Messages

31

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding

« on: December 10, 2011, 11:31:23 PM »

...
The Zuma made the request, apparently because they believe the word of the judges scribe over the word of the judge.

Isn't that what the GM is saying, essentially?

I would object to that, IC, if I were Vellos.

And I'm very curious why the Zuma place more trust in non-noble humans, than on noble humans. Why the distinction?

You make the assumption that the Zuma consider hierarchy in the same way as humans and think in the same way as humans. The Zuma have seen from their own experience that torture is a proven way to get the truth from humans. That is why they demand it.
Some of the points of view given in various places in the forums are very good at discouraging any one from wanting to do any GM work and at making current GMs wonder why they even bother to invest their time trying to do anything to give more to the game for the benefit of the players. Adding some flavor.
Everything the Zuma have done has been because of player interaction. Everything. Some of the interactions no one knows about apart from the individual concerned, some of it is known in many places.
Please just stop analysing the Zuma based on human ideologies.

32

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding

« on: December 10, 2011, 10:14:32 AM »

Have patience, remember BattleMaster is played by people all around the world in a variety of timezones so work/sleep/school/etc will mean that people can't respond to things immedietly. This is also true for GM people.
To respond to the initial complaint, which appears to have a fair amount if incorrect information in it. It is unfortunate it comes to this as it also means more information on the way the Zuma think is going to be explained rather than worked out because some people decide there must be OOC reasoning for things that happen that they don't like.

Full Complaint Text:
Summary: 
GM player requested torture of a character, and a forwarded report, for the express purpose of having a 100% reliable copy of the message for viewing, thereby skirting the long-standing lack of a message-forwarding option, a lack which is intentional precisely because 100% certainty ought not be available in such cases.
 
Details:
An adventurer sent a forged message to Haktoo. The real message was viewable by 42 nobles, including the Zuma Ambassador, Garret Artemesia. He testified to the Zuma concerning the true message. The Zuma withdrew from attacking Terran shortly thereafter, and requested that Terran send someone to talk to Haktoo personally.

The portion of the message which seems concerning is the reference to the "proof letter" and the "torture report."
 
It is demanded SO THAT the forgery can be INCONTROVERTIBLY proved. That relationship is clear from the letter. I privately sent an OOC complaint to the GM. The reply I received was:
 
My complaint, and the reason for filing this complaint under 2.4, is that message forwarding has been repeatedly denied as a feature, because the general consensus has been that we should not be able to perfectly validate messages. Torture reports, normally, are not "arranged" issues: we don't organize tortures to prove message validity. We accept them as valid because we, as players, know they are, and because the coding to make them ambiguous seems like it would be quite difficult and complex.
 
But to demand a torture report for the explicit purpose of getting 100% proof (and it is ONLY 100% proof because of OOC understandings by players) is clearly an attempt to "get around" the game mechanics that prevent message forwarding. Such metagaming is, somewhat to my surprise, not prohibited in the social contract, but seems in violation of fair play, and like an obvious exploitation of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended to be used.

Parts of original message removed as not required for the response.

First thing that needs to be made clear is that OOC I already know the letter was not real. However as the characters do not know this they are demanding more proof. The same characters that have used torture themselves in the past and know very well, to them at least, that torture successfully makes humans tell the truth. This is keeping the way the characters are played IG true to their characters and the knowledge they actually have and based on the way they understand humans. Also, due to the fact that there have been a number of human lies, the Daimons do not trust Garret on his word. Again, there seems to be presumption that because he is an ambassador he is seen by the Daimons the same way humans see their ambassadors so anything he tells me I should just accept. That would not then be keeping the characters in character. He serves a purpose.

So stating that I only asked for this to get 100% proof of the letter for OOC reasons is incorrect

It should also be noted that it was not requested that Terran send someone to talk personally. You were informed that the only way you could talk personally, which you asked, was if you came to us.

Understanding that OOC I am already fully aware of the truth and am making this request from a purely IC perspective, please continue any discussion with that in mind as the 'obvious exploitation' is apparently not that obvious.

Thanks.

33

Dwilight / Re: The Zuma

« on: June 10, 2011, 07:11:55 PM »

The Zuma were 'sprung' on nobody. the Zuma have been on Dwilight from the first few weeks of the Island's existence. The only involvement they have had with players has been initiated by players. Before choosing to sympathise with the neighbours of the Zuma, perhaps you should talk to them all and actually find out whether they need any sympathy or not.
Again, Out of Character negative speculation and misinformation serves no useful purpose to anyone.

34

Dwilight / Re: The Zuma

« on: June 10, 2011, 07:39:53 AM »

Honestly I have had zero interactions with the Zuma. I have no preconceptions about them specifically, IC or otherwise. I *do* have preconceptions about what the purpose of an NPC realm should be in a game like this. And in my opinion, they are not serving a constructive purpose if they are not enriching the game for the people that do interact with them. It is easy for a player whose character resides far from the Zuma to enjoy the lore and mystery that they represent. It is far more difficult to appreciate that mystery when you live next door and the Zuma show up to torch your city without even an RP to add a little richness to the experience of having your realm torn down.

I have issues with people that spread misinformation about things as well. There were accompanying RP. Before during and after the event, including the march to the city when there may have only been one or two player characters to read the RPs. There was also discussion directly with some people within the realm at that time, which is the reason the Daimons left.
As I said. Everything has been done due to interaction with the players and anyone that implies anything different is not speaking true.

35

Dwilight / Re: The Zuma

« on: June 10, 2011, 07:02:23 AM »

Some who try to interact with the Zuma are responded to. Some aren't. This is not some whim, there is reason behind it which is quite clear and obvious if people bother to try and work it out.
I am not going to change the character of the Zuma because some people are frustrated they seem to get nothing from them or do not understand the point of them. Nor am I going to explain in Out of Character forums the reasons behind actions that some players are fully aware of.
If you want answers and interaction from the Zuma, learn how to deal with them and find out in game. Remember, you came to the Zuma first, they did not go to visit the humans. Also remember that it is not just some human realm run in the same way as human realms.

36

Dwilight / Re: The Zuma

« on: June 09, 2011, 09:27:52 PM »

As Artemesia posted for me while ago.

Out-of-Character from Haktoo
I've just read the Zuma thread on the forums. There is a bit of misinformation there. I will say this to you here so that you can pass this on to the forum. If anyone else wants me to repeat it to them, get them to message me and I will copy it to them as well so they can see it comes direct from me.
Shortly after Dwilight went active, I became GM for the Daimons. It was a number of months later when the second GM joined, and they are now inactive and have been for some time.
The Daimons were on Dwilight from the beginning. I cannot remember how long it was before the first player character ever encountered them though.
Everything I have done with the Daimons has had a reason. Just because individual players do not know what it is it does not mean anything has happened as part of a random whim. People should remember that political intrigue can have huge influence within this game. Even things that seem obvious may not be happening for the reason you think they are.
I have been here since the start of Dwilight and am doing what I expect to be doing with the Daimons. Everything is done for a reason, including any inconsistencies you may think you see when dealing with us.
Thank you.

A lot of talk since then seems to ignore this but it says all that needs saying. Everything the Zuma have done has been due to interaction with players. Just because individuals do not know all the details does not give you the right to spread misinformation to the other players. No I will not be explaining any of the actions in an Out of Character forum.
If you are going to make statements about the Zuma or the GM behind them, make sure you have facts to back you up.
As I said before everything is done for a reason and has been done due to interaction with players.
Thank you.