BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => South Island => Topic started by: Haerthorne on August 06, 2014, 06:24:50 PM
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Because Taselak OOC can't give me more of a headache if anyone tried.
As I said, here is a place to discuss it if it really is so necessary to discuss it OOC.
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http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1773.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1773.0.html)
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You gotta love it whenever this discussion comes up. We had a big discussion on it in Sandalak, with a couple characters basing election campaigns around it on both sides of the issue.
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Nobles were really horrible to peasants, but most people in the game have their characters follow a code of chivalry and tend to look down on others who don't both IC and OOC. I have always RPed my characters as Machiavellians. The discussion in Taselak has gotten out of hand with name calling, all because I sent an OOC message outlining my OOC opinion for the use of KRB and wondering out loud why so many players are so opposed to it that they actually out number those who] would be willing to use it. As far as I know KRB was commonplace in medieval times and is well documented.
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Nobles were really horrible to peasants, but most people in the game have their characters follow a code of chivalry and tend to look down on others who don't both IC and OOC. I have always RPed my characters as Machiavellians. The discussion in Taselak has gotten out of hand with name calling, all because I sent an OOC message outlining my OOC opinion for the use of KRB and wondering out loud why so many players are so opposed to it that they actually out number those who] would be willing to use it. As far as I know KRB was commonplace in medieval times and is well documented.
Ah name calling. Truly a noble position.
To be fair KRB is well documented today too. There are many ways which the knights of BM are not played like the knights of medieval Europe, with a large opposition to KRB being just one of them. The link to the thread in the background section is very interesting reading, but all the sources provided are typically sources by... well, knights to glorify knights from a particularly bloody part of Europe. And they continuously mentions that this rampant destruction is a bad thing. It is well documented too that medieval France produced some incredibly ill-behaved knights who went all over the Mediterranean wreaking havoc, disrespecting everyone, and killing like nightmare warlords.
We have always glorified warlords and mass murderers. There is also some hypocrisy in what people say and what their game numbers do. Doesn't mean that players in BM can't choose to have their characters not do that. Doesn't mean everyone has to subscribe to the grim dark medieval period where every soldier is a trained psychopath. Particularly in total war where people other than those who really enjoy fighting and murdering get involved (total war in reference to the War Islands). It's a choice and people's choices shape the culture in game.
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I've had characters with a whole range of opinions on this. Jenred famously opposed the harsher looting variants, while Malcolm would have calculated how various political factions would react and loot accordingly. Colin was even more opposed than Jenred, Arlian refused to loot at all (or fight other humans, for that matter), and Lyanthan (my current SI character) is concerned with effectiveness. He's probably never going to order KRB because of the raping bit, which he sees as unnecessarily risky and inefficient. It would be better to just kill all who oppose the might of Taselak, if we're not going to convince them to join.
Also, just a note as this has been bothering me, it's not just men in the armies and women that would be raped. The soldiers in the armies are, presumably, mixed men and women who have mixes of tastes.
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I think most of the time which bother people is the word rape.
Another thing is that somehow people tend to think that nobles roam in the house and rapes filthy peasants. It is soldiers who go to village and kill and burn and propably rapes...
Do you think when soldiers are ordered to do random acts of violence during hostile take over that soldiers will not rape?
-jaune
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KRB is what real-life looting looked like. The stigma on it irritates me immensely but it's kind of hard to change when choosing the option gets your realm into trouble with every chivalric character on the island.
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Not doing KRB should have a morale penalty.
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My experience with KBR has left me unimpressed. I rarely bothered with even trying it, because when I did, it didn't seem to cause as much damage as pillage and maraud did.
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Can someone explain me why there is this visceral OOC reaction to all mentions of rape while in-game torture, murder and other types of violence are actually accepted?
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Can someone explain me why there is this visceral OOC reaction to all mentions of rape while in-game torture, murder and other types of violence are actually accepted?
This. Seriously guys.
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loads of white knights
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This. Seriously guys.
Because we live in a society that glorifies violence?
With movies, you can have pretty much all the gore and blood you want, but as soon as you show a boob, then it's for grownups.
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Because torturing peasants and burning villages is for most people low-level medieval fantasy (though not so much these days, sadly), while rape is something that they say has happened or will happen to 1 in 3 of the women in the room you're sitting in right now?
In short, the "immediacy factor".
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Because torturing peasants and burning villages is for most people low-level medieval fantasy (though not so much these days, sadly), while rape is something that they say has happened or will happen to 1 in 3 of the women in the room you're sitting in right now?
In short, the "immediacy factor".
That's my feeling actually about it. Lets be honest, Battlemaster is not played strictly as a medieval simulator. It's played by people from the modern era and that will come through at times. Murder and death are of course bad things, but we have a back drop of seriousness we can put it against. Rape... a lot of people still trivialise it to a great degree. Plus there is a considered to be different levels of murder too (killing combatants in war as opposed to killing in passion or killing civilians), with enough differentiation between them in all eras. I can say that my particular knight does not like killing civilians or collateral damage, but being a warrior is his profession and war is an unhappy business. The argument "is rape worse than death?" comes up a lot in the real world.
Final note: a lot of people insinuate that things were simpler, more absolute. They weren't. People have never been simple.
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rape is something that they say has happened or will happen to 1 in 3 of the women in the room you're sitting in right now
Jesus.. Do you live in Saudi Arabia or something?
Murder and death are of course bad things, but we have a back drop of seriousness we can put it against. Rape... a lot of people still trivialise it to a great degree.
That would be a valid point if it was true.
If anything, murder is much more trivialized on BM.
As it should be because its a game, btw.
Plus there is a considered to be different levels of murder too (killing combatants in war as opposed to killing in passion or killing civilians), with enough differentiation between them in all eras. I can say that my particular knight does not like killing civilians or collateral damage, but being a warrior is his profession and war is an unhappy business.
I'm perfectly fine with characters having opinions about stuff.
What I don't understand is OOC drama.
The argument "is rape worse than death?" comes up a lot in the real world.
Okay, that's not a real argument.
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Jesus.. Do you live in Saudi Arabia or something?That would be a valid point if it was true.
Wow. That's a pretty ignorant statement, for reasons I won't waste my time explaining.
That was a World-wide statistic, and extrapolates life-time expected. If you are American, it's only 1 in 6 attempted or completed, but I don't know how that extrapolates.
According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 191,670 victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2005.[264] According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men have experienced an attempted or completed rape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States
So, sorry - only 1 in 6 of your mothers, sisters, friends, women you see in the park or supermarket, etc have been raped or attacked. Wait, no! Those numbers are probably all wrong anyway - let's say only 1 in 10.
So next time you're at a pro baseball game in the Good Ole USA, and there are 10,000 women in the stands - hardly more than 1,000 of them have been raped or attempted raped. Not even worth mentioning.
Sounds like fun. Let's go roleplay about it!
EDIT: A more recent report, from the US Dept. of Justice, stating 16% " of women who experienced an attempted or completed rape", with 60% unreported.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/
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Wow. That's a pretty ignorant statement, for reasons I won't waste my time explaining.
Thanks for actually wasting your time on that.
Sounds like fun. Let's go roleplay about it!
What if I told you that exactly 0% of women in my family were rape victims, while approximately 1 in 4 family members died in wars?
Does it make me entitled to get miffed about people roleplaying wars and executions?
What's up with double standards?
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It can't be more than the assault rate, so by that logic we should not roleplay violence at all. The overreaction to rape existing in a game is a bemusing product of glorifying both violence and women. Distasteful descriptions of anything including violence and rape can already be dealt with using normal rule mechanisms.
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Thanks for actually wasting your time on that.What if I told you that exactly 0% of women in my family were rape victims, while approximately 1 in 4 family members died in wars?
Does it make me entitled to get miffed about people roleplaying wars and executions?
What's up with double standards?
This is brought up a lot by people who don't get rape. When I said rape is trivialised I did not say "in battlemaster explicitly rape is trivialised". (For the record it is trivialised just take a good look at how rape victims are treated by people, the media, and the criminal justice system). What I am saying is that people have a reason to not want to order their troops to rape in their fictional game, in a topic which sprung from people saying "why are you guys opposed to rape in a game, it happened in medieval times".
You are making this about you. About how if we roleplay characters who don't like rape, who don't approve of their soldiers raping, who would rather they just kill people, avoid unnecessary casualties and be done with it, how that is us telling you not to roleplay it.
Same to you, Kai. Stop being hysterical.
This was turned into a topic because some people couldn't understand why others didn't agree with KRB and took it OOC. It isn't about how distasteful sexual assault is compared to killing and how we don't our sensitive feelings hurt by it.
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This is brought up a lot by people who don't get rape.
Really? Can you be a bit more assumptious and patronizing please, because I don't feel bad enough about myself yet. ::)
This was turned into a topic because some people couldn't understand why others didn't agree with KRB and took it OOC.
As I've already mentioned, I'm absolutely fine with people enforcing or opposing marginal behaviour in character.
If OOC drama was started by KRB enforcing crowd then I guess they are at fault in this particular instance.
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Do what you like nobody cares.
It might be funny to order KRB but I can't muster sufficient !@#$s.
As usual the circle is character proxying for the player who justifies it by saying it's in character for that character.
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I stand by my statement that it's a cultural thing.
Armed robbery, beatings, killings, torture, etc. are all things that happen in real life. Some of which more frequently then rape. And none of them flare up much of an emotional response from players, if any. We are desensitized to violence. It's everywhere in our games. In our books. In our movies. In our news. In our schools. Everywhere. And it's considered normal.
Someone can make a lengthy RP about some sadistic torture session and, as a player, he probably won't even get any negative feedback at all. On the other hand, someone can make a not-so-descriptive RP about consensual sex and be scorned because "children play this game" and so on. If sexuality can't be addressed at all, how do you expect people to react to rape?
Western society is an ironic mix of hyper-sexualization and hyper-prudeness.
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Can't we just accept that rape in real life is a no-no, rape in Battlemaster is okay?
This is a game, the Battlemaster universe is not real life and it's set in the middle ages, which by all means is a long stretch away from modern society.
I mean, I'm a real-life pacifist and strongly oppose any form of war or violence, yet I play a game that is entirely made up of war. I have no issues. Because I know I play a fantasy game. Much like I can play hundreds of first-person shooter and still be vehemently anti-weapons. Because I know it's not real. Much like I respect the sovereignty of nations in the real world, but when I play CKII or EU4, I'll happily subjugate the world. Because I know what is real and what isn't.
If you want to educate people on rape, a forum of a very tiny game might not be the perfect platform. I'm sure there are plenty of actual real-life organizations who would love to have you as a volunteer!
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Someone can make a lengthy RP about some sadistic torture session and, as a player, he probably won't even get any negative feedback at all. On the other hand, someone can make a not-so-descriptive RP about consensual sex and be scorned because "children play this game" and so on. If sexuality can't be addressed at all, how do you expect people to react to rape?
Western society is an ironic mix of hyper-sexualization and hyper-prudeness.
I got several vulgar reports from RP's where i didnt even write very graphically about torture and killings and all those happened somewhere where other characters could not know about those... still got vulgar reports at Dwilight, i gave up and paused my char.
But back to this KRB, i have given up with this issue too. It seems to cause OOC frustrationa and bad wibes to people so i have stopped ot argue about it and use pillage and maraud... every time issue is brought up some people start to scream how nobles should not rape... It is soldiers who have been ordered to kill, rape and burn everything. Back when i was told about how my realm or army has done KRB i have said that it is not true and peasants are lying about the rape part, i was told by reports it was killing spree, not raping spree.
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I got several vulgar reports from RP's where i didnt even write very graphically about torture and killings and all those happened somewhere where other characters could not know about those... still got vulgar reports at Dwilight, i gave up and paused my char.
But back to this KRB, i have given up with this issue too. It seems to cause OOC frustrationa and bad wibes to people so i have stopped ot argue about it and use pillage and maraud... every time issue is brought up some people start to scream how nobles should not rape... It is soldiers who have been ordered to kill, rape and burn everything. Back when i was told about how my realm or army has done KRB i have said that it is not true and peasants are lying about the rape part, i was told by reports it was killing spree, not raping spree.
That would be an incredible misuse of the vulgarity button, if you ask me.
And I've never seen this. I've participated in various RPs of torture and ritual killings of people, including a leper colony, and never saw anyone object to it.
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Well, more KRB and more people rehashing the same arguments to declare how evil KRB is.
Some things will never change eh 8)
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Reality check. Raping and killing innocents was deemed as an evil deed by most standards including those of medieval nobility.
Not that it wasn't practiced still, but suggesting that being accused of it shouldn't be something to besmirch a knight's honour is definitely wrong.
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On some islands, in most circumstances, most of my characters would agree. On the war islands, I couldn't care less.
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Most my characters would think both sides of the argument are spending far too much time thinking about peasants.
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On some islands, in most circumstances, most of my characters would agree. On the war islands, I couldn't care less.
Fair enough.
I don't see why people who do care should be getting any grief either.
Most my characters would think both sides of the argument are spending far too much time thinking about peasants.
It's never about peasants. It's about honourable conduct.
Likewise animal cruelty laws are there not because animals have any rights, but because people who abuse them in certain ways offend public morality.
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It's never about peasants. It's about honourable conduct.
Likewise animal cruelty laws are there not because animals have any rights, but because people who abuse them in certain ways offend public morality.
Honourable conduct often only applies to actions against certain sub groups. It is completely possible to view rape of a noble women as a heinous crime, and rape of a peasant as mere sport. Both sides of the argument are completely valid, depending on the culture and morale norms that the characters are from. If your realm views peasants as a resource, particularly if they don't attach much importance to that resource, then they are likely not going to view rape as a crime. If your realm views peasants as simpletons that are cursed by birth and require noble leadership, but in other regards are not that unlike nobility, then arguments against rape would make sense.
The problem I see on both sides is this assumption that there is only one "honourable" course. Honour is the same as ethics and morality, in the end it is all about perspective and the collective accepted norm.
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Honour is the same as ethics and morality, in the end it is all about perspective and the collective accepted norm.
I'd buy the "morals are all subjective" argument if you could name me one country in feudal Europe where systematic murder of innocent civilians and mass-rape were not seen as evil acts.
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I'd buy the "morals are all subjective" argument if you could name me one country in feudal Europe where systematic murder of innocent civilians and mass-rape were not seen as evil acts.
And I would say to you, this is not a medieval Europe simulator. That said it doesn't take much searching to know that rape and mass killings were pretty common place after a long siege, just as looting was part of the expected pay in many armies. Looking at papers like Rape in Medieval England: A Legal History, 1272-1307 they suggest that even when rape was legislated as a crime, the Male jurors and the courts in general where generally against the victims and punishments were few. This shouldn't be much of a surprise, there is a reason why rape is so under reported in this supposedly "enlightened" age.
If the women of their own countries were supposedly rarely awarded legal protection, what hope to those of a hated enemy have? You need only look to modern conflicts to see how quickly the civilians of a foe can easily be subjected to treatment that would not be deemed acceptable outside of the war environment.
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I think you are missing the point. Rape and massacres have always been there. No one is denying that.
What started this discussion was Sacha's post where he obviously insinuated that those who call warlords wild beasts and villains for committing KRB possess poor understanding of medieval realities. I really don't appreciate that.
Yes, you could often get away with heinous crimes if you were of noble blood. Doesn't mean you will not be branded a dishonorable cur by many of your peers.
If this is not a medieval Europe simulator, there is even less reasons to teach me how to react to in-game actions of other characters.
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I think you are missing the point. Rape and massacres have always been there. No one is denying that.
What started this discussion was Sacha's post where he obviously insinuated that those who call warlords wild beasts and villains for committing KRB possess poor understanding of medieval realities. I really don't appreciate that.
Yes, you could often get away with heinous crimes if you were of noble blood. Doesn't mean you will not be branded a dishonorable cur by many of your peers.
If this is not a medieval Europe simulator, there is even less reasons to teach me how to react to in-game actions of other characters.
If we are talking OOC then it is mostly a pointless argument. It is widely accepted that armies throughout the ages raped and pillaged. It is often less clear if this was ordered by the commanders (in this case nobles and knights) or tactically acknowledged as something they couldn't prevent. It is also a lot harder to say if nobility in general participated, or if that was a rarer occurance. Generally if we are talking about honour, there are plenty of examples of claiming a enemy (either in war or politics/influence) was dishonoured by such acts, just as it was something largely ignored by allies. I can not remember a Western European reference that would acclaim someone for the act though. Really though in game terms of honour I see no reason why both extremes and everything in between cannot exist. Be hypocritical and decry your foe's wanton passions while excusing the excess of your allies. Be a paragon of virtue that bravely champions the cause no matter who perperates the act, whatever. Let the collective opinion of the relevant influential characters dictate the outcome, regardless of if hey truly believe it to be dishonourable or if they merely seize the opportunity to further another agenda.
Now if the problem is of the inclusion of such a option is socially acceptable today, or if it is insensitive or harmful to those is our player base who have direct or indirect experiance with such things in RL, that is something I am compleletly unqualified to weigh in on.
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Has anyone ever complained about KRB affecting them personally?
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Has anyone ever complained about KRB affecting them personally?
Officially? No idea. Unofficially I know of a few from years ago, though the players as far as I am aware no longer play.
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Thanks for not putting words in my mouth, Constantine.
I'm just pointing out that every time there is KRB, we get the same old argument. People write the most graphic and brutal RPs about battles and torture and nobody says anything, but rape is always a no-no. Like, literally, having your character wear the skin of his enemies as a cape is perfectly acceptable, but turn your soldiers loose on a village and suddenly you're the vilest cretin ever to walk the earth. That is my point.
And as for being dishonored, this is the war island. Everyone who is not a realm mate is an enemy for life. Who cares what the enemy thinks? As far as Taselak is concerned, the ones who complain about it are the weird ones.
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Officially? No idea. Unofficially I know of a few from years ago, though the players as far as I am aware no longer play.
Cool just wanted to make sure we weren't all discussing theoretical people.
People seem ok with bestiality, so maybe we can just specify the rape is nonhuman.
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People seem ok with bestiality, so maybe we can just specify the rape is nonhuman.
Not OK with it, so much as we all know that it's the Ikalak national sport.
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Thanks for not putting words in my mouth, Constantine.
Wait what?
The rest of your post actually proves that I did not at all misinterpret your vague snarky attack at your fellow players.
I'm just pointing out that every time there is KRB, we get the same old argument. People write the most graphic and brutal RPs about battles and torture and nobody says anything, but rape is always a no-no. Like, literally, having your character wear the skin of his enemies as a cape is perfectly acceptable, but turn your soldiers loose on a village and suddenly you're the vilest cretin ever to walk the earth. That is my point.
Your point is invalid.
My character has all the rights in the world to tolerate war, bloodshed and battle trophies yet to despise rapists and sadists.
You don't get to call players out on hypocricy for playing their characters a certain way. Keep in-game stuff in game.
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inb4
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Well, Constantine, the irony here is that I'm probably one of the last remaining people who haven't brought the KRB issue up in OOC letters. Sure, characters can chastise Taselak all they want, but if they can't stop us, then why should we even listen? And why can't we chastise weaklings for crying foul but not having the strength or the spine to put a stop to our evil?
That is the point I'm making. Keep the rage IC, and keep it appropriate.
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
There was no OOC discussion of mass KRB performed by Taselak among Ikalakian nobles whatsoever.
The only OOC drama I am aware of is the one you started in this very thread for no apparent reason.
Even if there was a reason in your opinion, you chose not to mention it and just went for a random snarky comment. Unsurprisingly it didn't help to establish a meaningful discussion.
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It was probably in Taselak, then. I don't think anyone mentioned it in Sandalak, aside from a quick remark that it had been done. We did receive a message from Ikalak's general complaining about it.
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It was probably in Taselak, then. I don't think anyone mentioned it in Sandalak, aside from a quick remark that it had been done. We did receive a message from Ikalak's general complaining about it.
*Messages, many many messages
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Reign of terror just doesn't feel the same.