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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on July 25, 2012, 09:59:27 PM

Title: OOC Behaviour
Post by: BattleMaster Server on July 25, 2012, 09:59:27 PM

Summary:	OOC Behaviour
Violation:	Rule Number 2 - No verbal attacks, insults...
World:	East Continent
Complainer:	Alexandros Stavrou (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=5798)
About:	Caeranor Saegarus (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=30651)

Full Complaint Text:
This is seriously sick behaviour. Please get our realm rid of him, nobody wants him here.
 

 
Best regards,
 
Alexandros
 

 
Out-of-Character from Caeranor Saegarus Griffirtaen   (49 minutes ago)
 
Message sent to everyone in your realm (54 recipients)
 
Yeah and you know what, I Am Not A !@#$ing Saxon OR a Clanner OR Any Other Bull!@#$.
 

 
The fact I was arbitrarily thrown out of Fontan simply for playing there LONG before the Saxon crap on Dwilight doesn't seem to matter. I've actually emialled Tom about this because I'm sick of it. I sent Caeranor back to Fontan after being deported because I don't accept being spontaneously !@#$ed over by the OOC Forum Committee, and have my own personal roleplay shat on.  Malenard left Perdan for Fontan when Perdan was all but dead, and then he died there. Caeranor is his son and went to Fontan to find his father's legacy. Now he's come back to where he was raised.
 

 
The fact the last time I was deported out of spite the other week, when Fontan was already dead, and therefore all the made up charges about there being a clan totally irrelevant is nothing short of a joke. The ruling said people were deported for playing in Fontan, nothing about banning me from the continent or any realm.
 

 
So no, I won't suffer your OOC ruin my game experience tyranny any longer.
 

 
Joseph Lant
 
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Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Bael on July 25, 2012, 10:03:49 PM

Can't see the verbal attack or insult.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Penchant on July 25, 2012, 10:47:29 PM

I see him being a little agressive because he is pissed off about the complainer trying to act like the player is banned from the continent and all, but I don't see a verbal attack or insult.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: deHauteville on July 26, 2012, 12:05:48 AM

Mod note: Post deleted for offensive/insulting language.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Vellos on July 26, 2012, 12:13:06 AM

I would see two issues here, but first:

Can we please have some context? More messages? Can someone please give us some more of the conversation, especially what message may have been sent to provoke that response?

In regards to actual issues, I would think:
1. The target of the complaint may actually be a victim of some OOC harassment here (I am sympathetic to the complaints of players identified as "saxons" that they feel discriminated against), but I'd want to see more context

2. Certainly that angry outburst still isn't laudable; but I'm hardly sure it's worthy of a major response

---

Given that there are two complaints about this exact same incident, I ask that this thread be exclusively about the apparent verbal battle that went on; the relevant part of the SC being the part about playing with friends, as well as:
"No verbal attacks, insults or harrassment of other players. Err on the side of caution, especially if you don't know the other player well."
and
"Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence."

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Velax on July 26, 2012, 01:41:16 AM

This is the message that prompted the one in the complaint.

"Out-of-Character from Atanamir of Umbar   (11 hours, 55 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (54 recipients)
Dear player of Caeranor Saegarus,

Perdan is a Saxon-free realm and we intend to keep it, since we don't accept any kind of clanning.

You have been twice deported from EC, please leave this realm.

You can respect this as player and leave or we will find a proper reason IG.

Thank you.

2012-03-27  Caeranor Saegarus  Began his career in Fontan.
2012-04-22  Caeranor Saegarus  Forcefully deported by a GameMaster to Far East.
2012-05-12  Caeranor Saegarus  Immigrated to East Continent.
2012-05-14  Caeranor Saegarus  Joined the realm of Fontan
2012-07-13  Caeranor Saegarus  Forcefully deported by a GameMaster to Beluaterra.
Alexandros Stavrou"

I'm as anti-Saxon as the next person, probably far more so, but I feel this Magistrate complaint goes too far.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Vellos on July 26, 2012, 02:02:42 AM

Quote from: Velax on July 26, 2012, 01:41:16 AM

This is the message that prompted the one in the complaint.

"Out-of-Character from Atanamir of Umbar   (11 hours, 55 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (54 recipients)
Dear player of Caeranor Saegarus,

Perdan is a Saxon-free realm and we intend to keep it, since we don't accept any kind of clanning.

You have been twice deported from EC, please leave this realm.

You can respect this as player and leave or we will find a proper reason IG.

Thank you.

2012-03-27  Caeranor Saegarus  Began his career in Fontan.
2012-04-22  Caeranor Saegarus  Forcefully deported by a GameMaster to Far East.
2012-05-12  Caeranor Saegarus  Immigrated to East Continent.
2012-05-14  Caeranor Saegarus  Joined the realm of Fontan
2012-07-13  Caeranor Saegarus  Forcefully deported by a GameMaster to Beluaterra.
Alexandros Stavrou"

I'm as anti-Saxon as the next person, probably far more so, but I feel this Magistrate complaint goes too far.

I would agree.

In fact, I'm inclined to think Alexandros violated the SC right there. That's certainly not playing as with friends, seems like a public accusation of cheating, is an explicit pledge to take OOC matters IC, and is obviously exclusive.

I'd like to hear counterarguments, but the above message is just not acceptable.

Though I hasten to add, of course: that message is not acceptable to me, but the Magistrates would have to determine a precedent on if we would require a separate complaint to address it or not; and also though that message doesn't seem acceptable in any context, the question of whether Joseph Lant's actions are acceptable is, as noted, a separate one.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Sacha on July 26, 2012, 03:22:27 AM

Yes, this is so what I dreamed being a Magistrate would be... dealing with babies who think we're some kind of personal banhammer to get rid of people they don't like. This ragging on Saxons thing is getting sad, honestly. Half the people complaining about them blur the lines between IC and OOC all the time themselves. None of them were ever found guilty of cheating, and while their methods rub a lot of people the wrong way, they're not breaking any rules as far as I know. The family gold issue was months ago. And the clanning thing? Just the old-timey clan feeling threatened by migrating Saxons.

If I had to suffer this kind of bull!@#$ all the time after my multi-cheating in the past I'd have left this game long ago. What was it... like 25 accounts over several years? But look here, I'm a Magistrate! So I guess not everyone has to stay a bad apple, right?

I think we should file a case against Alexander for this. The case itself is frivolous enough, but the tone is just downright insulting. And then we wonder why there's an Us vs. Them atmosphere surrounding these guys.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Atanamir on July 26, 2012, 08:10:33 AM

I may want to answer: I believe my message was straight but friendly.

You play games with friends, right, and everyone in Perdan does abide by it.
However, when we know as players that a "friend" is mutiply breaking the rules, we have every right to warn him that we take the rules seriously.

My message was supported by many in realm, also on personal level.

I asked him to leave as player from his own.
Otherwise the thing will be settled IG, because if he keeps playing like he played earlier or later he will break again the rules and he will get banned, that is the thought behind my message.

Excuse me if it sounded offfensive, but as written in my account, english is not my first language.

Thank you.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Atanamir on July 26, 2012, 08:27:55 AM

Oh and why I filled the complaint about his message?

I think every second word is swearing and seriously someone who feels innocent does not answer like this.

Since I have made the experience that we have already children of the age 8 playing BM, I think it is indeed a harm of the SC #2 since I think 8 year olds should not read such messages.

At least I wouldn't let my children play a game where people talk like this, but maybe we europeans have a different sense of what is swearing and what not.

Thank you.

Mod Note: Personal attack removed.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2012, 09:03:35 AM

There are two parts to gaming with each other. One is not being insulting and the other is not being too easily offended.

I myself use swearwords every now and then. I don't sprinkle every other !@#$ing sentence with a !@#$ing swearword like some !@#$ing movies do it just for !@#$ing effect... but then again, when it's appropriate... most of us are adults here, and those of us who aren't in parts enjoy this place because it is not a for-kids environment. Many of the younger players in the game act very adult, and you would've never guessed that they're 14 or whatever.

I don't see a problem with this message if it isn't a constant problem with this player. Everyone gets upset every now and then and he's speaking his mind. He is not personally attacking anyone, either.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Sacha on July 26, 2012, 11:14:30 AM

Atanamir, if you suspect cheating, contact the GMs, don't go on a personal crusade like you're some kind of BM vigilante. You say he constantly breaks the rules, well, where's the proof? If all you've got is that he's affiliated with Saxons, you've got no reason for this kind of abuse.

Also, your message wasn't friendly at all, you just told him to get lost because of some silly arbitrary OOC reason, or you'd find a way to ban him IC. Just because you said 'please' and 'dear player' doesn't make the message any less insulting, I'd even say it makes it worse. You're purposely excluding people from yuour corner of the game, which I'm fairly sure is a breach of the Social Contract. You publicly accuse him of being a 'Saxon' and imply he's a cheater, which is definitely a breach of the SC.

Mod Note: Personal attack removed.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Lorgan on July 26, 2012, 11:45:08 AM

All fear the one man-clan!

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Atanamir on July 26, 2012, 11:54:14 AM

Mod Note: Post deleted.

Please keep the discussion to the topic at hand and refrain from personal attacks.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Sacha on July 26, 2012, 12:02:23 PM

Clans themselves aren't illegal. And I'm referring to realms like Darka where the leadership has been consistently with the same core group for multiple RL years now. And that's not just my opinion, Jaune agrees. My point is that you're telling someone to shove off for no justifiable reason. So he's part of a clan. Big whoop, so are you, me and half of everyone else on the forums, or have been at some point. As long as said clan isn't actively ruining the game for everyone else, you should just deal with them IC. If your realm gets overtaken by a small group, well, maybe you had it coming.

If you're going to ban someone for OOC reasons, it should be for what OOC bans are intended: obvious cheaters, abusive people and other jackasses breaking the Social Contract. You could've just banned the guy IC for looking funny and be rid of him in 3 turns, and it would be no problem, but you had to take it OOC, and not even for the right reasons. Well, it backfired.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Blue Star on July 26, 2012, 04:12:22 PM

You can say their clans in every realm basically that has been established and held itself together for more than 4-5 years now. AT itself rarely changes I left 3 years ago and really I see little difference really... beside Darka finally wanting to assault ce alliance instead of being bought out by them.

Note* This isn't about whos clan is stronger than whos, it's about why is this player being singled out and it is complex.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Geronus on July 26, 2012, 06:07:02 PM

Please keep this thread objective and on topic. Regarding the question at hand, without evidence of actual wrongdoing this case is groundless. A brief poll will be conducted to ensure that the Magistrates are in agreement on that fact.

Regarding the reporter, I would say that there are grounds for a Magistrate complaint against him, but I do not want to address that as part of this case and I believe it should be handled separately if at all. If someone feels strongly about it, they should open a separate case.

Edit: I mixed up my cases here. This case isn't quite groundless. Please continue to discuss.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Vellos on July 31, 2012, 09:55:02 PM

A verdict has been reached, and no IG enforcement actions are necessary. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

"The Magistrates find Joseph Lant not guilty of violating the Inalienable Rights or Social Contract in his outburst. It is not a crime to be frustrated, especially when other players have obviously violated the Social Contract against you: by threatening to take OOC issues IG, by blatantly excluding you from a realm for OOC reasons, by publicly accusing you of cheating, and by generally providing an unfriendly playing environment. The Magistrates are disappointed in the conduct of the player or players who chose to act this way, as it is out of line with the friendly playing atmosphere Battlemaster has tried to cultivate. As we have stated in previous rulings, we will not participate in anti-Saxon witch hunts, or allow accused "Saxons" to be subjected to the same exclusion of which they have been accused. Players in a long-standing realm with so much BM history like Perdan should know better."

Magistrates voted 4-0 in favor of the verdict.

This thread will remain open for a brief time to allow for any questions for clarification regarding the verdict.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: egamma on July 31, 2012, 10:50:52 PM

That's a pretty low vote, I thought that we needed 6 of 9 magistrates to reach a verdict?

(Note that I'm not objecting, just trying to clarify the rules)

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Vellos on August 01, 2012, 07:51:54 AM

Quote from: egamma on July 31, 2012, 10:50:52 PM

That's a pretty low vote, I thought that we needed 6 of 9 magistrates to reach a verdict?

(Note that I'm not objecting, just trying to clarify the rules)

We've been operating on a "majority of votes cast."

If there had been any serious dissent among the Magistrates, we might have hunted up some more to vote. But as it was the case seemed pretty open-and-shut.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Draco Tanos on August 01, 2012, 10:05:49 AM

Quote from: Vellos on July 31, 2012, 09:55:02 PM

by publicly accusing you of cheating

I have to say, this is a fallacy.  Atanamir "accused" him of being a "Saxon" clanner.  Which has been established due to the fact that he WAS deported for being a Saxon clanner, no?

Perhaps Atanamir went a little far by outright telling him to leave, but is it truly wrong for players to tell people with a known and acknowledged history of cheating that such behavior won't be tolerated in the realm?  After all, the realm is a team and such behavior reflects poorly on them.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Sacha on August 01, 2012, 10:38:21 AM

Telling them cheating isn't tolerated: perfectly fine.

Telling them to get out of your realm 'or else' because of prior offenses for which they've already been punished by the appropriate authorities: not fine.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: egamma on August 01, 2012, 02:43:27 PM

Quote from: Draco Tanos on August 01, 2012, 10:05:49 AM

Which has been established due to the fact that he WAS deported for being a Saxon clanner, no?

No, he was deported at random, more or less. It is entirely possible that one or two innocents were deported along with the clanners--read some of the other cases here for examples.

Title: Re: OOC Behaviour
Post by: Vellos on August 01, 2012, 05:51:43 PM

Furthermore, we are not tolerating further debate on the matter.

You can ask for clarification about the ruling, not make arguments against it. The debate is over.