I did something really stupid, as i did not know that the gold from automated caravans was taken from trade balance the moment there sent.
I set up these automated caravans, and when the bug was fixed, they all left at once taking a few k gold from the trade balance.
Now we all ended up with negative bonds.
I'd like to plea for two changes:
One, make negative bonds impossible( i geuss thats a bug anyway).
Two, as the gold sent in those caravans are already credit(taken from a trade balance, without any physical gold available, no taxes where collected), why not take it from the trade balance the moment it bought something? else automated caravans to buy stuff would be useless, or atleast for cities who need to buy from multiple regions, they will end up with huge trade balances in the plus one week and the other week with huge negative trade balances.
Also, if any of the two points is agreed upon, could the devs reverse the effects in Madina.
It would be easier than to call ealry taxes a few times(timed when the caravns return with there gold) to try to get into the plus again.
It's not a big deal, but you can imagine the huge impact this has on the game.
The problem would restore it's self but still destroy alot of units and seriously temporarily weaken the realm for a week atleast.
Below, tax report and caravan overview:
Region Tax Report (7 hours, 14 minutes ago)
The following taxes were collected in Madina. The tax rate for this collection was 20 % and the lords share was 25 %.
Regional income and expensesPeasants Taxes 1954 gold
Trade Balance -3967 gold
Buildings Upkeep - 10 gold
Militia Payment - 13 gold
Collectable Tax Gold -2036 gold
Estate of Size Peasants Tax Collected Knight Share Lord Share
Dene 5 % 1795 -102 gold -77 gold -25 gold
Kirino 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Bendix 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Groum 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Henry 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Abbot 5 % 1795 -102 gold -102 gold
Malificar 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Tarkus 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Laurence 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Beaumains 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Balzk 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Tyrus 9 % 3230 -184 gold -138 gold -46 gold
Region Totals -2044 gold -1457 gold -587 gold
Lord and Duke SharesLord Share -587 gold
Dukes Share - -587 gold
Lords Tax Income nothing
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Bol Madina
(limit 30 gold) return journey, carrying 150 gold Drowenton Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Madina Gardens Madina
(limit 30 gold) return journey, carrying 150 gold Maraba Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Tovabur Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lawataling Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Laraibina Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Panabuk Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Panafau Madina
(limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lugagun Madina
sell (limit 50 gold) return journey, carrying 250 gold Paisly Madina
buy (limit 40 gold) outward journey, carrying 200 gold Bol Bol
buy (limit 30 gold) outward journey, carrying 150 gold Drowenton Libba
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Madina Gardens Madina
buy (limit 30 gold) outward journey, carrying 150 gold Maraba Munawai
buy (limit 40 gold) outward journey, carrying 200 gold Tovabur Bol
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lawataling Lawataling
buy (limit 40 gold) outward journey, carrying 200 gold Laraibina Laraibina
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Panabuk Panabuk
buy (limit 40 gold) outward journey, carrying 200 gold Panafau Panafau
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lugagun Lugagun
sell (limit 50 gold) outward journey, carrying 700 bushels food Paisly Paisly
Ps i've not checked the number yet(anyone, please feel welcome) if everything is correct, what i did notice is that the tax report says it gave me -500+ bonds, while i really got -135.
So that must be a bug for sure.
PS2, someone posted a bug report here: http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=6281
also, there some other small bugs in this report, like the double minus after dukes share and nothing at lords income while it was less then nothing or a whole lot a debt.
wow. That looks insane. Never even heard about negative bonds.
I posted it in the Bugs section.
Duchy Totals -775 gold 0 gold -312 gold -34 gold
Duchy Totals 738 gold 0 gold 125 gold 14 gold
The crown has received -20 gold tax income thanks to a realm share of 10 %.
In addition, the realm made 155 gold from other sources (fines, etc.), bringing the crown's total income to 135 gold.
So not only did Madina ring in a massive negative debt - but all the gold collected from the rest of the Duchy of Madina to the Duke's share were put against the negative balance.
Then his share to the Ruler was negative, which removed the gold collected from the other Duchy :D
Finally removing bonds collected elsewhere as the sum Ruler's share before fines/etc was negative! (how do you even GIVE the ruler negative bones? - wait Abbot. you want ME to pay for YOU for running Madina? DAMN CAPITALISM!)
Anyways, obviously a few bugs in here lol.
And soon, all of your infrastructure should collapse and militia should disband. If you have any, that is.
Quote from: Chénier on October 01, 2011, 10:46:41 PM
And soon, all of your infrastructure should collapse and militia should disband. If you have any, that is.
Thankfully, Madina doesn't. Since it all broke down while the region was rogue.
Now even more bugs:
Your caravan to Bol has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Drowenton has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Madina Gardens has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Maraba has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Tovabur has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Lawataling has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Laraibina has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Panabuk has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Panafau has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Lugagun has returned home. Error: Invalid caravan type. This should never happen, please report it to the bugtracker.
Your caravan to Paisly has returned home. The trade profit of 250 gold is added to the region's trade balance.
Your caravan to Bol has arrived at its destination. There was no food on sale, so the merchants could make no deal.
Your caravan to Drowenton has reached Libba and is now moving towards Drowenton.
Your caravan to Madina Gardens has returned home. Unfortunately, it could not find any food to buy. 200 gold that are left are sent to you as bonds.
Your caravan to Maraba has reached Munawai and is now moving towards Mangai.
Your caravan to Tovabur has reached Bol and is now moving towards Tovabur.
Your caravan to Lawataling (on its return trip) has left Lawataling and is heading towards Madina Gardens.
Your caravan to Laraibina has arrived at its destination. There was no food on sale, so the merchants could make no deal.
Your caravan to Panabuk (on its return trip) has left Panabuk and is heading towards Madina Gardens.
Your caravan to Panafau has arrived at its destination. There was no food on sale, so the merchants could make no deal.
Your caravan to Lugagun (on its return trip) has left Lugagun and is heading towards Madina Gardens.
Your caravan to Paisly has arrived at its destination. 700 bushels of food were sold for a price of 50 gold.
Apparently the caravans cloned them selves.
Also i didn't got the 200 bonds, i got about 20 gold bonds, but not more then 25 gold was added to abbots bonds (from -135 to -112)
Also, i realized, i shouldn't gt bonds at all, as i am in my region i should get it in cash.
This is my current caravan report:
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Bol Bol
buy (limit 30 gold) outward journey, carrying 150 gold Drowenton Drowenton
buy (limit 30 gold) outward journey, carrying 150 gold Maraba Mangai
buy (limit 40 gold) outward journey, carrying 200 gold Tovabur Tovabur
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lawataling Madina Gardens
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Laraibina Laraibina
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Panabuk Madina Gardens
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Panafau Panafau
buy (limit 40 gold) return journey, carrying 200 gold Lugagun Madina Gardens
A quick glance at the numbers has also shown that there incorrect, much more gold as been taken from the trade balance then what the game is telling me that is coming back by caravans. i count 1700, while almost 4k had been taken.
Where is the gold now? I'd suggest a parallel universe.
On BT, it seems we didn't get gold or bonds, even though the tax reports said we would.
In Luria Nova and Pian en Luries I and others received bonds instead of cash in the tax day, even while being in our own duchies. That is a separate issue, I'd say.
no reason why you should receive gold, otherwise people will be using caravans as mobile time delayed bank.
Quote from: fodder on October 02, 2011, 07:26:39 AM
no reason why you should receive gold, otherwise people will be using caravans as mobile time delayed bank.
I really doubt it.
see, the way it would work, if unused gold is refunded as gold... is that you would send out a stupid trade that takes ages to reach (or at least a calculated distance) at a price that you know won't result in a transaction, whilst you move around to wherever fairly safely with an empty pocket instead of having a lump of gold that can be robbed, etc. or for that matter, go out to fight with minimal gold knowing in 7 days' time you'll get gold in hand to pay your troops and you won't get your gold stolen if captured (though... heh.. funny if your gold joins you in jail just in time to be robbed)
the whole thing shows there should be some sort of treasury for dealing with food as tax and food cycles are not synced.
This bug is now causing secondary effect.
Letter from Henry Elegant (9 hours, 16 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Grand Council of Madina" (14 recipients)
Grand Council !!
It looks like the whole continent is under the influence of dark magic. The Grand Doge Vallyn tried to help me by transferring bonds. But somehow the evil forces came to know about it and took it all. I don't want to waste your money, so please don't send me money till the God removes the dark magic.
See this:
***
Henry
Gold: 2
Bonds: -63
I am sorry Grand Doge, your bonds turned into negative and now the banker who is under the influence of evil forces is asking me to pay 63 gold !!
God save us.
Henry Elegant (Knight of Madina)
We cannot send bonds to anyone who recieved the negative bonds from their tax day.
Quote from: fodder on October 02, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
see, the way it would work, if unused gold is refunded as gold... is that you would send out a stupid trade that takes ages to reach (or at least a calculated distance) at a price that you know won't result in a transaction, whilst you move around to wherever fairly safely with an empty pocket instead of having a lump of gold that can be robbed, etc. or for that matter, go out to fight with minimal gold knowing in 7 days' time you'll get gold in hand to pay your troops and you won't get your gold stolen if captured (though... heh.. funny if your gold joins you in jail just in time to be robbed)
the whole thing shows there should be some sort of treasury for dealing with food as tax and food cycles are not synced.
Sending out a manual caravan takes gold from the lord's pocket; returning caravans give him back bonds.
Quote from: fodder on October 02, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
see, the way it would work, if unused gold is refunded as gold... is that you would send out a stupid trade that takes ages to reach (or at least a calculated distance) at a price that you know won't result in a transaction, whilst you move around to wherever fairly safely with an empty pocket instead of having a lump of gold that can be robbed, etc. or for that matter, go out to fight with minimal gold knowing in 7 days' time you'll get gold in hand to pay your troops and you won't get your gold stolen if captured (though... heh.. funny if your gold joins you in jail just in time to be robbed)
the whole thing shows there should be some sort of treasury for dealing with food as tax and food cycles are not synced.
Still doubt it a helluva lot.
Also dont think it would be fair on the rest of the continent who experienced bugs to have just one realm see treatment. Sorry Madina but as someone (A Madinian I do believe) said - Testing for a reason :(
Quote from: egamma on October 02, 2011, 09:14:11 PM
Sending out a manual caravan takes gold from the lord's pocket; returning caravans give him back bonds.
yes.. that's the whole point of why that's the case. that is... i was commenting on
Quote"Your caravan to Madina Gardens has returned home. Unfortunately, it could not find any food to buy. 200 gold that are left are sent to you as bonds."
"Also i didn't got the 200 bonds, i got about 20 gold bonds, but not more then 25 gold was added to abbots bonds (from -135 to -112)
Also, i realized, i shouldn't gt bonds at all, as i am in my region i should get it in cash."
different issue to the whole negative bond thing, which basically shouldn't happen at all.
Quote from: Ramiel on October 02, 2011, 09:17:55 PM
Still doubt it a helluva lot.
Also dont think it would be fair on the rest of the continent who experienced bugs to have just one realm see treatment. Sorry Madina but as someone (A Madinian I do believe) said - Testing for a reason :(
The rest of the Island isn't fighting a war - a few missed bonds isn't going to destroy D'Hara.
3000gp missing from Madina Coffers? That's a whole nother issue especially when you consider that Madina supports 1/3 of our nobles - they lose their units because of having -150 gp in bonds cause we can't send them money to pay. . . significantly different outcome than if we were bumming around fighting monsters like the rest of the Continent.
You need to sell more food to D'Hara to compensate!
:P
And while Madina is poor now, shouldn't every rural be richer than it ought to be?
Quote from: Phellan on October 02, 2011, 09:37:02 PM
The rest of the Island isn't fighting a war - a few missed bonds isn't going to destroy D'Hara.
3000gp missing from Madina Coffers? That's a whole nother issue especially when you consider that Madina supports 1/3 of our nobles - they lose their units because of having -150 gp in bonds cause we can't send them money to pay. . . significantly different outcome than if we were bumming around fighting monsters like the rest of the Continent.
While I empathize with the whole problem that negative bonds are causing as a bug that you can't send them gold, I think that this whole thing isn't game mechanics fault. The Duke of Madina made a bad choice by trying to purchase more food than their city could conceivably pay for. Also, unless the caravans aren't more bugged when returning, all of the gold should be returned to Madina for a very large income in the next tax so I see this mostly working itself out.
Also, I believe it is understood by most players of this game that we are playing a game in constant beta, and bugs happen. Unless they are so severe to extremely cause adverse gameplay it usually isn't reset or modified as far as I am aware.
As far as fighting a war goes, in the end if this causes 5 days of not having gold on hand for troops at max you're going to lose what, a single region? maybe two, but very slim chance in the short term. Then, since they'll have likely overextended then you just push in and take back a region or two in response. For the most part, I don't see a single missed tax causing downright devastation of a realm at least in most wars I've been a part of.
Also, fighting monsters on Dwilight, if you haven't had to deal with it for a while is very very difficult at times and can be more devestating than a war when you are overrun on multiple sides by huge monsters. While this isn't "currently" the case for my realm on Dwilight it has been in the past, and I can definitely see that tehre are realms out there that monster fighting can be very difficult.
Quote from: Phellan on October 02, 2011, 09:37:02 PM
The rest of the Island isn't fighting a war - a few missed bonds isn't going to destroy D'Hara.
3000gp missing from Madina Coffers? That's a whole nother issue especially when you consider that Madina supports 1/3 of our nobles - they lose their units because of having -150 gp in bonds cause we can't send them money to pay. . . significantly different outcome than if we were bumming around fighting monsters like the rest of the Continent.
Excuse me?
A few missed taxes up here in PeL have actually caused us a significant problem - for starters it gave the Hordes 3 of our regions!
Now to you that might be Bumming around, but to some of us it IS a war until we can get into a situation where we can go off wasting our gold against other humans.
You have no idea how bad a situation PeL (and to extent LN) is actually in considerations of its geography.
Madina is fighting one little petty war that will blow over soon and again their will be peace in Madina.
Luria on the other hand faces Spawn Points of the Divide Mountains, Palm Sea, Desert of Silhouettes and Axewild, the area of Sallowtown, the Flow Penisular, etc. Its a constant struggle.
By rights all it would take is for the over 20k CS hordes to break through our barriers (which they have done somewhat) and unite in Askileon Purliues to take out Askileon itself.
Madina on the other hand: The Duke frakked up as did a few bugs - so Human error, all they need to do is hold the Tower. They dont have 20k + sitting on their borders (and in) that has multiple access points.
Yes, Luria has it far worse than silly Madina. And if you want to get technical, D'hara through sheer human arrogance has it much worse than the rest of the continent combined! Specially if they were to lose all those Food suppliers ;)
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 02, 2011, 11:00:04 PM
Also, fighting monsters on Dwilight, if you haven't had to deal with it for a while is very very difficult at times and can be more devestating than a war when you are overrun on multiple sides by huge monsters. While this isn't "currently" the case for my realm on Dwilight it has been in the past, and I can definitely see that tehre are realms out there that monster fighting can be very difficult.
Feel free to come lend us a sword or two ;)
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 02, 2011, 11:00:04 PM
While I empathize with the whole problem that negative bonds are causing as a bug that you can't send them gold, I think that this whole thing isn't game mechanics fault. The Duke of Madina made a bad choice by trying to purchase more food than their city could conceivably pay for. Also, unless the caravans aren't more bugged when returning, all of the gold should be returned to Madina for a very large income in the next tax so I see this mostly working itself out.
Also, I believe it is understood by most players of this game that we are playing a game in constant beta, and bugs happen. Unless they are so severe to extremely cause adverse gameplay it usually isn't reset or modified as far as I am aware.
As far as fighting a war goes, in the end if this causes 5 days of not having gold on hand for troops at max you're going to lose what, a single region? maybe two, but very slim chance in the short term. Then, since they'll have likely overextended then you just push in and take back a region or two in response. For the most part, I don't see a single missed tax causing downright devastation of a realm at least in most wars I've been a part of.
Also, fighting monsters on Dwilight, if you haven't had to deal with it for a while is very very difficult at times and can be more devestating than a war when you are overrun on multiple sides by huge monsters. While this isn't "currently" the case for my realm on Dwilight it has been in the past, and I can definitely see that tehre are realms out there that monster fighting can be very difficult.
While I agree that it sounds like things will fix themselves with the next tax, I'm appalled by what you have stated in the last two paragraphs. Have you even looked at the map? Are you even aware of the war they are fighting?
For Aurvandil to attack any of Madina's regions, they have to pass through Madina's capital, Tower Fatmilak. If the tower fails, it's GG for Madina. Just like it would be GG for Aurvandil if Candiels failed.
You really should inform yourself before telling people that they are overreacting and that it's no big deal. They can't "overextend" themselves when both enemy capitals are adjacent to each other. There's a huge different between the Madina war and having large hordes of monsters in your peripheral rurals 10 regions away from your capital.
Quote from: Ramiel on October 02, 2011, 11:16:43 PM
By rights all it would take is for the over 20k CS hordes to break through our barriers (which they have done somewhat) and unite in Askileon Purliues to take out Askileon itself.
Madina on the other hand: The Duke frakked up as did a few bugs - so Human error, all they need to do is hold the Tower. They dont have 20k + sitting on their borders (and in) that has multiple access points.
Yes, Luria has it far worse than silly Madina. And if you want to get technical, D'hara through sheer human arrogance has it much worse than the rest of the continent combined! Specially if they were to lose all those Food suppliers ;)
As I said, Pian en Luries risks losing peripheral regions. Madina risks losing their capital and therefore their chokepoint defending the rest of their lands from Aurvandil.
Not in the least comparable. Sorry, but your hordes don't mean squat. They don't threaten total annihilation of your realm.
"risks losing peripheral regions"
Ahh I forgot... Madinian... wouldnt expect you to understand... actually no... I would expect you to understand exactly what loosing rurals mean. After all you lost a few cities to Starvation in your time havent you...
If the Capital of Madina is the tower then.... no still tough luck.
Its testing Island, its the same damn risks. And as someone said - will fix itself in the end.
Personally the idea of launching a campaign during Autumn and Winter is appalling in itself... but I forget... Madina doesnt have the crazy hordes Luria faces in their 'peripheral regions'.
Quote from: Ramiel on October 02, 2011, 11:26:21 PM
"risks losing peripheral regions"
Ahh I forgot... Madinian... wouldnt expect you to understand... actually no... I would expect you to understand exactly what loosing rurals mean. After all you lost a few cities to Starvation in your time havent you...
If the Capital of Madina is the tower then.... no still tough luck.
Its testing Island, its the same damn risks. And as someone said - will fix itself in the end.
Personally the idea of launching a campaign during Autumn and Winter is appalling in itself... but I forget... Madina doesnt have the crazy hordes Luria faces in their 'peripheral regions'.
You have so many rurals that you aren't dependent on any single one.
And hell, we only have 2 rurals. We can manage 3 cities most of the times, and it has been ages since any city other than Port Nebel has revolted. You are close enough to actually trade with the massive farm realms that are to your north. Why don't you, if a few monsters is all it takes to threaten your food supply?
Don't go expecting pity from me because you find your realm doesn't have enough food.
Quote from: Chénier on October 02, 2011, 11:38:05 PM
You have so many rurals that you aren't dependent on any single one.
And hell, we only have 2 rurals. We can manage 3 cities most of the times, and it has been ages since any city other than Port Nebel has revolted. You are close enough to actually trade with the massive farm realms that are to your north. Why don't you, if a few monsters is all it takes to threaten your food supply?
Don't go expecting pity from me because you find your realm doesn't have enough food.
The realm as a whole? No. Poryatown? Yes. And frankly I need Poryatown alive so I can squeeze its Duke for all its money to buy more troops to push back the abominations.
So Askileon is always in supply, Poryatown relies on Dantooine and Lupa Lapu.
However during Winter Askileon needs CT and Santoo as well.
IIRC, our cities are bigger than yours. The only reason you want Madina to get treatment instead of the whole continent is so you has food for the winter ;)
Quote from: Ramiel on October 02, 2011, 11:42:43 PM
The realm as a whole? No. Poryatown? Yes. And frankly I need Poryatown alive so I can squeeze its Duke for all its money to buy more troops to push back the abominations.
So Askileon is always in supply, Poryatown relies on Dantooine and Lupa Lapu.
However during Winter Askileon needs CT and Santoo as well.
IIRC, our cities are bigger than yours. The only reason you want Madina to get treatment instead of the whole continent is so you has food for the winter ;)
I'm not saying it should get treatment, I said it will likely fix itself next tax.
However, I do think that it's a very risky spot to be in, way more dangerous than what anyone else is facing right now.
Only 2 of your 4 cities are bigger than ours. The other two are smaller. And had we not starved badly this last winter, they would have been significantly smaller. Still, they are quite smaller regardless.
Point is, your monsters are only a threat to you being huge. They don't threaten your survival, not by a long shot. Madina's enemy does threaten their survival. You said it yourself: you need the resources to push back the monsters. As in, farther away, and to continue your expansion. The monsters don't threaten the Lurias in any way, they are just an obstacle to your growth.
Quote from: Chénier on October 02, 2011, 11:51:09 PM
I'm not saying it should get treatment, I said it will likely fix itself next tax.
However, I do think that it's a very risky spot to be in, way more dangerous than what anyone else is facing right now.
It may be a risky spot to be in, and I understand that, but it doesn't mean that it can't be fixed and dealt with. I mean, shouldn't your troop leaders already have enough money on hand to pay their men for a week or two anyway in the field? Also, if they are at home in the defensive they can stay for a long time with a very low morale and still defend well enough. Pian en Luries may have a lot of regions but it literally fights for survival (usually) against the monsters. If every single battle isn't always won, it is a guaranteed starvation in the cities during winter which means the next year we are weaker and will lose more regions. It isn't about expansion because we have simply been trying to hold onto our lands during and after winter. Our expansion outside of winter is simply to try and hopefully offset all of our winter losses.
Madina is defending a choke point which is a lot easier than being surrounded.
Quote from: Ramiel on October 02, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
Feel free to come lend us a sword or two ;)
What? My cavalry sitting in the capitol doing nothing isn't helpful?
The Lurias are, the way I see it, bigger than ever. So I consider that they could shrink some and still be fine. Regardless...
So all of the negative bonds were voided...
But, won't that mean double gold for Madina? 'cause wasn't that gold that was deducted from the people of Madina already paid to the rurals?
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 07:07:15 AM
The Lurias are, the way I see it, bigger than ever. So I consider that they could shrink some and still be fine. Regardless...
So all of the negative bonds were voided...
But, won't that mean double gold for Madina? 'cause wasn't that gold that was deducted from the people of Madina already paid to the rurals?
We'll see. Abbot reported a whole bunch of bugs with the Caravans too, which are skewing the tax results - gold is disappearing and appearing - it will take next week and we can see what the results look like, it could be negative again even for all we know.
I mean - we are net exporting food to Paisly by huge amounts, and at a profit. In theory there is no way Madina could have had "negative" gold.
Also, keep in mind the negative gold went in other places too - as the Ruler it even caused me to lose tax gold - that money is not coming back, as it was "collected" from last week, but was reduced by the negative cash collected.
All sorts of weird bugs. But it'll work out. We can pay troops for this week with the negative bonds gone, which is fine all we needed. The rest can be debugged as we go. Welcome to testing and all that :P
at first i thought the problem with resolve it's self, but the 3 k missing won't come back.
Even more gold is lost because people tried to send bonds to those effected, those bonds vanished.
I found it a silly discusion to talk about who gets a fix and who not, everyone whos gold has diapeared, especially in such large numbers should get it returned.
It's a testing island, but major bugs like this always had a fix.
I don't see why not now.
Again the ~3k is gone, it won't come back via caravans.
Some caravans did return some bonds but it was all lost due to the negative bonds bug(the balance of bonds didn't change at all, added bonds or gold disappeared).
Also something else: for other players who don't read this forum, we should include some instructions of how these caravans work, i didn't know they took gold from the trade balance, to be honest i didn't even think of what they'd do, perhaps i assumed the gold was taken as soon as the deal was made.
Food sales to Paisly were recent, though, did any have the time to return?
Also, yea, a lot of people lost gold. But didn't everyone aligned to these rural regions *gain* an equal amount of gold?
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 07:07:15 AM
But, won't that mean double gold for Madina? 'cause wasn't that gold that was deducted from the people of Madina already paid to the rurals?
No, ~3k is gone.
Some of the caravans did make a successful deal, but where talking of 100/200 gold in total.
If the devs need any aditional information or me to sum up the 'damage', i will get back to them later this week.
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 08:19:45 AM
Food sales to Paisly were recent, though, did any have the time to return?
Also, yea, a lot of people lost gold. But didn't everyone aligned to these rural regions *gain* an equal amount of gold?
There is nothing wrong with the caravan system selling food, i am not sure if that gold also disapeared however.
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 08:19:45 AM
Food sales to Paisly were recent, though, did any have the time to return?
Also, yea, a lot of people lost gold. But didn't everyone aligned to these rural regions *gain* an equal amount of gold?
We're not sure yet.
Madina OWED money to those caravans - but those caravans did not necessarily reach the destination for the tax week - so a shipment of 120gp to Panabuk did not show up in Panabuk's tax report, but showed up as -120gp to the Madina trade balance.
So, they may or may NOT balance out. . . depends on how it works? And keep in mind some caravans with gold were from the old system and those just disappeared.
Hopefully once it's sorted out and gold is where it's suppose to be trade wise we can have a better picture what happened.
From the wiki
"Tom doesn't manually intervene (we fix bugs, but not the results of bugs) unless the game is seriously unbalanced by a bug."
So you will just have to wait and see. I can recall other bugs of a similar scale that we just had to play through, sometimes there just isn't the info to fix it. For example I'm not sure the game would record how much gold everyone had before the tax for it to be restored, so in that case what should Tom do, just award everyone an average?
Pian En Luries lost thousands of bushels testing the automatic caravans when they were implemented, those are just the breaks.
Chénier Luria is larger then it has been in the recent past, but for all you know this is a reckless plan to try and shore up our food supply by grabbing a few food producing regions before winter; regions we may have little hope to hold. If our regions were taking to long to repopulate it might just provide enough food to keep the cities fed.
Quote from: Nosferatus on October 03, 2011, 08:19:54 AM
No, ~3k is gone.
Some of the caravans did make a successful deal, but where talking of 100/200 gold in total.
If the devs need any aditional information or me to sum up the 'damage', i will get back to them later this week.
The experiance we have had in Luria was those carvans that seemed paused until Anaris gave them a gentle shove where the ones that experienced bugs and we got errors when they arrived. I can only go by the experience of my brother, but the food he had in that caravan seems lost. Like I said we are used to it by now, over the past month or so we have lost a fair bit of food playing with the automatic caravans. When I was Lord of AP, I saw in one turn 2k of food arrive from the rurals, the message was it was places in the warehouses, but it never arrived.
No matter how much Chénier theories about a realm in which he has little real knowledge of the day to day conditions, those kind of loses hurt. It is compounded by human error as well, Monsters have spawned in rural regions that decided to store their harvest in there own regions rather then send them on to the cities, so they are now feeding them.
Quote from: De-Legro on October 03, 2011, 01:13:10 PM
So you will just have to wait and see. I can recall other bugs of a similar scale that we just had to play through, sometimes there just isn't the info to fix it. For example I'm not sure the game would record how much gold everyone had before the tax for it to be restored, so in that case what should Tom do, just award everyone an average?
I took note of how many negative bonds there were before I wiped them out; if Nosferatus finds that the money does, indeed, reappear in the next tax, I know exactly how much to reduce it by to ensure that they don't get double gold.
Quote from: Anaris on October 03, 2011, 02:51:30 PM
I took note of how many negative bonds there were before I wiped them out; if Nosferatus finds that the money does, indeed, reappear in the next tax, I know exactly how much to reduce it by to ensure that they don't get double gold.
You, we also know how much the region made in negative bonds. But, much obliged regardless.
As for Luria - monster groups like that have been the norm for years on Dwilight. Hurt your rurals, yup. Be a nuisence, yup. Keeps away TMP. Yup. We use to lose rurals in winters all the time. Only stopped once they tweaked the code and once we secured the Tower.
Archer Heavy Armies are the way to go when you're playing with Monsters. The lack of Overkill really finishes them off.
Indeed. Considering TMP can be just as paralyzing as a huge monster horde, I'm not impressed. The Lurians aren't pioneer realms anymore, they have established cities with great gold outputs, many RCs, and all the equipment they need.
Not to mention that they conveniently split in half, increasing tax tolerance and reducing travel times.
So yea, no pity for the Lurians. They don't have it handed over on a silver plate, but this is Dwilight, and as such they are having it pretty good. If you wanted a realm where you don't have to worry about rogues, don't play on Dwilight.
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 05:59:21 PM
but this is Dwilight, and as such they are having it pretty good. If you wanted a realm where you don't have to worry about rogues, don't play on Dwilight.
Or in D'Hara ;) But just watch your cities starve every few weeks :D
Though, with the referendum I just got back, I think D'Hara has that problem solved so long as they keep Barca in line.
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 05:59:21 PM
Indeed. Considering TMP can be just as paralyzing as a huge monster horde, I'm not impressed. The Lurians aren't pioneer realms anymore, they have established cities with great gold outputs, many RCs, and all the equipment they need.
Not to mention that they conveniently split in half, increasing tax tolerance and reducing travel times.
So yea, no pity for the Lurians. They don't have it handed over on a silver plate, but this is Dwilight, and as such they are having it pretty good. If you wanted a realm where you don't have to worry about rogues, don't play on Dwilight.
Pity? We don't need or want pity really. I think we were just using it as an example of how bugs can really mess up some realms but we've all learned to deal with it as we are playing in a testing island.
Plus, the Lurians are having a great time. I mean we've got to have some free time off between all of the civil wars and rebellions which seem to be rampant here.
Quote from: Phellan on October 03, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
Or in D'Hara ;) But just watch your cities starve every few weeks :D
Though, with the referendum I just got back, I think D'Hara has that problem solved so long as they keep Barca in line.
As we expand east, we've seen hordes! Massive 40-best hordes have attack Qubel! *gasp*!
As for food, indeed, it seems as if all of our neighbours are suddenly exporting four times as much food as they used to. Rot is becoming a concern and we are planning how to best invest in our warehouses.
Quote from: Chénier on October 03, 2011, 08:54:28 PM
As we expand east, we've seen hordes! Massive 40-best hordes have attack Qubel! *gasp*!
As for food, indeed, it seems as if all of our neighbours are suddenly exporting four times as much food as they used to. Rot is becoming a concern and we are planning how to best invest in our warehouses.
The south had a couple of "above average" or maybe "exceptional" harvests, and it's the fall.
Quote from: Phellan on October 03, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
Though, with the referendum I just got back, I think D'Hara has that problem solved so long as they keep Barca in line.
And as long as Abbot doesn't mess up again with the food, Halicos and the other Lords will continue to sell to him :)
Quote from: egamma on October 03, 2011, 09:00:32 PM
The south had a couple of "above average" or maybe "exceptional" harvests, and it's the fall.
Yeah, Fatmilak had 500+ bushels every harvest I think and all the other regions seemed to have a lot more than usual too. Halicos has been investing, but it usually doesn't mean that much food.
Quote from: egamma on October 03, 2011, 09:00:32 PM
The south had a couple of "above average" or maybe "exceptional" harvests, and it's the fall.
It's winter now!
QuoteRot is becoming a concern and we are planning how to best invest in our warehouses.
Yeah, what madness is this, having these luxury problems!
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 03, 2011, 08:35:15 PM
Pity? We don't need or want pity really. I think we were just using it as an example of how bugs can really mess up some realms but we've all learned to deal with it as we are playing in a testing island.
Plus, the Lurians are having a great time. I mean we've got to have some free time off between all of the civil wars and rebellions which seem to be rampant here.
Exactly my point. All realms on Dwilight have struggles of some sort, and when bugs hit it can really affect the realm. My main point was that unless you actually play in the realm and know what is going on, all you are doing is engaging in is speculation, commonly known as theory craft. It works about as well in BM as in any other game, that is pretty damn poorly.
Quote from: Telrunya on October 03, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
Yeah, what madness is this, having these luxury problems!
I could simply carry 1000 of those bushels in my caravans--the mice don't like climbing the wagons to eat, I guess. It'll probably be cheaper than building 2 warehouses, too.
Remember that you can't sell food back to the region you bought it in. :)
i'm guessing food won't rot if you place them manually to as a sell offer. though it would be funny if it does.. XD
obviously completely and totally gaming the system.
Placing a sell offer does not "reserve" food. i.e., it does not take it out of the warehouse and set it aside solely for trade purposes. The food can still be eaten, stolen, burned, and rot.
interesting... totally different from how it works for plonking gold down for buying food.
why?
Quote from: fodder on October 04, 2011, 06:09:20 PM
interesting... totally different from how it works for plonking gold down for buying food.
why?
you are SENDING the gold. If you were to SEND the food, then it wouldn't rot. If you instead put the food up for sale, or place an open buy order, then the food just sits in your warehouse.
eh... you aren't sending the gold anywhere. you are placing the gold in your own region so someone pops around to sell food.
just like you are "placing" the food in your own region so someone pops around to buy them.
so why the difference? and i don't mean gaming the rotting business...
Dunno. But it's a good question.
Quote from: fodder on October 04, 2011, 06:15:07 PM
eh... you aren't sending the gold anywhere. you are placing the gold in your own region so someone pops around to sell food.
just like you are "placing" the food in your own region so someone pops around to buy them.
so why the difference? and i don't mean gaming the rotting business...
Ah, I thought you were talking about sending a caravan with gold to buy food.
Don't forget, there are manual and automatic buy offers. Manual takes gold from your pock. If you cancel (withdraw) the manual buy, you get 80% back (or some similar number). Automatic buy relies on your trade balance.
Quote from: Indirik on October 04, 2011, 05:09:39 PM
Placing a sell offer does not "reserve" food. i.e., it does not take it out of the warehouse and set it aside solely for trade purposes. The food can still be eaten, stolen, burned, and rot.
Furthermore, someone else might just come and buy that food! 8)
obviously (if it worked the way i thought it worked) you'll be placing the food at stupid prices.
Quote from: fodder on October 05, 2011, 08:21:51 PM
obviously (if it worked the way i thought it worked) you'll be placing the food at stupid prices.
If you do that, 1) you'll be unable to buy back significant sums at any one time, and 2) a good portion of the gold you will use will be shared with your knights.
Less than ideal.
Tim:
1200 gold has been returned in bonds via caravans.
You can do the math if we received double gold or not.
I will keep counting, i expect a few more caravans to arive, perhaps another 600 gold.
Quote from: Chénier on October 05, 2011, 09:17:23 PM
If you do that, 1) you'll be unable to buy back significant sums at any one time, and 2) a good portion of the gold you will use will be shared with your knights.
Less than ideal.
eh.. what on earth are you talking about.
silly prices, so no one will be buying it. ever. no gold involved at all.
the idea was that, just like manual offer to buy food, where you plonk down gold, you can plonk food down and then cancel it at a later date.
in any case it's all rather immaterial, because sticking food on sale doesn't work the same way as sticking gold down to buy food. presumably that's the reason why.
Quote from: fodder on October 06, 2011, 10:10:52 AM
eh.. what on earth are you talking about.
silly prices, so no one will be buying it. ever. no gold involved at all.
the idea was that, just like manual offer to buy food, where you plonk down gold, you can plonk food down and then cancel it at a later date.
in any case it's all rather immaterial, because sticking food on sale doesn't work the same way as sticking gold down to buy food. presumably that's the reason why.
You can cancel the deal? Hmmm... hadn't considered that.
Just goes to show that I *never* use that option. I know it steals a good sum of your gold if you cancel a buy offer though.
i also ntoiced a great way to gain a good extra share of gold as lord, stealing it from your knights share:
just send caravans to buy food somewhere where you know no food will be bought.
The gold is taken from the trade balance and added to you as bonds!
A really sneaky way to steal from your own knights without anyone knowing. ;)
When cancelling a buy offer in your region, you lose 10% or so from those filthy merchants (One day they will rule the world!) yeah.
Quote from: Nosferatus on October 06, 2011, 08:17:07 PM
i also ntoiced a great way to gain a good extra share of gold as lord, stealing it from your knights share:
just send caravans to buy food somewhere where you know no food will be bought.
The gold is taken from the trade balance and added to you as bonds!
A really sneaky way to steal from your own knights without anyone knowing. ;)
Manual caravans take gold from your pockets, not the trade balance. And I assume that automatic caravans bring the gold back to the trade balance, not your pockets, but I've never bothered with that bugfest so I can't say.
Quote from: Nosferatus on October 06, 2011, 08:17:07 PM
i also ntoiced a great way to gain a good extra share of gold as lord, stealing it from your knights share:
just send caravans to buy food somewhere where you know no food will be bought.
The gold is taken from the trade balance and added to you as bonds!
A really sneaky way to steal from your own knights without anyone knowing. ;)
Like Chenier says, this is incorrect. manual buys use gold, and return bonds--they are an effective way to get rid of your gold in-pocket if your men's morale drops to 0% and will rob you next turn. automatic sell offers affect your trade balance only.
Quote from: egamma on October 07, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
Like Chenier says, this is incorrect. manual buys use gold, and return bonds--they are an effective way to get rid of your gold in-pocket if your men's morale drops to 0% and will rob you next turn. automatic sell offers affect your trade balance only.
Sounds pretty close to an exploit, but then again very hard to prove you sent those caravans out just to save your gold. If people make use of that too often, it probably will result in having to be in your region to interact with caravans.
Quote from: De-Legro on October 08, 2011, 03:41:34 AM
Sounds pretty close to an exploit, but then again very hard to prove you sent those caravans out just to save your gold. If people make use of that too often, it probably will result in having to be in your region to interact with caravans.
yea... but I don't see that as being serious enough to warrant such a restriction. Only lords can do this, and only if they are stationnary, and morale dropping to 0% for a reason other than the unit not being paid is rather rare.
Plus you still lose your unit and honor.
Erm, just wondering. Barca hasn't gotten tax in eight days now. The last tax we got was two days before the announced fix of this. I'm just wondering did the fix break something or should I start filing a bug report?
Thanks,
Finn.
Quote from: Carna on October 09, 2011, 06:39:20 AM
Erm, just wondering. Barca hasn't gotten tax in eight days now. The last tax we got was two days before the announced fix of this. I'm just wondering did the fix break something or should I start filing a bug report?
Thanks,
Finn.
D'Hara just got what appeared to be a functionnal tax, following a late dysfunctionnal one from yesterday.
No taxes in Luria Nova.
None in Fheuv'n either.
Quote from: Chénier on October 09, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
D'Hara just got what appeared to be a functionnal tax, following a late dysfunctionnal one from yesterday.
I'm rich! I'm rich! ;D
(no, no bug, just clever estate/tax rate optimization plus a nice trade balance)
Thanks devs!
bloody hell, that's only 200 gold....
Quote from: fodder on October 09, 2011, 08:58:37 AM
bloody hell, that's only 200 gold....
Why do you think I want to be duke (or whatever) of the lighthouse? :P
I made more than all the other lords of D'Hara, excluding dukes. Which, I know, is a big exclusion.
Quote from: egamma on October 10, 2011, 06:48:10 PM
Why do you think I want to be duke (or whatever) of the lighthouse? :P
I made more than all the other lords of D'Hara, excluding dukes. Which, I know, is a big exclusion.
You made about as much gold as me, the duke of Paisly, so....
Yea, the Lighthouse would be a bitchin' place to be lord of, come to think of it.
But Paisly imported a lot. If that stops due too big reserves, her income should increase by a lot. And the Dukes got lucky the Ruler Share was reset to 0% :)
Quote from: Telrunya on October 10, 2011, 07:31:07 PM
But Paisly imported a lot. If that stops due too big reserves, her income should increase by a lot. And the Dukes got lucky the Ruler Share was reset to 0% :)
Ruler is lucky he gets an estate share! ;)
If someone wants to be rich, they need to get themselves elected ruler *and* lord of the lighthouse.
Yeah how lucky I am with my -7 gold share, lousy food-importing Dukes ;)
Quote from: Telrunya on October 10, 2011, 08:50:38 PM
Yeah how lucky I am with my -7 gold share, lousy food-importing Dukes ;)
:)
Think of the average historical income, then! ;D
to be dead honest, i'd rather be lord of madina gardens than the lord of madina, for example. being duke is bonus.
ps.. ruler and lord of light house? probably result = you are bugged! because you ain't the duke too... that said.. the ruler can probably make himself duke right away... unlike the poor bastard elsewhere as ruler of a mountain region XD
Yeah, unless the Ruler can create a Duchy out of a Lordless Region (And thereby avoiding having to make the Lord the Duke right away), it wouldn't work I guess. (Or it happens automatically when elected)
Quote from: fodder on October 10, 2011, 09:11:31 PM
to be dead honest, i'd rather be lord of madina gardens than the lord of madina, for example. being duke is bonus.
ps.. ruler and lord of light house? probably result = you are bugged! because you ain't the duke too... that said.. the ruler can probably make himself duke right away... unlike the poor bastard elsewhere as ruler of a mountain region XD
I dunno, Madina made a NICE profit. . . I think Abbot has the right idea. He has a small estate but all his knights have a HUGE estate - so he just taxes them for it . . .his share was 3-4x higher than anyone elses pretty much.
Well, you can be made duke of it.
But it's all tricky to do, which is what I like the least about the new estates system: how the ruler fits in it all.
You should be able to create a duchy from a lordless C/T/S imo.
i miswrote it.. there's a poor bastard out there who's ruler and lord of mountain region according to bugtracker.. XD
elections probably need to be overhauled.
--
there was a reason why my deleted character sort of prefer candiels field rather than candiels. except it wouldn't have worked back then..
Abbot made good profit indeed, about 700 cash.
But just as easily as it apears it is gone again...
How could that be? ::)
I think he should just quite freelancing whores and get some slaves instead.
Its been seven days as of the latest sunrise and Barca has again not collected its taxes. Will taxes be collected every ten days now or is this an ongoing problem?
Finn.
odd... d'hara got tax yesterday and 9 days ago
nowt clue if d'hara called early tax for the most recent one.
PeL's been having the same problem. I think we finally got taxes nine days after the last one. Had the extra gold and all, so it wasn't really a big problem, just weird.
Madina got our tax 8 days after the last one.
It was a mix up with the counter it appears. . . seems good at the moment.
it can be a problem if you plan your military campaign around taxes. so it would be good to know what the current tax period is. 8 sounds like the common answer?
Should be 7, if all was fixed.
I was asking about what it currently is.. not what it should be.. XD
Quote from: fodder on October 18, 2011, 08:53:13 AM
I was asking about what it currently is.. not what it should be.. XD
When's the last time you had taxes?
We should know for sure in a week or so.
well, like i said, d'hara was 8 days.... apparently madina was also 8. though not sure if it's the one in the last few days or the one before..
Curious.
I thought you were talking about the tax before coming 8 days after, not this last one. It did indeed...
Well, I'll give you an answer in four hours or so. Last time around, we were ten days without tax and it came as bonds despite being inside my Duchy. Tomorrow will be day eight, so if that's how it goes these days, Barca will be another realm to confirm, showing a pattern. Will that mean an eight day week in BM culture and did taxes come as bonds across the board this week?
Finn.
Quote from: Carna on October 19, 2011, 02:22:38 AM
Will that mean an eight day week in BM culture and did taxes come as bonds across the board this week?
If taxes are coming in on any schedule other than every 7 days,
that is a bug, is completely unintentional, and will be fixed, as soon as the devs have time.