BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: GoldPanda on March 20, 2011, 01:53:37 AM
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Right now, a Judge can fine a noble for misbehaving. This isn't actually a punishment on the noble, as he can then just turn around and ask for funds, so that he can keep his men paid. If he doesn't get the money, he'll probably lose his unit and have to wait for next tax day. So either the Lords and Dukes end up footing the bill for him, or the General gets punished instead with a slightly smaller army. Either way, it's not a big deal to anyone involved, and the offender's biggest punishment is possibly a few days of boredom.
I'd like to see the Judge being able to hand down punishments that players would actually want to avoid. Maybe this means making you pay for fines out of your family gold. Maybe this means the Judge can make you lose honor/prestige as well.
Thoughts?
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I like the idea, especially lose of prestige.
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I like it. I've long had some misgivings about fines because lack of gold (in most cases) hurts the realm/army more than the individual in question. Loss of prestige ("After receiving formal censure from the Judge, whispers begin among the lesser nobility, and your prestige is lessened in their eyes") would seem to make sense.
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You don't want to be able to give any players the ability to directly lower another player's stats. Such a thing is ripe for abuse. And even if it's not used in an abusive manner, you can bet that the complaints and accusations will be flying thick. That already happens with honor and vulgarity messages.
And if you make a noble pay for it out of family gold, then he'll just put it right back the next time he goes to the bank.
Fees are intended to be a light punishment. More of an official warning kind of thing. That's why they're not recorded anywhere.
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Something between nothing (which is what most fines work out to being) and banishment would be nice. Torture directly lowers stats, and can be done on anyone who enters your prison. Yeah, there's some honour penalty, but I imagine a similar sort of penalty could work for lowering prestige. You censure someone, they lose three prestige, and you lose one.
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Yes, you can torture someone and lower a stat, at a heavy price to yourself, and only to people in your own prison. Rarely do people captured in battle get tortured. It is almost always reserved for infiltrators committing assassinations and for particularly notorious enemies.
Yes, maybe there could be some intermediate penalty. But a prestige loss? Even being banished from a realm, which is a harsh penalty, doesn't give you a prestige or honor hit.
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What about giving the judge power to arrest other nobles? but give nobles choices between being arrested willingly or fight with guards with his men? Guards can be militia units or the judge's units.
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Yes, you can torture someone and lower a stat, at a heavy price to yourself, and only to people in your own prison. Rarely do people captured in battle get tortured. It is almost always reserved for infiltrators committing assassinations and for particularly notorious enemies.
The fact that it's not used more frequently is only a custom, and a relatively recent one at that. I remember when it was standard practice for Abington and the CE (and presumably their various allies, though I don't know) to torture anyone in military command positions to try and find out strategy info. Heck, that's why the code was changed so that torture could only reveal stuff sent before you got captured, because there were draconian punishments for bribing the guards to get mail as that put current orders at the mercy of the other realm, and Tom got annoyed.
What's the penalty for torture (besides any political repercussions)? A slight honour loss?
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I believe it's an honor and prestige penalty. And the amount you lose depends on how much you have.
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I think the subtraction from the family gold is a good idea. Yeah maybe the character will just replace it, but he will not be seen to have the right to as it would compromise his ability to upkeep a decent unit, which we will then defer to the normal customs of "Hey !@#$%^&, why did send the gold back to your family that I just gave you!" or in more noble terms, "You are not honouring your terms as my vassal by not defending my interests etc etc"
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Maybe this means making you pay for fines out of your family gold.
Thoughts?
At first sight, I liked this idea, but there is a possible loophole: people who ask the Judge to fine them to get gold instead of asking for family support.
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What if judges were able to do formal reprimands that could then go into the players family history. That would be something people would like to avoid I think, and any abuse of it could be explained by the noble in question.
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that would be nice. In fact, wouldn't be nice if each character had his own history instead of a family history?
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What about giving the judge power to arrest other nobles? but give nobles choices between being arrested willingly or fight with guards with his men? Guards can be militia units or the judge's units.
An excellent idea. Justice Bao in ancient China showed no fear or favour in arresting anyone including Royalty apart from the Emperor. The power to arrest a noble makes playing a judge very appealing. If someone is found innocent he can then be released. If not then mete out a punishment. If he abuses his powers he can always be protested out.
On the choice to go willingly or not - yes, yes, yes! To balance things out.
In fact, wouldn't be nice if each character had his own history instead of a family history?
Another excellent idea. About time character history was streamlined.
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An excellent idea. Justice Bao in ancient China showed no fear or favour in arresting anyone including Royalty apart from the Emperor. The power to arrest a noble makes playing a judge very appealing. If someone is found innocent he can then be released. If not then mete out a punishment. If he abuses his powers he can always be protested out.
On the choice to go willingly or not - yes, yes, yes! To balance things out.
Maybe we can finally have the judges power in accordance with that whole weak/strong/medium thing the ruler gets to decide. Strong judges can arrest people ;)
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Allowing judges to directly affect H/P would be fair for game balance if it also affects the judge's H/P.
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Maybe we can finally have the judges power in accordance with that whole weak/strong/medium thing the ruler gets to decide. Strong judges can arrest people ;)
Great idea.
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Maybe we can finally have the judges power in accordance with that whole weak/strong/medium thing the ruler gets to decide. Strong judges can arrest people ;)
I love the idea of that. Being arrested by the judge seems a lot more embarrassing then getting a fine slapped on you and I'd imagine someone would be more hesitant to commit a certain crime if it landed them in jail. Its not very exciting in there, after all.
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Arresting Nobles from your own Realm could get very tricky, as you can then ban someone while he can't escape. That's a bit too much power. The Noble should be given the opportunity to avoid that.
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That is true. I've seen it happen a couple times where someone ended up in their own realm's prison. The judge then bans from the regular ban page, not the dungeon page. That way the prisoner doesn't get tossed out when banned. Then you wait until the ban goes into effect. Once the ban is active, the judge can do anything they want to the now-rogue prisoner.
This would be *extremely* powerful, and allow the judge to effectively capture/execute anyone they wanted. Or capture and ban even nobles who had protection from their lords via good marks.
There's a lot of thought that would need to go into something like this.
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Arresting Nobles from your own Realm could get very tricky, as you can then ban someone while he can't escape. That's a bit too much power. The Noble should be given the opportunity to avoid that.
This is already possible if you are playing a priest. Not only that, but from my experience an arrest now causes you to forfeit all your titles.
I would say that the Judge could *attempt* to arrest a noble, but they could resist and cause a major loss of H/P to the Judge. Chance of failure could be based on a number of factors: Unaligned vs Knight vs Lord vs Duke, size of unit, Noble vs Royal, etc.
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This is already possible if you are playing a priest. Not only that, but from my experience an arrest now causes you to forfeit all your titles.
I would say that the Judge could *attempt* to arrest a noble, but they could resist and cause a major loss of H/P to the Judge. Chance of failure could be based on a number of factors: Unaligned vs Knight vs Lord vs Duke, size of unit, Noble vs Royal, etc.
Agreed. I'm all for an attempt to arrest. How to work that attempt would be interesting...Maybe make it so the Judge has to actually be in-region and click an "arrest" button, and the game runs some calcs to see if the Judge's unit wins against the other noble?
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Like I said before, Judge should use his units to arrest a noble or maybe order militia. They shouldn't be able to just arrest someone out of blue.
The noble under arrest should be able to choose either he is going to resist and fight or give up hope and let the judge capture him.
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Like I said before, Judge should use his units to arrest a noble or maybe order militia. They shouldn't be able to just arrest someone out of blue.
The noble under arrest should be able to choose either he is going to resist and fight or give up hope and let the judge capture him.
The problem with giving the player a choice is that the player might not log in for 2 days--is he holed up in his estate with the Judge's unit surrounding the place?
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One way to go about it would be to give the judge two options to make an arrest. Option 1 would be something like "Ask noble to surrender," which would give a noble an amount of time to surrender, and after that time had elapsed militia would attempt to arrest the noble in question. For simplicity's sake, the noble would be able to surrender in any region of the realm.
Option 2 could be "Attempt to arrest noble" which would use the Judge's unit to immediately attempt to arrest a noble. Chances for success would depend on the size and strength of the arresting unit vs the resisting unit. Add a chance, depending on the status(militia should never aid in the arrest of a Royal, and militia should be more likely to assist in the arrest of a unaligned knight than a Duke) of the arrestee, for the militia to join in on the arrest. If a Judge attempts to arrest a Lord within that Lord's own region, then the militia of that region would naturally aid their Lord.
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Maybe we can have the judge to apoint one or two(depending on the size of realm in nobles) sub judges who can also arrest nobles withtin the realm.
Should we also allow the option to arrest foreign nobles?
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Should we also allow the option to arrest foreign nobles?
With your own unit, I can imagine it, but the "ask noble to surrender" does not make much sense for foreign nobles.
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How about torture or ban punishment.It's like this:
Oance the sentence is given the noble has the following options:
A)accept torture-he has 3 days to do this after the sentence is cast.
B)Ignore sentence and get banned-this happens if he has not accepted torture in 3 days.
C)Leave the realm in 3 days.
The judge will receive no penalties for this torture since it is being done with the noble's approval.
He can also determine how severe the torture will be.
Being unconscious is worse than jail.At lest there are things you can do in jail.
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How about torture or ban punishment.It's like this:
Oance the sentence is given the noble has the following options:
A)accept torture-he has 3 days to do this after the sentence is cast.
B)Ignore sentence and get banned-this happens if he has not accepted torture in 3 days.
C)Leave the realm in 3 days.
The judge will receive no penalties for this torture since it is being done with the noble's approval.
He can also determine how severe the torture will be.
Being unconscious is worse than jail.At lest there are things you can do in jail.
How many nobles would honestly submit to being tortured? There are also quite a few realms who consider torture the worst thing you can do to a noble, so I doubt that would ever really work.
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Well,they caused trouble and judge is kind enough to let them stay in exchange for a little pain.
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How about torture or ban punishment.It's like this:
Oance the sentence is given the noble has the following options:
A)accept torture-he has 3 days to do this after the sentence is cast.
B)Ignore sentence and get banned-this happens if he has not accepted torture in 3 days.
C)Leave the realm in 3 days.
The judge will receive no penalties for this torture since it is being done with the noble's approval.
He can also determine how severe the torture will be.
Being unconscious is worse than jail.At lest there are things you can do in jail.
Wouldn't work in any realm I've ever been in. Any character seriously RPed would hold a tremendous grudge against the torturer. Torture was probably the worst dishonor a noble could face.
Any judge that tortured a realmmate for anything else than high treason wouldn't remain judge for long.
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Torture is not just a little bit of pain. People get scared, driven insane, maimed for life, or even during torture. I would put money on the fact that Tom will never add any kind of voluntary torture mechanic like this.
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Think it this way. If an officer comes to your door and asks you if you would like to be tortured, would you agree? I highly doubt many would say yes to that.
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Well, they don't have to say yes.They can just leave the realm or wait and be banned.
If there are personal grudges and a war breacks out-there is nothing wrong with that.
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How about, playing on the idea of giving judges the power to arrest nobles, instead of just allowing them to arrest whoever they please, there must be a warrant for their arrest, which can only be given out by the knight's lord or the ruler of the realm?
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How about, playing on the idea of giving judges the power to arrest nobles, instead of just allowing them to arrest whoever they please, there must be a warrant for their arrest, which can only be given out by the knight's lord or the ruler of the realm?
Judges sign warrants. Perhaps a judge can sign a warrant, and any noble in-region with the 'outlaw' has a 10% chance of getting a "bring in noble for questioning" link.
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I was just thinking as an example. Say, if a knight has three bad marks against his name, along with being able to dissolve his oath, you could also put out a request for his arrest?
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Gee, he's just a really bad knight, not a criminal...
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I was just thinking as an example. Say, if a knight has three bad marks against his name, along with being able to dissolve his oath, you could also put out a request for his arrest?
If he has done something serious enough to warrant more then just losing his oath, why not have him fined or banned?
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If he has done something serious enough to warrant more then just losing his oath, why not have him fined or banned?
Because those measures are what we are trying to avoid because it ends up damaging the realm. It's kind of the whole point of this thread.
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I believe it's an honor and prestige penalty. And the amount you lose depends on how much you have.
And is considerable, hence why I often encourage the judge to do it, but never did it myself in my many days as judge. Didn't want to suffer that h/p loss.
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Adding to the probability of a judge being able to successfully arrest a noble, maybe if the noble is in his own region, the chances would significantly drop that he would be arrested. The noble would be able to board up in his estate, leading to some direct conflict. The size of the estate, small, medium, large, or the lord's estate, could factor in as well.
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If a noble is in his own region, or if any noble is in any region that belongs to his realm, he can't be captured, unless in battle, or he tries doing something like infiltration or trading. Also, you can't capture nobles outside of your realm's regions, unless in battle, infiltration, or trading. I asked.
So I'm not sure what, if anything, the estate is supposed to do. He can't be captured unless he's not part of the realm, in which case he wouldn't have an estate. But it might work if we apply family homes. Certainly the family would shield a noble on the run. Figure out where the character's family home is located, and no matter what, that acts as a safe spot.