| Summary: | Mocking the Magistrate decision |
| Violation: | Social Contract/Magistrate Decision |
| World: | Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Dorjan Vidakovic (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=30951) |
| About: | Orris (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=25893) |
Not that I agree with what Orris is doing, but do the Magistrates have the power to make enforceable requirements of players that go beyond warnings and account locking?
I'm inclined to think we should go ahead and slab on a lock. It was never the intention of the Magistrate ruling that he should get off scot-free.I, for one, don't think he got off scot-free. His integrity as a player has been brought into question publicly, and he was found in breach. The intended punishment was a public shaming that couldn't occur because (of all ironies) another bug. Every time one of his characters appears in a realm now, they will carry this stigma. That's a pretty high price to pay already.
And as we now know, the "announce publicly" feature doesn't actually work... so he never even really got reprimanded in any meaningful sense.
I, for one, don't think he got off scot-free. His integrity as a player has been brought into question publicly, and he was found in breach. The intended punishment was a public shaming that couldn't occur because (of all ironies) another bug. Every time one of his characters appears in a realm now, they will carry this stigma. That's a pretty high price to pay already.
I think this of very poor taste, for it is /not/ how friends playing a board game together would behave.
It must suck hard to be on Summerdale's position.Especially now there's 20k of enemy CS jammed into that one region. I know thats an IC development, but it still makes it suck all the harder.
I remember a whole realm got turned rogue once on FEI. Not saying the same should happen to LE... but I wouldn't mind for the way they've been playing.
Lorgan,
Please cite examples of how the realm has been playing in a matter that is inconsistent with the social contract, otherwise disassociate the player of a single character from the group of 20 players who make up the realm.
I would say a 3 day lock for disregarding the order, give 48 to 72 hours after that for him to disband the militia when the lock is lifted and, if again ignored, another lock.Good job at completely ignoring Dante's post. You say it is a slap on the wrist but 3 days can be a lot. And honestly the whole a public warning thing doesn't work doesn't matter as Summerdale went on SA and trash talked Orris and the queen of LE too I believe. The queen's reputation didn't really get hurt but Orris's reputation has been trashed in game and the family ooc for his other characters which I am sure Summerdale players will treat differently in their realm with all their characters. Also if I was told that my account would be locked continously if I wasn't able to disband the militia in the deadline I would just quit BM. Sure, I could get it done eventually though I might not be available for a couple days and then I would lose all my titles of which Orris has for his other characters that aren't easy to get. Right now some players of Summerdale seem trying to make Orris have to quit or at the very least wreck the rest of the time he plays.
But then, I believe actually punishing people gets better results than what amounts to a slap on the wrist and showing people that at the worst you get a 3 day lock for ignoring the magistrates and your misdeeds are allowed to continue.
when the vile witchcraft and daimon-worship of Orris Morton is cleansed from Mount Nastrond; when the slithering Queen of the Liberates has no more villages to hide within--she hides even now in the pigpens and the haystacks of Torrent's Breath in a way unbecoming of true majesty;
Orris Morton hired the services of a witch to turn our soldiers in Mt. Black against us. I have no quarrel with the other nobles of Libero, but his crimes shall not be forgotten.
My eyes have not seen the good Queen in her true whereabouts, therefore my tongue should be still. Yet my own eyes have seen the bewitching of five hundred Dalian men on Mount Nastrond in a most inexplicable manner. Monstrously, they do not even have feelings for the families they left behind them, the honor that they have broken. It is marvellous strange, and his Reverend Excellence may perhaps wish to examine the matter further for his own peace of mind.
These matters at least bear investigation. Now that it is in the open, I demand that Queen Elsebeth explain the actions of her subject, or an investigation is begun immediately. If neither is done, I would call the legitimacy of her position in these halls into question. I shall trust that the nobility of Libero had no part in this; but if she does not either condemn or explain the actions of Orris Morton, what are we to think?
"He ensorcells men to break faith with their rightful lords, and he commands the monstrous to his bidding. They say he keeps a witch with him, an ugly old hag, with more warts than hairs on her wrinkled head. To dark demons beneath the earth, where the auspicious star never has shone, she made an evil pact. She traded her fair features and gained foul magicks! But what the demons drained from her beauty, they added to her carnal lusts. The word is... she comes to Morton's bedchambers at night, and for the cost of a good hard drabbing, the ugly bitch lends him her vile powers next morning!"This does seem like the characters of Tancred and Cairo were bad-mouthing Orris and the queen of Libero Empire since everyone of those quotes were from one of the two. I did say in game which I meant as in character. I would not say my thought of Orris and the queen of Libero Empire to be "speculation and guesswork" considering they are quotes there not things I made up.
trashed talked orris and the queen of LE
Right now some players of Summerdale seem trying to make Orris have to quit or at the very least wreck the rest of the time he plays.
Now you're making a generalization.I did say some but you are right that I probably shouldn't have said that as it is more of a generalization.
After reexamining it was more of two characters who decided to talk bad about both Orris and the LE Queen. This does seem like the characters of Tancred and Cairo were bad-mouthing Orris and the queen of Libero Empire since everyone of those quotes were from one of the two. I did say in game which I meant as in character. I would not say my thought of Orris and the queen of Libero Empire to be "speculation and guesswork" considering they are quotes there not things I made up.
Dear Players,
I do not feel i am "mocking" the magistrate's decision. Those words are rather harsh. I did disband some of the militia, but ran out of funds. I then explained the defection of the remaining Summerdale troops in character, having them join our realm because of the freedom it offers as opposed to the oppression of Summerdale, being led far away from their homes to be an occupation force.
I recieved some gold from another player in order to rebuild my forces so i could continue disbanding militia. But the pending attack by our enemies. has left me with the feeling that disbanding them now would be a betrayal of my fellow realmmates. I earlier did destroy the recruiting centers in Mt Black, that i had constructed. I'll abide by whatever decision you say, deleting the character, leaving the game, whatever. I've enjoyed the game since 2008, I have never cheated, and do not feel i have at this time. Indeed, I wonder how many ore "power gaming" having multiple characters in Dwilight, when we should each have but one? But that is another story, for another day...
I then explained the defection of the remaining Summerdale troops in character, having them join our realm because of the freedom it offers as opposed to the oppression of Summerdale, being led far away from their homes to be an occupation force.
You're mixing up IC and OOC again. What does this have to do with anything? Are you claiming that our in-character messages were just sent to make Orris' player quit?I stated in an earlier post that the public warning doesn't seem needed considering they have, in my opinion, said he was cheating though it was in-character, and otherwise badmouthed his character which seems a punishment in itself, though I am not argueing that should be the only punishment. So my point is this makes a public warning not necessary since it has already been circulated and that this should be included as a punishment that has been one whether considered minor or not, when people say the player is getting a slap on the wrist.
I'm not in Summerdale or in LE, I'm all the way South in LN so I can't give any details, all I can say is that I've followed this case and if you are ordered by the Magistrates - in what is in my opinion a very lenient sentence - to disband the militia, that you gained by a bug exploitation, in a strategic region, that you also gained by bug exploitation, as fast as possible, then you better do it. Because frankly, you've already gained enough by even being allowed to keep the region in the first place.
What I'm reading everywhere however is that you've been trying to postpone it, you've been adding your own militia before removing it all, the player of Orris or whatever he's called again has had the time to run around a bit and replace his unit with a new fancy one.... All of it points to the entire realm of LE not taking this seriously and purposely exploiting a bug.
If you were honest in all of this, you would have said "Ok, we got the region back, nice. Now give that Orris some gold and get him to disband all of the militia immediately so we can get on with this war."
In stead you went and postponed and delayed and now you've gotten Morek on your side and your safe anyway. And still you haven't removed all the militia.
The fact is that LE benefitted from the stale-mate that resulted from the region switch and you have used every bit of time that it granted you to strengthen your position - from adding your own militia to ensuring Morek's help - in stead of letting this war run it's natural, less beneficent, course. That is something that cannot be blamed on one player, you can maybe blame the amount of time on him, but you cannot blame him for the way you used that time. That's all on you.
If it'd be up to me, I'd switch the region right back to Summerdale with all of the militia you've added. And I think that's what should've been done in the first place to prevent this bug from being even more abused, which it has been. By LE, not just by Orris.
And no I'm not saying that you shouldn't do all you can to win this war, but you should have done it after doing what you were told to do by the Magistrates. And you should've been happy with it, others wouldn't have been so lenient. And apparently, they would've been right not to be.
Dear Players,
I do not feel i am "mocking" the magistrate's decision. Those words are rather harsh. I did disband some of the militia, but ran out of funds.
I recieved some gold from another player in order to rebuild my forces so i could continue disbanding militia. But the pending attack by our enemies. has left me with the feeling that disbanding them now would be a betrayal of my fellow realmmates.
Good job at completely ignoring Dante's post. You say it is a slap on the wrist but 3 days can be a lot. And honestly the whole a public warning thing doesn't work doesn't matter as Summerdale went on SA and trash talked Orris and the queen of LE too I believe. The queen's reputation didn't really get hurt but Orris's reputation has been trashed in game and the family ooc for his other characters which I am sure Summerdale players will treat differently in their realm with all their characters. Also if I was told that my account would be locked continously if I wasn't able to disband the militia in the deadline I would just quit BM. Sure, I could get it done eventually though I might not be available for a couple days and then I would lose all my titles of which Orris has for his other characters that aren't easy to get. Right now some players of Summerdale seem trying to make Orris have to quit or at the very least wreck the rest of the time he plays.It is easy to ignore Dante's post. He views 3 days as a horrible punishment that will surely teach a person their lesson. I do not. It only shows that you can ignore the magistrates and then not have to do what you were punished for in the first place.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with the decision of the magistrates, and I think that if Summerdale was playing this as a board game with friends themselves they'd've sent some of the new players our way, but -- the magistrates made a decision, and it should be followed.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with the decision of the magistrates, and I think that if Summerdale was playing this as a board game with friends themselves they'd've sent some of the new players our way
Yeah let's string this guy up over 2700 immobile CS. That's enough strength to literally change the course of any war.
and in the meantime Libero brought in Morek troops.
Yeah let's string this guy up over 2700 immobile CS. That's enough strength to literally change the course of any war.I thought this was more about the fact that he ignored a ruling than anything else.
Let's start ten new topics on the boards and keep re-trying him in public until we get the verdict we want. Let's act like little kids over this minor advantage our enemy got.I don't think the person you're replying to, or most of the people in this thread, are even in Summerdale, so you can't really dismiss their arguments as whining. Also, nobody is trying to change the verdict, they're trying to get the verdict that was already decided enforced. A few of us (including me) didn't even support the idea of having them disband the militia in the first place, much less expect it to be the ruling. But that's what was decided, so we kind of expected it to be over with and done two weeks later.
Actually it's 5400 CS, as one side lost 2700 and the other side gained it. And if you think a change of 5400 CS in a pivotal region can't be enough to swing the course of a war, you haven't fought in many wars. Particularly when that CS was meant to be disbanded, Summerdale specifically waited for it to be disbanded, and in the meantime Libero brought in Morek troops. So yeah. That certainly can change the course of a war.
I don't think the person you're replying to, or most of the people in this thread, are even in Summerdale, so you can't really dismiss their arguments as whining.
I'm not even replying to anyone in particular, that's the sad part. My chief complaint is the rhetoric you're all using, the accusations and the veiled (and not-so-veiled) insults. He did not kill your father, so please stop acting like it's the end of the world.
It doesn't matter how much militia there is or where it is or how this affects the war in any way. This is simply about a Magistrate verdict apparently being willingly ignored.
That's not true. He did not entirely ignore it. He did, however, not go the whole nine yards.
But he's being made out like someone who stood up in the marketplace, lowered his pants and pointed his behind in the general direction of the magistrates, which is not what he did. His messages seem respectful, though I agree he doesn't seem to understand some things about what was expected from him.
As the formulation in the verdict was fairly soft ("we expect [...] insofar as he is able [...]") I can in part sympathise with him. However, he does seem to take things lightly, which is something the game invites you to do, being casual-friendly and all. Most people here seem to take things way, way too seriously. And play to win more than to have fun.
If we want the Magistrates to be taken seriously, then we need to take them seriously.
If we want exploitation of bugs to be taken seriously, then we need to take it seriously.
If, however, we want to encourage people to take the game as meaning nothing, then by all means, be lenient with people who "take lightly" the directives of the group that is intended to replace the Titans as the primary method of the enforcement of the rules in BattleMaster.
In the past, Tom, I've seen you throw lightning bolts for less disrespect than this player is showing. I think that might be a little over the top here, but I think that brushing it off as the guy "taking it lightly", and saying that those who want to see the actual rules followed and the actual Magistrate verdict enforced are "taking things too seriously," is extremely wrongheaded and would set a very dangerous precedent.
Strawman. Nobody is taking extra money every turn.
I don't see anyone openly disrespecting the magistrates, either. Disrespect reads differently.
So not only did he just decide, on his own, not to comply with the Magistrates' ruling, but he turned it into an opportunity to spout some propaganda. He says he "ran out of funds," but had plenty to recruit himself a nice unit.
This, to me, shows a basic lack of respect for the Magistrates' authority, and while clearly not a deliberate attempt to mock them, it nonetheless should not be allowed to stand if we want the Magistrates to be seen as a true enforcement body.
His RP seems to be in direct response to someone else's RP accusing him of witchcraft. I don't see anything wrong with it in and of itself, as the militia are still around IG and must be acknowledged until they're gone.
The real problem is that no clear deadline was set for his compliance, nor even a total consensus on what the Magistrate ruling actually meant.
This shouldn't even be a trial, though, as it's just serving as another vehicle to call him out as a cheater and 'sploiter. If the Magistrates want to enforce their decision based on an arbitrary amount of time then they could easily handle it behind closed doors, otherwise it looks like they're caving in to a vocal minority if they actually do vote to lock his account.
I cannot see any reasonable interpretation of the Magistrates' ruling that would permit that; therefore, unless he repents and finishes the disbanding of the militia post-haste, I believe it is fully appropriate to proceed with locking his account.Why bother messing around? He shouldn't have had the lordship in the first place, and he's decided and publicly stated that he's not going to follow the judgment. After that last battle, chances are that most of the militia are already dead, so he can't disband them, or enough are gone that disbanding them would be meaningless. He shouldn't have the lordship, so just kick him out of his position and get this case over with. The longer this drags on, the more this whole situation becomes a public spectacle, a black eye for the Magistrates, and a sore spot for everyone involved.
Why bother messing around? He shouldn't have had the lordship in the first place, and he's decided and publicly stated that he's not going to follow the judgment. After that last battle, chances are that most of the militia are already dead, so he can't disband them, or enough are gone that disbanding them would be meaningless. He shouldn't have the lordship, so just kick him out of his position and get this case over with. The longer this drags on, the more this whole situation becomes a public spectacle, a black eye for the Magistrates, and a sore spot for everyone involved.
Can't agree more. His action is affecting the entire war. Well actually his action has already changed the outcome of the war. No point on fixing it now.
Why not? Surely there should be a difference in punishment for exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that, say, gives your region 100 extra food bushels, compared to exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that changes the outcome of a war.
Just like the other one who complained about "simplistic math", you ignore the context. 2700 CS in some unimportant region? No, not that important. 2700 CS in a vital defensive region, that was then able to be reinforced with other militia and troops while Summerdale waited in vain for the Magistrate's ruling to be carried out? Completely different.
That attack by Summerdale that just failed. If you took away that 2700 militia (plus whatever extra militia Libero had stuffed into the region that they wouldn't have been able to if the bug hadn't happened), gave it and the region back to Summerdale (a switch of 5400 CS total) and then had Morek + Libero attack the region with Summerdale defending. Think there would have been a different outcome to that battle?
And because Summerdale waited for the Magistrate order to be carried out, Morek had time to join the war and re-inforce the region further. All because this player exploited a bug.
I don't have a character in Summerdale, and don't really care much about either realm outside this case. Don't blame Summerdale players for what non-Summerdale people do.
Would disbanding 2700 CS alone have changed the whole war? No. But it is the compounding of the initial bug's effects that are causing so much damage. A bug gave Libero an extra region and 2700 extra CS. The player that exploited the bug tore down the recruitment centers specifically to hurt Summerdale if they ever got the region back (because what other reason was there to tear down the centers?). The Magistrates told him to disband the militia. Summerdale held off attacking while they waited for that order to be carried out. The player delayed disbanding the militia, deliberately as we see now, and in the meantime more militia has been put in the region. And because Summerdale waited for the Magistrate order to be carried out, Morek had time to join the war and re-inforce the region further. All because this player exploited a bug.
Summerdale holding off on attacking the region, I think was an IC military mistake. Even if the order was carried out fully in as an efficient time frame as possible, it would still take time to do so, and Libero would have time to counter act it. The region was weakest when it first switched, and attacking and not waiting goes with the 'play through bugs' sentiment.
I think, Dante, just as upset as you were about all Libero nobles being lumped in with what happened, I am just as offended at you saying the players of Summerdale are on a witchhunt. (Though if you mean IC, you're completely right)
Was the Magistrate's verdict obeyed? That is what were discussing. Not whether it was a good verdict, whether obeying it would have changed anything. If he had disbanded them, Libero (or Orris, if you like) could have easily replaced them. As stated elsewhere, leaving the region militia less wasn't the intent of the verdict. That the militia had to be disbanded, then replaced with Orris' time and gold (or donated gold) if he wanted the militia there was. His player posted that he chose not to do so, even RPing a reason not to.
We weren't just waiting there until the militia was disbanded, our general planned to attack whether it was removed or not the entire time. The time was spent taking over one of Libero's regions and fighting monsters. The plan was never to just wait until the militia was gone and attack.
We must "play through the bugs" which means that they aren't going to simply return the region to Summerdale.
(...) and I think that if Summerdale was playing this as a board game with friends themselves they'd've sent some of the new players our way (...)
For what it's worth, I don't think the player of Orris has ever intended to hurt anyone with this. If I understand things right, he views Battlemaster as a game that people shouldn't get worked up about, and that therefore people shouldn't get upset about anything in it (at least, that's my best read on what he's expressed to me).
I recieved some gold from another player in order to rebuild my forces so i could continue disbanding militia. But the pending attack by our enemies. has left me with the feeling that disbanding them now would be a betrayal of my fellow realmmates.
For future cases, I would strongly suggest reviewing this statement.
Fair play means returning the region (and militia) to Summerdale, in the same state the Lord took/kept it, and continue playing. If you decide to "play through" a bug exploit (switching the allegiance of the region back to the Libero Empire), then you have started with the wrong foot, and legitimized a lovely abuse of the game. Anything that follows will be unsatisfactory.
If we consider bugs to always be necessary to be changed if they hurt or benefit one realm/character/player over another then a dangerous precedent is set. The devs/Tom spend enough time on the game volunteering to help create the game what it is. If they were to implement a policy based upon revoking all bugs (because any bug can be argued to benefit one over another) then they would have no time to actually work on the game itself. So long as this is a free game to play, and our developers work on a volunteer basis, I can't see how we can implement a system requiring their daily monitoring of all bugs to make sure the game is "fair" for everyone.
Namely, we try our best, and work through those times things aren't fair. Anything else is unreasonable to ask.
Just give the region to Summerdale along with any troops inside it as militia at this point. The Magistrates' leniency has been abused for too long as is. Leave the offender as lord so he can even be banished by Summerdale.Once again you ignore people, the dev policy is to play through bugs. It is not playing through it when you give the region back with militia of Libero's though there might have still been some Summerdale militia. Basically, you are saying anytime that a bug is exploited, all that are victims or effected in anyway deserve to do the bug back to the perpotrator.
Once again you ignore people, the dev policy is to play through bugs. It is not playing through it when you give the region back with militia of Libero's though there might have still been some Summerdale militia. Basically, you are saying anytime that a bug is exploited, all that are victims or effected in anyway deserve to do the bug back to the perpotrator.
Why not? Surely there should be a difference in punishment for exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that, say, gives your region 100 extra food bushels, compared to exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that changes the outcome of a war.