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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Ironsides on January 14, 2013, 07:12:37 PM
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I (Ironsides) am submitting this on behalf of another player who played the former judge of Swordfell during the scandal. Here's what he wanted me to post...
Hi,
I am sending this to complain about another' player's OOC behaviour.
His account details are:
Real Name: Kyle Douglass
User ID: 32986
e-mail: T-dot-sunamcm-at-gmail-dot-com
My account details are:
Real Name: Ulysses
User ID: 33466
e-mail: odisseasnearxos-at-gmail-dot-com
One important rule is that you either contact the Titans, or you don't. Do not threaten other players with them. We have issued temporary account locks for people who said things like "do this or I'll bring you up to the Titans".
The player Kyle Douglass has violated the above rule many times. I was able only to find 3 of the occasions. Two messages send to another player. And one message send in public.
After that one more player picked it up. I think that something must be done to put an end to this. He is ruining the game for everyone else.
The messages are send from the character below, belonging the player of Kyle Douglass.
Sevastian 24 years male Dwilight Swordfell
Message number 1
Letter from Sevastian Guile (11 hours ago)
I shall not just rest my case. It is an inalienable right of every noble to be able to choose their class at will. Press the issue, and I will contact the titans.
I am happy to step down, but not at this expense.
You need to learn manners. You have overstepped your bounds Lord Ironsides, do not push further.
((Ooc: seriously, why are you forcing a matter that breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game? I don't want this to escalate, just go with the plan as it was, the realm doesn't need this mate))
Sevastian Guile
Grandmaster of Swordfell
Duke of The Courts of Stone
Viscount of Balance's Retreat
Message number 2
Letter from Sevastian Guile (10 hours, 19 minutes ago)
One more statement like that, and I will not hesitate to take this matter to the titans, Lord Ironsides.
Your impatience and poor attitude are unbecoming of someone supposed to lead.
Sevastian Guile
Grandmaster of Swordfell
Duke of The Courts of Stone
Viscount of Balance's Retreat
Message number 3
Letter from Sevastian Guile (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (12 recipients)
Lord Irosnsides,
You have pushed too far. I have already explained at length the reasons why I am not immediately stepping down. I suggest you rethink your course of action.
((Ooc: alright, that's it. I've got the damned flu to wake up to this crap? I'm reporting this to the titans. You are a fool mate. I've been beyond kind over this, and I've tried coming up with alternative solutions.
I can share the entire correspondence if anyone cares to read it, but it boils down to this:
Stepping down immediately after creating a realm leads to a huge hit to H/P, that hit would make my character changing classes impossible. We had a plan laid out that took this into consideration and even players from Morek have commented that we should press ahead with it. The player of Bowie has suddenly become impatient and is trying to force me into a situation that breaks the inalienable rights. A thing I flat out refuse to do.))
Sevastian Guile
Grandmaster of Swordfell
Duke of The Courts of Stone
Margrave of Balance's Retreat
Thank you for your attention.
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I sure as hell won't deny it. I really should read the rules page more often.
Well done Ironsides, goading sev was effective as anything else you could've done.
/me facepalms.
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Do not threaten to contact the Titans–
Especially on a continent where the Titans are irrelevant, and its clearly a Magistrates case.
*slaps Woelfy*
--However, I'm curious about this class change issue. That's at least as serious an issue. And the level of OOC vitriol going around Swordfell needs to be toned down. Ya'll appear to both be total dicks to each other and apparently everyone else. Quit it and play nice.
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Yes, that became the central issue in the dispute. He threatened to go to the titans because if he resigned it would cost him too much honour and prestige and he couldnt choose to be a cavalier anymore if he wanted to. He said I was pushing his inalienable right to choose a class. I disagreed, and told him it was a lame excuse not to resign from the ruler position. If he refused to resign because of that then he'd never resign because that cost would still be there regardless if I asked him to resign or not.
I'd rather him bring it to the magistrates so at least I would know what was the wrong thing or not. He didn't so now Erevos is.
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Yes, that became the central issue in the dispute. He threatened to go to the titans because if he resigned it would cost him too much honour and prestige and he couldnt choose to be a cavalier anymore if he wanted to. He said I was pushing his inalienable right to choose a class. I disagreed, and told him it was a lame excuse not to resign from the ruler position. If he refused to resign because of that then he'd never resign because that cost would still be there regardless if I asked him to resign or not.
I'd rather him bring it to the magistrates so at least I would know what was the wrong thing or not. He didn't so now Erevos is.
I filed a report two days ago.
Your logic is also flawed, the penalty declines with time. A cost will be there regardless, but not as bad as immediately upon secession. It's already started dropping, which I notified you of.
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I don't really see how message 1 violates the rule. Message 2 is a confusing mix of IC and OOC, but seems a rather clear violation. Message 3 is a clear violation.
As for the accusation Woelfy made against Ironsides, I won't comment it as it was brought up to the titans, unless it becomes a magistrates issue (which I believe it should, personally).
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Regarding the class change issue, I see no connection between being pressured to step down and being pressured to choose a class you do not want.
I understand that stepping down will cost the character H/P. However, the right is to freely choose a class, not to never lose honor or prestige. By the logic espoused by the player of Sevile, protesting him so much that he loses enough honor and prestige not to qualify for the Cavalier class anymore would also violate the IR; anything that caused him to lose H/P could potentially violate it, since it could lead to him no longer qualifying for a certain class.
In this case no one is telling Sevile that he *must* play this class, or *can't* play that class. That would clearly violate the IR in question. However, it is self-evident that the designer's intent is not that all characters be able to switch to any class at any time. If that were the intent, classes wouldn't have H/P requirements. Therefore, you cannot have a right to play any class you choose at any time, only a right to play any class you qualify for at any time. Qualifying to be able to play a class is not a protected status.
The point is that no one in this situation is telling Sevile he can't play a Cavalier. Instead they're pressuring him to do something that would lead to him no longer qualifying for the class. It is certainly understandable then that Sevile would seek to avoid taking the action that will penalize him, but I cannot see any way in which the other characters are at fault for the situation in which Sevile finds himself. They are playing the game within the expected bounds of character behavior. Rather, it is the player of Sevile who is seeking to use the Titans to reduce the pressure on him by scaring off the players behind those characters with the threat of OOC sanctions, which is clearly not an acceptable behavior.
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Regarding the class change issue, I see no connection between being pressured to step down and being pressured to choose a class you do not want.
I understand that stepping down will cost the character H/P. However, the right is to freely choose a class, not to never lose honor or prestige. By the logic espoused by the player of Sevile, protesting him so much that he loses enough honor and prestige not to qualify for the Cavalier class anymore would also violate the IR; anything that caused him to lose H/P could potentially violate it, since it could lead to him no longer qualifying for a certain class.
In this case no one is telling Sevile that he *must* play this class, or *can't* play that class. That would clearly violate the IR in question. However, it is self-evident that the designer's intent is not that all characters be able to switch to any class at any time. If that were the intent, classes wouldn't have H/P requirements. Therefore, you cannot have a right to play any class you choose at any time, only a right to play any class you qualify for at any time. Qualifying to be able to play a class is not a protected status.
The point is that no one in this situation is telling Sevile he can't play a Cavalier. Instead they're pressuring him to do something that would lead to him no longer qualifying for the class. It is certainly understandable then that Sevile would seek to avoid taking the action that will penalize him, but I cannot see any way in which the other characters are at fault for the situation in which Sevile finds himself. They are playing the game within the expected bounds of character behavior. Rather, it is the player of Sevile who is seeking to use the Titans to reduce the pressure on him by scaring off the players behind those characters with the threat of OOC sanctions, which is clearly not an acceptable behavior.
In stepping down, the penalty my character would have accrued would have made it flatly impossible for him to change class to Cav. That penalty had already been taken into account when the original plan was laid out. Bowie changed his mind regarding that plan immediately after secession and tried forcing the issue with Sevastian. I would have been happy to step down had the penalty not been such a large portion of his existing h/p, because then he could easily have switched to a cavalier to regain his lost stats. In trying to force the issue, it led to this entire clusterf**ked situation.
I by no means was trying to use the Titans to reduce pressure on my character. I was trying to prevent escalation of the situation to what it has blown up into. I like Ironsides as a player, and did not want to have to take the matter to the authorities. It was a poor decision on my part, and I fully admit that it was the wrong way to go about things. It does not change my intention in doing what I did though.
Less than a week has passed, and already the penalty has dropped low enough that Sevastian could step down and still have enough H/P to become a cavalier. If patience and understanding had been displayed, Sevastian would have stepped down this turn, as I made abundantly clear in game. As it stands, I was harassed IG and Ooc over the matter and my IR were ignored, IMO.
If my logic is wrong, then I apologize, but I do not feel it is acceptable for another player to try and force such crippling personal penalties on another due to impatience.
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This is a separate issue. It should not be discussed in this thread. And should probably not be discussed at all by the magistrates if it's before the titans.
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Geronus! Thank you! That's what I argued the ENTIRE time! It's not my problem he is going to suffer, but it is my problem that he refused to resign from my position!
Moreover, it was never in the plan that we were supposed to protect Sevastian's honour and prestige. I forced the issue because how dare you refuse Bowie.
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I by no means was trying to use the Titans to reduce pressure on my character. I was trying to prevent
If my logic is wrong, then I apologize, but I do not feel it is acceptable for another player to try and force such crippling personal penalties on another due to impatience.
As has been said your h/p is not protected whether or not it makes you unable to choose to play a certain class. Also it was the character trying to have you resign soon, which happened to have h/p penalties, not the player doing so.
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This is a separate issue. It should not be discussed in this thread. And should probably not be discussed at all by the magistrates if it's before the titans.
Meh, we're supposed to be more or less a Titan-equivalent, minus the secrecy and lightning bolts.
Point taken though... As far as the OP is concerned, I am (as indicated) inclined to view the repeated references to the Titans as a violation of the rule. Clearly the player in question was feeling pressured to do something he did not want to do, and his response appears to have been to invoke the Titans. I just cannot see anything appropriate about such a response; even if a complaint would be warranted (and I don't believe it was), the rule is very explicit: You make the complaint or you don't, but either way you don't use the possibility of a complaint to try to influence the behavior of other players.
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Point is--- if this were a magistrate case, woelfy would have lost. But it isn't, so he didn't.
Future reference--- IRs are for Magistrates.
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Hey Vellos, are you referring to the original topic of this post or the one about the class issue?
If not than what are your thoughts as to the Titan threats?
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Hey Vellos, are you referring to the original topic of this post or the one about the class issue?
If not than what are your thoughts as to the Titan threats?
Class issue– woelfy's position seems pretty tenuous but it might be a debate worth having.
Threats– woelfy is simply and obviously in the wrong
But it's not relevant– because no Magistrates case was opened. I suppose you could theoretically open a Magistrates case if you want to– but that would seem to me rather in poor taste with us having already had this whole discussion.
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Class issue– woelfy's position seems pretty tenuous but it might be a debate worth having.
Threats– woelfy is simply and obviously in the wrong
Regarding the class issue, I am awaiting a decision.
Regarding the threats, I admit that I was in the wrong and have no excuse for it.
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Trying to claim that being told to step down from a position violates the IR on choosing a class because of the H/P penalty is laughably ridiculous.
The violations of the "Don't threaten to contact the Titans" are also extraordinarily blatant. I'd suggest making a Magistatrate's case about it.
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We magistrates should not comment issues before the titans in order to avoid coming to different conclusions. We are two organs of justice for BM, without possibility for appeal, and to offer contradicting verdicts would undermine the credibility of the system in place. As such, to eliminate the risk, refraining from commenting issues brought to the other body is the best protocol to avoid potential contradictions between each other. I don't know how it is in your parts of the world, but in mind, judges don't go in public to comment or criticize each others work.
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Assuming you're referring to me, I'm not a Magistrate.
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Assuming you're referring to me, I'm not a Magistrate.
I'm not.
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First of all this isn't a Magistrate issue, not at least in my books.
Secondly since i happen to be in the realm the player of Bowie has his part of dirty job as well and i am sure that if it's off to the Titans they will see every detail of it.
Also at this point that such measurements were taken i would suggest to said player to not use OOC messages in order to "report" to players what accusations or topics are taking place against the player he doesn't like.
As it 's not right to threaten someone with the Titans it is also not right to use OOC for IC issues.Really....grow up is my opinion..both of you! :P
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First of all this isn't a Magistrate issue, not at least in my books.
Secondly since i happen to be in the realm the player of Bowie has his part of dirty job as well and i am sure that if it's off to the Titans they will see every detail of it.
Also at this point that such measurements were taken i would suggest to said player to not use OOC messages in order to "report" to players what accusations or topics are taking place against the player he doesn't like.
As it 's not right to threaten someone with the Titans it is also not right to use OOC for IC issues.Really....grow up is my opinion..both of you! :P
+1
If I see another OOC: "yuk yuk yuk" which is just a nice condescending way to OOCly goad other players, I may just leap through the internet and stab the player behind it. I've seen three different vulgarity reports with that in it.
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+1
If I see another OOC: "yuk yuk yuk" which is just a nice condescending way to OOCly goad other players, I may just leap through the internet and stab the player behind it. I've seen three different vulgarity reports with that in it.
/me points out that he has not filed any vulgarity reports, and is just as perturbed by the 'yuk yuks'
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...Secondly since i happen to be in the realm the player of Bowie has his part of dirty job as ...
But you've only been in the realm for a day, two tops. Your motives and allegiances are obvious, kiddo! We've learned that you're one of Sevastian's lackeys.
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But you've only been in the realm for a day, two tops. Your motives and allegiances are obvious, kiddo! We've learned that you're one of Sevastian's lackeys.
That's a horrible blend of Ooc and IC, Ironsides. Players are entitled to their opinions.
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Granted, but I don't believe he has a well informed opinion from a non-biased source.
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Granted, but I don't believe he has a well informed opinion from a non-biased source.
I could say the same thing about people getting information from you. It's part of the game man.
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Not true, I make my moves in full public and they make their decisions for or against based on that.
But the character Molivia hasn't even introduced herself to the realm. The only voice she brings is strictly a second bolster to your own. Interesting that is, since having mentioned that the character has only been in the realm for a day or so.
This isn't the place for this discussion though...
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First it's Malvolia and it happens that it's also my character (for the record even if it's not the appropriate room for this discussion she knows Sevastian way back and Sevastian was the reason she joined in the first place, that's in game friendsip that is).
Anyway.....reporting the following OOC and i quote : Out-of-Character from Bowie Ironsides (21 hours, 12 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (13 recipients)
You guys should also know that the player of Erevos issued a complaint against the player of Sevastian. I put it on the forum for him here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3693.0.html
Carl Rotledge
is totally uncalled for, it is inappropriate , it is irrelevant and generally you don't post informations you know ooc in the game just to trash a player or his character. I mean how hard is it for you people to understand this? Am i unreasonable here? This whole thing between you is getting out of hand and disturbs me a lot. It is a game, fight in game, find ways to fight with proper in game actions and not by abusing game mechanics or using ooc gossips or info for that matter....if you can win in game then good for you , if you cannot then lose decently. ...
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But you've only been in the realm for a day, two tops. Your motives and allegiances are obvious, kiddo! We've learned that you're one of Sevastian's lackeys.
How old are you? Twelve?
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Granted, but I don't believe he has a well informed opinion from a non-biased source.
Dude i m a SHE and not a kiddo ...also i do not need information ....i am judging you by your horrible playing and ooc abuse in it. Seriously.
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A. Not true, I make my moves in full public and they make their decisions for or against based on that.
B. But the character Molivia hasn't even introduced herself to the realm. The only voice she brings is strictly a second bolster to your own. Interesting that is, since having mentioned that the character has only been in the realm for a day or so.
A. Your moves still come with a natural and self-promoting bias.
B. That is IC. Not Misericordia..
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I think the questions raised by this thread have been settled and it looks to be devolving into an extension of the IC dispute. I am therefore cleaning it up and locking it.
Edit: Or not... Guess I don't have mod privileges for this sub-forum. Either way, please keep this thread on topic.
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I think the questions raised by this thread have been settled and it looks to be devolving into an extension of the IC dispute. I am therefore cleaning it up and locking it.
Edit: Or not... Guess I don't have mod privileges for this sub-forum. Either way, please keep this thread on topic.
I agree with you and personally i will act as if it's locked.
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The player who originally wanted this complaint issued would probably appreciate us not mixing our minds with his issue.
So I too will not post in here anymore and spoil it.
And Misericordia, I didn't know you were female. Sorry about that :-[
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Questions answered, thread locked.