I switched one of my chars to priest a while ago and he has not recieved single point of honour or prestige since then. Is it meant to be so?
Even courtiers get it from their work, why not priests?
This was a design decision by Tom when the priests were added. Off-hand, I am not sure of the exact reason. Maybe he can give his reasons when he gets a chance.
Quote from: Kain on September 29, 2011, 06:23:47 PM
I switched one of my chars to priest a while ago and he has not recieved single point of honour or prestige since then. Is it meant to be so?
Even courtiers get it from their work, why not priests?
If you do a priest/ambassador, then you can gain some. Courts can also gain you some if you are a lord.
But indeed, not much. Less than I'd like. Might have something to do with the fact that honor dictates how many men you can field: those who fought a lot should be able to lead more than those who never did. Courtiers gain less, but they also can carry units. Priests can't, so they (maybe) shouldn't be able to increase their unit cap size?
Quote from: Kain on September 29, 2011, 06:23:47 PM
I switched one of my chars to priest a while ago and he has not recieved single point of honour or prestige since then. Is it meant to be so?
Even courtiers get it from their work, why not priests?
I would expect priests to be very prestigious--prestige is how the peasants view you, right? So preaching should get you lots of prestige.
On the other hand, honor is how nobles view, you, right? So those outside your faith probably don't care much.
Quote from: Chénier on September 29, 2011, 10:24:46 PM
If you do a priest/ambassador, then you can gain some. Courts can also gain you some if you are a lord.
But indeed, not much. Less than I'd like. Might have something to do with the fact that honor dictates how many men you can field: those who fought a lot should be able to lead more than those who never did. Courtiers gain less, but they also can carry units. Priests can't, so they (maybe) shouldn't be able to increase their unit cap size?
But honour and prestige is not only for unit cap-size. It gives you options such as what trades to change to later, and you cannot become an infiltrator later without it, as an example.
Not to mention that you lose honour and prestige by certain actions (such as stepping down too fast from positions). I believe my priest can be elected to the council right now, but if he loses 2 points of prestige somehow, he loses that possibility.
Should not a priest be quite prestigous and honourable? A man of education and scripture who does the lords work ;)
Quote from: Kain on September 29, 2011, 11:09:25 PM
But honour and prestige is not only for unit cap-size. It gives you options such as what trades to change to later, and you cannot become an infiltrator later without it, as an example.
Not to mention that you lose honour and prestige by certain actions (such as stepping down too fast from positions). I believe my priest can be elected to the council right now, but if he loses 2 points of prestige somehow, he loses that possibility.
Should not a priest be quite prestigous and honourable? A man of education and scripture who does the lords work ;)
You mean a pagan rabble-rouser who spends his time consorting with peasants, stirring up trouble and swaying the weak-minded to rise up against those who rightfully rule over them?
Or those who spread the True Faith, bolstering the commoners to their pious lords and casting down the heathen, heretical daimon-worshiping false lords ?
Such is in the eye of the beholder.
Quote from: egamma on September 29, 2011, 11:20:27 PM
You mean a pagan rabble-rouser who spends his time consorting with peasants, stirring up trouble and swaying the weak-minded to rise up against those who rightfully rule over them?
But it is the right hand men of whatever god they represent. They are the highest representatives of the lords, dukes and the kings faiths aswell.
But what you said was quite interesting, the part about them being prestigous but not very honourable.
does diplo action raise h/p? just do a p/d
Quote from: fodder on September 29, 2011, 11:44:50 PM
does diplo action raise h/p? just do a p/d
Well that is not the point.
A priest shouldn't have to engage in diplomatic work/battles/courtier work just to get honour/prestige so that he i.e can be elected to a council position.
Quote from: fodder on September 29, 2011, 11:44:50 PM
does diplo action raise h/p? just do a p/d
My priest doesn't have the h/p to become a diplomat. What now?
Get a real job? :P
Quote from: Indirik on September 30, 2011, 12:29:15 AM
Get a real job? :P
Says the man who plays the ruler of the biggest theocracy (and realm) in Dwilight ;)
I agree that it is a bit annoying that priests don't have any avenue to gain honor and prestige. The leader of Sanguis Astroism for quite a while was Constantine Meneldur. He became a priest about 2-3 RL months after the character was created. Since that time he has not gained a single point of honor or prestige. He's been at 19/4 for the past 3+ RL years. You'd think that being, essentially, the most powerful and influential noble on Dwilight, he'd have a chance to gain some honor and prestige....
Quote from: Indirik on September 30, 2011, 03:01:52 AM
I agree that it is a bit annoying that priests don't have any avenue to gain honor and prestige. The leader of Sanguis Astroism for quite a while was Constantine Meneldur. He became a priest about 2-3 RL months after the character was created. Since that time he has not gained a single point of honor or prestige. He's been at 19/4 for the past 3+ RL years. You'd think that being, essentially, the most powerful and influential noble on Dwilight, he'd have a chance to gain some honor and prestige....
Amen to that.
Can't you in the Dev Team poke Tom and ask him if this has merit? :)
Quote from: Kain on September 30, 2011, 06:44:13 AM
Amen to that.
Can't you in the Dev Team poke Tom and ask him if this has merit? :)
Let them finish the new estates, and come up with a suggestion on HOW they should earn honor or prestige, and post it to the feature requests.
Quote from: egamma on September 30, 2011, 02:22:57 PM
Let them finish the new estates, and come up with a suggestion on HOW they should earn honor or prestige, and post it to the feature requests.
Ok I'll start. How about a little prestige everytime a temple is upgraded? Or maybe at certain increments e.g. you get prestige if you expand it from 3 to 4, from 6 to 7 etc.
Also, prestige for for converting a noble in a private sermon?
Honour for getting bashed by commoners? (for being such a brave dude.)
Quote from: Shenron on October 01, 2011, 05:54:56 AM
Ok I'll start. How about a little prestige everytime a temple is upgraded? Or maybe at certain increments e.g. you get prestige if you expand it from 3 to 4, from 6 to 7 etc.
Also, prestige for for converting a noble in a private sermon?
Honour for getting bashed by commoners? (for being such a brave dude.)
Do you mean all the religions priests would get prestige for upgrading temple, because you don't need to be a priest to upgrade a temple. Also I don't know about you, but my characters would look down upon any noble that could be bested and beaten by peasants, not honour them.
Quote from: De-Legro on October 01, 2011, 07:44:02 AM
Do you mean all the religions priests would get prestige for upgrading temple, because you don't need to be a priest to upgrade a temple. Also I don't know about you, but my characters would look down upon any noble that could be bested and beaten by peasants, not honour them.
Oh I thought you had to be a priest to upgrade a temple... I haven't been in a religion for ages.
And yeah for the commoner beatings I'm just putting stuff out there. Anyone wanna help?
Number of conversions. Have it work like the current courtier support-of-realm honour/prestige gains, and just change the text to be support-of-religion. Then give bonuses for shrine building, temple building/expanding (let everyone in the religion get those too), noble conversions, and maybe RTO's (bringing new region to the faith = good?).
Quote from: Shenron on October 01, 2011, 09:05:38 AM
Oh I thought you had to be a priest to upgrade a temple... I haven't been in a religion for ages.
You need to be an Elder.
Quote from: Bedwyr on October 01, 2011, 09:25:24 AM
Number of conversions. Have it work like the current courtier support-of-realm honour/prestige gains, and just change the text to be support-of-religion. Then give bonuses for shrine building, temple building/expanding (let everyone in the religion get those too), noble conversions, and maybe RTO's (bringing new region to the faith = good?).
I like those ideas :)
Quote from: egamma on September 29, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
I would expect priests to be very prestigious--prestige is how the peasants view you, right? So preaching should get you lots of prestige.
On the other hand, honor is how nobles view, you, right? So those outside your faith probably don't care much.
Is that something you just made up?
here's how the wiki defines the two things:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Prestige
Quote from: Jens Namtrah on October 01, 2011, 01:58:22 PM
Is that something you just made up?
here's how the wiki defines the two things:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Prestige
Eh...I was over-simplifying things, I guess. But you can see that defending a city, something that the peasants of that city would care about, is listed as "prestige", while fighting bravely, something that your fellow nobles would care about, is "honor".
I must say, I quested Tom about this two days ago. I did it because my priest thought he would be a good ruler, but found himself without the prestige enough to that position.
First of all, I thought "well, why an ellected guy would need mechanical attributes?"
Ok, the In Game thing would surely need prestige to be known on the entire realm (as BM is the only place were we can find paper made instant messages), however, basing the opportunities for people only based on things that would be rised by time and doing the stupid-boring-common hack'n slash would only limit the good players. But ok, I know I'm defeated by the major of the people who do believe that all things above the fight are only side things.
After, I quested myself about why a priest would need prestige and honour. Than I realized that a priest would need prestige to boost his preachs. Be preached by an ordinary father would have not enough effect on you than be preached by Simon, Paul, or Jesus himself. The prestige is the directly line beetwen the subject and how his is well known on the land (and after the seas). More, the prestige would influence on the effects a preacher could develop with the peasants of the area. A prestigious one should not lose followers when he would start to influence them and tell how and on what think about, or on how many peasants would follow him on an Auto-da-fé against a pagan. The people of the land would not want to envy the lord of the land by persecuting one of his knights, or some of their food producers, altought a very prestigious priest can praticly dethrone the lord.
And, in the end, I thought about honour. Then, I thought about the history of the religions. The strongly religions on the world had or have strong armies. So I thought that, despite the desire of tom to do not let priests have soldiers, but I believe that, in a world governed by wars, why a priest would want to travel without some bodyguards?
Quote from: Alasteir on October 11, 2011, 05:57:17 AM
I must say, I quested Tom about this two days ago. I did it because my priest thought he would be a good ruler, but found himself without the prestige enough to that position.
First of all, I thought "well, why an ellected guy would need mechanical attributes?"
Ok, the In Game thing would surely need prestige to be known on the entire realm (as BM is the only place were we can find paper made instant messages), however, basing the opportunities for people only based on things that would be rised by time and doing the stupid-boring-common hack'n slash would only limit the good players. But ok, I know I'm defeated by the major of the people who do believe that all things above the fight are only side things.
After, I quested myself about why a priest would need prestige and honour. Than I realized that a priest would need prestige to boost his preachs. Be preached by an ordinary father would have not enough effect on you than be preached by Simon, Paul, or Jesus himself. The prestige is the directly line beetwen the subject and how his is well known on the land (and after the seas). More, the prestige would influence on the effects a preacher could develop with the peasants of the area. A prestigious one should not lose followers when he would start to influence them and tell how and on what think about, or on how many peasants would follow him on an Auto-da-fé against a pagan. The people of the land would not want to envy the lord of the land by persecuting one of his knights, or some of their food producers, altought a very prestigious priest can praticly dethrone the lord.
And, in the end, I thought about honour. Then, I thought about the history of the religions. The strongly religions on the world had or have strong armies. So I thought that, despite the desire of tom to do not let priests have soldiers, but I believe that, in a world governed by wars, why a priest would want to travel without some bodyguards?
The honor and prestige requirements reflect, I imagine, that you have to have some sort of name for yourself before you can run for something like ruler. However, this doesn't make sense to me. Respect and influence in this game are based almost entirely on what the other characters in the realm think of you, not upon raw mechanics (one of the things I like about it in fact). That's what wins you elections and determines how influential your character can be. In point of fact, I think that the crude mechanical requirement for positions should probably be removed, except perhaps in the rare event that someone goes into negatives. What purpose do they really serve?
they may just be simple devices to prevent a new character from being instantly placed in a position of power/influence (i.e., OOC powergaming with your friends, or reinstating a player via his new character when the old one dies)
the limits are really quite low for that stuff, and not hard to reach in a few weeks (which a new char has to wait before switching class anyway)
I've been holding courts with my Priest character, and have yet to gain a single honor or prestige point with it. Is this deactivated for Priests, or I have not done it enough?
The higher your H/P, the harder it is to gain H/P, especially through courts/civil/police work. I don't know what H/P your priest has, but it could be that you just haven't done enough of it yet. Also, there is still the random aspect to consider. you could be getting bad rolls.
Ah, ok. Good to know he still has the potentiality to gain the h/p. It is 33/10 btw.
How about making H/P for priest depend on the power of their religion?
You could say a Priest with higher prestige has more followers. But that also implies that when the flock dwindles, a priest should lose prestige.
Also, in a religion, the institute has great value: priests higher in the chain (especially Elders) should always be more prestigious, even if they would do less for the faith then a regular member, for instance.
So how about giving any given religion a total amount of H/P (based on amount of followers), which is then distributed across the Priests (or even regular members) of the religion?
For example, SA has 200,000 followers (wild guess). This grants the religion a total of 1000 prestige. The cake is then divided across all layers of followers. The Founder of course gets the biggest chunk, closely followed by higher (and lower) Elders. Regular priests get less, and Aspirants get barely anything. Active promotoring nobles of the religion (non-priests) get a small bonus to their H/P, through the regular system (getting H/P for constructing a temple, for instance)
This would also allow for more internal strife, because your position directly influenced your H/P. Total H/P for any given continent would be constant, but the division between several religions would fluctuate.
Quote from: Shizzle on October 11, 2011, 04:13:43 PM
How about making H/P for priest depend on the power of their religion?
(snip)
I think a system like that would make prestige H/P meaningful if it was:
-persistent
-personal
-gamewide
To elaborate:
Persistence: H/P is not something you lose suddenly. I could imagine a system where, rather than having a fixed amount of total H/P, a religion has an amount that it automatically distributes among its members each month. Then you don't suddenly get prestigious the day you join a religion, and people don't suddenly forget about you the day you leave it.
This does not mean some one-off event shouldn't trigger change. If a priests suddenly rejects his religion, it should entail a drop in H/P; but it's not as if he went back to square one. In fact, if someone joins a religion only to drop it one week later, he should be worse off then if he had not joined it.
Personal: H/P is given to the character, not to the position. This ties up with persistence. If you were a religious Elder for five years, you remain prestigious even after your retirement.
Gamewide: There is no reason why this would be tied only to religion. In-game titles such as Ambassador should yield similar benefits.
Good points.
Note: my above post is not a feature request, just a reflection upon a better H/P system for Priests :) The Devs are busy as it is :P
Quote from: Shizzle on October 11, 2011, 04:50:29 PM
Good points.
Note: my above post is not a feature request, just a reflection upon a better H/P system for Priests :) The Devs are busy as it is :P
Yeah, just brainstorming and hoping it's useful.
Quote from: vonGenf on October 11, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
Yeah, just brainstorming and hoping it's useful.
I find it compelling to redesign Battlemaster, adding 'improvements'. Almost as much fun as actually playing the game, at times :P
Quote from: Jens Namtrah on October 11, 2011, 07:26:26 AM
they may just be simple devices to prevent a new character from being instantly placed in a position of power/influence (i.e., OOC powergaming with your friends, or reinstating a player via his new character when the old one dies)
the limits are really quite low for that stuff, and not hard to reach in a few weeks (which a new char has to wait before switching class anyway)
Those were my thoughts.
Cheap to kill the enemy ruler, and to see him create a new character and get elected right back into office as if nothing ever happened.
Quote from: vonGenf on October 11, 2011, 04:30:53 PM
I think a system like that would make prestige H/P meaningful if it was:
-persistent
-personal
-gamewide
To elaborate:
Persistence: H/P is not something you lose suddenly. I could imagine a system where, rather than having a fixed amount of total H/P, a religion has an amount that it automatically distributes among its members each month. Then you don't suddenly get prestigious the day you join a religion, and people don't suddenly forget about you the day you leave it.
This does not mean some one-off event shouldn't trigger change. If a priests suddenly rejects his religion, it should entail a drop in H/P; but it's not as if he went back to square one. In fact, if someone joins a religion only to drop it one week later, he should be worse off then if he had not joined it.
Personal: H/P is given to the character, not to the position. This ties up with persistence. If you were a religious Elder for five years, you remain prestigious even after your retirement.
Gamewide: There is no reason why this would be tied only to religion. In-game titles such as Ambassador should yield similar benefits.
These are nice clarifications I think. I also wanna add that there needs to be some limit to how much someone can get from religion... just so we don't see character walking around with 100 prestige. Perhaps there can be a roof cap of something like 50 so once you reach you get no more benefit each month.
Also the size of your religion not only affects the amount of you get each monthy but also the roof cap e.g. a small religion (temples) would have a roof cap of like 5 or something? To increase this roof cap it should be kind of painful... maybe like 1/2 a prestige point per temple or something of equivalent difficulty measuring the amount of followers (peasant.)
The above would apply only to priests and moreso to elders.
Anyone knows if telling tales as a Hero gives Honor/Prestige as holding courts or doing civil, police, courtier or diplomat work? My character is a Priest/Hero, and could use some more Prestige.