These may both already be in the code, but I'd like to see as an advantage for heros:
1) more honor in battles than other nobles (since they lead from the front)
or
2) ability to recruit larger troops than a Warrior class
You find both of these in the cavalier subclass, I believe.
I honestly wouldn't mind a merger of the two, though. Cavalier is a kinda pointless subclass imo.
ehh cavalier allows you to get more cavalry units? I think hero and cavalier classes should stay as they are now.
The cavalier recruiting bonus is for both cavalry and SF.
I *think* heroes get a similar bonus. Should be easy enough to check.
Quote from: Zakilevo on October 02, 2011, 09:54:05 PM
ehh cavalier allows you to get more cavalry units? I think hero and cavalier classes should stay as they are now.
I don't really see the point of that class, though, cause gold is way more of a limiting factor to the number of men you can recruit than honor is, especially for these cavalry units (since you won't go buying cheap cavalry).
Well cavaliers gain a lot of honour. That is pretty much it for them. As long as you do not fight militia, you gain at least one honour from any battle.
Quote from: Chénier on October 02, 2011, 11:40:10 PM
I don't really see the point of that class, though, cause gold is way more of a limiting factor to the number of men you can recruit than honor is, especially for these cavalry units (since you won't go buying cheap cavalry).
Only point I've found is really RP or getting to TO unit levels fast. I'll be interested to see what Tom's ideas on reforming H/P will be, but I think the main problem is that both of those things should be, in large part, determined by players with no real way for the game to figure it out that isn't prone to abuse.
Quote from: Chénier on October 02, 2011, 11:40:10 PM
I don't really see the point of that class, though, cause gold is way more of a limiting factor to the number of men you can recruit than honor is, especially for these cavalry units (since you won't go buying cheap cavalry).
cavalier
So don't do it unless you are a Duke, or have access to a nice large amount of gold. I've certainly seen cavalier's that are well funded enough to max out their unit, though I always dispute the utility of very large units.
Cavalier really comes into it's own when mixed with the courtier class, as courtier's desperately need honour to field useful units and the troop bonus is applied across the board for a cavalier, which means that a C/C can field at least 20 men.
If you have a loosely controlled area with archers or MI, you can control and upkeep a sizable chunk without the need for army support.
Quote from: Heq on October 03, 2011, 08:57:00 AM
Cavalier really comes into it's own when mixed with the courtier class, as courtier's desperately need honour to field useful units and the troop bonus is applied across the board for a cavalier, which means that a C/C can field at least 20 men.
If you have a loosely controlled area with archers or MI, you can control and upkeep a sizable chunk without the need for army support.
That is a terrible reason to select a class.
It depends on the situation. I've had a character in the past who recruited as much decent Cavalry as he could command as a Cavalier. I now have another character that recruits as much good Cavalry as she can (Although, granted, she's still new-ish and thus has lowish Honour). The latter would make a perfect Cavalier, which she will soon be. I say there's still enough opportunity around for the Cavalier class, beyond the RP value.
Quote from: De-Legro on October 03, 2011, 12:48:39 PM
That is a terrible reason to select a class.
So...you shouldn't select Priest for the preaching? or Diplomat for raising loyalty? Or Courtier for survey work/repairs?
Quote from: egamma on October 03, 2011, 06:44:33 PM
So...you shouldn't select Priest for the preaching? or Diplomat for raising loyalty? Or Courtier for survey work/repairs?
Selecting a sub class to try and overcome the deliberate weaknesses of the main class is in my opinion poor form and comes close to power gamming. IE you are doing it for no other reason then to "max" a certain number. There are plenty of good reasons to have a courtier/Cavalier, this is just not one of them in my opinion.
I think cavalier is a great class.
In PeL on Dwilight, we had a noble RP seeking acceptance into the society of Cavaliers of our realm, as those who are cavaliers are "highly honorable" and thus could be seen as a select group. Of course, Game Mechanics wise and IR wise we couldn't and wouldn't deny them, but RP wise it made great sense and worked extremely well to provide positive RP for the realm and our characters. Not to mention it is really fun to be able to lead a unit of 80+ Cavalry or Special Forces into battle. And yes, funding can be found for these especially when a Duke or otherwise. And you don't have to be a greedy duke to do it if you've been a cavalier forever and slowly build up the size of your unit. IT tends not to get destroyed very much outright on Dwilight anyway if your military is smart.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 04, 2011, 07:06:54 AM
I think cavalier is a great class.
In PeL on Dwilight, we had a noble RP seeking acceptance into the society of Cavaliers of our realm, as those who are cavaliers are "highly honorable" and thus could be seen as a select group. Of course, Game Mechanics wise and IR wise we couldn't and wouldn't deny them, but RP wise it made great sense and worked extremely well to provide positive RP for the realm and our characters. Not to mention it is really fun to be able to lead a unit of 80+ Cavalry or Special Forces into battle. And yes, funding can be found for these especially when a Duke or otherwise. And you don't have to be a greedy duke to do it if you've been a cavalier forever and slowly build up the size of your unit. IT tends not to get destroyed very much outright on Dwilight anyway if your military is smart.
If I didn't already have such a nice unit, I'd probably be pushing for an 85 SF man unit right now :D
Courtier cavaliers are the silliest thing ever. Cavaliers belong on the battlefield with huge cavalry units, not pushing papers behind a desk! Have you no dignity, sir?
Quote from: Sacha on October 04, 2011, 01:54:16 PM
Courtier cavaliers are the silliest thing ever. Cavaliers belong on the battlefield with huge cavalry units, not pushing papers behind a desk! Have you no dignity, sir?
What about Priest/Hero? Isn't that just a circumvention of the death mechanic?
What about Courtier/Hero? Isn't that a circumvention of the "no civil work" mechanic?
Warrior/Infiltrator--Doesn't the ability to have a unit bypass the random capture mechanic?
Quote from: egamma on October 04, 2011, 02:17:16 PM
What about Priest/Hero? Isn't that just a circumvention of the death mechanic?
It depends on why you do it. If you become a priest just so that you don't have to worry about your character dying in battle, then sure.
QuoteWhat about Courtier/Hero? Isn't that a circumvention of the "no civil work" mechanic?
Survey/Admin is not Civil Work. Civil Work is Civil Work. But I will agree that it's not very heroic...
QuoteWarrior/Infiltrator--Doesn't the ability to have a unit bypass the random capture mechanic?
Yep. But it also makes it much harder to sneak through regions with enemy troops.
Quote from: Indirik on October 04, 2011, 02:47:17 PM
It depends on why you do it. If you become a priest just so that you don't have to worry about your character dying in battle, then sure.
Survey/Admin is not Civil Work. Civil Work is Civil Work. But I will agree that it's not very heroic...
Yep. But it also makes it much harder to sneak through regions with enemy troops.
Bingo, I never said there was anything wrong with the class combinations, in fact I specifically said I can think of good IG reasons for them. I was against picking class combinations with the sole purpose to game the mechanics and reduce the disadvantages of the classes, or create the ultimate whatever.
Choose classes for RP reasons, for character flavour reasons, don't do it because you want skill X but don't want disadvantage Y.
Quote from: egamma on October 04, 2011, 02:17:16 PM
Warrior/Infiltrator--Doesn't the ability to have a unit bypass the random capture mechanic?
The other option is Courtier/Infiltrator, and surprise surprise you can still have a unit. The random mechanic is not specific to the infiltrator class, it affects all nobles that choose to wander around without a unit.
Well, Widden (my C/C) is the 'Everybody' of a one-province realm. He used to be on a crusade, but has some serious issues with solid decision making and loyalty (nothing like the "I took an oath" excuse when your Duke goes rabid).
Anyway, back on point, heroes need the variability because it's not an exitable class and -some- of them are going to live long enough to become crippled old knights. I'd be nifty if a hero who has had 10 serious injuries could change to, say, the mentor class, but the mentor class is getting phased out anyway.
Quote from: Heq on October 05, 2011, 04:14:30 AM
Well, Widden (my C/C) is the 'Everybody' of a one-province realm. He used to be on a crusade, but has some serious issues with solid decision making and loyalty (nothing like the "I took an oath" excuse when your Duke goes rabid).
Anyway, back on point, heroes need the variability because it's not an exitable class and -some- of them are going to live long enough to become crippled old knights. I'd be nifty if a hero who has had 10 serious injuries could change to, say, the mentor class, but the mentor class is getting phased out anyway.
What do you mean, I love my hero and he is getting rather long in the tooth. If he doesn't die soon he is going to miss more battles then he fights. But like priest Hero's are all about RP, if you aren't going to make the most out of your Heroic stature within the realm, then its really not the class for you.
Quote from: Indirik on October 04, 2011, 02:47:17 PM
Yep. But it also makes it much harder to sneak through regions with enemy troops.
What do you mean? Infils have higher chances of getting captured in a region that has enemy troops than non-infils do?
Quote from: Chénier on October 07, 2011, 01:32:12 AM
What do you mean? Infils have higher chances of getting captured in a region that has enemy troops than non-infils do?
He means if you have a unit, then trying to sneak through an enemy region that has troops is likely to result in a battle.
Quote from: De-Legro on October 07, 2011, 01:57:02 AM
He means if you have a unit, then trying to sneak through an enemy region that has troops is likely to result in a battle.
That doesn't matter for someone who would otherwise just be a plain warrior, though.
For the warrior, picking this subclass means a lower recruitment cap, but lower odds of capture while traveling without a unit, afaik.
Quote from: Chénier on October 07, 2011, 05:48:22 AM
That doesn't matter for someone who would otherwise just be a plain warrior, though.
For the warrior, picking this subclass means a lower recruitment cap, but lower odds of capture while traveling without a unit, afaik.
Yup in this case I believe egamma was suggesting the infiltrator would take the ain class to offset a infiltrator weakness, which he thought was not having a unit. However since the class/sub class came in, infiltrator are always able to have a unit, so it wasn't the best example.
Quote from: Sacha on October 04, 2011, 01:54:16 PM
Courtier cavaliers are the silliest thing ever. Cavaliers belong on the battlefield with huge cavalry units, not pushing papers behind a desk! Have you no dignity, sir?
Honor demands that I do the best for the realm. If it means pushing papers instead of bullies, I will throw any shred of dignity to the jakes. :) That's one alternative RP
Courtier/Infiltrator? Role-playing nobles who care enough about occupied region and work on calming the populace, etc. Or cynically cementing loyalty to the realm, making it harder for the enemy maintain their grip or even lengthening time needed to TO. Not sure about the mechanics, but it makes RP sense.
Quote from: STiAle on October 07, 2011, 06:05:11 AM
Courtier/Infiltrator? Role-playing nobles who care enough about occupied region and work on calming the populace, etc. Or cynically cementing loyalty to the realm, making it harder for the enemy maintain their grip or even lengthening time needed to TO. Not sure about the mechanics, but it makes RP sense.
Why do either of those RP models need a infiltrator sub class over just a standard Courtier?
Courtier/infils are those who lurk in their regions to maintain stats, and then proclaim, when an enemy arrives and loots, that they "must die!" for daring to bring light to their lair.
They get really pissed if you undo with a mere 6 hours what it took them weeks to accomplish. They take their work very seriously. ;)
Quote from: Chénier on October 07, 2011, 06:19:55 AM
Courtier/infils are those who lurk in their regions to maintain stats, and then proclaim, when an enemy arrives and loots, that they "must die!" for daring to bring light to their lair.
They get really pissed if you undo with a mere 6 hours what it took them weeks to accomplish. They take their work very seriously. ;)
Aye! That was the reason my courtier became an infil :D
Not much discussion on the Feature Request itself.
shall I lock this now?