BattleMaster Community
Toms Other Games => Legends => Topic started by: Tom on January 13, 2018, 10:31:23 AM
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I'd like to have a topic for your feedback and first thoughts. For this, please imagine that the game had its own frontend, either web-based or as a standalone program, so polls would start automatically, you could draw your features on the map directly with a tool, chapters and stories would be automatically sorted, there would be an "inventory" of all creations to check and your prime and purity would be calculated automatically. So basically, don't focus on issues that are caused by the test being run on a forum.
What do you think?
What do you like?
What needs to be improved?
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What do you think?
I've been enjoying the game overall. It is pretty interesting to see a story develop overtime by different people. There are obviously smaller details I do not agree sometimes but those small details do provide interesting challenges. So far stories have been developing the way I did not imagine so it feels pretty refreshing.
What do you like?
The fact I don't have to log in every day like BM XD. A(nd no politics. Was fun for a few years but it does wear you out.)
I actually really like slowly building up the map from the start. I enjoyed most of the stuff so far but will need to see more to really talk about what I like since we still haven't closed any chapters. I want to see a full completed legend first.
What needs to be improved?
Hopefully we will have some details about where each character live (or died) so we can see a region history with the frontend client when we get one so we can keep track of all the stories. Like hovering my mouse cursor over a region (yes eventually I think we need to name each portion of the land with a name) will show what stories are still WIP.
Also, there should be a way for people who are not a part of a council to gain prime so they can continue to write stories. Also, 10 prime feels kinda too small.
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I like it quite a bit. There are a number of things that I don't fully understand yet, but I'm putting that down to the pre-alpha nature of the test.
Purity as a name seems very weird to me, unless there's something you are planning in the metagame later on to account for it the name is very jarring.
One thing that you may or may not have planned that I think would be very helpful/cool would be to have icons/symbols/heraldry/whatever associated with each immortal and each pantheon, that have to start very simple but you can unlock better/more involved design elements as you spend more Prime and Purity. That would give a quick and easy way for everyone to see more powerful/involved immortals and pantheons at a glance.
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I agree with purity. I think its name should probably be changed to be more straight forward. I actually do not really like the name. I get that it is a pure form of prime but something about the name just irks me. But not sure what would be a good replacement.
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But not sure what would be a good replacement.
I see what you did there. :-)
There is a thought behind the name, though maybe someone can offer a better synonym.
Thank you all for your thoughts so far, looking forward to hearing from the others.
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Oh on more thing. Maybe for Prime, in case people run out, maybe 1 prime should be granted for free per week or every 3~4 days would be nice so people don't necessarily have to join a council. Or if we do get a client, maybe random events can give back some purity or prime. Maybe finding shards or something.
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You do regenerate prime. It's in the rules somewhere. I forget how fast. Prime source would regenerate is faster, and allow access to purity.
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You do regenerate prime. It's in the rules somewhere. I forget how fast. Prime source would regenerate is faster, and allow access to purity.
Oh I must have missed that part. Thx for letting me know.
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You do regenerate prime. It's in the rules somewhere. I forget how fast. Prime source would regenerate is faster, and allow access to purity.
It's in the Basic Concepts (https://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,8112.0.html). However, it does not yet specify an amount. I haven't done the game design on that yet, and it's a critical part. I'm not sure if it can be easily done on the forum because I want it to be a formula that ensures you never quite run out, but you also can't collect a lot.
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What about Prime Sources increasing a cap on the amount of Prime you can have? So if I am part of a council with, say, one Prime Source then I can have a total of 15 Prime, but if I don't have any other sources then the most I can have is 5?
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What about Prime Sources increasing a cap on the amount of Prime you can have? So if I am part of a council with, say, one Prime Source then I can have a total of 15 Prime, but if I don't have any other sources then the most I can have is 5?
Instead of over complicating things, there should simply be something like a council prime pool where each member can take out x amount whenever they need. Obviously this should be changeable since every council will be different but at the same time you want to make it flexible enough to make each council unique. I guess there could be two ways of doing this. vertical or horizontal. If you are looking to build a more traditional pantheon, probably building it vertically would be the best option where the head of the pantheon hands out the points.
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"What do you think?"
So far, it's pretty fun. I'm not yet sure how to make a "game" out of it, but the creative writing aspect is pretty cool.
"What do you like?"
I like the free-form ability to write RPs dissociated from the specific constraints of game mechanics. The ability to write, basically, anything. (This is both a blessing and a curse. More on that later.) I like the cooperative aspects of the creation process, mixed with a little bit of adversarial play at this point. Zakky comes up with a chapter, and I have to figure out how to fit the next chapter to it, while perhaps putting in some kind of twist or unexpected revelation that Bedwyr has to deal with. This reminds of some of the best RP experiences I had in BattleMaster, which were with a group of adventurers.
The lack of hard deadlines is good for me right now. I can't keep to a twice a day play schedule with hard noon/midnight turn changes. At least not with any kind of actual involvement beyond following orders.
"What needs to be improved?"
I think that many of my "improvements" would be taken care of by the automated interface. Right now things are a bit confusing.
Perhaps the most confusing thing now is how it all fits together to make a coherent story. This is part interface, and part the confusing timelines of world creation mythos, world detailing, and beginning rudimentary story all proceeding in parallel.
Once things get going, a concrete example of game play would be very helpful. Even if someone sat down and put together a multi-chapter story by assuming the roles of all the writers involved. For example, make up the story of the formation of the first linking of three Prime Sources to generate Purity. Assume it involves 4 fictitious characters, then write 7 or 8 chapters describing it as written by those 4 fictitious players. Link it as a gameplay sample. I know that we're creating those examples as we play, but we're only interpreting what you're telling us the game is about. We could be missing something.
One more possibility for examples: How to use a hero in actual play.
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I actually don't mind the confusing timeline 'for now' but imagine doing this with 20 people. It will just get out of control.
Also, I like the creativity aspect of the game but as Indirik mentioned, it is a both blessing and a curse. I feel you need to refine the definition consecutive chapters more.
Imagine a situation where chapter 3 is not really related to two previous chapters but people agree to pass it. That would just make that legend very incoherent.
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Instead of over complicating things, there should simply be something like a council prime pool where each member can take out x amount whenever they need.
This is how it is intended.
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Perhaps the most confusing thing now is how it all fits together to make a coherent story. This is part interface, and part the confusing timelines of world creation mythos, world detailing, and beginning rudimentary story all proceeding in parallel.
Yes, this is something I am still conceptually working on. I want to have a "soft enforce" of consistency within a story, but I am not yet sure how to do that in the best way possible, thinking through some ideas (e.g. every chapter has to re-use at least one activated story element).
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I actually don't mind the confusing timeline 'for now' but imagine doing this with 20 people. It will just get out of control.
Agree completely. One purpose of this alpha test is to figure those "breaking points" out.
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Agree completely. One purpose of this alpha test is to figure those "breaking points" out.
I think you need more people for that. I don't think we currently have enough people to test the breaking point.
We probably want different sections for each continent and per continent maybe different timelines.
For example:
Overall: Creation
Branch 1: Continent A
Sub-Branch 1: Early Age
Sub-Branch 2: Middle Age
Sub-Branch 3: Late Age
Branch 2: Continent B
Sub-Branch 1: Early Age
Sub-Branch 2: Middle Age
Sub-Branch 3: Late Age
something like that maybe?
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There is a lot that is left to decide and determine, so we will see about that.
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Some more food for your thoughts:
I'm going to write the initial client as a webclient, because I have all the technology and experience required for it. And with recent advances, it can do all that is needed. Most importantly, it can correctly display an entire globe, check here: http://openlayers.org/ol-cesium/examples/rotate.html (might have to zoom out to see it...)
Maybe in the future, if the game is successful, there will be a 3D standalone client, which would give me so many more opportunities for bringing the world alive.
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Would be nice to have a list of councils/pantheons later. For now there is only one so we don't need it.
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I hope we will get a feature that can track down characters and their locations. Otherwise, people will have to read through everything.
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I hope we will get a feature that can track down characters and their locations. Otherwise, people will have to read through everything.
Yes, this is one of the things that a proper client will add to the game.
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Some more food for your thoughts:
I'm going to write the initial client as a webclient, because I have all the technology and experience required for it. And with recent advances, it can do all that is needed. Most importantly, it can correctly display an entire globe, check here: http://openlayers.org/ol-cesium/examples/rotate.html (might have to zoom out to see it...)
Maybe in the future, if the game is successful, there will be a 3D standalone client, which would give me so many more opportunities for bringing the world alive.
If it's in PHP and you want some help or sanity checks, let me know. I get tired of staring at M&F code sometimes (which is why I've been quiet here of late--I've been focused on M&F's next update), and sometimes just getting a second set of eyes on something is handy.
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For the beta, maybe you should limit the number of active stories. Otherwise some stories may never progress. Maybe limit the # of active stories to 5(maybe too few?) to 7?
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I'm thinking about this. My current idea is that it costs prime to start a new story, but expanding upon an existing story, especially if it has been waiting for some time, gives a small reward.
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Thank you all for the feedback so far.
From the slowing down gameplay and the problems that have surfaced, it seems to me that a proper test requires at least basic mechanics in play. At minimum, keeping track of stories and the prime economy should be working before anything can really be accomplished. It also needs to be more clear how to discover prime sources and which goals to pursue. All of these are guiding elements in what is essentially an ultimate sandbox.
I will see if I can somehow come up with a basic client without too much time invested.
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For those that live on Discord, I've got a webhook setup to stalk this forum (and it's children, though if we add more it'll need updating).
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I've actually just had a busy week, and not sure what the result of claiming the prime source was. Once I know that, I have several story ideas.
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I think Tom should maybe think about dealing with purity and prime for beta. For Alpha, maybe he should just let us do whatever we want so we can progress with stories :D
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Yeah, don't worry about the numbers in the alpha.
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I am just waiting for others to continue the stories. I think I've already put out enough first chapters. Put some character focused chapters recently.
I might write another shapers chapter.
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I can't decide wether to join the Seeker council or continue City States. Also, I'm at 5 Prime and 5 purity right now.
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I can decide wether to join the Seeker council or continue City States. Also, I'm at 5 Prime and 5 purity right now.
Don't worry about Prime and Purity for now. Tom said we can ignore it for alpha.
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Thank you all for the feedback and the test-gaming. I collected a lot of ideas and information. I think for the moment we will pause and will do a bit of re-designing and then we start another test or continue.
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Thank you all for the feedback and the test-gaming. I collected a lot of ideas and information. I think for the moment we will pause and will do a bit of re-designing and then we start another test or continue.
Will wait for the next version for sure :D
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I've discovered that they basically !@#$ed my preferred framework (symfony). I'm toying around with Laravel now, but right now I'm not really sure if I'll do any web development in the future.
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I've discovered that they basically !@#$ed my preferred framework (symfony). I'm toying around with Laravel now, but right now I'm not really sure if I'll do any web development in the future.
May I asked how they destroyed it so badly?
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May I asked how they destroyed it so badly?
Essentially everything that made it useful. Changed the entity model, modularized everything to the extreme, removed code generation in a zillion places. I've tried to get started with the new "Flex" thingy, and it just went nowhere, and it didn't even go there fast.
I'm thinking about moving to Laravel, like thousands of other developers, but that is a complete re-learn and I'm not sure I have the time to write code AND learn a new framework.