Now hear me out, this is more than a 5 minute fix, but if we want BM to develop its trade facets this will be one step on that path. I've been awaiting the new trade system for about.... 2+ RL years and I'm ready. Okay, here we go!
I have a few parts to this idea, but there's one real core nugget to consider, and I know the initial reaction may not be favorable, but try to bear with me.
Each region needs a money vault.
Yes, you heard me right, a place to put money that's not on your person, a guild or bonds. A for real, local region vault. There's a reason (actually a couple), and I hope I can convince you it's a good idea.
For a trading system to work, gold needs to be associated with the trading, not just the noble. You see, if a region is buying and selling food (and eventually other goods), there needs to be a pile of gold to exchange for it. Right now that pile is in the hands of the Lord personally, but the Steward kind of mucks that up. If the Steward buys some food, he pays for it out of pocket. If we start adding more goods, then this will rapidly become untenable.
You see, we already have places to put gold (guilds, temples), but these are not associated with region maintenance. A region's vault would be the nexus of the region's various needs:
0) Building maintenance at regular intervals
1) Paying militia at regular intervals, with warnings about not paying just like a normal unit
2) Repairing (and upgrading) walls
3) Paying into monster/undead bounties
4) Building new buildings
5) *Trade* of all sorts. Sales go to the vault directly and immediately, purchases leave from there
6) Festival costs
7) (possibly) put funds into the warchest of any armies associated with the region
These could then be associated with the region's funds, not just the Lord's funds. The Lord (of course) could take and put into the vault, as is his prerogative.
This means that the role of Steward would no longer be a wacky, more title than use kind of role within the realm. Stewards could handle more of the maintenance, and give the Banker a redundant person to go to if the Lord is unavailable or just doesn't care.
This alone would be useful, but it also allows us to continue to even greater heights for how to organize things financially, and especially with trade involved.
A Lord's income (per tax) could come as a percentage, just like the other knights
The remainder would be put directly into the region's vault. A Lord may, if they wish, just set their share to all not going to knights, but then they would have to manually deposit to their vault as needed. Once a region gets up and stable, they could drop their own rate to start auto-filling the vault, but that's all personal choices.
Alternatively, knights get a fixed amount of gold per week instead of a percentage of the region's income. This is a big change, but it would mean that a region Lord can say "work for me, you'll get xx gold/week". This is harder to do, as a region's income is not nearly fixed and a bad tax day (due to war, etc) makes the process of deciding who gets how much, so I think this is overreaching for most players.
The overall goal of my suggestion here is to divorce a region's gold from being directly linked to the region Lord. That way there is more flexibility in how a region's things are paid for, as opposed to a noble's things (like unit costs). Stewards can be made more useful and there's opportunity for the Banker to start having more to do. This is a step in the direction of having an expanded trade situation as well.
Additional points:
1) The type of the region should limit the vault's size. Cities > Stronghold > Townsland > ... etc. Anything that won't fit from taxes goes directly to the Lord as normal income.
2) The region's vault should be the thing attacked by an infiltrator or looting, not the amorphous "tax not yet fully collected" vault.
3) Should the Banker should be able to inspect a vault? Not sure about this one. Perhaps if they actually visit the region in person.
4) Only the region Lord should have access to the vault, though I could see an argument for a Steward, Banker, or Duke to also have access.
5) If this is in place, and gold becomes a commodity that can be managed more like food (or stone, wood, metal, wares, etc), then can it be moved to another region's vault via caravans, like food? This is only important in the "give" sense right now, but it would allow you to empty the vault in the face of looting/attackers. At the very least this would mean the game now has two "goods": grain and gold, so the inital groundwork for a large economic system could be put into place and tested. Adding more options to the drop down box would be easier than building it from whole cloth at dev time.
1. What is the root problem I am trying to fix and/or What is the root benefit I am trying to achieve? (i.e. asking to increase the rate at which people lose positions from wounds is probably at root a request to increase turnover)
The root problem this is trying to address, in my mind, is that money in BM is currently very personal (unless stashed in a guildhouse), but that limits how a region's funds are managed. Adding a regional vault means that a Lord may delegate and eventually, as the economic side of things advances, those vaults will be working hand in hand with the warehouses of the region. Money becomes just another good from the perspective of a region, it is produced, sold, used, etc. without having to come through the 'personal vault' of the region Lord.
For example, if it took 180 gold, 10 stone, 50 wood and 50 metal to build a blacksmith in a region, that gold should come from the "warehouse" (vault) instead of the noble ordering the construction. It's still the Lord's money, but now it's not in his pocket and a Steward could make the building while the Lord is off galavanting about with the army (or in prison, dead, deposed, exiled, deported, AFK, or otherwise!).
2. Is this the smallest/simplest/least disruptive change to the overall game I can think of to accomplish my goal? (i.e. changing the percentage that you lose your position is a lot easier than an entirely new system of Council positions that takes into account realm conditions to provide the maximum number of people with positions)
I really don't know. I have lots of other ideas on how to take this to complicated extremes, but just adding a vault and paying the existing needs from it seems to be a simple way to make this change.
3. Does this issue reflect a local (i.e. one realm/religion/island/region/whatever) problem or a game-wide state of affairs?
I see it as a game-wide issue.
I have more ideas, especially as to how to grow out the economic side of things organically (as to not cause *too* much disruption to a running island), but this is a big enough change to cause the devs to blow a gasket as is, so let's hear your comments.
Thank you for reading this far.
Quote from: acrandal on September 01, 2011, 07:19:35 AM
Now hear me out, this is more than a 5 minute fix, but if we want BM to develop its trade facets this will be one step on that path. I've been awaiting the new trade system for about.... 2+ RL years and I'm ready. Okay, here we go!
I have a few parts to this idea, but there's one real core nugget to consider, and I know the initial reaction may not be favorable, but try to bear with me.
Each region needs a money vault.
Yes, you heard me right, a place to put money that's not on your person, a guild or bonds. A for real, local region vault. There's a reason (actually a couple), and I hope I can convince you it's a good idea.
For a trading system to work, gold needs to be associated with the trading, not just the noble. You see, if a region is buying and selling food (and eventually other goods), there needs to be a pile of gold to exchange for it. Right now that pile is in the hands of the Lord personally, but the Steward kind of mucks that up. If the Steward buys some food, he pays for it out of pocket. If we start adding more goods, then this will rapidly become untenable.
You see, we already have places to put gold (guilds, temples), but these are not associated with region maintenance. A region's vault would be the nexus of the region's various needs:
0) Building maintenance at regular intervals
1) Paying militia at regular intervals, with warnings about not paying just like a normal unit
2) Repairing (and upgrading) walls
3) Paying into monster/undead bounties
4) Building new buildings
5) *Trade* of all sorts. Sales go to the vault directly and immediately, purchases leave from there
6) Festival costs
7) (possibly) put funds into the warchest of any armies associated with the region
These could then be associated with the region's funds, not just the Lord's funds. The Lord (of course) could take and put into the vault, as is his prerogative.
This means that the role of Steward would no longer be a wacky, more title than use kind of role within the realm. Stewards could handle more of the maintenance, and give the Banker a redundant person to go to if the Lord is unavailable or just doesn't care.
This alone would be useful, but it also allows us to continue to even greater heights for how to organize things financially, and especially with trade involved.
You realise that both the Lord and the Steward can place buy and sell orders that use the current Region Trade Balance rather then paying for them out of pocket right? It is one way I increase the tax income for my knights, by ensuring food my regions sells goes into the trade balance which is then distributed at tax time.
i still think any vault should act more like religion's global treasury. money in only, no withdrawal.
but that means trade sales income can't be put into that box.
if someone can put money in and take it out, even if it's only the lord, that gets around the property/wealth taxes.. i know, we have guilds/temples or even secret socs for that already.. so that's nothing new, but still. i'm sure there are other things to consider.. like a lord can't put bonds in and take gold out, etc.
All in all, I like the ideas a lot. If they do get approved, they will take time to be implemented, though.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 01, 2011, 07:45:18 AM
You realise that both the Lord and the Steward can place buy and sell orders that use the current Region Trade Balance rather then paying for them out of pocket right? It is one way I increase the tax income for my knights, by ensuring food my regions sells goes into the trade balance which is then distributed at tax time.
Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands. This is especially important for more rural regions. I hadn't pondered that implication yet.
I do want some clarification about buy orders, though. When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse. It doesn't come from the trade balance. So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance? I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket. If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income? I just want to be clear on the mechanics.
Quote from: acrandal on September 01, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands. This is especially important for more rural regions. I hadn't pondered that implication yet.
I do want some clarification about buy orders, though. When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse. It doesn't come from the trade balance. So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance? I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket. If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income? I just want to be clear on the mechanics.
There are automatic sell, automatic buy, manual buy, and manual sell offers. Automatic offers come out/go in to region tax offices. Manual buy offers come out of the pockets of the one one who set it up. Manual sell offers go into the region tax offices.
It IS possible to set up an automatic buy offer that exceeds your regions tax income. Paisly lost ALL of its infrastructure due to this mistake--take heed.
Quote from: acrandal on September 01, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
Yes, the sales from food do boost the knight's income as it stands. This is especially important for more rural regions. I hadn't pondered that implication yet.
I do want some clarification about buy orders, though. When I issue a buy order in a region, that money comes out of my pocket and goes into the hands of the warehouse. It doesn't come from the trade balance. So if a Steward issues the order (last I checked, they could but I don't remember the details very well), you imply that money for the buy comes from the trade balance? I thought it came right out of the Steward's pocket. If it does come from the trade balance, then what is stopping a Steward from ordering buy orders in excess of the region's income? I just want to be clear on the mechanics.
Yes you can do both. You can set up (as a steward or a Lord) to bull/sell x food at y cost. In this case the money for buy orders comes from your pocket. You can also set up the region to buy/sell food at a price once a threshold is meet, in which case the trade balance is used.
Nothing is stopping a steward from setting up buy orders that could potentially bankrupt the region, that is why picking a steward is a BIG trust decision. Then again there is nothing stopping a steward from setting up manual sale orders and pocketing the gold.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 02, 2011, 01:53:44 AM
Yes you can do both. You can set up (as a steward or a Lord) to bull/sell x food at y cost. In this case the money for buy orders comes from your pocket. You can also set up the region to buy/sell food at a price once a threshold is meet, in which case the trade balance is used.
Nothing is stopping a steward from setting up buy orders that could potentially bankrupt the region, that is why picking a steward is a BIG trust decision. Then again there is nothing stopping a steward from setting up manual sale orders and pocketing the gold.
Wait--how does the steward pocket the gold, other than through his tax share?
Manual sales give gold to the pocket rather than tax share. Automatic tax shares go to the trade balance.
You know that I've just realised, so many Lord probably have no idea just what stewards CAN do.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 02, 2011, 03:31:24 AM
You know that I've just realised, so many Lord probably have no idea just what stewards CAN do.
I'm often disturbed by how few lords know how any of the economy works. I have to train people all the time on how to even send a manual caravan all the time, or that having their tax rate low might be nice on the peasants but it might also explain why they're asking for money to keep a unit in the field. Mostly just have to be patient.
I've been at this game for a very long time (and have spent a lot of effort to understand the economic and good system of BM) but the buy/sell stuff is still a bit confusing when it comes to stewards. It just doesn't come up enough for me to learn about it in detail. The explanations here so far have cleared up a few things, but I'm not sure the current system is better than the one I proposed so far. I do like that if I'm ever a steward again, I can really tank my region if I want.
Quote from: acrandal on September 02, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
I'm often disturbed by how few lords know how any of the economy works. I have to train people all the time on how to even send a manual caravan all the time, or that having their tax rate low might be nice on the peasants but it might also explain why they're asking for money to keep a unit in the field. Mostly just have to be patient.
I've been at this game for a very long time (and have spent a lot of effort to understand the economic and good system of BM) but the buy/sell stuff is still a bit confusing when it comes to stewards. It just doesn't come up enough for me to learn about it in detail. The explanations here so far have cleared up a few things, but I'm not sure the current system is better than the one I proposed so far. I do like that if I'm ever a steward again, I can really tank my region if I want.
The current system is already implemented. Yours requires a coding change from the Devs who are already overworked and have a massive todo list. Unless the change offers a large improvement the chances of it happening any time soon are very low I would think.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 02, 2011, 03:51:35 AM
The current system is already implemented. Yours requires a coding change from the Devs who are already overworked and have a massive todo list. Unless the change offers a large improvement the chances of it happening any time soon are very low I would think.
Don't you think it would greatly simplify things? Perhaps not for now, since it will require some work, but if implemented in the future it would be a great improvement.
Quote from: JPierreD on September 02, 2011, 03:55:48 AM
Don't you think it would greatly simplify things? Perhaps not for now, since it will require some work, but if implemented in the future it would be a great improvement.
No I see no massive improvements. My other consideration is that I'm not aware of the full extent of the changes for the new estate and economic system, and whether these changed proposals will remain relevant at all in that context. But really nothing here is compelling enough to make me think it would be a priority, and in that case I would rather see how the game develops with other proposals that are in development.
I would support an easy option for the Region Lord to somehow pay for the expenses of his region with his own gold when the region runs a deficit and cannot pay militia, infrastructure etc.
Quote from: Telrunya on September 02, 2011, 01:12:02 PM
I would support an easy option for the Region Lord to somehow pay for the expenses of his region with his own gold when the region runs a deficit and cannot pay militia, infrastructure etc.
Now THERE'S a change that would actually improve things. Losing 3000 worth of infrastructure due to too much food sales shouldn't happen if the lord is sitting in region with gold in his pocket.
Quote from: Telrunya on September 02, 2011, 01:12:02 PM
I would support an easy option for the Region Lord to somehow pay for the expenses of his region with his own gold when the region runs a deficit and cannot pay militia, infrastructure etc.
I think that would allow exploits: you could deploy just as much militia as you want, regardless of the region's income, as long as someone else funds you. I don't think this was something desirable.
Why would this not be desirable? I am certain that border regions in countries/empires did not produce enough gold to man the militia defending them. That gold came from elsewhere, why should we not do the same here? If a wealthy duke wants to keep the fighting away from his/her city, why not pay for militia to be placed in the poor region which would block access?
Quote from: Charles on September 02, 2011, 02:41:19 PM
Why would this not be desirable? I am certain that border regions in countries/empires did not produce enough gold to man the militia defending them. That gold came from elsewhere, why should we not do the same here? If a wealthy duke wants to keep the fighting away from his/her city, why not pay for militia to be placed in the poor region which would block access?
I guess because a lot of wars would become infinite stalemates: if the front is narrow and you can clog it with militia, war would boil down to the one that micromanages gold flow the better to keep said militia in place.
As things are now, if you want to win a war you have no choice but to dump money into nobles (players!) and organize them the best you can to face the enemy.
While perhaps the first could be more realistic, the second is definitely more fun. Especially for those who are not allowed to play with gold an militia (knights)
Quote from: Peri on September 02, 2011, 02:54:45 PM
I guess because a lot of wars would become infinite stalemates: if the front is narrow and you can clog it with militia, war would boil down to the one that micromanages gold flow the better to keep said militia in place.
As things are now, if you want to win a war you have no choice but to dump money into nobles (players!) and organize them the best you can to face the enemy.
While perhaps the first could be more realistic, the second is definitely more fun. Especially for those who are not allowed to play with gold an militia (knights)
Eh, right now you can use investments to fund very high militia levels. You know any noble in your realm can invest in any region, assuming they have sufficient family gold? Your duke could easily send 500 gold to his family every week and invest in your poor border region.
Quote from: egamma on September 02, 2011, 03:32:43 PM
Eh, right now you can use investments to fund very high militia levels. You know any noble in your realm can invest in any region, assuming they have sufficient family gold? Your duke could easily send 500 gold to his family every week and invest in your poor border region.
This increases the threshold in a way that is absolutely on a different order of magnitude than what is proposed here, in my opinion.
Fine then. Make it so the lord's pocket only pays for buildings, not militia.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 02, 2011, 04:06:41 AM
No I see no massive improvements. My other consideration is that I'm not aware of the full extent of the changes for the new estate and economic system, and whether these changed proposals will remain relevant at all in that context. But really nothing here is compelling enough to make me think it would be a priority, and in that case I would rather see how the game develops with other proposals that are in development.
This idea has SO much potential. The most beneficial one that I can think of right now, would prevent what Chenier said happened to Paisly (which I witnessed by the way, it was not pleasant). A vault idea can show you daily changes to tax collection, maintenance costs, predicted knight tax share, trade balance, etc. As it stands, there is no simple way to track a trade balance and predict these maintenance fees. I know I've had to bust out the calculator a few times to do some number crunching. I mean, as it stands, you won't know if you bankrupt your region until taxes are collected. And if you ARE about to bankrupt it, or the militia will auto disband, etc, why not have a system in place where the region lord will have a chance to prevent the disaster by depositing the 150 gold he was saving for the next block on his new walls?
Also I rather enjoy the notion of the lord having a mechanic available to segregate gold he intends on spending on himself and/or sending to his family from gold he wants to use on the region. I've done some mental math on that one, then forget how much I spent and on what, so end up waiting for more taxes to come in so I don't find myself broke.
There will be no substantial changes to region economies until after the new estate system is developed and extensively tested. After that happens, you will almost certainly need to re-evaluate your ideas. Chances are that at least some of this will no longer be applicable.
Quote from: Indirik on September 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
There will be no substantial changes to region economies until after the new estate system is developed and extensively tested. After that happens, you will almost certainly need to re-evaluate your ideas. Chances are that at least some of this will no longer be applicable.
In that case, I shall bide my time and re-evaluate later. I've got plenty to do in RL anyway.
Any word on the long-awaited updates to the trade system (ie: more goods to ship about)? Just wondering....
Any facets of the new economy, such as wood, metal, stone, etc. are far out on the long range radar. More like the Five Year Plan than anything else. There is a lot of other stuff that needs to happen before more trade goods are a viable option. The New Estates is one of those things.
Quote from: Indirik on September 06, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
Any facets of the new economy, such as wood, metal, stone, etc. are far out on the long range radar. More like the Five Year Plan than anything else. There is a lot of other stuff that needs to happen before more trade goods are a viable option. The New Estates is one of those things.
I can't remember... why were they taken out? We did have steel for a while, not sure if stone and wood ever worked though but I think steel did.
Metal is listed in a few places. You're told how much metal it would take to do unit repairs, for example.). FEI even has wood listed as a resource in several places. But none of it actually does (did) anything. It was removed from Dwilight daily reports for that exact reason: Pointless cluttering of the message system with meaningless junk.
Quote from: Indirik on September 08, 2011, 03:00:10 PM
Metal is listed in a few places. You're told how much metal it would take to do unit repairs, for example.). FEI even has wood listed as a resource in several places. But none of it actually does (did) anything. It was removed from Dwilight daily reports for that exact reason: Pointless cluttering of the message system with meaningless junk.
But wasn't it implemented on testing for a little while? I remember seeing them on BT, and people talking about iron and everything, but it might have just been a preview phase that got removed afterwards. Kinda like armies' organization %.
Quote from: Chénier on September 09, 2011, 03:01:12 AM
But wasn't it implemented on testing for a little while? I remember seeing them on BT, and people talking about iron and everything, but it might have just been a preview phase that got removed afterwards. Kinda like armies' organization %.
So far as I know it told you how much metal would be required, but it was text only, the region didn't actually NEED the metal for the repair.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 09, 2011, 03:15:42 AM
So far as I know it told you how much metal would be required, but it was text only, the region didn't actually NEED the metal for the repair.
This.
Quote from: Indirik on September 09, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
This.
I think it said "X metal was used in during repairs". Hadn't payed attention to whether or not the metal stock was actually declining, though, if if we couldn't repair when it was empty. I guess this is indeed what it was then.
I seem to remember quite a few times trying to repair a unit, and being told that their wasn't enough metal to do so...
that's a generic flavour text for crap production