BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: MTYL on September 08, 2018, 12:07:21 AM
-
This is something I feel strongly about, hence the discussion topic.
I'll say what I have to say in points:
- I am not aware of advies being used as (effective) weapons of war, so I assume it happened on East Continent. IIRC magic was supposed to be nerfed on EC and Colonies. It would fixed the problem better than the current "solution"
- On Dwi and BT advies should be allowed (to a degree) to be weapons of war.
- Even if advies are used effectively in war, I'd say there is a damn big counterbalance mechanic... as in they can be friggin killed! Capturing advies is like taking candy from a baby. If someone is ready to try and swing the fate of one battle/one region (doubtful) for the price of losing their character - ok, I guess it's a fair deal.
- Disabling advies from using magic takes one of the more fun (most fun?) aspects of advy game away. I know most people treat entire advy game as a gig to get artifacts/scroll for their pals, but there are few of us who actually enjoy it.
- Since I've learnt more about what prompted this... my question is - has anything like that happened ever before? Did it require a lot of people actively working together? Have it broke the stagnation on the island a bit? Have it rid us of a single-region new player death-trap realm? Could it be done by non-advies? If you answer yes to at least one of those questions (or no to the first one) then banning advies from magic was overreacting.
EDIT - Forgot to summarize.
Summary: Advies should not be disallowed to use magic.
-
Advies were never meant to become effective weapons of war and any means invented to turn them into such should be swiftly disabled.
-
Never say never!
People will use anything to their advantage. Why should advies be any exception. What advies were intended to be and what they are are two different issues. Let them be weapons on BT alone. It is a high magic island. I don't see why advies can't be wizards. Nobles should be allowed to build hogwarts so they can train these battlemages to blow up !@#$ty realms like Bara'Khur.
-
I tend to agree with most of MTYL's points:
I am not aware of advies being used as (effective) weapons of war, so I assume it happened on East Continent. IIRC magic was supposed to be nerfed on EC and Colonies. It would fixed the problem better than the current "solution"
- It was on Beluaterra.
On Dwi and BT advies should be allowed (to a degree) to be weapons of war.
- Yes perhaps magic should just be limited to Bel and Dwi. This gives players a choice to play where it best suits them.
Even if advies are used effectively in war, I'd say there is a damn big counterbalance mechanic... as in they can be friggin killed! Capturing advies is like taking candy from a baby. If someone is ready to try and swing the fate of one battle/one region (doubtful) for the price of losing their character - ok, I guess it's a fair deal.
- As far as I am aware, all the wounded nobles have mysteriously healed and have 3 adventurers in custody with one already been executed.
Disabling advies from using magic takes one of the more fun (most fun?) aspects of advy game away. I know most people treat entire advy game as a gig to get artifacts/scroll for their pals, but there are few of us who actually enjoy it.
- I love the adventurer game. 1 of my advies is is an apprentice, another on a different island is a sorceress, but now the whole backround story and makeup of those characters is now irelevent.
Since I've learnt more about what prompted this... my question is - has anything like that happened ever before?
- No, not on this scale as far as I know
Did it require a lot of people actively working together?
- Yes. Several players have put a lot of work into creating the event which has spurred this disscusion. Not to mention the ammount of time and commitment by all those involved. They acted upon a single region (yes, the only region of the realm), but to do it again to another region would take weeks or months of further prepping. Its not like a rogue force who can march around causing havoc every day.
Have it broke the stagnation on the island a bit?
- Too early to tell.
Have it rid us of a single-region new player death-trap realm?
I couldn't possibly comment.
Could it be done by non-advies?
- Yes absolutely it can. In fact it would have been more difficult to capture the culprits. Advies doing the task have taken a huge risk of execution.
If you answer yes to at least one of those questions (or no to the first one) then banning advies from magic was overreacting.
-
- I love the adventurer game. 1 of my advies is is an apprentice, another on a different island is a sorceress, but now the whole backround story and makeup of those characters is now irelevent.
Brigdha has established a reputation as a powerful sorceress on EC despite never having cast a scroll in her entire career so a huge amount can be achieved purely with RP and judicious use of game mechanics. But I agree that nerfing the use of scrolls for adventurers strikes me as an overreaction to a problem which is rare.
Looking at the event on BT which prompted this change it feels like the GMs are intervening to save Bara'Khur by changing game mechanics and removing the consequences of those game mechanics. Perhaps that's for the good of BT and the GMs are justified in doing so but given all the pressure that's being applied to make players clump into a few large realms it seems to run counter to that imperative.
Also up until now I've never heard anyone describe adventurers using scrolls as a bug so I'd certainly be interested to know when it was logged as such and why until now it's been considered such a low priority when clearly turning off the ability took very little effort.
If we are going to have scrolls doesn't it make much more sense that these would be the tools of adventurers unbound by social conventions than of nobles?
-
I think the devs could have just simply made the action of using a scroll take all your hours instead of just one or two hours. That would have prevented too many scrolls being used all at once. Also would have prevented advies from running away afterward.
-
Not all of em got away, three got caught , but since all of ten of us got wounded some did get away.
Of the three that did this i executed two and one got away. I am very salty about the whole situation. I understand that some people just wanted to have fun. But in you guys having your fun you ruined months of playing in trying to get our 1 region back to what it was before the invasions. Just 3 weeks ago we where back to 3 regions but was pushed back again and we were planing to attack another after this payday.
Seriously if you want to have fun on your Adventures , do so. But not at the expense of other players. By your logic the last ten players in Bara 'Khur should just pause. If this is your attitude the island wont last long.
-
I think the devs could have just simply made the action of using a scroll take all your hours instead of just one or two hours. That would have prevented too many scrolls being used all at once. Also would have prevented advies from running away afterward.
I quite like this suggestion
Seriously if you want to have fun on your Adventures , do so. But not at the expense of other players. By your logic the last ten players in Bara 'Khur should just pause. If this is your attitude the island wont last long.
To be fair I don't think anyone could predict the full effect of this event, I certainly didn't. I agree it was pretty devastating.
-
Dear Vita or other GM who intervened in Bar’Khur,
I am all fine if due to the complaints of one player group game rules get changed to the better (subjective though) but then please not to the disadvantage of another group. I am not sure if you realised but due to the post-event that you took away the commoner’s ability to cast scrolls, the player of Josiah has gone around and celebrated your intervention as his god’s deed and as being therefore supported IC. I am not sure if this is the play between friends we all want but so be it.
Now, since the commoners were not able to continue the attack and suddenly all critically/seriously wounded chars including the judge in Bara’Khur got the “ok†status in the middle of the a turn (that must have been also an intervention as this is otherwise impossible, right?) this gave them the advantage to execute my and a second commoner who again got caught from a char that got unpaused (before the intervention). Whether the unpausing was intentional or not to just intervene ICly, I can’t say. I also do not know if there were more interventions to help Bara’Khur in their situation they are (or were).
I thus kindly ask you to revive my commoner as well as well as all other commoners (Giovanni till now) who got executed as well. Otherwise it is clear that the GM intervention helped one player to execute the char of one other. See, chars can heal, walls can be rebuilt and regions or realms retaken or refounded. But my char or the one of the other chars once dead, are dead. No return possible there and that is what makes the GM intervention asymmetrical from my point of view and I am sure you can see a reasoning there. Because if this was a bug nobody knew about and we were playing along the for us legitimate game mech, then why should we be punished with the death of our chars? Both sides were victims of a bug in this case.
Regarding the general topic whether commoners should be able to cast scrolls, let me outline shortly the view from the other side: In a declining game, I tried to give players a RP that was within the game mech and the rules and which they accepted well and made the realm of Angmar thrive. We are one of the largest realms with a good noble count and the best commoner count (till now). We work together on a RP which we enjoy a lot, part of that are training missions for the commoners. Wudenkin was a kind of master exam in spellcasting for some of them since a Daimon loving cult had risen there and Angmar/Daishi deeply disliked it. It wasn’t just for fun to go kill a realm but a story behind it. To make the long story short: advies are no weapons as it is said in here. They are all independent chars with their own will. They could have done something else if they want it. A weapon is something that is without own will and gets fired when used. A scroll is a weapon. A commoner is a char. Otherwise we should also forbid portals as well...
Thank you for your time to read these lines.
-
I have been reading through the scroll lists.
From what i can gather the following was used to strike Wudenkin
4 x Hammerfall (This ritual creates a hammer of mystic energy that bashes on the fortifications in your current region, damaging them.) There might be more but i got wounded right after so i didnt get all the messages - What if i might ask is the counter to this?.
??? x Accident (This difficult ritual will cause another character to suffer from a serious accident, getting wounded in the process.) This must have been casted as hammerfall is not suppsed to wound players only fortifications. Since every single Bara Khur noble got wounded a few needed to be casted. Again how do i as a Player counter this type of attack?
4-6? Summon Undead (This scroll describes a ritual which can summon undead in your current location, possibly causing an undead unit to spawn within the next few days.) There was a total of +/- 14k Summoned - Again i dont have all the details on those.
If you want to play with magic fine, but then there should be counters and defenses worked in as well. From what i can understand there is no way for a counter to the type of "fun" you decided to use on us.
-
Arresting and killing an advy is a pretty good counter.
But I agree with the suggestion that scrolls should take more hours.
I was myself surprised how well the attacked worked...the advies had high spellcasting skill and most spells worked on the first try is surely a big reason.
-
Scroll of accident needs to be nerfed. It needs to have a chance to kill advies. I don't know why this scroll is so easy to use.
-
Arresting and killing an advy is a pretty good counter.
So you are saying just arrest every single advy you see and execute them immediately, since how do i know what they are planning on doing in a region. Since i dont have any defenses against them just kill em strait out. You know how many people this will alienate.
See, chars can heal, walls can be rebuilt and regions or realms retaken or refounded.
Before or after you march your huge armies down to clear us out now that we are screwed. There are no more walls. There are no militia. There are no more troops left. There are no more Gold left. We will not get taxes , so those with a few men left will all dessert. What you did here was totally to wipe certain players off the map. You ask for your advys back after the fact, fine. But once you get them back we are still screwed and everything we have been playing for since the Fronen/Bara Khur civil war has been undone and made naught
-
With all respect, first you torture, then you execute.
I expected to see Khamul tortured so you know from where he received his orders.
So now you have lost every chance to blame Angmar red handed for this attack.
About the rest, I just saw a battle report where your realm won a battle with 8k men of militia! Wow!
As I said before I do not know what else’s the admins did to help you I have not see a scouting of Wudenkin.
I also must say that the player of your ruler complained to us on the ruler channel that your realm is frustrated some weeks ago and that there is nothing worth fighting for so you will just raise militia in your city and wait for the inevitable. He even asked also other realms to give up and form bigger realms so we have a better density. This combined with that all-out-attack religion like Mordok gave at least to me the impression that Bara’Khur was just waiting for a last battle or assault or war before going down anyway...
-
I've seen tons of players use GM intervention IC. Not sure what your issue is there.
If you really don't understand why using commoners as weapons of war with no defense is wrong, i don't think anyone could convince you. Use nobles to destroy other nobles, as intended.
-
With all respect, first you torture, then you execute.
I have never had need to torture anyone in the game, i did not know that was how the mechanics worked. This was also the first time i have ever executed anyone. Those Militia was Peasant militia drafted today to try and fix the situation you placed us in. I was told to torture first but i didnt realize there was an actual point to doing it, i just thought of it as a dishonorable thing to do, so i skipped it.
Citizen Defense Force Formed
The Emperor has issued a draft, calling all citizens of the realm to join the citizen militia as a last, desperate means of defense against the invaders.
Forming 35 units with a total of 43379 combat strength, 7967 volunteers show up in Wudenkin. Production in the region falls 13 %. Those remaining in their homes grow depressed about their fates. The militia run independent through the region.
Josiah loses 7 points of prestige for showing this weakness.
I am not going to respond anymore, i'll see if it is still worth playing or just pause. Congratulations you have got what you wanted, total and complete victory. Well done
-
Please do not, BM lives from bitter sweet revenge stories.
But as I said, Bara’Khur isolates itsself quite a lot in re last weeks with that Mordoc thing, a conventional attack would have come sooner or later anyway and maybe even not from Angmar.
I also wholeheartedly invite you to join Angmar with Tam or a fresh character in case Bara’Khur falls or any other time.
You will see not everything is as evil as it seems.
-
Oh yeah because a realm that trusts commoners to carry out secret missions and worships battletech is so much fun.
We did the mordok stuff because it was somethibg new, something different. Before this attack not a single word was said in the daishi church about mordok at all, for two months. Dont claim the daishi church said anything about it to BK when literally no one said anything about it at all.
The adventurer attacks were bs and not fun.
-
Because you don’t see something, that does not mean it is not there.
Since we seem to move in circles in this discussion I just want to say that I can go with whatever decision is and will be made regarding the advy game and scrolls.
I just want that when GM intervene they protect all parties who suffered under the bug they had not mentioned untill now or none.
In this case they decided to help Bara’Khur arrest and kill advies, but if I knew that it was a bug, I would of course not have exploited it, my advy would be not with his comrades in Wudenkin and they would be still alive.
I believe the loss of a char you have played for months deserves as well to be protected from a bug that was not taken care of.
-
Losing a realm is always a sad experience. However when I try to put myself in your shoes I find it hard to replicate how you feel about it. I would have no problem if similar thing happened to any of the realms I play in. I would most certainly prefer it to stagnation and isolation. And I would absolutely prefer it to any not IC action, any OOC admin/dev/titan intervention.
I can't really recall people quit playing BM over IC actions. If it's something done by players to players it's fair game. Most of people floating away from BM do so out of losing interest due to inactivity or admin/dev/titan action ruining their gameplay.
-
It's not losing a realm that I care about, it's how it was done.
The accident scroll messages were bugged so not a single person in our realm was able to see why we were wounded. And all nobles in the city were wounded, without a single message. Then all the fortification torn down in effectively 2 turns, then a massive horde was summoned. All without the ability of anyone in our realm to do anything.
Adventurers should never, ever have that kind of power. Nobles should.
If it had been done by nobles, no issues or complaints here.
-
Each adventurer i saw had a noble in that realm.
Plus nobles should never, ever, trust a commoner with that kind of power. They are commoners.
-
Plus the nobles of those realms were the ones who gave scrolls to their own adventurers. Each adventurer i saw had a noble in that realm. They were just an extension of the noble.
Plus nobles should never, ever, trust a commoner with that kind of power. They are commoners.
Hold your horses there. You are insinuating things.
First, someone can’t give his own commoner scrolls, second you were attacked from commoners from three different realms and not all have that combination you claim.
You should really stop it here.
I will refrain commenting this further and leave again the forum.
I just came here to make clear that the GM intervention has hurt also the attackers a lot, two commoners are dead, they are after all chars to the players who lost them.
-
The ones i saw all had nobles of their family in the realms they were from.
You're telling me you would have trusted an adventurer from someone who had a noble in OS or BK to do these things? Or did you only trust adventurers who had nobles in realms that agreed with you.
-
And again. No noble shoupd ever trust a single adventurer to do these things let alone many. Too many people play nobles who trust and respect commoners.
-
Plus the nobles of those realms were the ones who gave scrolls to their own adventurers. Each adventurer i saw had a noble in that realm. They were just an extension of the noble.
Not true.
-
Ill specify. I have nothing against players using adventurers. Or anything against the players who did this. My issue is with the fact, plain and simple, thar adventurers should never be able to destroy a realm. Ever
-
In a logical world, the moment a single commoner gets that kind of power, nobles would kill them. Whether or not they helped them. They are commoners.
Likewise commoners should almost never interact with nobles for fear of being beaten and killed.
-
If that's how you want it, then get rid of adventurers.
The fact is that adventurers are better than your average commoner. They are an integral part of the game and do special and dangerous missions for nobles all the time. Some nobles treat them as dirty commoners. Some as trusted servants.
Now on the comment about Daishi...the high priestess of Daishi declared them an evil daimon worshipping cult several days ago the moment she got confirmation of the text on the Mordoc temple. That was before the attack happened I think. I wasn't involved in the attack and didn't know it was happening, but I saw that and made the change and then later heard about the attack.
So that is my memory of the order.
-
Bronnen - I agree with you on accident messages being bugged screwing you over. And since consequences were this dire there ought to be some sort of intervention, because noone can say if all that would've happened if it weren't for this bug. Perhaps you would arrest those advies in time.
As for the horde - it wasn't summoned. Most of it happened to be around.
As for using advies in this way and trusting them with such power... well I guess nobles use commoners to do their bidding all the time. I agree however that trusting them exclusively with something like that and not sending even one noble to keep them in check should come back to bite them in the ass.
I guess it's mainly fault of isolation and lack of interaction. It was a big endeavor, normally you should catch wind of it before it happened.
It's just that BM design does not fit it's current playerbase. Especially on BT. And we're all screwed by this but I am certain that taking away from people is only going to make this worse.
-
It's just that BM design does not fit it's current playerbase. Especially on BT. And we're all screwed by this but I am certain that taking away from people is only going to make this worse.
This. Currently, BT is slowly stagnating away, a shell of what it was- in my view for a variety of reasons, including the blighted map and lower playerbase- desperately in need of fixing somehow. PvP wars aren't likely to happen for IRL years, if the remaining player base sticks around through the exercise of masochism that is grinding against the "density" monsters and dead- both on BT and Dwilight.
In this case, many dozens of players thus went through the trouble of collecting these scrolls, and created the most significant event that has been seen in months on the continent- since this density invasion began at least. Again, players- not manual intervention through portals, making it that much more important- and yes, the effects were devastating, and the fact that 8-9 advies did the castings can be debated- however this was precisely what was envisioned with the scrolls - I distinctly recall them being referred to as mechanisms to have player controlled invasions.
Instead of recognising these things, both on discord and the forum, the players involved were accused of ooc coordination, exploitation and bug abuse. I am not even going to bother with the coordination BS, but since I heard the bug abuse come up multiple times- and apparently the bug is advies using scrolls- How can there be bug abuse when no one knows this is a bug? How can it be bug abuse when one of the game's chief devs himself doesn't agree it was a bug? Meanwhile, these allegations get thrown around freely and flippantly. I thought that part of the social contract is not to publicly accuse anyone of cheating and abuses?
The underlying problem here is that BT and Dwilight are now nothing more than grinds against monster/undead hordes. I somehow don't think this is part of Tom's vision for the game either- and yes, perhaps that is a symptom of the declining player base, who are all desperately trying to make do in these circumstances. Instead of throwing accusations at folks playing a game, it would be nice if there was a proper discussion on how to fix the game in a way that brings people to it instead of driving them away.
Based on the many discussions on discord, people are not short on ideas on how to do this- I personally think bringing back a resettable SI is the best thing that can happen short term. However, what has happened to BT and Dwi cannot be ignored either- and I think there needs to be an open discussion with the players at large to figure out what we can do together for these two worlds, and what players would be happy to see happen to this islands to make them fun again.
-
Dear Vita,
I am all fine if due to the complaints of one player group game rules get changed but then please not to the disadvantage of another group. I am not sure if you realised but post-event that you took away the commoner’s ability to cast scrolls, the player of Josiah goes around and celebrates your seed as his god’s deed and being therefore supported against the others IC. I am not sure if this is the play between friends we all want but so be it.
Now, since the commoners were not able to continue the attack and suddenly all critically/seriously wounded chars including the judge in Bara’Khur got the “ok†status in the middle of the a turn (that must have been also an intervention as this is other wise impossible, right?) this gave them the advantage to execute my commoner who again got caught from a char that got unpaused (before the intervention). Whether the unpausing was intentional or not, I can’t say and I won’t comment further. I also do not know if there more interventions to help Bara’Khur in their situation they are (or were).
I this ask you to revive my commoner as well as well as all other commoners (Giovanni, Samuel) who got caught in case they will be executed as well. Otherwise it is clear that the GM helped one player to execute the char of one other. See, chars can heal, walls can be rebuilt and regions or realms retaken or refounded. But my char or the one of the other chars once dead, are dead. No return possible there and that is what makes the GM intervention asymmetrical from my point of view and I am sure you can see a reasoning there.
Regarding the general topic whether commoners should be able to cast scrolls, let me outline shortly the view from the other side: In a declining game, I tried to give players a RP that was within the game mech and the rules and which they accepted well and made the realm of Angmar thrive. We are one of the largest realms with a good noble count and the best commoner count (till now). We work together on a RP which we enjoy a lot, part of that are training missions for the commoners. Wudenkin was the master exam in spellcasting for some of them. To make the long story short: they are no weapons as it is said in here. They are all independent chars with their own will. They could have done something else if they want it. A weapon is something that is without own will and gets fired when used. A scroll is a weapon. A commoner is a char.
Thank you for your time to read this lines.
Max Mustermann
Max cannot currently log onto the forums, and asked that I pass this message along.
-
Max cannot currently log onto the forums, and asked that I pass this message along.
I logged in in the meantime and created a new account, thanks for the forwarding. I even had time to correct some spelling errors from the original message and put some more thought into it. 🤣
-
I just want to say that:
1. I never heard of Adventurers using scrolls was a bug. Ever. Until this event.
2. I, or any player with a noble that has high spellcasting, could waltz over to Bara’Khur loaded with scrolls and do the same thing that these adventurers did, and you could neither arrest the noble to stop it, nor execute them. You couldn't even get a ban on them.
-
I think one important point was made above.
The devs have always said that giving us the scrolls was to force us to attack other players. Because if we don't, they go off randomly.
So we have a case here of players from one guild getting together and doing exactly that. Attacking other players in another realm.
They spent months preparing and at least a week actually executing the attack. This was the greatest player-created event in this game in months.
The first response should not be to call them OOC cheaters and bug abusers. Especially when the players were never told it was a bug. And when this same tactic was used months ago against a different realm with no similar response. Granted, that was in the open field, not citybusting, but it's something to consider. They exhausted (or at least severely depleted) the supply of scrolls in western BT with exactly the kind of attack we've been told we needed to do by the devs multiple times in the past to keep those scrolls from randomly going off in our own homelands.
If you don't like the results, change how scrolls work. I'm fine with that. But don't blame the players for doing exactly what they were told they had to do with the tools they were given to do it with.
That's BS.
PS. Angmar has been planning and preparing for something exactly like this for months. Years maybe now? From the moment he left Nothoi and founded Angmar, he has roleplayed it as a magic using kingdom and has assembled the best collection of nobles and adventurers in a pure mission to gain more scrolls. I've tried to replicate that, to no real luck let me tell you, in Nothoi at least in some way. Angmar blasted Gotland with magic attacks during their war a while back. It was no surprise they could do something like this. At least not to me. But then I've been watching.
So when another realm declares themselves to be worshiping the Daimons that Daishi is opposed to? Don't be surprised when a realm that follows Daishi (especially one that follows a more militant version of Daishi than my character generally preaches) goes ballistic on them. It's sorta going to happen.
Boom. Boom today. Boom tomorrow. Boom SOMEtime...
Boom.
-
I'm interested in hearing why critically wounded characters were quite suddenly healed. Since we have a policy of not reversing the effects of bugs, and since it adversely affected my character who would not have been executed otherwise.
-
I just want to say that:
1. I never heard of Adventurers using scrolls was a bug. Ever. Until this event.
2. I, or any player with a noble that has high spellcasting, could waltz over to Bara’Khur loaded with scrolls and do the same thing that these adventurers did, and you could neither arrest the noble to stop it, nor execute them. You couldn't even get a ban on them.
Also, since somebody brought it up, Angmar and Bara’Khur were not formally at war (I had to check with Max, since my Angmar character is currently in rogue prison ::)), so a noble from Angmar without a unit could do #2 without fear of arrest or capture, just make sure to target the ruler first so they can't change relations.
-
To make the long story short: advies are no weapons as it is said in here. They are all independent chars with their own will.
Right, which basically all belong the players who also have nobles in Angmar. Totally independant. They just spawned in whatever realms they spawned in, and then decided to go to Angmar specifically, because they are completely independent and had a completely independent urge to go join the player's other noble characters. The only advy I'm aware of that was involved, but that didn't have a noble in Angmar, was one who belonged to a player who is known to collaborate with the rest of these players everywhere else.
No, bull on "independant chars with their own free will". We got rid of 2 nobles per continent because one tended to just be a drone and most players would use them as a unit. But those days are not gone. People do the exact same thing with adventurers now. Using them as weapons of war for their noble character's realm. Advies are the new alts.
-
Right, which basically all belong the players who also have nobles in Angmar. Totally independant. They just spawned in whatever realms they spawned in, and then decided to go to Angmar specifically, because they are completely independent and had a completely independent urge to go join the player's other noble characters. The only advy I'm aware of that was involved, but that didn't have a noble in Angmar, was one who belonged to a player who is known to collaborate with the rest of these players everywhere else.
No, bull on "independant chars with their own free will". We got rid of 2 nobles per continent because one tended to just be a drone and most players would use them as a unit. But those days are not gone. People do the exact same thing with adventurers now. Using them as weapons of war for their noble character's realm. Advies are the new alts.
You are more bitter than my Witch-king could ever be - and oh boy he can be bitter.
I do not think insinuations and OOC attacks like these on other players will bring us forward in this.
I want to publically thank Vita for his sincere reply that I received via Abjur as OOC message I game.
But as Stabbity says, I still think that the executed chars Khamul and Giovanni should be revived in order to balance the effects of the GM intervention.
The rest is history for me as wise men say...