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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Vellos on August 19, 2011, 03:05:00 PM
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Second, while Matt is well aware of the organization and intrigued by it, Koli's never heard of it, or at least not in a context where he knew what the word meant. Koli, I hope, is going to be known to history as the Great Compromiser, in both the good and bad senses, but there's little he can do when he's never even heard of this weird alliance thingy that D'hara's in. If you want to, say, as the Ambassador of Terran make your position clear and let Koli know about how things work over there, then we can talk. Until then there's not much I can do without breaking character knowledge.
This surprises me. The Véinsørmoot is on the wiki, as is the Treaty of the Maroccidens. Its all public information, and I know for a fact that I went parading around Pian en Luries a year or so ago telling everyone about all the shiny guilds in Chesney, and devoted at least a few paragraphs to the Véinsørmoot. If Koli's spies are truly so thick as to not even listen to the news-criers in Paisly, or pay attention to the fact that D'Hara is obviously in a strong alliance with Barca and Terran, or hasn't paid any attention to the unity of Barca, Terran, or D'Hara on foreign policy (like the Madinan Civil War, for example) in the past then, truly, Lurian spies are not very good. For so intrigue-ridden a place, I would have expected better.
Nothing about the Véinsørmoot is secret, and the treaties are all publicly viewable on the wiki. As a fairly big document governing a fairly large part of Dwilight, I'd expect some of Koli's advisors and policy wonks to have noticed it.
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This surprises me. The Véinsørmoot is on the wiki...
IG/IC, I think my character, the ruler of Astrum, may have heard of it once or twice. But I really don't think he has any idea what it is, or what it stands for, or any idea of its political importance in the south. He's never been contacted by the Veinsormoot, or had any dealings with anyone on behalf of the Veinsormoot.
OOC I know what the Veinsormoot is, and it's public purpose. But IG, I don't think it's really had the penetration that you think it has.
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IG/IC, I think my character, the ruler of Astrum, may have heard of it once or twice. But I really don't think he has any idea what it is, or what it stands for, or any idea of its political importance in the south. He's never been contacted by the Veinsormoot, or had any dealings with anyone on behalf of the Veinsormoot.
OOC I know what the Veinsormoot is, and it's public purpose. But IG, I don't think it's really had the penetration that you think it has.
Indeed. Alanna has heard of it, and knows generally that it's a guild somewhere in the west. She probably even knows that it was Hireshmont who mentioned it. But she has, first of all, no reason to think that it would be the body to contact to negotiate anything with the west—and second of all, no way of contacting it if she did! It's a guild, after all, and to contact a guild you have to travel to it. What ruler is going to trek weeks across the continent just to join a guild they've barely heard of?
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Indeed. Alanna has heard of it, and knows generally that it's a guild somewhere in the west. She probably even knows that it was Hireshmont who mentioned it. But she has, first of all, no reason to think that it would be the body to contact to negotiate anything with the west...
Brance has been in contact with the rulers of both D'Hara and Terran. Neither have mentioned the Veinsormoot in their talks on politics.
I think that if the Veinsormoot wants to make a political splash, they should engage in some self-promotion at the ruler level. But still, the Veinsormoot is still a guild. As Anaris points out, that makes it very difficult to contact or negotiate with. SA has the same problems. But then again, the religious leadership of SA doesn't generally get involved with politics. They make requests of the secular leaders, who then take care of it. As I've mentioned before (in this thread, I think?) you don't make treaties with SA. You make treaties with the secular leaders of the member theocracies.
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Really, Hireshmont should have just contacted the Lurians on behalf of the Veinsermoot. That would have pulled it off :)
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Really, Hireshmont should have just contacted the Lurians on behalf of the Veinsermoot. That would have pulled it off :)
I think that's more or less what I've been trying to get across ;D
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Really, Hireshmont should have just contacted the Lurians on behalf of the Veinsermoot. That would have pulled it off :)
God damnit.
If you want something done right, you've just got to do it yourself....
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I think the Veinsermoot should have its own thread.
And by the way, even though I'm in Asylon, I've never heard of it...
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And by the way, even though I'm in Asylon, I've never heard of it...
Gah!
I've been to Asylon to publicize it twice!
This is very frustrating... well, after I step down as Senator of Chesney, I know what my next goal will be: publicize the Véinsørmoot.
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The Veinsormoot is also not that easy to find on the wiki, considering that I - and I think most people - don't have that Scandinavian "o" on their keyboard and when you search in normal letters (not saying Scandinavians aren't normal ;) ) it doesn't find anything.
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I've been to Asylon to publicize it twice!
This is very frustrating... well, after I step down as Senator of Chesney, I know what my next goal will be: publicize the Véinsørmoot.
Maybe you're publicizing it to the wrong people? It sounds like what you want to do is get foreigners to negotiate with the guild as a political organization. If so, then you need your member states to push it to foreign leadership. It doesn't really matter if random nobles in some member nation know about the Veinsormoot. You need the leadership of non-member realms to know about it. And that means that your member realms need to defer to the the guild's leadership for negotiating. But that seems... odd. Why would a foreign king want to deal with some random noble from, of all things, a guild when dealing with diplomacy? That seems so pedestrian.
Or perhaps I just don't understand the whole point of the Veinsormoot.
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Its not that the Veinsormoot wants foreign leaders to deal with it, it's that it is in the best interest of those foreign leaders to deal with the Veinsormoot.
The Veinsormoot is essentially the physical embodiment of the close relations between Barca, Terran and D'hara. And so, even when you are only talking to the D'haran leadership or Barcan leadership what is being said is most likely being relayed to the Veinsormoot where it is discussed communally either by the whole guild (which features prominent desicion makers of all three realms as well as nobles who are curious or want to get involved) or just the elders (the elite leadership of the three realms).
From there the Veinsormoot either reaches a decision on what the next course of action should be, OR, the item is further discussed by each respective senate before being brought back to the Veinsormoot. What foreign realms should understand about the Maroccidens is that formally and informally we are all very close and there's few big decisions, especially foreign policy related ones, that don't pass through the Veinsormoot.
Although, I'm not on the Elders so this is mostly my assumption of what goes on. Who is on the elders by the way?
And yes, I guess the Veinsormoot needs more publicity but I also feel that even when a leader is being told about the guild's function they don't necessarily understand the gravity of it's importance. Even calling it a guild is a little misinformative, it's more like a BM equivalent to NATO.
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it's more like a BM equivalent to NATO.
or EU...
And the elders of the 'moot ARE the council members of the respective member states--it's not like Duke Hireshmont of Terran is different than Elder Hireshmont of the 'moot.
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or EU...
And the elders of the 'moot ARE the council members of the respective member states--it's not like Duke Hireshmont of Terran is different than Elder Hireshmont of the 'moot.
Indeed. The member states are generally not really interested in the politics of the foreign realms, except when they come to bother us or affect us. It's a nice tool to communicate with each other and plan collectively.
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or EU...
And the elders of the 'moot ARE the council members of the respective member states--it's not like Duke Hireshmont of Terran is different than Elder Hireshmont of the 'moot.
Yeah, EU fits much better. I was thinking NATO was a little off but I couldnt come up with something better.
Its actually much like the EU. It has economic, cultural and military provisions and it's only real authority comes from the fact that the member states realize the benefit that comes from being a part of it.
Also, like the EU, while it is not necessary for foreign bodies to contact it, it certainly makes things easier for everyone involved.
While we're on the subject, who are the elders of the 'moot? The Dukes and leaders?
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Also, like the EU, while it is not necessary for foreign bodies to contact it, it certainly makes things easier for everyone involved.
Everyone except those foreign powers, that is. Because they have no way of knowing who's in it, who's in charge of anything, and generally no easy way to do so, except to go there, unless they happen to have a prior contact.
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This surprises me. The Véinsørmoot is on the wiki, as is the Treaty of the Maroccidens. Its all public information, and I know for a fact that I went parading around Pian en Luries a year or so ago telling everyone about all the shiny guilds in Chesney, and devoted at least a few paragraphs to the Véinsørmoot. If Koli's spies are truly so thick as to not even listen to the news-criers in Paisly, or pay attention to the fact that D'Hara is obviously in a strong alliance with Barca and Terran, or hasn't paid any attention to the unity of Barca, Terran, or D'Hara on foreign policy (like the Madinan Civil War, for example) in the past then, truly, Lurian spies are not very good. For so intrigue-ridden a place, I would have expected better.
Nothing about the Véinsørmoot is secret, and the treaties are all publicly viewable on the wiki. As a fairly big document governing a fairly large part of Dwilight, I'd expect some of Koli's advisors and policy wonks to have noticed it.
You would be wrong on all fronts. Koli doesn't have any foreign spies. Lurian intrigues are so inwardly focused that Fissoa is barely on the radar for them. Not a single one of Koli's close advisers has any more time in realm than he has, and he's been singlemindedly focused on trying (somewhat unsuccessfully, sigh) to stop the unending Lurian civil wars that he paid no attention to foreign happenings until PN revolted. He's certainly not aware of anything the 'moot or anyone in it did regarding the Madinan civil war.
Luria is insular. Koli wants to change that, but there's too many domestic troubles to deal with first. Now that Hireshmont's contacted him, of course, he's got scribes scouring all the records they have and he's learning more, but expecting anyone in a different region to know what's going on is...Inaccurate.
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Luria is insular. Koli wants to change that, but there's too many domestic troubles to deal with first. Now that Hireshmont's contacted him, of course, he's got scribes scouring all the records they have and he's learning more, but expecting anyone in a different region to know what's going on is...Inaccurate.
This is so sad and so true. We don't know anything about Fissoa, 90% of the realm has no real opinion of anything in the East... it's very parochial, else why would we have a tradition of depositions? There is a lot of self loathing in PeL.
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This is so sad and so true. We don't know anything about Fissoa, 90% of the realm has no real opinion of anything in the East... it's very parochial, else why would we have a tradition of depositions? There is a lot of self loathing in PeL.
Insular realms usually don't go making wild threats to their far-off neighbours about forcing a religion upon them and having them abandon their claims to half their land.
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Insular realms usually don't go making wild threats to their far-off neighbours about forcing a religion upon them and having them abandon their claims to half their land.
Wasn't the deposed King who did that? Look what he got for it...
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Wasn't the deposed King who did that? Look what he got for it...
I doubt *that* caused what followed.
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I doubt *that* caused what followed.
Indeed. It will most likely happen more and more often as we purge our own Empire heretics, such as JPierreD, and start our Continental Crusades :D
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I have mentioned the need for the nobles of Asylon to travel to Chesney to join guilds there, but none have had any time. I am the only noble that has physically left Asylon since its founding, and that was a trip to Farrowfield to waste my time in silence and then again to Terran to join guilds which was enjoyable.
I have always taken Asylons place in the moot as one of observer, thats why I have never really pushed it in Asylon or established a guildhall there because the moot was supposed to be about Marrociddens, and Asylon is Messocidden so we weren't allowed a voice in the moot. I enjoy and would highly advise others to join the moot, and perhaps when I have time shall establish a moot in Asylon.
Ps: I am still waiting for a certain Senator of Terran to establish the Cult of Bloodmoon guildhall!!!
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Indeed. It will most likely happen more and more often as we purge our own Empire heretics, such as JPierreD, and start our Continental Crusades :D
Pff, you atheist bunch don't scare me. :P
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Insular realms usually don't go making wild threats to their far-off neighbours about forcing a religion upon them and having them abandon their claims to half their land.
Yes, because immediate neighbors are "far off", three regions which D'hara hadn't held in years (as the letter was sent before Qubel got reclaimed) is really the same as "half their land", and "forcing" a religion on a realm that supposedly has an open religious policy as part of what was obviously intended to be a high opening to a bargaining session as the second letter on the subject made perfectly clear is precisely like what you said.
Or, you know, not.
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Yes, because immediate neighbors are "far off", three regions which D'hara hadn't held in years (as the letter was sent before Qubel got reclaimed) is really the same as "half their land", and "forcing" a religion on a realm that supposedly has an open religious policy as part of what was obviously intended to be a high opening to a bargaining session as the second letter on the subject made perfectly clear is precisely like what you said.
Or, you know, not.
Years? No, not years. And Pian en Luries' former ruler had agreed to our claim to Desert of Silouhettes.
And you don't negotiate with something that is obviously not yours and which you can't even keep anyways. It's trying to make a hostage of Port Nebel. But it's been revolting for a few days, and will clearly revolt from Luria Nova any minute now. Did you seriously expext D'Hara would make any kinds of concessions whatsoever?
Now that they revolted to Luria Nova, they now hate it, and will never revolt to it again.
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Years? No, not years. And Pian en Luries' former ruler had agreed to our claim to Desert of Silouhettes.
And you don't negotiate with something that is obviously not yours and which you can't even keep anyways. It's trying to make a hostage of Port Nebel. But it's been revolting for a few days, and will clearly revolt from Luria Nova any minute now. Did you seriously expext D'Hara would make any kinds of concessions whatsoever?
Now that they revolted to Luria Nova, they now hate it, and will never revolt to it again.
And when was the last time D'hara held the Lighthouse, much less Sallowtown, then? I'm curious.
As to whether I actually thought we would get any concessions...I rather doubted it. That wasn't the point of the exercise, at least for Koli. I can't speak as to what Amaury expected.
Sure, they'll hate Luria Nova. What's your point?
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Pfft.. I just hope Koli is ready to be all diplomatic to Dhara in a few weeks time :D
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Psssshhh...
Who would expect the Lurians to know anything about the Véinsørmoot or other complex political matters in the Maroccidens or elsewhere? They're little more than a bunch of barbarians who can't hardly agree for more than 20 minutes on what to have for dinner before they begin stabbing one another. They're like a big tribe of inbred, infighting clansmen.
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Psssshhh...
Who would expect the Lurians to know anything about the Véinsørmoot or other complex political matters in the Maroccidens or elsewhere? They're little more than a bunch of barbarians who can't hardly agree for more than 20 minutes on what to have for dinner before they begin stabbing one another. They're like a big tribe of inbred, infighting clansmen.
And just for that I shall be planning the Third Crusade to wipe out all of D'hara -.-
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And just for that I shall be planning the Third Crusade to wipe out all of D'hara -.-
That's if you can remain ruler for any amount of time.
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And just for that I shall be planning the Third Crusade to wipe out all of D'hara -.-
lol Perth is from Terran.....
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And just for that I shall be planning the Third Crusade to wipe out all of D'hara -.-
well, good luck with that!
I am sure you will come past Port Nebel someday, after endlessly smashing your armies to pulp against Terran and D'haras combined forces...
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Come now, Terran would have to refit eventually! And it's a fair trek longer to Port Nebel than it was to Paisly.
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Come now, Terran would have to refit eventually! And it's a fair trek longer to Port Nebel than it was to Paisly.
Paisly... yes... horible Paisly, still giving me nightmares....
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Come now, Terran would have to refit eventually! And it's a fair trek longer to Port Nebel than it was to Paisly.
Chesney-Port Nebel is about as long as Giask-Port Nebel, isn't it?
We could keep 3,000 CS or so stationed on Port Nebel's walls indefinitely with careful refit timing. With some cleverness, we could have an even larger force on standby for deployment. 5,000 CS behind walls after a several day sea journey is nothing to joke about. Especially if we lurk in well-fed regions nearby while starving the city as you approach it, then pour in with food and troops a few hours before you arrive.
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Would that drive off a 10 to 15k CS army?
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Would that drive off a 10 to 15k CS army?
If D'hara can cough up another 5 k, yes.
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Don't forget that the Madinans did not have Delay Arrival. 5K CS would not be enough to stop PeL/LN if they decided to attack.
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D'Hara has more Allies then just Terran though.
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And more enemies, too. Not that it's going to be a real issue, in theory, but there are plenty of people on other sea routes that wouldn't mind attacking D'hara.
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If D'hara can cough up another 5 k, yes.
D'Hara's total military is 5.5k right now...
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D'Hara's total military is 5.5k right now...
It's deliberately low. They should be able to field another 10K easily given their gold income. Even if they do have to buy all their food.
They should have STORES of gold somewhere. . .
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That's if you can remain ruler for any amount of time.
I never was ruler :D Just the current de factor Military Commander with a terrible zealot streak :(
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We just have to defend against some Monster attacks now, and aid Barca. We don't need a military beyond that at the moment :)
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Well thanks to the Lurians' attempt at strong arming, D'Hara is suddenly getting more friendly with SA again. I'm sure we could be persuaded to help them out... For preaching rights. ;)
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Big news for the Véinsørmoot and for all of the Maroccidens:
Hireshmont is no longer Senator of Chesney. After getting everything done he needed to get done, he has finally stepped down. And pledged not to interfere in the election for his successor either.
Now time to make a few diplomatic circuits around the continent... and then we'll see if there's anything left in the character to be played with and, if not, I've already set up the backstory for my next Dwilight character.
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Wow! Didn't even hear that one yet! Bye bye Veinsermoot ;)
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Big news for the Véinsørmoot and for all of the Maroccidens:
Hireshmont is no longer Senator of Chesney. After getting everything done he needed to get done, he has finally stepped down. And pledged not to interfere in the election for his successor either.
Now time to make a few diplomatic circuits around the continent... and then we'll see if there's anything left in the character to be played with and, if not, I've already set up the backstory for my next Dwilight character.
The guild is your child. If you leave it, it will die imo.
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He's leaving the dukeship, not the veinsormoot
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Indeed; not leaving the Véinsørmoot. I still hold the title of Mootgram. I'll stick around as long as I need to in order to keep the Véinsørmoot rolling.
And... I suspect the Véinsørmoot can survive without me.
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The guild is your child. If you leave it, it will die imo.
Is that a promise?
/me plots the death of Hireshmont.
/me has an incredibly strong sense of deja vu. It seems to me that I've done that once before...
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Indeed; not leaving the Véinsørmoot. I still hold the title of Mootgram. I'll stick around as long as I need to in order to keep the Véinsørmoot rolling.
And... I suspect the Véinsørmoot can survive without me.
Are you talking about the alliance or the guild? Many care for the alliance, but it has been apparent that not many care for managing the guild.
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Are you talking about the alliance or the guild? Many care for the alliance, but it has been apparent that not many care for managing the guild.
By that logic it's apparent that D'hara does not care for managing her cities.
Just because a guild house or two has gone into disrepair doesn't mean that people don't care about the guild. Also, as far as I know, the alliance and guild go hand in hand.
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Are you talking about the alliance or the guild? Many care for the alliance, but it has been apparent that not many care for managing the guild.
We have more guildhouses than we've ever had, a more orderly structure, and more members.
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By that logic it's apparent that D'hara does not care for managing her cities.
Just because a guild house or two has gone into disrepair doesn't mean that people don't care about the guild. Also, as far as I know, the alliance and guild go hand in hand.
There is no personal returns in managing a guild, but personal expenses. And the losses due to inattention (like the many cases that have been seen) can become quite frustrating. The guild leader has no special powers, just extra responsibilities that consume time and gold. There's a reason why only few people ever answer when calls for more guildhouses are made, and they usually do so reluctantly.
Guilds and religions are huge time and money pits, and few really want to manage them.
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There is no personal returns in managing a guild, but personal expenses. And the losses due to inattention (like the many cases that have been seen) can become quite frustrating. The guild leader has no special powers, just extra responsibilities that consume time and gold. There's a reason why only few people ever answer when calls for more guildhouses are made, and they usually do so reluctantly.
Guilds and religions are huge time and money pits, and few really want to manage them.
Most multi-realm alliances have either a religion or a guild that they coordinate at least their military movements and campaigns through. The Véinsørmoot is this at the very least. It will stay around, for sure.
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Most multi-realm alliances have either a religion or a guild that they coordinate at least their military movements and campaigns through. The Véinsørmoot is this at the very least. It will stay around, for sure.
In most cases, the guilds are led by a ruler, or otherwise a duke, no?
I'm not saying it's theoretically impossible. I'm just saying I haven't seen anyone express much interest in doing administrative work for the 'moot, which would be required if Vellos "moved on to other things".
And considering the amount of old religions I've seen crumble due to lack of priests/elders recently, I don't think people are getting any more interested in these things than before. Quite the contrary.
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In most cases, the guilds are led by a ruler, or otherwise a duke, no?
I'm not saying it's theoretically impossible. I'm just saying I haven't seen anyone express much interest in doing administrative work for the 'moot, which would be required if Vellos "moved on to other things".
Possibly. I guess the big thing will be to see if anyone steps in to help fill the leadership void once Vellos goes.
And considering the amount of old religions I've seen crumble due to lack of priests/elders recently, I don't think people are getting any more interested in these things than before. Quite the contrary.
True. It'll be interesting to see if Triunism can stay alive.
The Maroccidens in general is rather... religiously boring.
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Ah, the wonders of SA. We are very interesting, or at least we like to think so...
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Possibly. I guess the big thing will be to see if anyone steps in to help fill the leadership void once Vellos goes.
True. It'll be interesting to see if Triunism can stay alive.
The Maroccidens in general is rather... religiously boring.
Speaking of which, religions being taxed again will really hurt. While I like that as a lord I can tax any temples I don't adhere to to make their life more complicated, imo it should be counterbalanced with the religion's ability to ask for an automatic tax share of the region.
Religions were already ridiculous money pits as it was... And it's now getting worse.
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Speaking of which, religions being taxed again will really hurt. While I like that as a lord I can tax any temples I don't adhere to to make their life more complicated, imo it should be counterbalanced with the religion's ability to ask for an automatic tax share of the region.
Religions were already ridiculous money pits as it was... And it's now getting worse.
You won't get to choose how much you tax each temple, will you?
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Speaking of which, religions being taxed again will really hurt. While I like that as a lord I can tax any temples I don't adhere to to make their life more complicated, imo it should be counterbalanced with the religion's ability to ask for an automatic tax share of the region.
Religions were already ridiculous money pits as it was... And it's now getting worse.
Indeed. I very mush dislike this. I've been stockpiling gold in Triunist temples for a while as a means of building up a personal fortune I can use to support my preferred guilds for years if necessary, and now it will all be taxed. Outrageous!
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And most Lords who are part of a religion do not even want to tax their 'own' temples.
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You won't get to choose how much you tax each temple, will you?
Temples will be taxed at halfrate. You can create always attempt to create a Tax Haven (Region that taxes at 2%) that will allow you to save a lot of that gold, especially if you have enough influence to capture the Duke Share as well.
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And most Lords who are part of a religion do not even want to tax their 'own' temples.
Indeed, because it is usually their responsibility to make sure the local coffers are filled. This just means they have to travel back to their region that much more often, because that tax is deducted from the treasury no matter how far away from the temple you are or how infrequently you visit your own region.
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Temples will be taxed at halfrate. You can create always attempt to create a Tax Haven (Region that taxes at 2%) that will allow you to save a lot of that gold, especially if you have enough influence to capture the Duke Share as well.
I guess the easiest way is to make sure the gold is returned to the temple, than you do not have to lower the taxes of your region (for large amounts of course).
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Indeed, because it is usually their responsibility to make sure the local coffers are filled. This just means they have to travel back to their region that much more often, because that tax is deducted from the treasury no matter how far away from the temple you are or how infrequently you visit your own region.
You can use the Global Treasury for that easily.
I guess the easiest way is to make sure the gold is returned to the temple, than you do not have to lower the taxes of your region (for large amounts of course).
True, have the Duke be also the Lord and he can return pretty much everything except the Ruler share. The 2% Tax Rate is just to further minimize the gold taken from the Treasury.
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You can use the Global Treasury for that easily.
You do realize that maintenance paid out of the global treasury is more expensive, right?
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Nope :) Never knew that.
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You do realize that maintenance paid out of the global treasury is more expensive, right?
By what factor again? 2x? I think it's 4x, right? Manageable for small religions, but large multi-realm religions like SA or VE, not so much...
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Studying the last two reports, CoI paid 15 gold maintenance from the Global Treasury and lost 25 in the Global Treasury. But still, especially since CoI is reasonably big and rich, the costs are nothing.
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By what factor again? 2x? I think it's 4x, right? Manageable for small religions, but large multi-realm religions like SA or VE, not so much...
The factor is 1,5 if I am right
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The factor is 1,5 if I am right
1.5? Its been a long while, but to the best of my recollection it was more than that. I think it was twice as much, but wouldn't be surprised if it was more. Not something that should happen too often, imo. Doesn't mean it doesn't, but y'know...
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On the FEI our religion pays almost exclusively out of the Global treasury for some (most of) our smaller temples. Only the major ones have a large bank account, and they support the smaller ones when global treasury is restocked.
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On the FEI our religion pays almost exclusively out of the Global treasury for some (most of) our smaller temples. Only the major ones have a large bank account, and they support the smaller ones when global treasury is restocked.
How many temples do you have?
While this is always possible, of course, it turns a financial burden into an greater money pit...
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Is there a thread discussing the religion taxes issue elsewhere? I say this not because I object to discussing it here, I'm just curious as to whether there is a rationale for it laid out somewhere. Throughout basically all of western history, religions have been exempt from regular taxation. Sometimes Church assets were seized, but that is already reflected in the ability to loot and sack temples. Game mechanics-wise, I don't see that there's anything wrong with how things work now, so I'm a little confused about why they would make this change, which will indeed make it *much* more annoying to maintain temples.
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From a game balance perspective, I *believe* that Taxes are introduced because Temples are used too much as Banks, which I can agree with.
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From a game balance perspective, I *believe* that Taxes are introduced because Temples are used too much as Banks, which I can agree with.
Well you can already use Secret Societies this way, so it wouldn't exactly plug the hole... And furthermore, using religions as a tax shelter is almost as old as taxes are. Besides, there are risks in storing your gold this way. A call for funds for the Global Treasury, for example, would take 10% of whatever you had stashed. You could be kicked out of the religion. Or some Elder could walk into your temple and walk out with the goods. Or both.
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Religion/SS taxing split off to a separate thread over in Helpline.
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splitting from a split off thread. Nice.
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So. is Asylon part of the Veinsmoot? And why is that area called the Veinsmoot? I've always wondered where you go the name.
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Asylon isn't part of it, but has observer status basically. The Maroccidens refers to the geographical area. The Véinsørmoot refers to the Guild through which Barca, D'Hara and Terran do a lot of their bickering with observer Realms joining in as well, more of a political entity. It was set up by Hireshmont, former Duke of Chesney, set up by Hireshmont and naturally grew to become this political platform for these three Realms. You will have to ask him for the origins of the name :)
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Asylon isn't part of it, but has observer status basically. The Maroccidens refers to the geographical area. The Véinsørmoot refers to the Guild through which Barca, D'Hara and Terran do a lot of their bickering with observer Realms joining in as well, more of a political entity. It was set up by Hireshmont, former Duke of Chesney, set up by Hireshmont and naturally grew to become this political platform for these three Realms. You will have to ask him for the origins of the name :)
So. is Asylon part of the Veinsmoot? And why is that area called the Veinsmoot? I've always wondered where you go the name.
Pretty sure I remember Hireshy saying it is just a word he made up. The 'Moot started as a just guild and basically became the name of the Maroccidental Alliance because the guild was already in place for cultural reasons and worked well and because no one proposed a better name for the alliance. I think it's pretty awesome.
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I went through a phase where I was reading the Icelandic sagas. I liked how the words looked. I liked the idea of a "meeting place," hence Moot. Véinsør is total nonsense that seemed like a neat first part of the word. When I don't feel like typing special characters I just call it the Moot.
And apparently right now the legislative bodies of Terran, D'Hara, and Barca are all running around thinking they can make independent foreign policy without consulting Grand Imperator Hireshmont. Silly Barcans and their Lurian propensities for divisiveness.
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You can leave Luria, but Luria never leaves you!
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Asylon is apart of the Messocidens (Middle-Dwilight) not the Marrocidens (Low Western-Dwilight) and only an observer in the Moot.
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iv. No realm may be admitted to this agreement unless it has at least 1 city or stronghold within Maroccidens or Mesoccidens, meaning that Asylon and Aurvandil could be eligible, but Caerwyn and Madina are not, as of the date of this treaty's drafting
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot/Treaty_of_the_Maroccidens (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot/Treaty_of_the_Maroccidens)
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I went through a phase where I was reading the Icelandic sagas. I liked how the words looked. I liked the idea of a "meeting place," hence Moot. Véinsør is total nonsense that seemed like a neat first part of the word. When I don't feel like typing special characters I just call it the Moot.
And apparently right now the legislative bodies of Terran, D'Hara, and Barca are all running around thinking they can make independent foreign policy without consulting Grand Imperator Hireshmont. Silly Barcans and their Lurian propensities for divisiveness.
I can *never* remember the first part, and am forced to always call it the 'moot.
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I can *never* remember the first part, and am forced to always call it the 'moot.
I have no idea how to make those symbols appear, so I just copy/paste when I need to be formal.
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I have no idea how to make those symbols appear, so I just copy/paste when I need to be formal.
Same here, actually. I try to find ways to reffer to it without naming it whenever possible, though, in cases where I want to be formal and avoid "'moot".
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...Does it make me a bad person if I want to destroy the organization just so I don't have to deal with the name?
>.>
<.<
...it does, doesn't it?
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...Does it make me a bad person if I want to destroy the organization just so I don't have to deal with the name?
>.>
<.<
...it does, doesn't it?
Nah, join the club! ;)
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It's a better name than some bland "Maroccidental Alliance." Who would want that?
Veinsormoot is an acceptable spelling.
I just love it that this organization I started in an idle moment where I had too much gold on hand has done so well.
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i. No realm shall be admitted to this agreement which has not adopted a republican style of governance.
Wait what? Thou wish to spread the abomination of republics?
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More or less, yeah.
Except not really. D'Hara is a monarchy.
We don't require republics, just republican governance. That could be some kind of constitutional monarchy. Heck, a very cleverly designed theocracy might even make the cut. On the other hand, a Madinan style of governance where the lords have such excessive power probably wouldn't be acceptable either.
But whatever the case, we won't be spreading it too far. The Moot cannot, within the terms of its treaty, spread indefinitely. There are geographic limits.
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More or less, yeah.
Except not really. D'Hara is a monarchy.
We don't require republics, just republican governance. That could be some kind of constitutional monarchy. Heck, a very cleverly designed theocracy might even make the cut. On the other hand, a Madinan style of governance where the lords have such excessive power probably wouldn't be acceptable either.
But whatever the case, we won't be spreading it too far. The Moot cannot, within the terms of its treaty, spread indefinitely. There are geographic limits.
I always saw it more as a mean to assure homogeneity among member states than the result of an ideology promoting the spread of this form of governance.
For the sake of RP, I like to say that D'Hara is a constitutional monarchy, where the king (Cenarious) stepped back from power to let the lords govern the land themselves. Those are reforms that were in the making, though, and that just happened to be convenient to put in place when the king auto-paused. All of our positions are elected quarterly.
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Pah, democracy is the bane of all nobility. Let its roots dig in like weeds and the peasants will begin to think they deserve a say in matters. If they can't here and now OOCly, they certainly shouldn't IC.
Serious question though. While its no secret to me that the Moot only accepts republican style governance, where are the line's drawn before its not republic enough, or allows so much say that its practically a pitiful democracy?
I'm curious.
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Pah, democracy is the bane of all nobility. Let its roots dig in like weeds and the peasants will begin to think they deserve a say in matters. If they can't here and now OOCly, they certainly shouldn't IC.
Serious question though. While its no secret to me that the Moot only accepts republican style governance, where are the line's drawn before its not republic enough, or allows so much say that its practically a pitiful democracy?
I'm curious.
We don't know, honestly. The terms of the treaty regarding it are pretty simple and could lead to a lot of interpretation. No one will know the "limits" until something happens and someone finally says "Hey, that's not acceptable!"
I always saw it more as a mean to assure homogeneity among member states than the result of an ideology promoting the spread of this form of governance.
Indeed, the Véinsørmoot operates primarily to preserve Maroccidens culture not solely the political ideas or agendas of anyone in particular. Republican style governance is a trend and part of the way of life of the Maroccidens, and thus one of the goals of the Véinsørmoot is to preserve and protect this way of life in the interests of its member states.
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Like Perth said... we don't know how to define it.
But we do know that Aurvandil does not make the cut. Asylon probably isn't republican enough either, though their much closer. Madina is probably too wacky.
Pragmatically, having one republic in the federation means we need all republics. We need stability of lords and mid-level positions to promote the kind of regional cooperation, especially for food, that the Moot is built on. Simultaneously, we need to have stability of the upper tiers of power... but we don't want a hegemon. We don't want to have one ruler last forever while others cycle through, allowing one state to accumulate huge amounts of political power.
Democracies are too unstable, autocracies too likely to produce political hegemons. So republics, constitutional monarchies (Hireshmont refers to D'Hara as a "republican monarchy" in order to convince himself that they aren't violating the Treaty), limited democracies, liberal theocracies.... any of these might work.
Aurvandi autocracy would not work. Madinan decentralization would not work. Why? Because Aurvandi autocracy clearly leads to hegemonic behavior, while Madinan decentralization is infuriating to work with across realm boundaries.
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Aurvandi autocracy would not work. Madinan decentralization would not work. Why? Because Aurvandi autocracy clearly leads to hegemonic behavior, while Madinan decentralization is infuriating to work with across realm boundaries.
Lies! You've chosen to work with individual Lords - rather than force the Lords to work through the Government. (Though, really, if you got anything through Langfords opiate-clouded mind you were doing well :P)
If D'Hara comes to me with a food treaty offer I can present it to the Lords and get it approved. Or they can bring it to the Banker for the same effect.
But to be fair, the last few Doges wouldn't have been able to tie their own shoes, much less get something done on the Grand Council so I can see why the prevailing "Madina is so damn decentralized" idea comes it.
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Democracies are too unstable, autocracies too likely to produce political hegemons. So republics, constitutional monarchies (Hireshmont refers to D'Hara as a "republican monarchy" in order to convince himself that they aren't violating the Treaty), limited democracies, liberal theocracies.... any of these might work.
That's fine, we came up with a ton of different terms to describe our government as well. I tend to favor "Feudal Republic".
Basically, imo, a "republic" stops being "republic enough" for the 'moot when the member states start to dislike how it works, for whatever reason, whether it be because an autocratic leader is creating an unpredictable state (the more power the ruler has, the greater the realm changes when a new ruler gets in place, as opposed to a realm ruled by the lords and especially the dukes who will maintain a similar set of policies regardless of who the person "in charge" is), or whether because it is a pain to work with and chaotic due to its overly decentralized system (like Madina is, or as overly-democratic realms who vote on everything tend to be).
The way I see it, because of how strong the links created by the treaty are, member states want first and foremost a stable government in the other member states, so that they can predict and understand what the other parties will do. In general, republics offer the most stability. "Rights of the lords" and other such things don't really factor in it as far as the treaty is concerned. It's a rule based on practicality, not ideology.
Lies! You've chosen to work with individual Lords - rather than force the Lords to work through the Government. (Though, really, if you got anything through Langfords opiate-clouded mind you were doing well :P)
If D'Hara comes to me with a food treaty offer I can present it to the Lords and get it approved. Or they can bring it to the Banker for the same effect.
But to be fair, the last few Doges wouldn't have been able to tie their own shoes, much less get something done on the Grand Council so I can see why the prevailing "Madina is so damn decentralized" idea comes it.
The sovereignty of the lords over the government has been used ad nauseum in order for Madina to continue her war against us and in order to refuse to sign a treaty stating they won't do it again. Obviously, it's something many of us in the 'moot grew a little tired of hearing and annoyed with. ;)
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Basically, imo, a "republic" stops being "republic enough" for the 'moot when the member states start to dislike how it works, for whatever reason, whether it be because an autocratic leader is creating an unpredictable state (the more power the ruler has, the greater the realm changes when a new ruler gets in place, as opposed to a realm ruled by the lords and especially the dukes who will maintain a similar set of policies regardless of who the person "in charge" is), or whether because it is a pain to work with and chaotic due to its overly decentralized system (like Madina is, or as overly-democratic realms who vote on everything tend to be).
The way I see it, because of how strong the links created by the treaty are, member states want first and foremost a stable government in the other member states, so that they can predict and understand what the other parties will do. In general, republics offer the most stability. "Rights of the lords" and other such things don't really factor in it as far as the treaty is concerned. It's a rule based on practicality, not ideology.
Yep, sounds about right. We want a stable Maroccidens. Which will eventually allow us to have a more assertive foreign policy, hopefully.... someday.... maybe....
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In general, republics offer the most stability.
IME, republics and democracies prove to differ only in the titles they give the councilors.
When it comes to stability, the government style is irrelevant. All the treaties, constitutions, and all that other jazz aren't worth anything more than the paper they're written one. It's the attitude of the nobles in the realm that counts.
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The sovereignty of the lords over the government has been used ad nauseum in order for Madina to continue her war against us and in order to refuse to sign a treaty stating they won't do it again. Obviously, it's something many of us in the 'moot grew a little tired of hearing and annoyed with. ;)
I'ma have to go get the Prime Minister to retell that one.
We already abandoned the Paisly claim - twice. Time for a formal letter to Hiroshmonte to make it official I guess.
Though to be fair - that was really cause we wanted to go raiding. . .which IS part of the constitution :D Paisly was good fun, but now with Aurvandil we are more than happy to let you have Paisly and feed it for you :D
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When it comes to stability, the government style is irrelevant. All the treaties, constitutions, and all that other jazz aren't worth anything more than the paper they're written one. It's the attitude of the nobles in the realm that counts.
And the realm I've been in that had the most stability without being terminally boring and prioritizing people who've been playing since 2002 over everyone else was Riombara, a republic that tried to be a democracy ;)
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Meh... all those Riombarans ever do is talk. They talk so much that they decided not to do anything for the fourth invasion, and ended up basically sitting it out. Besides, everyone knows you can't trust Riombarans.
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Meh... all those Riombarans ever do is talk. They talk so much that they decided not to do anything for the fourth invasion, and ended up basically sitting it out. Besides, everyone knows you can't trust Riombarans.
I think you're mixing up Riombarans with Melites. Riombara had to sit out most of the Fourth Invasion because they did more than just talk, and has been trying for the last 6 years to get wars going against Enweil.
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Constant wars against your neighbors and multiple secessions does not strike me as "stable." I would call Riombara "highly volatile."
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Also... we zapped about 100k CS monsters into oblivion with our amazing magical powers. And kicked their asses with our awesome military powers in Grehk before that!
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You got your asses handed to you by the monsters six ways from Sunday. The only reason you survived is because the monsters showed mercy and let you live.
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IME, republics and democracies prove to differ only in the titles they give the councilors.
When it comes to stability, the government style is irrelevant. All the treaties, constitutions, and all that other jazz aren't worth anything more than the paper they're written one. It's the attitude of the nobles in the realm that counts.
And that attitude is conditioned by government style. And I don't mean Theocracy, Tyranny, Democracy, Republic, or Monarchy on the realm info page. I mean how it really works within. Republics are oligarchic by definition. The power is concentrated in the hands of a handful of people who have been in the realm for a while, earned their power somehow, and have something to lose should the realm fail or take significant risks. Republicanism is therefore different than democracies, which try to be egalitarian, often by having everyone vote on a lot of stuff. However, people who have nothing to lose, like most knights, are much less risk-averse and therefore much more easily swayed by a good orator/propagandist, and therefore more likely to turn on allies as a good chunk of the voter base might not have ever dealt with said allies, and the alliance probably dates since before many of them were part of the realm. They are therefore more susceptible to drastic policy changes than republics are. Autocracies, on the other hand, offer a usually much more stable set of policy, but only for as long as you have the same ruler. If he gets replaced, everything can change.
Some "Republics" are much more democratic than most democracies.
Constant wars against your neighbors and multiple secessions does not strike me as "stable." I would call Riombara "highly volatile."
I would not. The wars have always been against the same people, secessions have been few and far apart, one of them resulting from a very particular context (invasion). Delvin has ruled until he got tired of it, and even with a series of newer rulers, Riombara is still doing the same old thing it always was.
Riombara is the epitome of stability, if you ask me. Nothing surprising ever comes from there. Same mentality and agenda since forever.
Stability has nothing to do with docility. A realm could be a stable warmonger, and another could be a peaceful realm of chaos. Stability is the consistency of realm politics over time. In a stable realms, rulers come and go (with the weeks or years, regardless), and nobody sees any difference for it in how the realm governs itself or deals with others.
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You got your asses handed to you by the monsters six ways from Sunday. The only reason you survived is because the monsters showed mercy and let you live.
QFT.
Evander would never, ever admit it IC, to himself let alone anyone else, but the Meridian Republic almost certainly saved our bacon.
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I would not. The wars have always been against the same people, secessions have been few and far apart, one of them resulting from a very particular context (invasion). Delvin has ruled until he got tired of it, and even with a series of newer rulers, Riombara is still doing the same old thing it always was.
Riombara is the epitome of stability, if you ask me. Nothing surprising ever comes from there. Same mentality and agenda since forever.
That's exactly what I meant by it. The mindset, the policies—they've started to change some since Delvin stepped down (or at least, they had started to when he retired), but they're still very much rooted in what Delvin built over the past 6 years—which he built on the foundation laid down by the re-founders like Tan.
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That's exactly what I meant by it. The mindset, the policies—they've started to change some since Delvin stepped down (or at least, they had started to when he retired), but they're still very much rooted in what Delvin built over the past 6 years—which he built on the foundation laid down by the re-founders like Tan.
lol, like how we allow multiple posts per person, allow torture, have shrunk the Advisory Council, and don't hold trials before bans?
Yep. I'm doing my job.
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lol, like how we allow multiple posts per person, allow torture, have shrunk the Advisory Council, and don't hold trials before bans?
Yep. I'm doing my job.
I agree :D The current election for Great Chamberlain should be an interesting indicator of where the realm is headed.
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MUAHAHA!!!
Cyrilos, the hyperviolent cult-fanatic proto-fascist wins again!
We're one step closer to being Riombara Tilog.
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We're one step closer to being Riombara Tilog.
How did we even end up talking about this in the Veinsormoot thread again? ;)
Congratulations on your narrow victory. I suggest you press you press your advantage.
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How did we even end up talking about this in the Veinsormoot thread again? ;)
Congratulations on your narrow victory. I suggest you press you press your advantage.
Oh, I plan to. And if it leads to my honor/prestige falling below the threshold to be judge... so be it.
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I hear Enweil's had a couple of good victories lately.
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I hear Enweil's had a couple of good victories lately.
Now you're just trying to stir up trouble ;)
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Now you're just trying to stir up trouble ;)
Maybe. 8)
But hey, they did so without our help!
If only they had brought so many men for the siege on Fwuvoghor...
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the siege on Fwuvoghor...
You mean "the catastrophically botched and poorly planned frontal assault" on Fwuvoghor? I would hardly call it a siege.
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Wait a second...
This isn't a Riombara thread. This is the Véinsørmoot thread. Why are we talking about this?
The Véinsørmoot rocks! And if the elders will get off their lazy arses and respond, more stuff should be coming from it soon.
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Why isn't Barca expanding west? Or Terran west and north? Or D'Hara east?
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Asylon claims all the lands beyond Terran's north.
Don't know whats wrong with Barca or D'hara. Maybe they're too lazy. :P
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You mean "the catastrophically botched and poorly planned frontal assault" on Fwuvoghor? I would hardly call it a siege.
Blame TMP for hitting a realm at war and forcing it to fight in a battle despite the poor odds that presented themselves. Thank god that's gone, now.
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Why isn't Barca expanding west? Or Terran west and north? Or D'Hara east?
Before the new estates, I think pretty much everyone was simply unable to expand due to lack of knights.
After the new estates.... it's only been 10 days. Give people time.
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Before the new estates, I think pretty much everyone was simply unable to expand due to lack of knights.
After the new estates.... it's only been 10 days. Give people time.
Indeed, Though past the lighthouse, it's just food drainage lands.
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I would just like to point out the awesomeness that the Dwilight forum is now being consistently dominated by two threads about South-Western Dwilight. One about Madina/Aurvandil and one about the Véinsørmoot.
The point here being: remember those days when the Dwilight forum was nothing but "blah blah blah SA this, blah blah blah SA that?" Those days are no longer. 8)
All Hail the Véinsørmoot! All Hail Maroccidens!
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I would just like to point out the awesomeness that the Dwilight forum is now being consistently dominated by two threads about South-Western Dwilight. One about Madina/Aurvandil and one about the Véinsørmoot.
The point here being: remember those days when the Dwilight forum was nothing but "blah blah blah SA this, blah blah blah SA that?" Those days are no longer. 8)
All Hail the Véinsørmoot! All Hail Maroccidens!
All hail D'Hara's food problems!
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The point here being: remember those days when the Dwilight forum was nothing but "blah blah blah SA this, blah blah blah SA that?" Those days are no longer. 8)
All Hail the Véinsørmoot! All Hail Maroccidens!
*Geronus smiles and continues to bide his time
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"Huray, All hail the moot!" Abbot reacts in agreement, rolling his eyes hoping not to look suspicious of any kind in terms of involvement for personal/madinan gain.
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Agreed. It takes time to expand. Stay tuned people. You do know we need 40 episodes of training montage and staring at the region before we can TO it, right?
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Asylon claims all the lands beyond Terran's north.
ooo? Well then. We may be about to have some interesting diplomacy. Because Asylon really doesn't legally claim any lands north of Terran, according to our current claims treaty.
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Well, Asylon was a colony of Caerwyn, and according to the treaty should inherit its claims. ;)
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Tell that to Astrum ;) Besides, the Nobles from Caerwyn have some interests now to curry favour with the Véinsørmoot, especially with Terran. They might be pressed not to make any issue about it.
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ooo? Well then. We may be about to have some interesting diplomacy. Because Asylon really doesn't legally claim any lands north of Terran, according to our current claims treaty.
I think Astrum may have a bit of a problem with that claim, too.
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Just a small one. And Barca won't be taking regions for another couple of weeks. Travel time there in winter (or summer) is not nice, so the army is sticking close to home to deal with rogues. Once Spring hits, there will be more expansion, so no need to worry about that.
Food drain. Would you not just start up a fledgling realm there? I'm thinking along the lines of D'Hara wants to become a trader realm, so why not create a customer? Let them take a few mountains, and turn all your excess imports into gold. Just a thought.
Finn.
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Food drain. Would you not just start up a fledgling realm there? I'm thinking along the lines of D'Hara wants to become a trader realm, so why not create a customer? Let them take a few mountains, and turn all your excess imports into gold. Just a thought.
Finn.
Because there's no way they could afford to buy prices at any price near what we pay for it. Furthermore, it'd be a competitor for food... why would we want that?
Eventually, maybe. When food issues is truly a thing of the past. But I would suspect it would just be a normal TO, not a colony.
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Well, Asylon was a colony of Caerwyn, and according to the treaty should inherit its claims. ;)
Basically Asylons land claims are from Echuir to Storms keep. 8)
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Basically Asylons land claims are from Echuir to Storms keep. 8)
And Madina and Summerdale, since that's where Caerwyn comes from. :P
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And Madina and Summerdale, since that's where Caerwyn comes from. :P
You mean Springdale? 'Cause Springdale never did get the time to expand to where Summerdale is.
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Oh and I was born in Port Raviel so I lay claim to D'hara to. 8)
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You mean Springdale? 'Cause Springdale never did get the time to expand to where Summerdale is.
Aren't these the shields of Madina and Summerdale/Libero Empire?
(http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/Caerwynbanner.jpg)
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Aren't these the shields of Madina and Summerdale/Libero Empire?
(http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/Caerwynbanner.jpg)
Summerdale is the successor to Springdale, they have similar realm shields.
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Springdale I meant, not Summerdale.
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Springdale I meant, not Summerdale.
A few of us Springdalians came to help found Caerwyn. We were very few, 2 I think, but very prominent. Libero and Summerdale did not exist back then, and I don't see anything in Summerdale that I can relate to the old Springdale, though it has been quite some time.
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A few of us Springdalians came to help found Caerwyn. We were very few, 2 I think, but very prominent. Libero and Summerdale did not exist back then, and I don't see anything in Summerdale that I can relate to the old Springdale, though it has been quite some time.
Clearly enough for a strong claim of Asylon to the old realm of Springdale. :P
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Clearly enough for a strong claim of Asylon to the old realm of Springdale. :P
I doubt the Caerwynian colonists would agree with you. Most of them loathe you for breaking your agreements with them.
Though I invite you to try. 8)
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Well, Asylon was a colony of Caerwyn, and according to the treaty should inherit its claims. ;)
Depends on your interpretation of the legalese.
"In the event of a secession from one of the signing realms, the new realm (or Child Realm) is considered to have the same Legal Claims as their Parent Realm (the realm they seceded from), until such a time as this treaty is rewritten."
Technically, Asylon was formed before this treaty. Since then, Caerwyn has had a secession... two, in fact. Via to Asylon and Itaulond. Presumably the duchy of Via would have claim to its own regions (which accompanied it) and the duchy of Itau would be the legal successor to its own regions (which accompanied it). Caerwyn could turn over legal claims to Asylon, if Caerwyn still existed. But, in its demise, to my knowledge, it never formally transfered legal claims.
Thus, while this treaty does not establish a clear definition of what to do with claims in the event of a realm's destruction, it does establish a few principles which I shall refer to as "Nonexpansion," "Entity, and "Heritability."
Nonexpansion- Even in the event of secessions and region revolts, claims do not change. The treaty is evidently framed to prevent "claim creep" wherein one realm gradually secures more and more claims. It is an inflexible claim regime.
Heritability- Claims are passed down to succeeding constituent entities. Caerwyn's claims would be assumed by successor states, meaning the Duchy of Via but, probably more properly, Itaulond. Itaulond probably has the strongest claim to Caerwyn's share of the treaty.
Entity- Claims can evidently be traded and exchanged, meaning they are not to be regarded as inalienable.
Under nonexpansion, Asylon would clearly have an issue: they are clearly engaging in "claim creep," presuming to claim even lands directly under Terran's influence which they can never hope to control. Under heritability, Asylon never formally become Caerwyn's heir. But, the best they can reasonably hope for is that they can claim the Duchy of Via legally, while Itaulond gets the Duchy of Itau, and other regions become "free lands." This is the strongest argument for Asylon's claims. A different interpretation of the treaty would suggest that Itau maintains claims to all lands Caerwyn ever claimed, as it is the only "Child Realm," and Via's allegiance change could threaten Nonexpansion. Under Entity, we could regard claims as being "fiat assets," whereby the destruction of their holding entity (namely, Caerwyn) would destroy the asset as well, so that all of Caerwyn's lands, even in the Duchy of Via and Itaulond, would technically be "free lands" under the treaty, though obviously not under any practical assessment.
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Bah! Might makes right!
And you guys must know that we are being tongue and cheek about these claims. I of course still stand by my claim to everything north of Asylon in corridor fashion all the way back to the Storms keep though... 8)
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Bah! Might makes right!
And you guys must know that we are being tongue and cheek about these claims. I of course still stand by my claim to everything north of Asylon in corridor fashion all the way back to the Storms keep though... 8)
Considering you didn't respect your initial agreements with Caerwyn, I don't see anyone rushing in to defend your claims now. Which, in the end, is all that really matters. You can claim half the continent if you want (Evergard did, however you spell that). But if you can't defend your claims, and others don't recognize it, it's not worth anything.
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Considering you didn't respect your initial agreements with Caerwyn, I don't see anyone rushing in to defend your claims now. Which, in the end, is all that really matters. You can claim half the continent if you want (Evergard did, however you spell that). But if you can't defend your claims, and others don't recognize it, it's not worth anything.
You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.
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You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.
True that, I remember when we both arrived in Shrine of Seeklander at the same time and they managed to start the TO first by seconds. So Astrum declared war and claimed it for food for, even though Everguard offered to trade us food.
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You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.
Caerwyn was pretty much founded *because* of Everguard. We wouldn't have admited it at the time, but all us Taselak players from the SEI that had just sunk could just not tolerate Toren getting themselves a big chunk of Dwilight. It would have been too much of an insult, considering how extremely poorly we had viewed that realm back on the SEI. That we started out in Eidulb, quite close to them, was far from a coincidence. But due to not having a ruler in five days, and I think bugs were involved, when they threatened us we just didn't have the ability to resist as we didn't yet have a council or a duke, so instead of dying before we managed to set ourselves up, we moved to Golden Farrow.
Nobody ever liked Everguard. They were arrogrant, claiming ALL of western dwilight, trying to bully everyone who would set up there, so they were neither liked by the old Taselak migrants, nor by the people in Springdale from which they left, nor by their SA neighours because of their religious supremacy ideology.
While there were those in Caerwyn that supported helping Everguard in the end, considering SA the greater enemy, the deep dislike of the torenites and of their forcing Caerwyn to move their capital was too much to forgive. Many in Caerwyn were quite happy to see Astrum kill Everguard.
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While there were those in Caerwyn that supported helping Everguard in the end, considering SA the greater enemy, the deep dislike of the torenites and of their forcing Caerwyn to move their capital was too much to forgive. Many in Caerwyn were quite happy to see Astrum kill Everguard.
Now that I find interesting. Astrum wasn't very big then, consisting of all of 8 regions, and I never had an inkling that Caerwyn considered SA a potential threat that far back. As I recall, Caerwyn even offered to send an army north to help us finish Everguard off... Relations were always amicable, so much so that Rowan was quite surprised when Baal started saber rattling out of the blue.
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Now that I find interesting. Astrum wasn't very big then, consisting of all of 8 regions, and I never had an inkling that Caerwyn considered SA a potential threat that far back. As I recall, Caerwyn even offered to send an army north to help us finish Everguard off... Relations were always amicable, so much so that Rowan was quite surprised when Baal started saber rattling out of the blue.
Those of us that came from Springdale were influential, and the deep hatred we grew for SA as we saw our mother realm crumble to it seemed to have been rather contagious.
Caerwyn has never allowed SA to preach. The stance had always been: "If we let them in, we'll eventually crumble like Springdale did, as SA is a cancer that rots you out from within".
But yea, we *really* didn't like 'em torenites. 8)
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Caerwyn has never allowed SA to preach. The stance had always been: "If we let them in, we'll eventually crumble like Springdale did, as SA is a cancer that rots you out from within".
Which is why Terran failed, and Caerwyn succeeded.
errr.... woops!
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Which is why Terran failed, and Caerwyn succeeded.
errr.... woops!
I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.
Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.
Caerwyn just got reckless. Makes me sad to see it gone. :(
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I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.
Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.
Caerwyn just got reckless. Makes me sad to see it gone. :(
Reckless... That's one word for it.
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Reckless... That's one word for it.
I told 'em not to do it! I did!
Then I told them to seek a ceasefire! To seek mediation!
I think they had just gotten bored and wanted to fight... :'(
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You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.
That was always so depressing...
we didn't make friends, but if i remember right we existed in the wilderness before the monster hordes were tuned down so we kinda got the bad end of it
it's okay though, we would grow in the spring and summer, gear up in fall, then brace for the winter hordes... made for some epic rp and we were actually winning with no foreign support just good tactics. until astrum strolled by, took ammando saying we couldn't feed the people (we had decent surpluses back then...) and then it went downhill pretty quickly. winter hit, we didn't have enough food, yeah.
i regret nothing. everguard was glorious, and the first realm to see the western end of dwilight.
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You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.
Only thing I remember about Everguard was that Arylon guy. If anyone ever needed to give anyone a definition of self-adulation I could just copy them a link to this guy's family pages.
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I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.
Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.
Not almost. You did. It's why we never liked Caerwyn. Caerwyn torched Saffalore.
And... yeah... I know Terran has changed a lot since its founding. I've been there the whole time. ;)
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Not almost. You did. It's why we never liked Caerwyn. Caerwyn torched Saffalore.
And... yeah... I know Terran has changed a lot since its founding. I've been there the whole time. ;)
That was after I got bored of Dwilight and deleted my character.
I'm not sure if the same motivations pushed for that war or not.
But dude, where you there when Terran was founded? The leader was... quite a show, to say the least. Everguard caliber.
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I arrived a few weeks after.
Ruler was Vesna, right? Yeah. He is kind of Hireshmont's arch-rival. They constantly butt heads. He has paused and unpaused a few times; he just recently unpaused. Hasn't said anything yet though.
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I arrived a few weeks after.
Ruler was Vesna, right? Yeah. He is kind of Hireshmont's arch-rival. They constantly butt heads. He has paused and unpaused a few times; he just recently unpaused. Hasn't said anything yet though.
Yes, Vesna!
Oh damn, I thought he was long gone. As in, *gone* gone.
We may have to declare war on you over this. ;)
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Which is why Terran failed, and Caerwyn succeeded.
errr.... woops!
What Caerwyn didn't realize, and I told them this many times, is that they already had this so-called "freedom" from SA and whatnot. We had that freedom - no SA preaching, Averoth and Thulsoma were gone and the Saxons had abandoned us pretty much. It was such a pointless war and if Duke Amandil hadn't ruined it all, I might have become the Archon of Caerwyn.
Then I would make peace with SA and declare war on Asylon for taking Lowervia XD
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Then I would make peace with SA...
Speaking as the player of the character with whom you would have had to make peace with: No, you wouldn't have. You would have gotten the same offer that .. whoever it was that I gave to the offer to got. (Can't remember her name...) If you had accepted it, then the people in Caerwyn would probably have revolted against you. If you hadn't accepted it, then Caerwyn probably would have suffered the same starvation that it eventually went through.
But you wouldn't have just easily signed peace with Astrum.
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Speaking as the player of the character with whom you would have had to make peace with: No, you wouldn't have. You would have gotten the same offer that .. whoever it was that I gave to the offer to got. (Can't remember her name...) If you had accepted it, then the people in Caerwyn would probably have revolted against you. If you hadn't accepted it, then Caerwyn probably would have suffered the same starvation that it eventually went through.
But you wouldn't have just easily signed peace with Astrum.
Not easily but it would have been better than our death.
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That is apparently not what the vast majority of Caerwyn thought.
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That is apparently not what the vast majority of Caerwyn thought.
Sometimes, that's not important.
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Sometimes no. But sometimes yes. Like when you're the ruler trying to sell your proposed treaty to the realm. The same realm that said "We'd rather let every peasant in the entire realm die, drain all our family fortunes dry, and send all of our nobles offspring to fight you to the death, than allow your conquest of even a single region be any easier."
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Depends on your interpretation of the legalese.
"In the event of a secession from one of the signing realms, the new realm (or Child Realm) is considered to have the same Legal Claims as their Parent Realm (the realm they seceded from), until such a time as this treaty is rewritten."
Technically, Asylon was formed before this treaty. Since then, Caerwyn has had a secession... two, in fact. Via to Asylon and Itaulond. Presumably the duchy of Via would have claim to its own regions (which accompanied it) and the duchy of Itau would be the legal successor to its own regions (which accompanied it). Caerwyn could turn over legal claims to Asylon, if Caerwyn still existed. But, in its demise, to my knowledge, it never formally transfered legal claims.
Thus, while this treaty does not establish a clear definition of what to do with claims in the event of a realm's destruction, it does establish a few principles which I shall refer to as "Nonexpansion," "Entity, and "Heritability."
Nonexpansion- Even in the event of secessions and region revolts, claims do not change. The treaty is evidently framed to prevent "claim creep" wherein one realm gradually secures more and more claims. It is an inflexible claim regime.
Heritability- Claims are passed down to succeeding constituent entities. Caerwyn's claims would be assumed by successor states, meaning the Duchy of Via but, probably more properly, Itaulond. Itaulond probably has the strongest claim to Caerwyn's share of the treaty.
Entity- Claims can evidently be traded and exchanged, meaning they are not to be regarded as inalienable.
Under nonexpansion, Asylon would clearly have an issue: they are clearly engaging in "claim creep," presuming to claim even lands directly under Terran's influence which they can never hope to control. Under heritability, Asylon never formally become Caerwyn's heir. But, the best they can reasonably hope for is that they can claim the Duchy of Via legally, while Itaulond gets the Duchy of Itau, and other regions become "free lands." This is the strongest argument for Asylon's claims. A different interpretation of the treaty would suggest that Itau maintains claims to all lands Caerwyn ever claimed, as it is the only "Child Realm," and Via's allegiance change could threaten Nonexpansion. Under Entity, we could regard claims as being "fiat assets," whereby the destruction of their holding entity (namely, Caerwyn) would destroy the asset as well, so that all of Caerwyn's lands, even in the Duchy of Via and Itaulond, would technically be "free lands" under the treaty, though obviously not under any practical assessment.
This post alone has completely validated all the time I put into writing that treaty. Thank you. :)
Almost makes me want to write another treaty... almost.
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This post alone has completely validated all the time I put into writing that treaty. Thank you. :)
Almost makes me want to write another treaty... almost.
Isn't it a great feeling? I love whenever game documents I wrote get cited by others. Gives me little tingly feelings.