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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Vita` on January 21, 2015, 02:52:57 AM
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This is why I railed against the death of Barca. The stillborn death of change, new politics, and new powers.
Barca was given multiple opportunities to avoid death politically by Luria, but stubbornly refused them at every turn. Luria specifically made Aveston the last priority of major townsland/city regions to recover and even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.
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Barca was given multiple opportunities to avoid death politically by Luria, but stubbornly refused them at every turn. Luria specifically made Aveston the last priority of major townsland/city regions to recover and even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.
No, I'm talking right at the beginning of the monster invasion, not after Barca, already half-dead and only getting worse, arrived there. By the time Barca had a foothold, its potential was already gone. Most of the new players who had joined the game through it (many were from the bay12forums, of Dwarf Fortress fame. So basically we managed to scare off the "Losing is !!Fun!!" crowd) quit or let their account go inactive (basically the same thing without the formality) when the monster invasion evicted us completely.
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Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.
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Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.
A fair point.
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It can't deny that it seems somewhat unnecessary from an ooc stand point for both PoZ and Cathay to get involved in a war that's basically been blown out of proportion by dishonourable tactics by Coralynth, that being said I have seen a growth in the player base of OW and Sorraine since this conflict started.
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Over the past 30 days Coralynth has lost 2 to no activity and gained 2. I see no change. As a member of coralynth I have no problem with as ass whooping ooc but we would could lose a war to OW alone. Yet it's almost worse having everyone say we're treacherous dbags and murderating sorraine for? Staying sassy? Anyway I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I just hope you all know where you're going with this.
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Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.
Luria was beat up. It had lost a number of regions to a number of realms. Asylon was coming in. Astrum and Swordfell had not participated yet. It looked, back then, that we were gaining momentum and that a sizable victory was at hand. But Asylon was left on their own andSwordfell never came in (many league rulers really could have treated them both better...), and Astrum took a very long time to get involved. Luria's offer of "carve out League realms instead" just wasn't acceptable. The League had already lost a ton of their land.
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Luria was beat up. It had lost a number of regions to a number of realms. Asylon was coming in. Luria's offer of "carve out League realms instead" just wasn't acceptable. The League had already lost a ton of their land.
Not quite. At the time of negotiations, before Barca and the League invaded Luria, Luria had lost outlying southern provinces (Moon Bay, Vaal in Sun Hall specifically, probably some southern parts Sky Hall), and most of Earth Hall (including Poryatu, Poryatown, Flying Hongrns, Girich, Mattan Dews, Lupa Lapu, Dantooine). To the same monsters that hit every realm. Not 'to a number of realms'. That was *after* initial negotiations broke down in lieu of a military invasion. Luria's offer to Barca was for D'hara and Fissoa to *share* the burden of Barca's survival, to which Luria was discussing providing southern Sun Hall regions (including Aveston) to Barca. This, because Luria was *also* trying to manage the survival of Niselur and Asylon within Sun and/or Sky Hall. The League's response was 'shove it, surprise invasion, break treaties, rape' we want one of your cities. All fine IC actions, someone has to play bad guys, just pointing out it didn't engender much positivity in return. But this puts in perspective 'League lost a ton of land' in light of the League proportionally still possessing more land that Luria but demanding Luria give up more and more of their realm. Again, this is perfectly fine ICly, but OOCly we can at least recognize what is.
I won't say Luria's enemies didn't make decisions that made sense from their perspective - I'm just saying they made those choices and those decisions had the consequences of those realms' deaths. Anyway, this is a bit of a distraction from the original point of Barca's death due to non-player created situations as opposed to my point of player choices also contributing to their deaths.
NOTE: Mods please split this Dwilight tangent off of FEI's board?
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Not quite. At the time of negotiations, before Barca and the League invaded Luria, Luria had lost outlying southern provinces (Moon Bay, Vaal in Sun Hall specifically, probably some southern parts Sky Hall), and most of Earth Hall (including Poryatu, Poryatown, Flying Hongrns, Girich, Mattan Dews, Lupa Lapu, Dantooine). To the same monsters that hit every realm. Not 'to a number of realms'. That was *after* initial negotiations broke down in lieu of a military invasion. Luria's offer to Barca was for D'hara and Fissoa to *share* the burden of Barca's survival, to which Luria was discussing providing southern Sun Hall regions (including Aveston) to Barca. This, because Luria was *also* trying to manage the survival of Niselur and Asylon within Sun and/or Sky Hall. The League's response was 'shove it, surprise invasion, break treaties, rape' we want one of your cities. All fine IC actions, someone has to play bad guys, just pointing out it didn't engender much positivity in return. But this puts in perspective 'League lost a ton of land' in light of the League proportionally still possessing more land that Luria but demanding Luria give up more and more of their realm. Again, this is perfectly fine ICly, but OOCly we can at least recognize what is.
I won't say Luria's enemies didn't make decisions that made sense from their perspective - I'm just saying they made those choices and those decisions had the consequences of those realms' deaths. Anyway, this is a bit of a distraction from the original point of Barca's death due to non-player created situations as opposed to my point of player choices also contributing to their deaths.
NOTE: Mods please split this Dwilight tangent off of FEI's board?
I don't recall Aveston before offered to Barca before they were there. After all, that required some dev intervention, no? Townslands can't usually be capitals, that's why we wanted Shinnen.
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It was offered in the negotiations prior to the invasion.
You are right that it couldn't have been the capital.
At the time, I incorrectly believed townslands *could* be declared capitals hence later on in the invasion's early days, Seoras being very serious about removing Barca from Shinnen Purlieus so it couldn't be declared their capital, and then D'hara from Shinnen Purlieus, so that it couldn't be given to Barca to be made their capital.
I don't believe the fact that Barca couldn't have a capital in townslands was mentioned in negotiations (of course, this was all back in May/June of last year...), just that they wanted Shinnen and that D'hara and Fissoa refused to provide a single region for Barca.
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It was offered in the negotiations prior to the invasion.
You are right that it couldn't have been the capital.
At the time, I incorrectly believed townslands *could* be declared capitals hence later on in the invasion's early days, Seoras being very serious about removing Barca from Shinnen Purlieus so it couldn't be declared their capital, and then D'hara from Shinnen Purlieus, so that it couldn't be given to Barca to be made their capital.
I don't believe the fact that Barca couldn't have a capital in townslands was mentioned in negotiations (of course, this was all back in May/June of last year...), just that they wanted Shinnen and that D'hara and Fissoa refused to provide a single region for Barca.
Well, maybe we didn't bring it up because we assumed you knew as well? The only time a townsland had ever been made capital before was due to Tom's interference to save his favorite realm, Outer Tilog. I certainly never imagined they'd make a townsland capital for Barca, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. Shinnen was the only choice. And from Shinnen, Fissoa could maybe have given a region... the desert? Barca didn't have many nobles left, so it wasn'T really worth giving more than a city and a few adjacent regions. D'Hara's regions were too far from Shinnen to give anything, and those eastern regions are crap anyways. D'Hara had already lost half of its economy with the loss of the West, it wasn't going to just give up and surrender half of what was left without trying something elsewhere first...
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It happened on EC once. Eleador? Or Coimbra? Anyway, i know it happened on EC. Dunno about the colonies.
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Drachenwald!
Back in those good old days you could colony TO any region. :)
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Heh. I used to play in Barca and recruited just about 12 new players to that realm in the end (and those on their turn invited more players). The 'peace deals' we were receiving from Luria and through the Southern League were being stretched and stretched, so much that Barca was trying to fight off hordes of massive monster CS (I think we broke the record at one point). Even when Asylon was already in Corsanctum (and seemed to be making headway), Luria kept wanting to 'negotiate'. There was no option, the leaders of the realm decided we wouldn't die out fighting monster hordes, if we kept 'negotiating' about how Barca could 'just be helped by D'Hara (who was losing its core regions) and Fissoa' they could 'why don't your allies give u some regions', whilst 50% of the previous Luria Novan regions were rogue :-\ . If we had kept 'negotiating' we would have lost all of our already depleted armies and would have had to assimilate into another realm, or into Luria Nova itself, which would have been the end of Barca.
So we obviously had to make a move. The rest of the story is that of Luria Nova beating on a dead horse (we couldn't reinforce, kept being teleported back to the west, no gold, just plain boring in general) for several IRL months which has resulted in 90% of the second most populous realm in Dwilight to stop playing. Sad story. We used to have so many RP's and letters written constantly in that realm, it's a shame that OOC'ly people here don't realise that this game would have been better allowing Barca into the western tip of Luria and Asylon into what was Corsanctum. These were the most vibrant realms, guys sometimes you have to look further than your IC to save the game you are all complaining is losing players every day. Think of how much funner the game would have been.
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http://i.imgur.com/2lVFxIa.jpg
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Barca was given multiple opportunities to avoid death politically by Luria, but stubbornly refused them at every turn. Luria specifically made Aveston the last priority of major townsland/city regions to recover and even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.
No you didn't. I never received any actual offer from Luria aside from Ambassador whatshisface being butthurt about us living in his precious Sun Hall and telling us to give up iirc. My demands weren't really that reasonable, but at least I actually made some.
Heh. I used to play in Barca and recruited just about 12 new players to that realm in the end (and those on their turn invited more players). The 'peace deals' we were receiving from Luria and through the Southern League were being stretched and stretched, so much that Barca was trying to fight off hordes of massive monster CS (I think we broke the record at one point). Even when Asylon was already in Corsanctum (and seemed to be making headway), Luria kept wanting to 'negotiate'. There was no option, the leaders of the realm decided we wouldn't die out fighting monster hordes, if we kept 'negotiating' about how Barca could 'just be helped by D'Hara (who was losing its core regions) and Fissoa' they could 'why don't your allies give u some regions', whilst 50% of the previous Luria Novan regions were rogue :-\ . If we had kept 'negotiating' we would have lost all of our already depleted armies and would have had to assimilate into another realm, or into Luria Nova itself, which would have been the end of Barca.
So we obviously had to make a move. The rest of the story is that of Luria Nova beating on a dead horse (we couldn't reinforce, kept being teleported back to the west, no gold, just plain boring in general) for several IRL months which has resulted in 90% of the second most populous realm in Dwilight to stop playing. Sad story. We used to have so many RP's and letters written constantly in that realm, it's a shame that OOC'ly people here don't realise that this game would have been better allowing Barca into the western tip of Luria and Asylon into what was Corsanctum. These were the most vibrant realms, guys sometimes you have to look further than your IC to save the game you are all complaining is losing players every day. Think of how much funner the game would have been.
Pretty much, we kept getting screwed the whole way over by players and game mechanics. Gameplay mechanic changes to allow us to actually do the migration thing mostly came about after we set off and were having huge problems with morale and gold, but for some people it was too late and we had no way of getting more money along the way and couldn't return to our capital. There was no way we could have waited any longer and indeed we had already waited too long, there wasn't great communication for the assault on Shinnen and it failed. A few players deleted their accounts or characters right after that. Lots of others were wounded or imprisoned (and then teleported back to the west until the devs made Aveston our capital (thanks!)) and many lost most or all of their soldiers.
Julius was seriously wounded and unable to reply to messages for a while so Erasmus seized his chance and usurped power, which didn't help Barca since he was still super butthurt about whatever happened to Saffalore (I honestly don't even remember anymore). His successor Kori should never have been elected either, terrible character.
It's a pity how poor the entire thing went, I think it could have been a lot of fun if the mechanics had been in place before we started but more than enough has been said about that already anyway, I just hope things in the future can work more smoothly :) I've made more gold in one tax in Morek than I did in ~6 months or something like that last year in Barca. Aveston was pretty poor.
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The whole migration plan was poorly prepared. I think by the time it became somewhat reasonable, it was way too late.
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No you didn't. I never received any actual offer from Luria aside from Ambassador whatshisface being butthurt about us living in his precious Sun Hall and telling us to give up iirc.
Yes, I did so please don't lie OOCly months after the fact. Barcan suffetes were offered, multiple times, various deals including multiple forms of land arrangements between luria/d'hara/fissoa, convincing Fissoa/D'hara to help colonize Barca into Morek, and Barca turning against the League in exchange for not being destroyed and for help conquering new lands (this is what Seoras sent your character).
I play Ambassador whatshisface and yes he was 'butthurt' about his homeland being invaded after it had just barely recovered from LV/D'haran occupation. Throw in some rape scandal, violating treaties that said violators begged for from him during the Tomb Island War, yadda yadda and he's sour and sore. It's called having in-character history and perspective. I'm certain there'd be barcan dukes just as upset had the situation been reversed.
I think most players can agree that the freezing/invasion/migration process could've been better implemented. In hindsight, I even think Dwilight should've been left alone.
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I meant specifically the last part of your post where you said:
even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.
I never received any real offers, just vague rebuffs against my somewhat haughty demands for the entire duchy :p There wasn't really anything offered to reject.
I didn't mean the butthurt comment as an insult, I just thought it was kind of funny as Seoras (iirc, sorry I really don't remember how to spell the name) did come off as a bit butthurt at times and I don't blame him. Oswaldo was pretty butthurt by that point too.
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Well, things suck.
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Well, things suck.
Yup...
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For publicity, a bit late I spose:
The Treaty of Palm Sea (Luria, Fissoa, Madina)
The Maritime Kingdom of Fissoa and the Hegemony of Luria Nova do declare and swear to abide by the following:
Fissoa publicly acknowledges its error in forcefully resettling barcans upon lurian lands against a diplomatic solution. Fissoa publicly acknowledges that the Southern League was wrong to pursue this goal, and that as a founding member of the League in promoting that policy, Fissoa shall withdraw from the League. King Aran shall step down from the throne.
Fissoa shall cede Madina Island and all further western lands for the formation of Madina. The Maritime Kingdom of Fissoa shall then declare itself the Grand Principality of Fissoa.
Luria Nova shall sign peace with both realms upon completion of these aforementioned items.
Luria Nova shall cede the duchy of Grimrog, consisting of all current lurian possessions south of the Palm Sea-Maf southern border, to the Grand Principality of Fissoa while Fissoa shall make publicly known its acceptance of diverse cultures, especially of western origin. After the transition of the duchy, the ruler and judge of the Grand Principality shall step down to allow for elections by all nobility of the realm. All other titles will be held by current occupants. No new alliances shall be created or standing alliances ended between the secession of Madina and the election of the new ruler, so that the realm may choose its own direction.
Luria Nova will receive 500 bushels every autumn from the Grand Principality at a cost of 20 gold per 100 bushels. These terms shall hold for a minimum of six seasonal years from the founding date of the Seafaring Republic of Madina. A shipment may be delayed until next year's autumn in the event either Madina or Fissoa capitals are under siege or starvation. A total of six shipments, one per autumn, must occur.
Prince Alastor and Prince Tupac shall marry noble lurian brides at two tournaments, one hosted within Fissoa City, the other within a lurian city. These marriages shall occur within one seasonal year (ooc: ~84 days) of this treaty's signature.
The Verminators within Fissoa shall merge with the Royal Rangers. Nobles of the Grand Principality will be given equivalent rank to lurian nobility. Verminator guildhouses will be replaced by Ranger guildhouses.
Halls of Luria shall be constructed in Fissoa City to allow nobility to join as they may or may not wish. Ambassadors and other nobility will be invited to join the Halls of Luria upon the Ruler's Bulletin in Fissoa.
The Judge's Bulletin and New Member Bulletin of the Grand Principality shall contain an exhortation for nobility to investigate the available faiths and swear membership in a church within a timely manner.
Fissoa, Madina, Sun Hall, and Sky Hall militaries will conduct joint elephant training exercises. Each shall make arrangements for the protection of indigenous elephants from overhunting and each shall set aside a pristine natural preserve within their lands for that purpose.