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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Gloria on October 01, 2014, 08:15:55 AM
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My character Altagracia just became Countess of Poitiers. One of the people I play with has complained that this was for OOC reasons, because my character has not interacted much, publicly.
I feel bad about the accusation. Mainly, because being elected is not something I chose. And frankly, there was no ooc discussion or planning to be appointed. If I was going for ooc reasons, and pure strategy, I wouldn't have Altagracia run in the elections, as she gets a lot more gold as a dame of Kazakh. But "Countess of Poitiers" is a title Altagracia would want.
The thing is, she IS a Driscol. And the Driscol estate is in Poitiers. And that is designed into the game mechanics, and thus whatever we do IC, we cannot deny that fact. Also, whatever my character says, her family's history is automatically her background story.
So I'd really like it if, instead of resenting and accusing me of not roleplaying, you'd respond IC. It's totally ok for your character to be upset that she was not elected, and to hate Altagracia for it.
Thanks.
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Probably better sent in realm, than on here. A lot of people don't read the forums.
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So I'd really like it if, instead of resenting and accusing me of not roleplaying, you'd respond IC.
If you would like to handle this issue IC, what is the purpose of this thread?
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If you would like to handle this issue IC, what is the purpose of this thread?
Because some people like to vent. Or to talk.
And, really, it's probably better to do that on the forums, instead of IG.
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I'm all for talking. But so far it just looks like one player going to the forums to tell the entire community that the other player is an !@#$%^&.
Not cool, settle it IC indeed.
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I'm assuming that the whole "elections" talk is a miscommunication because Lords are appointed in Eponllyn. And I've seen no messages today or yesterday saying a new Lord had been appointed to that region, unless it's still in the planning stages?
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I'm assuming that the whole "elections" talk is a miscommunication because Lords are appointed in Eponllyn. And I've seen no messages today or yesterday saying a new Lord had been appointed to that region, unless it's still in the planning stages?
Poitiers is in Nivemus.
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Because some people like to vent. Or to talk.
And, really, it's probably better to do that on the forums, instead of IG.
This. Both. Because we're playing a game among friends.
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Poitiers is in Nivemus.
So it is. I must still think Westmoor exists or something. :P
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Or because the question can be discussed IG and here with two different perspectives.
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I'm all for talking. But so far it just looks like one player going to the forums to tell the entire community that the other player is an !@#$%^&.
Not cool, settle it IC indeed.
I can't see how when the other player is not named. This is a valid thing to bring to the Forum, if only to discuss how we as a community would like to see these matters resolved in the future.
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I'm all for talking. But so far it just looks like one player going to the forums to tell the entire community that the other player is an !@#$%^&.
Not cool, settle it IC indeed.
I am in Gloria's realm. I understand what Gloria means. What Gloria meaning by IC, is actually that other player is voicing in OOC. Gloria wants the other player to voice IC, otherwise how can Gloria responds to OOC in IC way in game.
Please allow me to Bold the key points of Gloria first post for better understanding.
My character Altagracia just became Countess of Poitiers. One of the people I play with has complained that this was for OOC reasons, because my character has not interacted much, publicly.
I feel bad about the accusation. Mainly, because being elected is not something I chose. And frankly, there was no ooc discussion or planning to be appointed. If I was going for ooc reasons, and pure strategy, I wouldn't have Altagracia run in the elections, as she gets a lot more gold as a dame of Kazakh. But "Countess of Poitiers" is a title Altagracia would want.
The thing is, she IS a Driscol. And the Driscol estate is in Poitiers. And that is designed into the game mechanics, and thus whatever we do IC, we cannot deny that fact. Also, whatever my character says, her family's history is automatically her background story.
So I'd really like it if, instead of resenting and accusing me of not roleplaying, you'd respond IC. It's totally ok for your character to be upset that she was not elected, and to hate Altagracia for it.
Thanks.
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Well, it is understandable that your character is a part of family, and it is logical that a person from respected family would get elected/appointed without much effort.
However, try to look at this from the other side. I am relatively new player and when I just came, I saw (and participated myself) a lot of elections where member of young unknown family would be very vocal and trying to run a nice campaign, but the title would go to a character from old family, who barely wrote a message. It is quite meh from the new players point (why the !@#$ should I ever try campaigning, if old player will get the title anyways).
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Well, it is understandable that your character is a part of family, and it is logical that a person from respected family would get elected/appointed without much effort.
However, try to look at this from the other side. I am relatively new player and when I just came, I saw (and participated myself) a lot of elections where member of young unknown family would be very vocal and trying to run a nice campaign, but the title would go to a character from old family, who barely wrote a message. It is quite meh from the new players point (why the !@#$ should I ever try campaigning, if old player will get the title anyways).
Oh, look! There's that old "cliques aren't a problem with player retention" issue rearing its ugly head again. Seems to pop up in the least likely of places.
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I can't see how when the other player is not named. This is a valid thing to bring to the Forum, if only to discuss how we as a community would like to see these matters resolved in the future.
The players who are aware of the situation all know who is being implied here.
Those from different realms don't, yeah... But what kind of a discussion is expected here? Taking IC issue OOC is bad everyone knows that. Doesn't mean you should respond in kind.
Oh, look! There's that old "cliques aren't a problem with player retention" issue rearing its ugly head again. Seems to pop up in the least likely of places.
Cliques are a nasty word for a not necessarily bad phenomenon.
Basically, cliques are groups of players who've been playing together for a while and grew to enjoy it and trust each other. That alone is a actually a good thing and I'd say inevitable. It only becomes problematic when cliques become exclusive and elitists. But due to the shortage of active players most cliques are actually recruiting.
I'm comparatively new (less than six months) and all of my three nobles are landed. One of them has recently played an instrumental part in a rebellion and received a major city as a prize. But that's not even the point. I've found that just being a knight in an active and dynamic realm is more fun than being a Duke in a stagnant quagmire.
So, flames, if you are active and are fun to interact with you will start achieving your character's goals soon enough. If you're doing your best but being absolutely ignored - emigrate. That's the best advice I can come up with.
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Well, it is understandable that your character is a part of family, and it is logical that a person from respected family would get elected/appointed without much effort.
However, try to look at this from the other side. I am relatively new player and when I just came, I saw (and participated myself) a lot of elections where member of young unknown family would be very vocal and trying to run a nice campaign, but the title would go to a character from old family, who barely wrote a message. It is quite meh from the new players point (why the !@#$ should I ever try campaigning, if old player will get the title anyways).
Trying to view this from objective point of view.
Does this mean we need to enforce Campaign on those who running for election? Where the candidate need to write a speech(long or short does not matter)? That would solve the silent candidate thing at least.
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How about simply trying to instill in the playerbase the idea,
"I will favor the newer, more active player unless an older player actively does a better job of convincing me and the realm they should have it"
The issue isn't one that can be enforced with rules or game mechanics. It needs a change in the way players think. "Trusting older players they've known a long time" has gone way, way, way overboard, to the point where new players just say "!@#$ it" and quit after a few months.
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Actually knowing the situation here helps a lot.
An already landed character was taking on an unlanded knight.
Neither campaigned and to my mind the knight who was unlanded won as she was unlanded...
The realm this happened in has a realatively young player base with only a handful of long term players who may or may not know the Driscolls by meeting or reputation, the argument that this was cliquiness is just wrong... at least to my mind anyway.
It's sad that someone can sour a knights success with OOC bile which is unwarranted and without foundation - and as Ketchum says, the secondary issue comes from the fact that the player vented his suspicions OOC so Gloria was unable to answer IC why she was the right choice etc.
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I've ran campaigns where almost all letters were sent in private. Sometimes, it's best to have targeted speeches.
When you've been in a realm and go about and send a nice long campaign message about all the nice things you've done, it really looks a lot like bragging to a lot of people. Feels like it to when sending it.
Oftentimes, I've also seen new players sink themselves with their campaigning. They could have limited themselves to one short message to announce their candidacy and won, but instead tried too hard, and thus failed.
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So, flames, if you are active and are fun to interact with you will start achieving your character's goals soon enough. If you're doing your best but being absolutely ignored - emigrate. That's the best advice I can come up with.
I myself am not that new anymore and I recieved some titles, and all is ok for me. I just pointed out the fact that it is a bit discouraging when someone who made no effort to campaign wins against a person who actually worked on it. And maybe a new player would decide not emigrate, but leave the game. I don't think any strict rules should be made about this, but if pleyers would support political discussions who knows - maybe we would have more interesting power struggles. Sometimes it looks like people are too afraid to elect unreliable character - but come one, this is a game.
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I myself am not that new anymore and I recieved some titles, and all is ok for me. I just pointed out the fact that it is a bit discouraging when someone who made no effort to campaign wins against a person who actually worked on it. And maybe a new player would decide not emigrate, but leave the game. I don't think any strict rules should be made about this, but if pleyers would support political discussions who knows - maybe we would have more interesting power struggles. Sometimes it looks like people are too afraid to elect unreliable character - but come one, this is a game.
It is indeed a game, but unlike most games, there's no reset 20 minutes later.
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I myself am not that new anymore and I recieved some titles, and all is ok for me. I just pointed out the fact that it is a bit discouraging when someone who made no effort to campaign wins against a person who actually worked on it. And maybe a new player would decide not emigrate, but leave the game. I don't think any strict rules should be made about this, but if pleyers would support political discussions who knows - maybe we would have more interesting power struggles. Sometimes it looks like people are too afraid to elect unreliable character - but come one, this is a game.
That's fair enough.
I just meant to say that being a new face is rarely an asset. I've worked for RL months to receive my first title and I enjoyed every moment of it. But even if I was passed on that appointment, I still wouldn't feel like everything was in vain because I've made quite a few friends and even ill-wishers in the process. And that's the most exciting part.
In BM you rely heavily on interpersonal relations for promotions. Just like in real life feudal societies. And even if you've got them, it is a slow game and it can take a while before opportunity appears (or you make it appear ;)).
In short, I wouldn't worry if my characters are promoted too slowly or not promoted at all as long as there is ample interaction and roleplay. If someone's being plainly ignored - that's actually problematic and should be brought to attention.
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Sometimes it looks like people are too afraid to elect unreliable character - but come one, this is a game.
This. Seriously.
First of all, "unreliable" and "new" are hardly the same. There's not much a single character can to completely disrupt a realm. Those things you CAN do take players who are experienced in the intricacies of the game, and have built up relationships. Not new players.
New players might be tempted to click on some of those shiny buttons, but they'll soon find out that the realm has ways to retaliate and protect itself.
In the meantime, "disruption" means something interesting is actually going on. So new players are seeing some "history" made first hand, instead of sitting in a dead realm & leaving out of boredom.
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There is a fundamental difference when a "family member" is the same player. IRL a family member is an independent individual, and while cronyism exists, it does not compare at all to knowing that you are appointing the same actual person to a position. Therefore, OOC criticisms are inevitable and, to some extent, legitimate.
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There is a fundamental difference when a "family member" is the same player. IRL a family member is an independent individual, and while cronyism exists, it does not compare at all to knowing that you are appointing the same actual person to a position. Therefore, OOC criticisms are inevitable and, to some extent, legitimate.
And all the more so if the character hasn't been role-played at all. If players want to use their family name as a reason to get ahead, that's perfectly reasonable, but they should at least be expected to role play using their family name to get ahead.
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It wouldn't be a problem at all if all positions were relatively even in effort:$$$/glory/power ratio. For example, I don't care at all if someone uses their family name to become a General or Marshal, because it's a difficult role. But someone who gets parachuted into the Duke seat has more power than the King, thousands of gold per week, is practically unimpeachable, and doesn't have to do anything.
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It wouldn't be a problem at all if all positions were relatively even in effort:$$$/glory/power ratio. For example, I don't care at all if someone uses their family name to become a General or Marshal, because it's a difficult role. But someone who gets parachuted into the Duke seat has more power than the King, thousands of gold per week, is practically unimpeachable, and doesn't have to do anything.
Which oddly enough is why people often elect those of renown families, since you can have some level of expectation that they may perform their duties well instead. If there is a family running around that is well known for dedication to the realm, for able management and generously to the realm in times of need, then if a scion of the family is around there are reasonable arguments for their appointment in some situations.
Remember too that not everyone engages in realm level conversations, that doesn't mean they are doing nothing, they may simply prefer private conversations with those that they think can help their ambitions.
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The ratio of the amount of destruction and the amount of good that can be caused by a Duke is so lopsided that I cannot help but think that these assurances mainly point towards the former.
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It wouldn't be a problem at all if all positions were relatively even in effort:$$$/glory/power ratio. For example, I don't care at all if someone uses their family name to become a General or Marshal, because it's a difficult role. But someone who gets parachuted into the Duke seat has more power than the King, thousands of gold per week, is practically unimpeachable, and doesn't have to do anything.
So think about it: do you really want to give that kind of power to someone you don't absolutely trust?
A duke can screw a realm up real hard, real easy. Usually, you want to make sure they have vested interests in the realm.
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For reasons including those I stated above, I think that the Duke position is currently the worst in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread originated from someone complaining about a Duke appointment. The power:effort ratio of the position is like an order of magnitude higher than any other.
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For reasons including those I stated above, I think that the Duke position is currently the worst in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread originated from someone complaining about a Duke appointment. The power:effort ratio of the position is like an order of magnitude higher than any other.
Agreed.
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How about simply trying to instill in the playerbase the idea,
"I will favor the newer, more active player unless an older player actively does a better job of convincing me and the realm they should have it"
The issue isn't one that can be enforced with rules or game mechanics. It needs a change in the way players think. "Trusting older players they've known a long time" has gone way, way, way overboard, to the point where new players just say "!@#$ it" and quit after a few months.
I've ran campaigns where almost all letters were sent in private. Sometimes, it's best to have targeted speeches.
When you've been in a realm and go about and send a nice long campaign message about all the nice things you've done, it really looks a lot like bragging to a lot of people. Feels like it to when sending it.
Oftentimes, I've also seen new players sink themselves with their campaigning. They could have limited themselves to one short message to announce their candidacy and won, but instead tried too hard, and thus failed.
Some players run their campaigns behind the scene, without declaring publicly, they talk privately to people who are voting. And if they win, who are we to declare them to be cheating in elections?
Not to mention, Gloria character election where both candidates failed to declared anything in the realm; so the voters here have to rely on their own to analyze and evaluate the candidates. Both candidates had a close vote running, with the victor(Gloria character) winning by a slim margin vote. I do not see anything fishy with that, maybe Gloria character has more supporters by a slim margin ???
There is a fundamental difference when a "family member" is the same player. IRL a family member is an independent individual, and while cronyism exists, it does not compare at all to knowing that you are appointing the same actual person to a position. Therefore, OOC criticisms are inevitable and, to some extent, legitimate.
Quite true. I agree. I try to avoid appoint my own family member to positions, unless there is really no other choice, like for example, nobody interested to pick up the positions. I even appointed other player character only to find out he gone inactive and paused after that. Leaving me with no choice but to appoint my own character, as every character is rejecting the appointment by virtue of them ticking "No" to being appointed as ABC position. I even attempted throughout my playing life to give and spread out the power as much as possible. Any players who played with me can attest to that.
This. Seriously.
First of all, "unreliable" and "new" are hardly the same. There's not much a single character can to completely disrupt a realm. Those things you CAN do take players who are experienced in the intricacies of the game, and have built up relationships. Not new players.
New players might be tempted to click on some of those shiny buttons, but they'll soon find out that the realm has ways to retaliate and protect itself.
In the meantime, "disruption" means something interesting is actually going on. So new players are seeing some "history" made first hand, instead of sitting in a dead realm & leaving out of boredom.
There is a lot of region lordships vacancies lying around in Nivemus realm recently, lot of elections. I personally will encourage you to see and try region lordships for yourself to grasp first hand the issue. It is not the new players not given opportunities, it is just they are too quiet and no campaign. Some of the players are trying out how to make the realm lively again and not too quiet. My character even started the Roleplay and messaged other character to participated together.
For reasons including those I stated above, I think that the Duke position is currently the worst in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread originated from someone complaining about a Duke appointment. The power:effort ratio of the position is like an order of magnitude higher than any other.
I understand your feeling on this. This thread originate from a region lord election, not duke election or duke appointment. My character is a Duke of the vacant lordship region in question here(Poitiers), but my character did not do any appointment. Sound like if my character does the appointment, there will be even more protests here afterwards. Maybe I should avoid forum altogether to avoid myself being influenced.
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Referendum Results
The referendum "Vote for lordship of Akesh Temple" has ended. Here is the final tally:
20 votes for Edric Eyolf
4 votes for Aednadh
0 votes for Ariana
2 abstentions
27 votes were not cast.
The winning choice is therefore Edric Eyolf, with 20 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
As the winner of this referendum, Edric Eyolf is therefore proclaimed as the new Lord of Akesh Temple.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
The region of Akesh Temple is currently without a local lord. In accordance with the realm's laws, the next lord will be chosen by a referendum among the lords of the realm.
24 days in the realm. Good to have a good family name...
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Nice forward staging post. ;)