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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Dante Silverfire on January 31, 2012, 05:25:07 AM
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So, I am wondering about how a particular situation may be thought of in relation to the IR. One of my characters, and many players in the realm that I play in are quite bored and I have been trying to think of something which could increase the fun and interaction for the characters and players involved.
One idea that came to me was that of a realm theme. Realm themes have been used in the past to give specific realms particular feels of RP as well as in game intent of actions which allows the players to more easily RP and develop character interaction. (Examples include: Darka as a mercenary realm, and Vikings in Norland/BoM on Atamara)
So, the idea that I was considering was that of a politically neutral infiltrator/assassin realm. The idea would be that it would be perhaps a theocracy dedicated towards some sort of religion based around a "death god". Being an infiltrator and carrying out assassinations would be considered a type of worship in this religion. The religion would be open to nobles of all classes, but advancement would be limited depending upon whether one was an infiltrator or Priest, or otherwise.
In addition, the realm would be open to nobles of any and all classes, but the roles that they would fulfill would simply be different than they may find in other realms if they were the same class.
Infiltrators would receive increased funding, and governmental protection as well as working directly as the sort of "military" of the realm, as the government would take private contracts from individuals up to realm governments and then the realm would choose infiltrators specifically for each contract to carry out.
Courtiers would operate pretty much the same as they do now, caring for the realm regions and otherwise.
Traders would also be able to operate the same as now, to bring food and gold into the realm and could receive extra government funding if needed.
Priests would be operating under the religion of the government to spread the religion and gain firm hold over the peasantry, but would also be revered somewhat by the realm on a similar level as infiltrators.
Warriors are really the only class which would operate significantly different. The realm would not operate an army in the same way that all other realms currently do. Those who chose to be warriors would be free to do so, but receive somewhat less funding than those who took the infiltrator path. These warriors could act as mercenaries for other realms or simply go and fight alongside foreign armies as they chose.
I'm not sure how such a situation would be looked upon and if this would be considered any type of IR breach. My gut instinct is that since each player is still free to choose their own class, but would simply operate in a different manner than if they were that class in another realm, that it would be acceptable. But, I do want to know ahead of time, because taking such a course of action and then apparently breaking a rule in doing so would not be good.
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So, I am wondering about how a particular situation may be thought of in relation to the IR. One of my characters, and many players in the realm that I play in are quite bored and I have been trying to think of something which could increase the fun and interaction for the characters and players involved.
One idea that came to me was that of a realm theme. Realm themes have been used in the past to give specific realms particular feels of RP as well as in game intent of actions which allows the players to more easily RP and develop character interaction. (Examples include: Darka as a mercenary realm, and Vikings in Norland/BoM on Atamara)
So, the idea that I was considering was that of a politically neutral infiltrator/assassin realm. The idea would be that it would be perhaps a theocracy dedicated towards some sort of religion based around a "death god". Being an infiltrator and carrying out assassinations would be considered a type of worship in this religion. The religion would be open to nobles of all classes, but advancement would be limited depending upon whether one was an infiltrator or Priest, or otherwise.
In addition, the realm would be open to nobles of any and all classes, but the roles that they would fulfill would simply be different than they may find in other realms if they were the same class.
Infiltrators would receive increased funding, and governmental protection as well as working directly as the sort of "military" of the realm, as the government would take private contracts from individuals up to realm governments and then the realm would choose infiltrators specifically for each contract to carry out.
Courtiers would operate pretty much the same as they do now, caring for the realm regions and otherwise.
Traders would also be able to operate the same as now, to bring food and gold into the realm and could receive extra government funding if needed.
Priests would be operating under the religion of the government to spread the religion and gain firm hold over the peasantry, but would also be revered somewhat by the realm on a similar level as infiltrators.
Warriors are really the only class which would operate significantly different. The realm would not operate an army in the same way that all other realms currently do. Those who chose to be warriors would be free to do so, but receive somewhat less funding than those who took the infiltrator path. These warriors could act as mercenaries for other realms or simply go and fight alongside foreign armies as they chose.
I'm not sure how such a situation would be looked upon and if this would be considered any type of IR breach. My gut instinct is that since each player is still free to choose their own class, but would simply operate in a different manner than if they were that class in another realm, that it would be acceptable. But, I do want to know ahead of time, because taking such a course of action and then apparently breaking a rule in doing so would not be good.
Can't see a problem myself, at least with respect to the IR.
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Me neither. Just don't tell anyone they have to be a certain class for any reason.
In fact, I would also stay away from telling people things along the lines of "You will get less gold if you are a warrior". Just make it a policy to give the infiltrators more money and advertise that fact. No need to put it any other way.
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Me neither. Just don't tell anyone they have to be a certain class for any reason.
In fact, I would also stay away from telling people things along the lines of "You will get less gold if you are a warrior". Just make it a policy to give the infiltrators more money and advertise that fact. No need to put it any other way.
Exactly. In most realms no one says, infils will get less gold, hell if they find the right sponsor there is often tons of gold available. What people do is to make a realm policy of supporting those warriors on the front line. If your main money holders, IE Dukes are behind funding infils, then it will just happen.
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This sound almost similar to Assassins realm on Colonies island. The realm where all, if not, most infiltrators who have been deported from other islands go to ;)
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It sounds remarkably similar to the realm that Arcaea intends to set up on the Darke Isle on FEI when they finally finish off Arcachon. It is an ideal place for it. The physical isolation will be important. Infiltrators have a nasty habit of making people angry. I'm not so sure you could pull it off with a realm that is exposed to their neighbors as much as is usual.
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Positive incentives to make less-popular classes more used are fine, IMHO.
So, "Change your class!" is not fine, but, "I will give you twice as big an oath if you become an infiltrator," seems fine.
Or, rather, maybe, "I will give someone a bigger oath if they become an infiltrator," so that it's not a specific individual.
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If you want to do this, just go join the Assassins. They could use more players.
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It sounds remarkably similar to the realm that Arcaea intends to set up on the Darke Isle on FEI when they finally finish off Arcachon. It is an ideal place for it. The physical isolation will be important. Infiltrators have a nasty habit of making people angry. I'm not so sure you could pull it off with a realm that is exposed to their neighbors as much as is usual.
I'm not sure that plan is all that functional right now. Arcaea has lost a lot of the core infil characters and the war has dragged on for so long I don't even know which colonist are left.
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Positive incentives to make less-popular classes more used are fine, IMHO.
So, "Change your class!" is not fine, but, "I will give you twice as big an oath if you become an infiltrator," seems fine.
Or, rather, maybe, "I will give someone a bigger oath if they become an infiltrator," so that it's not a specific individual.
Offering gold to people as an incentive to try and get more of a certain class is a specifically allowed activity. Hell, there used to be an option in the old tax system to assign weights to classes. I really miss the old tax system some days...
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It sure did fuel some massive war machines, didn't it?
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I'm doubting if such realm would be viable, though. Sure, assasins have their use, but not so in great numbers. Think of an army consisting of only shock troops, or an FPS crew of only snipers ...
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I'm doubting if such realm would be viable, though. Sure, assasins have their use, but not so in great numbers. Think of an army consisting of only shock troops, or an FPS crew of only snipers ...
I feel we're forgetting counter-strike here...
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I'm doubting if such realm would be viable, though. Sure, assasins have their use, but not so in great numbers. Think of an army consisting of only shock troops, or an FPS crew of only snipers ...
It is viable. What you need though is VERY good diplomacy. The idea of setting up such a realm on the north island of FEI was viable for example, because Arcaea was willing to shield the realm. Thing might change of course, but that is the nature of diplomacy. Depending on the cultures of the island, once you get a reputation for being impartial and taking all reasonable bounties, you might just carve a niche for yourself.
The thing to consider is that the realm would need a vibrant internal culture. Often the infils might not be needed by other powers, so you are going to need something to do, realm RP, infighting whatever.
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so you are going to need something to do, realm RP, infighting whatever.
Stabbing contests?
Spin the poisoned dagger?
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Stabbing contests?
Games for young infiltrators:
Duck, duck, stab!
Pin the Tail on Duke (with a knife!)
Musical Road Signs
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Games for young infiltrators:
Duck, duck, stab!
Pin the Tail on Duke (with a knife!)
Musical Road Signs
Rock, paper, very sharp scissors.
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Now I want an infil again....
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Rock, paper, very sharp scissors.
Hide and seek.
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What will they do once 80% of infiltrators have a ban on their head?
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What will they do once 80% of infiltrators have a ban on their head?
Become Ambassadors?
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What will they do once 80% of infiltrators have a ban on their head?
Start bribing judges to lift the bans. The ruler of this realm would need to be a *masterful* diplomat, but if you can pull off the truly neutral thing, you can always offer your services in return for lifting bans. As long as people truly believe that you are impartial and can serve them just as well as you served their enemies, you might actually be able to do these kinds of things and have people cut you some slack.
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Start bribing judges to lift the bans. The ruler of this realm would need to be a *masterful* diplomat, but if you can pull off the truly neutral thing, you can always offer your services in return for lifting bans. As long as people truly believe that you are impartial and can serve them just as well as you served their enemies, you might actually be able to do these kinds of things and have people cut you some slack.
Yep, that'd be the idea. If a realm has a ban on one of "our" infiltrators, then we would include the removal of such a ban in the next contract with that realm, and the gold price of any action would be greatly reduced because of it.
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If you ever actually get it started, I'd probably join. I've been waiting for the one on FEI to start. But I don't think it ever will.
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I probably would too. Don't even know if I'd play an infiltrator though or if I'd shoot for ambassador and run around negotiating all those contracts.
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If you ever actually get it started, I'd probably join. I've been waiting for the one on FEI to start. But I don't think it ever will.
Probably not, The infils that were going to start it have either been executed or paused :)
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I probably would too. Don't even know if I'd play an infiltrator though or if I'd shoot for ambassador and run around negotiating all those contracts.
My thought exactly.
An infil realm would need lots of ambassadors.
Is I/D a possible class? That would be AWESOMELY entertaining to play.
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My thought exactly.
An infil realm would need lots of ambassadors.
Is I/D a possible class? That would be AWESOMELY entertaining to play.
Nope, both are sub classes.
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My thought exactly.
An infil realm would need lots of ambassadors.
Is I/D a possible class? That would be AWESOMELY entertaining to play.
If ambassadors could be given gold by being in another realm then yes. Otherwise, I don't see how an ambassador is necessary when the Ruler can simply take all offers.
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If ambassadors could be given gold by being in another realm then yes. Otherwise, I don't see how an ambassador is necessary when the Ruler can simply take all offers.
Because there should be a massive amount of diplo worked need to smooth relations. A super active ruler, like Jenred in his prime might be able to handle the volume of messages and responses needed, otherwise trusted ambassadors will be needed to settle things when people object to certain contracts being fulfilled.
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Because there should be a massive amount of diplo worked need to smooth relations. A super active ruler, like Jenred in his prime might be able to handle the volume of messages and responses needed, otherwise trusted ambassadors will be needed to settle things when people object to certain contracts being fulfilled.
Fair enough. Let's just say that if "I" happened to be the ruler, it should be enough. Otherwise, you need someone just as active. Plus all of that diplo is what I have the most fun with.
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If ambassadors could be given gold by being in another realm then yes. Otherwise, I don't see how an ambassador is necessary when the Ruler can simply take all offers.
You can also think of them as 'traveling salesmen'. Why, the Duke of Keplerville might not even know he wants someone assassinated until the Ambassador of our new realm shows up to drop a few innuendos. Then there's the traditional role of diplomats of gathering information and politicking. Stirring up intrigue wherever possible is just good business for a realm full of infiltrators, and you'd damn well better be one of the most well-informed realms on the island. You'd need to be able to see conflicts and alliances coming. Hell if I had the people to do it, I'd stick an Ambassador on station in every realm on the island with orders to hobnob and build local contact networks. Ambassadors are also an excellent vehicle through which to dispense bribes for all sorts of purposes.
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Hell if I had the people to do it, I'd stick an Ambassador on station in every realm on the island with orders to hobnob and build local contact networks.
I think we'd all like to have enough characters in our realms that we could send a dozen people out of the realm...
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I think we'd all like to have enough characters in our realms that we could send a dozen people out of the realm...
Well technically, the realm would literally have next to no one inside the realm if done right. I mean the council members (which are barred from being assassins) and perhaps a Duke seeking to protect the city in case surprise attacked, would probably be all that stay in the realm for long durations.
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Well technically, the realm would literally have next to no one inside the realm if done right. I mean the council members (which are barred from being assassins) and perhaps a Duke seeking to protect the city in case surprise attacked, would probably be all that stay in the realm for long durations.
A good place for this realm would be Obsidian Islands, EC:
1) No one else wants those crappy regions anyway.
2) There's only two ways on or off them. Make a couple of friends and you're practically invasion-proof.
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A good place for this realm would be Obsidian Islands, EC:
1) No one else wants those crappy regions anyway.
2) There's only two ways on or off them. Make a couple of friends and you're practically invasion-proof.
I don't understand why everyone would want to invade a nice, peaceful, heavily infiltration lad realm? Its not like we are committing any offenses worthy of war ever. I mean, who doesn't need a nice little knife in the back of your rulers/dukes every once in a while?
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I don't understand why everyone would want to invade a nice, peaceful, heavily infiltration lad realm? Its not like we are committing any offenses worthy of war ever. I mean, who doesn't need a nice little knife in the back of your rulers/dukes every once in a while?
Anyone who fancies a new duchy, for starters. And if you really go that heavily in favor of non-warrior classes to the point that your army is practically non-existent, you're going to be a tempting target. Diplomacy can work wonders, but there's always the chance that you'll fail, in which case having geographical isolation and/or choke points is a huge plus.
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Anyone who fancies a new duchy, for starters. And if you really go that heavily in favor of non-warrior classes to the point that your army is practically non-existent, you're going to be a tempting target. Diplomacy can work wonders, but there's always the chance that you'll fail, in which case having geographical isolation and/or choke points is a huge plus.
I know, I agree. But I also think there is some fun in the risk.
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Why, the Duke of Keplerville might not even know he wants someone assassinated until the Ambassador of our new realm shows up to drop a few innuendos.
I just hurt myself rolling off my couch from laughter at this.
Well technically, the realm would literally have next to no one inside the realm if done right. I mean the council members (which are barred from being assassins) and perhaps a Duke seeking to protect the city in case surprise attacked, would probably be all that stay in the realm for long durations.
Yeah; maybe have tag-team duos: assign an ambassador and an infil to each "client." Task them with finding contracts, collecting bounties, etc. And, honestly, I don't think it would become a huge target. It wouldn't need to be a geographically large, or even a particularly rich realm. Provided its lands are not that good, larger realms might reasonably find it less trouble to hire out/buy off a swarm of infils than provoke them by sieging their castle.
I would TOTALLY join this realm. I have the characters available to do it too.
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The only issue, is that the place where I wanted originally to found it, I'm gonna find it hard to create an IC reason enough to convince those that need to be convinced to let it happen. I know for sure that just by making the realm I"ll piss off some very powerful people.
My other idea was to create it in BR on Dwilight. That also has its issues. Might just need to create a new character to pull that one off though, since my other one has some "likability" issues. Only problem is, do you need a certain prestige/honor to be made ruler? What about Duke? (Could a Duke then secede to become a ruler even if he doesn't have the requisite prestige).
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My other idea was to create it in BR on Dwilight. That also has its issues.
Dwilight is the wrong place for this, I would think. (At least so long as it isn't "full", and has lots of open conflicts.) Atamara might be the best place, actually. Lots of room, lots of realms. Geography isn't all that good, though.
Only problem is, do you need a certain prestige/honor to be made ruler? What about Duke? (Could a Duke then secede to become a ruler even if he doesn't have the requisite prestige).
5 prestige for duke, I think. Secession bypasses some of the checks/interlocks for council-level positions. Secession should be possible, so long as you're duke.
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Anyone who fancies a new duchy, for starters. And if you really go that heavily in favor of non-warrior classes to the point that your army is practically non-existent, you're going to be a tempting target. Diplomacy can work wonders, but there's always the chance that you'll fail, in which case having geographical isolation and/or choke points is a huge plus.
Actually, you can still recruit enough men as an infiltrator to be useful in an army. I've had over 40 men several times as an infiltrator.
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Actually, you can still recruit enough men as an infiltrator to be useful in an army. I've had over 40 men several times as an infiltrator.
Yes, but any infiltrator doing the warrior thing is not going to be out fulfilling contracts. Sure, you can undertake missions with a unit, but getting in and out of a realm ("infiltrating" it) is quite a bit more difficult with a unit in tow; for one thing you can be attacked even by realms not at war with yours (murderous settings, and I would definitely consider it if a random unit from that infiltrator realm was wandering around in my country), plus you'll also be waylaid by monsters and undead on the way. And you have to pay them and keep them happy and their equipment repaired, which greatly reduces your time in the field. And finally it slows you down.
In an emergency you can call them home and they can recruit units, but you're unlikely to have much of a standing army if your infiltrators are actually out infiltrating.
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I didn't say it was practical, merely possible.
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It would be interesting to see a group of 10-15 infils assaulting an army of 20 nobles (10K CS +/-).
What would be the outcome? Can some one calculate the possibilities of success of those Infils?
But too bad that there is a disadvantage for the stealth class, it would be more interesting if the Infiltrators couldn't be executed but just thrown in jail, otherwise it wouldn't be fun.
That and other details.
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It would be interesting to see a group of 10-15 infils assaulting an army of 20 nobles (10K CS +/-).
What would be the outcome? Can some one calculate the possibilities of success of those Infils?
Too many variables. Relative skills (swords and infiltration), troop sizes, guard activity, patroling activity, etc.
One thing that I have seen done, though, is for infils traveling with the army is to wait until after a battle. Then stab the people who's troops were scattered or retreated. Keeps them from rallying their troops for the second round. With some luck on your side, two or three skilled infils could possibly take out 6 or more enemy nobles, and make a significant dent in the enemy's second-round punch.
But too bad that there is a disadvantage for the stealth class, it would be more interesting if the Infiltrators couldn't be executed but just thrown in jail, otherwise it wouldn't be fun.
Not sure what you mean with this. Infils are no more freely executable than any other class. You can't be executed unless you have a pre-existing ban.
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What Indirik says. Infiltrators are no more executable than any other class, they still require a ban. It's just that they often have that ban already...
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Too many variables. Relative skills (swords and infiltration), troop sizes, guard activity, patroling activity, etc.
One thing that I have seen done, though, is for infils traveling with the army is to wait until after a battle. Then stab the people who's troops were scattered or retreated. Keeps them from rallying their troops for the second round. With some luck on your side, two or three skilled infils could possibly take out 6 or more enemy nobles, and make a significant dent in the enemy's second-round punch.
Even better is right before you make a major strategy change. One of the most glorious things I ever saw was back in '06 when the Abington/Carelia/RedSpan alliance managed to assassinate all the generals and most of the marshals of the opposing force in the same day, and then radically changed plans while they were still wounded.
Now, admittedly, pulling that off got half a dozen infils banned and one or two others executed, and the successes were turned shortly when ASI and the Eastern Alliance attacked, but it was still amazing.
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Not sure what you mean with this. Infils are no more freely executable than any other class. You can't be executed unless you have a pre-existing ban.
But i refer to failed attempts, remember we are talking about a mainly infiltrator army defending themselves again another army with Archer, Cavalry and Infantry.
They advantage is the surprise, so they would have to attack first, also the early disadvantage that i mentioned before was about the chances the infiltrators have to be captured either they have success or fail.
Since i never made an Infiltrator my worry is if the infiltrator can get a ban every time they get captured, since captured nobles cant be banned, so I wonder what are the situation where infiltrator get banned.
Peace!
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An Infiltrator Army would also have Archers, Cavalry and Infantry. While they might not be as strong as an Army composed out of more battle-focused classes, their strength should come out of the disruption and chaos they can cause next to it (Stealing Tax Gold for extra income, stealing/burning food, lowering militia, destroying fortifications, stabbing Nobles, delaying travel). So an Infiltrator Army probably should not focus on attacking the enemy head-on in battles, but seek their advantage through such options and slowly whittle down the enemy while avoiding the big blobs attacking each other, at least not until their actions take effect.
But yes, lifting bans etc. would be a major diplomatic point and challenge for such a Realm. And lifting bans should probably be on the top of the list for any negotiations of any kind between realms (Prisoner Agreements etc.)
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Don't forget that any infiltrator laden realm will have the most waylaid signs you've ever seen. Good luck getting to an attack on time with 10 infiltrators messing with the roads. Assault their city and only half of your troops arrive on time? That's not good...
Your a realm under attack? Hire 5 infiltrators to tag along with your army to mess with the enemy before, during, and after attacks.
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Don't forget that any infiltrator laden realm will have the most waylaid signs you've ever seen. Good luck getting to an attack on time with 10 infiltrators messing with the roads. Assault their city and only half of your troops arrive on time? That's not good...
Your a realm under attack? Hire 5 infiltrators to tag along with your army to mess with the enemy before, during, and after attacks.
Indeed; I would think that the realm's main contracts would not be assassinations, but food burnings and road tampering. Those make far more sense: more estimable returns to the service, more reliably successful, and less risk for the infiltrator. I would see assassinations as kind of "bonus pay" for infils as they rack up bounties.
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Since i never made an Infiltrator my worry is if the infiltrator can get a ban every time they get captured
The way in which you end up in prison determines whether or not you can be banned. An infiltrator can only be banned if they are captured while performing an infiltrator action. If they are caught in battle like a regular noble, then they cannot be banned. (But they could be executed if they were previously banned. Which also holds true of regular nobles.)
Infiltrators have increased chances of escaping from prison, as well. It is possible for them to escape before they can be banned. For more skilled infiltrators this is a common occurrence. Like all noble,s they also get a last chance to escape when an execution is attempted, and they get a bonus to that escape attempt, as well.
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Joining this conversation late, so apologies if I'm covering things already said...
The Assassins realm on the Colonies was successfully run as an Infiltrator realm for a very long time. When they were accepted by all other realms as being neutral to politics and just doing things for gold or other conditions. When they expanded a bit more with land and started getting involved in more political things they became just another realm. Before that though, if any realm had tried to attack the Assassins, they would have been condemned by the rest of the island.
So it can be done, just not easily... As soon as the perceived neutrality is gone, the realm is just another realm...