| Summary: | Realm Merger of Solaria and Luria Nova |
| Violation: | exploiting a bug and/or realm mergers are illegal |
| World: | Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Eric Henson (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=23524) |
| About: | Sevastian (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32986) |
Region Changes Allegiance
message to Everyone on Dwilight
Tranquil has changed its allegiance to the realm of Luria Nova. The region used to belong to Solaria.
Duchy Changes Allegiance (7 minutes ago)
message to Everyone on Dwilight
The Courts of Stone has changed its allegiance with all its regions to the realm of Luria Nova. The duchy used to belong to Solaria.
| Summary: | Ruler of Solaria performed a complete realm merger |
| Violation: | Realm merger rule |
| World: | Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Joe Truba (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=7025) |
| About: | Kyle Douglass (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32986) |
Duchy Joins Realm  (10 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Luria Nova
Sevastian Guile has changed the allegiance of The Courts of Stone to your realm. The duchy used to be a part of Solaria.
Together with the duke, the following knights joined your realm: Sevastian Guile, Obsidian Maldives.
[protest options]
Duchy Changes Allegiance  (10 minutes ago)
message to Everyone on Dwilight
The Courts of Stone has changed its allegiance with all its regions to the realm of Luria Nova. The duchy used to belong to Solaria.
This merged the last region of Solaria into Luria Nova. The only person with knowledge that this even could happen (since it should have been prevented by game code) was the ruler of Solaria -- Sevastian Guile.
Definately an exploit. However, I would also like to know the intent behind the second duchy flip. Perhaps the character was trying to cash his chips and keep whatever titles and lands he had left. Doesn't take away from the fact that he exploited a bug however.
there was no funds to relocate the capital to Balance's Retreat.
Is that intended? I would have expected the capital to relocate automatically with no need of funds.
Is that intended? I would have expected the capital to relocate automatically with no need of funds.
Losing your capital is intended to cause problems. This is not intended to be a solution to those problems.
Losing your capital is intended to cause problems. This is not intended to be a solution to those problems.
Then the option shouldn't have been available IMHO.
There are two bugs here.
One, the duchy containing the capital should not be allowed to switch realms.
Two, the last duchy of a realm should not be allowed to switch realms.
Whoever made the first duchy change without reporting it as a bug is as guilty as Sebastian.
There are two bugs here.
One, the duchy containing the capital should not be allowed to switch realms.
Two, the last duchy of a realm should not be allowed to switch realms.
the realm page of Solaria still listed Poryatown as the capital.
So, is this really not a bug? I find it hard to believe.
2) Having your capital remain a region outside your realm is not a bug.
This has been allowed for as long as we've had duchies.
Unless Tom changes it by fiat right now:so could they have recruited at Poryatu, or is it their capital only in title?
1) Being able to change the allegiance of the capital duchy is not a bug.
2) Having your capital remain a region outside your realm is not a bug.
It has been possible for your capital to belong to another realm for...well, probably since takeovers were first enabled back in 2001 or whatever.
either way... bug re: flipping last duchy to another realm has been there since daimon invasion.Pretty sure even then people said it was an obvious bug. I think it bothered fewer people as it was only involving NPC forces.
eg: Fheuvenem flipped to enweil whilst getting TO'ed
Solaria had two duchies. One contained a city, the other a stronghold. Sun Hall aligned with Luria Nova, leaving Solaria with a single duchy and a stronghold. This has never been a bug, unless we redefine bug to mean something that has been explicitly allowed and not coded to prevent. The merger of the second duchy into Luria Nova should not have been allowed, because the code is supposed to prevent this from happening when a realm is left with a single city/stronghold. It was a behavior that was not expected, given the parameters in the code.
Please be mindful of how the word "bug" is used. In part, because it means something very specific to the code, which is not publicly-accessible. Also because you open the door to the silliness of defining behavior that one might find personally disadvantageous, or not properly understood, as a bug. BattleMaster is littered with examples of conventional wisdom about cerrtain things being completely wrong because someone said X and everyone agreed.
Pretty sure even then people said it was an obvious bug. I think it bothered fewer people as it was only involving NPC forces.
Allegiance switches of the capital have always been unintentional.
I think this can safely be considered a miscommunication between the devs and Tom.
Second is the fact that the player accused exploited what he knew was a loophole to flip his duchy. His earlier post gives me the feeling he knew he shouldn't have been able to flip the last duchy in the realm, when he said he felt the capital flip was a bug. Surely then he would have known you cannot change allegiance with the only duchy remaining.
I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?
I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?
If I had never seen this happen before, maybe I would think it's not intentional. However, it has happened multiple times before, and each time someone acted surprised, someone from the Dev team came up and confirmed that it was intentional.
I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?
There is, however, one important thing to consider, back from a time when city == duchy - with the capital unable to switch, a ruler could prevent a duke from defecting by making his city the capital. That is probably where the confusion is from. For that reason I can imagine I once said that we should not game-mechanically prevent it.
I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?
Because we've been told the opposite for years.
I really hated to see it happen, but I didn't believe it to be against the rules either. I have always read that the last region of a realm shouldn't be able to switch, and that a capital can't secede (it's already a capital!), but that otherwise any other duchy could secede and that even a capital could switch allegiance.
I'm not accusing Chénier of this, but it is a little annoying how quickly players with characters in D'Hara glommed onto this idea of an opportunistic merger. If, instead of assuming that everyone is willing to move heaven and earth for an advantage in a game, they instead sussed out the details IC, they'd have learned that there's a very real disagreement about whether D'Hara was ever really the problem. You know who did bother to find out? Vellos.
Well, to everyone, as the game evolves so does my vision of it.
As I said, in times past there were various reasons to disallow or allow things that may no longer be as true as they used to be.
Both the capital and the last duchy of a realm wanting to change allegiance are strange border cases with multitudes of issues on both sides. I'm not really sure what the game-mechanics should be, but does it really not strike anyone else as extremely odd an event?
Well, to everyone, as the game evolves so does my vision of it.
As I said, in times past there were various reasons to disallow or allow things that may no longer be as true as they used to be.
Both the capital and the last duchy of a realm wanting to change allegiance are strange border cases with multitudes of issues on both sides. I'm not really sure what the game-mechanics should be, but does it really not strike anyone else as extremely odd an event?
I ask one question further, what is the difference between a realm merger, and one where all but 2 essentially rogue regions are merged with another realm. Those regions will go rogue within a few weeks alone with no capital and no cities.
I ask one question further, what is the difference between a realm merger, and one where all but 2 essentially rogue regions are merged with another realm. Those regions will go rogue within a few weeks alone with no capital and no cities.
I have understood merger to imply that there is an understanding between the leadership of two realms that one will simply give up and be subsumed by the other. We've frowned on this in part because it potentially shortchanges the wishes of other players in the realm that's dying.
The joining of Sun Hall Duchy to LN may not be a bug exploit, however it is the intent that one needs to look at and if the intent is in line with the spirit of the game.
All but two regions ended up moving to another realm. There was really no opportunity for the other nobles of Solaria to choose if they wanted to join LN or not.
Basically it boils down to this.
"If it quacks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck... get your shotgun out 'cause it's duck hunting time"
Poryatown changing allegiance does not seem to me to have been a violation of the rules. Clearly there is a fairly broad understanding that prior to this event, it was not considered a bug for capitals to be able to change allegiance. I cannot think of any reason to punish the player responsible that does not involve ex post facto changes.
As to the second duchy changing allegiance, that is clearly the result of a bug. However, the intent is questionable. From comments that have been made here, it does not sound like the goal from the beginning of this chain of events was to achieve a realm merger; rather, one duke made a power play, and then the other duke responded by also switching allegiance because he felt he had no other choice if he wanted his stronghold to survive. The only real question in my mind is whether he knew that his ability to do so was the result of a bug.
I had no idea it was a bug. It was an option in the game with a clickable link that looked as legitimate as any other link that I click.
I've said it before: if this is in fact a breach of the rules, I am prepared to deal with the repercussions. Solari is not at fault, nor are any of the poor sods who were left behind with Sevastian.
.... you were told it was believed to be impossible, that it was supposed to be impossible. You were told that merging the last duchy was a merger.
.... you were told it was believed to be impossible, that it was supposed to be impossible. You were told that merging the last duchy was a merger.
So, what I'm taking from the point of view of a certain number of people, is that after Sun Hall switched to Luria Nova, I couldn't have changed the allegiance of the final duchy to any realm whatsoever because then someone would scream 'merger'? I should have just remained a single non-capital stronghold with no funds available until the day it went rogue?
There was really no opportunity for the other nobles of Solaria to choose if they wanted to join LN or not.Irrelevant. When the duke switches allegiance, the peons that owe allegiance don't get a choice. That's how the whole hierarchy system is designed to work.
We might even reconsider the realm merging rule altogether, but for the case, the rules as valid when things happened should count.
Intent is always difficult to judge, unless someone has explicitly told about his - guessing about someone else's intent is a bit risky.
I just find it odd that no one complained when Fheuv'n folded into Enweil, following the daimon TO.
I just find it odd that no one complained when Fheuv'n folded into Enweil, following the daimon TO.There were a few inquiries. I think the general consensus was: Well, what do you expect them to do? They're about to lose it all to the daimons anyway, so this desperation move won't do them any good.
There were a few inquiries. I think the general consensus was: Well, what do you expect them to do? They're about to lose it all to the daimons anyway, so this desperation move won't do them any good.
I would have to say you must look at intent. Although the first duchy changing allegiance is not and was not against the rules because there was still another duchy. The intent was that the whole realm was merging and what was left was to be forsaken to the rogues, thereby eliminating Solaria.
This action is not an exploit of a bug. However IMHO, it is an exploit of the game code not being able to take into consideration the intent of the game. It has been said many times that friendly mergers are not allowed.
An example. On AT you have Strombran. It is essentially a one duchy realm with a second duchy in Clyderee which is only one region. Let's say that Strombran's duchy joined CE so that they could fight a war on Easton and would not have to travel as far for banking. The realm of Strombran is still there, but it really isn't.
You clearly didn't get the intent of the first Duchy Changing. Duchies changing allegiance does not amount to a friendly realm merger. There was nothing friendly about Sun Hall leaving Solaria at all.
Not from the Solarian point of view, but obviously the switch of Sun Hall was friendly with Luria Nova.
Not relevant. That is not the scope of "friendly" that is being implied here.
It does not matter if a duchy switch by a duke is friendly in an allegiance change. Only between BOTH rulers.
I am strongly disputing the verdict as stated. Tom himself commented that this did not meet his standard of a friendly realm merger. The Magistrates have no authority to overturn that. The bug exploit issue is a separate one.
Ok. How can this person be reasonably expected to know that this was an exploit if it takes a week of deliberation by the Magistrates to come to this conclusion?
I am strongly disputing the verdict as stated. Tom himself commented that this did not meet his standard of a friendly realm merger. The Magistrates have no authority to overturn that. The bug exploit issue is a separate one.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2504.465.html
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3382.0.html