplomatic situation then :P
I am very aware of it, and can tell you, things can be done to fix the place. The war is a good start.
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There are two reasons why this is hurting Dwilight.
The first is that everybody is a lord and so the feudal ladder has had rungs removed. Nobody has knights. This reduces the value of higher titles because there are so many to go around. When everybody is a Duke, Dukes ain't special.
The second is that everybody has only one or two neighbors rather than the four or five neighbors you might have on other continents. Combine this with the difficulty of moving long distances (however justified it may be) and you have incentivized everyone to park themselves in the richest region they can find and send money home to their family rather than doing anything, because doing anything takes much longer and it is pretty difficult to have an impact. Not impossible as there are some dedicated players there who will work around these things.
The rule was a worthy experiment and would be a good idea were the player population twice what it is. I don't have a pony in the race and you could make a case that the damage this rule does is worth the benefit it brings .. rather than plugging your ears and insisting that it doesn't cause any harm.
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The rule was a worthy experiment and would be a good idea were the player population twice what it is. I don't have a pony in the race and you could make a case that the damage this rule does is worth the benefit it brings .. rather than plugging your ears and insisting that it doesn't cause any harm.
Dwilight is still the place I have the most fun playing, by far. I don't know how much the one-player rule is a cause of that. It's certainly not the only cause, and it could very well be that it is in fact a minor aspect. However I still prefer to keep what sets Dwilight apart rather than uniformising it with the other continents, because I fear that the only way it can go is down.
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I feel if we allow two nobles on Dwilight the place will soon be overrun with alts that no one cares about who are just there to lead troops and hold an estate. I don't want more worthless Knights on Dwilight. Part of the reason Dwilight is interesting is because everyone only has one character there to focus their play on the continent. The stakes are somewhat higher as a result.
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I agree 100% with Stabbity. The important thing about Dwilight is that there are NO nobles who are simply there to wield a sword while another character of that player actually is a real RP'ed character.
That is what makes Dwilight unique and we ought not to lose that.
Ideally we'd spread the 1 character per continent rule to all continents.
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I agree 100% with Stabbity. The important thing about Dwilight is that there are NO nobles who are simply there to wield a sword while another character of that player actually is a real RP'ed character.
That is what makes Dwilight unique and we ought not to lose that.
Ideally we'd spread the 1 character per continent rule to all continents.
Ehhhhhhh I'd hate ALL continents to have it. I like playing two characters on the same island from time to time.
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There are two reasons why this is hurting Dwilight.
The first is that everybody is a lord and so the feudal ladder has had rungs removed. Nobody has knights. This reduces the value of higher titles because there are so many to go around. When everybody is a Duke, Dukes ain't special.
You are ignoring the fact that the overall character count in Battlemaster is basically a zero sum game. There are only so many players and so many characters, and this restriction or the lifting thereof will logically have little to no effect on that issue. Therefore, if you lift this restriction on Dwilight, all the extra characters that you hope will appear are going to come mostly at the expense of other islands if they come at all. If they come in large enough numbers to address the problem you've identified here, you're probably going to end up creating that very same problem on some other island(s) as a result. Considering the size of Dwilight, truly ameliorating this issue would probably involve stripping several other islands bare of characters, so the more likely result of ending the one-character limit is that it doesn't make much of a difference on Dwilight but does have a discernible negative impact elsewhere.
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...you could make a case that the damage this rule does is worth the benefit it brings .. rather than plugging your ears and insisting that it doesn't cause any harm.
I will agree that, from a certain perspective, this rule could be considered to be "hurting Dwilight". There is definitely a lower character count on Dwilight than there could be if we lifted the rule. We could potentially see player densities as high as other islands if we did. And to be completely truthful, the lower player densities do have a negative effect on the island.
For myself, though, I think that the disadvantages of the lower player density are well worth what we get in return. From a player standpoint you get the knowledge that each character is a unique character with their individual motivations. You don't get the zombies, alts, and second-character-sheeple which drive those higher densities. You generally don't have those secret ties between realms that are defined and cast in concrete due to second characters in the other realm. (Yes, you can still have secret alliances. But secret alliances worked out between multiple players are much, much different than secret alliances that exist because John Doe plays the power character that runs two different realms.) You don't get realms propped up by 5 of the 7 players in the realm bringing in a second character. (Although you still do get those people that start an advy, move him to their realm, and then use that advy as a proxy for their noble under the guise of "I'm Lord Kepler's messenger"... >:( )
The first is that everybody is a lord and so the feudal ladder has had rungs removed. Nobody has knights. This reduces the value of higher titles because there are so many to go around. When everybody is a Duke, Dukes ain't special.
I partially agree with this. We do have a lot of lords. But then again, a lot of players don't bother going for those higher offices simply because they don't want the hassle/responsibility. I have passed up multiple council positions and influential religious positions simply because I don't have the time, even on other islands with higher character densities. I would bet that almost every other player does the same thing. Dropping the one-character restrictions may slightly increase competition for positions on Dwilight a bit. But it would also drop competition on other islands as well, as people leave those islands to bring a second character to Dwilight.
So yes, I agree that there are some negative aspects to the one-character rule for Dwilight. But I think the positive aspects it brings to Dwilight more than compensate, resulting in a net positive. If you don't like the resulting lower player density, then there are plenty of other islands to choose from.
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To be fair, it isn't the 'one character per player' rule necessarily that is hurting the feudal hierarchy, it's just the shortage of characters of which this rule is one but hardly the only cause. Yes you do get zombie alts on other continents but my experience is that most people legitimately want to have two separate experiences, as we've all see how two realms on the same continent can be like playing two different games - just as a single realm with only 15 people in it is pretty dull even if those 15 people are good players. You can't have really interesting politics when a voting bloc is three people.
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I feel being restricted to a single experience at a time on Dwilight is part of its allure. You get really unique cultures as a result, and they feel more than just tacked on oddities written about in dialogue than anything else. Dwilight is one of the few places where you can have culture shock when interacting with different realms.
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To be fair, it isn't the 'one character per player' rule necessarily that is hurting the feudal hierarchy, it's just the shortage of characters of which this rule is one but hardly the only cause. Yes you do get zombie alts on other continents but my experience is that most people legitimately want to have two separate experiences, as we've all see how two realms on the same continent can be like playing two different games - just as a single realm with only 15 people in it is pretty dull even if those 15 people are good players. You can't have really interesting politics when a voting bloc is three people.
The real solution to this is to increase the player count, but I think we all know that that's a problem. Unfortunately, it's not one with an easy fix, but it is one that has been discussed elsewhere.
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I like the status quo.
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I like the rule.
The benefits outweigh the negatives of it. I don't think removing the rule on Dwilight would add much anything of value.
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If the issue is noble density in available regions, there is the other variable too. You could always reduce available regions. If noble count increases, free them.
Do this by tweaking monster spawns. Increase until balance is found, then decrease. Let weak realms die and become wildlands.
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^I do like the idea of increased spawns. Dwilight should be something of a dangerous wilderness anyway.
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We should do this on all islands. :D
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Aye, Dwilight was more fun to me when monsters still posed a significant threat. No peace for mankind!
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There are two reasons why this is hurting Dwilight.
The first is that everybody is a lord and so the feudal ladder has had rungs removed. Nobody has knights. This reduces the value of higher titles because there are so many to go around. When everybody is a Duke, Dukes ain't special.
The second is that everybody has only one or two neighbors rather than the four or five neighbors you might have on other continents. Combine this with the difficulty of moving long distances (however justified it may be) and you have incentivized everyone to park themselves in the richest region they can find and send money home to their family rather than doing anything, because doing anything takes much longer and it is pretty difficult to have an impact. Not impossible as there are some dedicated players there who will work around these things.
The rule was a worthy experiment and would be a good idea were the player population twice what it is. I don't have a pony in the race and you could make a case that the damage this rule does is worth the benefit it brings .. rather than plugging your ears and insisting that it doesn't cause any harm.
1. That is only true for the more boring realms. D'hara has half its realm being knights, probably the same for LN too. If you want more characters in your realm, make it a better place and recruit IG or OOG. There is nothing wrong with recruiting specifically for a certain realm, but unless they are already playing BM I find it best to convince them that BM is great game, and your realm is the perfect place to see that then trying to convince just that they will have a lot of fun in your realm.
2. Only Libero has one neighbor and while the other corner realms only have 2 they neighbor, they have others that are in their sphere of influence. When I checked AT it roughly 3 on average while Dwilight has probably closer to 2. (More of an estimation than an actual calculation)
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1 character restriction is a great thing for Dwilight, I wish they would add death to the world (through old age or human vs hman battles).
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Would you feel better about the 1 character restriction if you could then have 1 character on EVERY island?
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1. That is only true for the more boring realms. D'hara has half its realm being knights, probably the same for LN too. If you want more characters in your realm, make it a better place and recruit IG or OOG. There is nothing wrong with recruiting specifically for a certain realm, but unless they are already playing BM I find it best to convince them that BM is great game, and your realm is the perfect place to see that then trying to convince just that they will have a lot of fun in your realm.
2. Only Libero has one neighbor and while the other corner realms only have 2 they neighbor, they have others that are in their sphere of influence. When I checked AT it roughly 3 on average while Dwilight has probably closer to 2. (More of an estimation than an actual calculation)
In D'Hara, barely any of our lordship elections get more than one candidate, and barely any of them ever write for their candidacy, and if they do, very rarely more than 1 letter. We might have more knights than some other realms, but we are still in shortage of knights and it does undermine what being a lord is all about, because we regularly elect lords who don't give a damn, never really do anything, and let their regions fall into starvation when there's plenty of food in neighboring regions. Our higher knight density has allowed us to take more land, but hasn't really increased much of anything else, as we spread ourselves as thin as our noble count allows. So I'll have to agree with Scarlett, titles feel meaningless because of how easy it is to get them. I don't think lifting the character limit is the solution, though.
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Aye, Dwilight was more fun to me when monsters still posed a significant threat. No peace for mankind!
Likewise.
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In D'Hara, barely any of our lordship elections get more than one candidate, and barely any of them ever write for their candidacy, and if they do, very rarely more than 1 letter. We might have more knights than some other realms, but we are still in shortage of knights and it does undermine what being a lord is all about, because we regularly elect lords who don't give a damn, never really do anything, and let their regions fall into starvation when there's plenty of food in neighboring regions. Our higher knight density has allowed us to take more land, but hasn't really increased much of anything else, as we spread ourselves as thin as our noble count allows. So I'll have to agree with Scarlett, titles feel meaningless because of how easy it is to get them. I don't think lifting the character limit is the solution, though.
have you tried removing elections?
Only appoint lords who are going to contribute as lords. If there are none that fit that bill, then don't make the appointment. Leave the region lordless.
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In D'Hara, barely any of our lordship elections get more than one candidate, and barely any of them ever write for their candidacy, and if they do, very rarely more than 1 letter.
I find this to be a near universal truth. Few lordship elections ever attract more than one or two candidates, and there is rarely ever any controversy or discussion about it. If there are a few candidates then you may get an endorsement letter or two from some interested parties.
I do agree that this could be due to the wide availability of titles. Getting a lordship really isn't all that big of a deal, unless it's for an important (i.e. rich) region. If it were difficult to get lordships, then perhaps it would lead to more involvement in elections. But this ties back to the whole player density thing. Increasing character count won't do anything about it, unless it is a result of increasing player count.
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Well, in Barca we're having some interesting elections right now. Every region is getting several candidates and everyone is writing for their candidacies, but I understand this is a rather unique situation right now. I'm sure things will quieten down once we have conquered most of the provinces, and that the noble density lowers.
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have you tried removing elections?
Only appoint lords who are going to contribute as lords. If there are none that fit that bill, then don't make the appointment. Leave the region lordless.
Right, because no lord is so much better than a lazy lord...
I find this to be a near universal truth. Few lordship elections ever attract more than one or two candidates, and there is rarely ever any controversy or discussion about it. If there are a few candidates then you may get an endorsement letter or two from some interested parties.
I do agree that this could be due to the wide availability of titles. Getting a lordship really isn't all that big of a deal, unless it's for an important (i.e. rich) region. If it were difficult to get lordships, then perhaps it would lead to more involvement in elections. But this ties back to the whole player density thing. Increasing character count won't do anything about it, unless it is a result of increasing player count.
Indeed, character count won't change anything, because a ton of people are content with having 1 lord and 1 knight, so all of their extra knights wouldn't actually campaign for lordships and as such the demand for lordships will remain essentially the same. Likewise, those who already don't really care for a lordship won't really mind to have 2 knights. It could perhaps allow a few of the more ambitious to have both characters lords, but I doubt the impact would be worth the costs of such a measure.
Back in the days, getting a lordship used to be hard, used to be long. Nowadays, nearly all realms can advertize "Hey, join us, we have like 5 empty lordships and newbies can usually become lords within a week!", or just about.
Well, in Barca we're having some interesting elections right now. Every region is getting several candidates and everyone is writing for their candidacies, but I understand this is a rather unique situation right now. I'm sure things will quieten down once we have conquered most of the provinces, and that the noble density lowers.
There's probably special interest for some of the regions you took back, but indeed, if you keep on expanding to the rest of the peninsula... you'll be spreading yourselves thin and seeing the same.
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Right, because no lord is so much better than a lazy lord...
Totally. Because in one week, an active Lord may step up, but then you're stuck with a lazy one because you couldn't go one week without the 50 extra gold the lazy one earned the realm.
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Right, because no lord is so much better than a lazy lord...
Um, actually it is.
Your realm still receives the gold from the region. You get only a fraction of the taxes, but you aren't gaining that much more efficiency wise if there is only a lord with no knights.
Plus with a system that promotes only giving positions to those that deserve it, maybe people will start stepping up and proving themselves.
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The only two terms of Lordship I've ever had were self-terminated when I drove my regions to go rogue out of spite. So, if others are like me, it may be a good idea to exercise caution when giving out Lordships. No Lord is better than a spiteful Lord.
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I would put all of my characters on Dwilight if I could.
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Moderator note:
Discussion of number of characters moved to here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4933.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4933.0.html)