Does such a tournament exist?Seen jousting ground at tournaments.But all I've seen is sword fighting tournaments.Maybe a future feature?
They exist, whomever is running the Tournament can choose to include jousting, its just a less common choice.
Have never seen one
The swordfighting skill is preferred by many since it is also useful in fighting duels and protecting against infiltrator attacks. Since one advantage of tournaments is free training, it makes swordfighting tournaments more common.
I think one can train both sword or joust regardless of the kind of competition the tournament includes. Thus, a jousting tournament would provide the same potential training as a swordfighting one. But I may be wrong.
Joust Training Match would be nice ;)
Quote from: Peri on November 10, 2011, 02:01:46 PM
I think one can train both sword or joust regardless of the kind of competition the tournament includes. Thus, a jousting tournament would provide the same potential training as a swordfighting one. But I may be wrong.
Yes, you can train both skills. But most nobles are far weaker on the lance, and since they like to show off, lance-only tournaments are less popular.
I've seen many jousting tournaments. But I've seen at least four times more of swordfighting tournaments. While SF tournaments are decided in a duel, jousting tournaments are decided over three rounds. If you enter one, each round will look pretty close to the following.
Round 1
Knight A won vs Knight B with 3:0
Knight C won vs Knight D with 2:1
Quote from: egamma on November 10, 2011, 05:26:54 PM
Yes, you can train both skills. But most nobles are far weaker on the lance, and since they like to show off, lance-only tournaments are less popular.
Does that include Training Matches?
I do not think there is a training match for jousting. If there is, I am not so sure. Non of my characters trained on jousting. Only character I train is one on Dwilight and I only train him with the sword.
Training matches, like duels, are swords only.
"Jousting duels" are a frequently rejected request.
Quote from: Indirik on November 11, 2011, 01:44:11 AM
Training matches, like duels, are swords only.
"Jousting duels" are a frequently rejected request.
How come? Joust Training with a friend would be a very nice addition and would give rp potential. Joust Dueling could be done but well.. can only see the french ever doing it.. HRE and England wouldnt...
It is probably because knights never dueled each other with lances during the medieval?
Quote from: Zakilevo on November 11, 2011, 03:56:53 AM
It is probably because knights never dueled each other with lances during the medieval?
They certainly trained together with lances though, so I see training matches as a perfect way to incorporate that into the game.
Quote from: Zakilevo on November 11, 2011, 03:56:53 AM
It is probably because knights never dueled each other with lances during the medieval?
you say that but you mainly hear of dueling in the C18-C19. And I am sure that somewhere two french knights dueled on lances - they are french after all ;)
PS; Longbows for the Win! :D
If you command a cavalry unit you will need jousting.I mostly use archers-they seem to have the highest survival chance of the lot.But I'm starting to like cavalry for their fast travel times.What about cavalier subclass?
Quote from: mikm on November 11, 2011, 11:07:23 AM
If you command a cavalry unit you will need jousting.I mostly use archers-they seem to have the highest survival chance of the lot.But I'm starting to like cavalry for their fast travel times.What about cavalier subclass?
Not really. High Jousting skill is hardly needed to make effective use of a cavalry unit, any more then high sword fighting is required for an effective infantry unit.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 11, 2011, 12:10:51 PM
Not really. High Jousting skill is hardly needed to make effective use of a cavalry unit, any more then high sword fighting is required for an effective infantry unit.
That should be changed.
Quote from: mikm on November 11, 2011, 12:22:40 PM
That should be changed.
Why? I have recruited a unit of trained cavalry. Why should my personal skill dictate how effective they are? I believe there is a small modifier to account for your own part in the battle but surly you don't suggest that a unit of highly skilled cavalry suddenly lose their skills when lead by a wet behind the ears noble?
The other factor that is while there are some correlation, jousting as performed in tournaments is fairly different to the standard cavalry charge with lances lowered.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 11, 2011, 01:00:27 PM
Why? I have recruited a unit of trained cavalry. Why should my personal skill dictate how effective they are? I believe there is a small modifier to account for your own part in the battle but surly you don't suggest that a unit of highly skilled cavalry suddenly lose their skills when lead by a wet behind the ears noble?
The other factor that is while there are some correlation, jousting as performed in tournaments is fairly different to the standard cavalry charge with lances lowered.
You could reduce the need for sword fighting. Would rather like to see tournaments for roleplay rather then game mechanics.
Quote from: mikm on November 11, 2011, 01:36:20 PM
You could reduce the need for sword fighting. Would rather like to see tournaments for roleplay rather then game mechanics.
All the game mechanics have done is create a RP world were sword fighting is more respected then jousting, which is the opposite of RL where the Jousting aspect of tournaments was more prestigious. The fact that it is different is in no way wrong though.
Still think a Jousting Training Match would be a very nice addition.
Quote from: Ramiel on November 12, 2011, 02:18:03 AM
Still think a Jousting Training Match would be a very nice addition.
I'm not expert in jousting, but did they ever really train against each other? I know about the different stationary targets they used to train against, but since I thought jousting was a reasonably dangerous activity I always assumed that "live" training wasn't common.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 12, 2011, 03:01:25 AM
I'm not expert in jousting, but did they ever really train against each other? I know about the different stationary targets they used to train against, but since I thought jousting was a reasonably dangerous activity I always assumed that "live" training wasn't common.
Pretty sure they must have. Stationary targets are crap after all.
Besides, same thing could be said for sword practice - or that it was more dangerous that jousting. But we would assume they would blunten their lances and not leave the pointy bit :D
Quote from: Ramiel on November 12, 2011, 04:26:28 AM
Pretty sure they must have. Stationary targets are crap after all.
Besides, same thing could be said for sword practice - or that it was more dangerous that jousting. But we would assume they would blunten their lances and not leave the pointy bit :D
No jousting used pointed lances, the threat came from two main sources, the first being the splintering wood the second being the injuries from falling off the horse, or potentially partially falling off the horse and being dragged.
The danger involved in sword training is a heap less, as anyone that has trained in armed forms of martial arts could tell you.
Having gert big bits of metal swung at you is dangerous I am sure :P
Quote from: Ramiel on November 14, 2011, 06:07:24 PM
Having gert big bits of metal swung at you is dangerous I am sure :P
Not if you're clad in heavy armor, using blunt weapons (with regard of the safety of your competitor).
And yes, jousting, even during training, would be highly dangerous. Numerous sources tell of people dieing in such tournaments (with blunt lances), mostly from falling of their horse (as said above) :) I've even read a case where one knight got wounded in the saddle, causing all others present to start fighting, ending in the death of several spectators :P
Quote from: Shizzle on November 15, 2011, 12:03:20 AM
Not if you're clad in heavy armor, using blunt weapons (with regard of the safety of your competitor).
And yes, jousting, even during training, would be highly dangerous. Numerous sources tell of people dieing in such tournaments (with blunt lances), mostly from falling of their horse (as said above) :) I've even read a case where one knight got wounded in the saddle, causing all others present to start fighting, ending in the death of several spectators :P
No amount of armour would make me consider sword training safe :P
And yes jousting was very fun :P Maybe give it slightly higher % when Joust Training to get an injury? :P
Quote from: Ramiel on November 15, 2011, 02:30:44 AM
No amount of armour would make me consider sword training safe :P
And yes jousting was very fun :P Maybe give it slightly higher % when Joust Training to get an injury? :P
Sword training can be done with sticks. Jousting requires riding horses.
Quote from: egamma on November 15, 2011, 05:48:26 AM
Sword training can be done with sticks. Jousting requires riding horses.
Some would say Jousting is just using sticks :P
Quote from: Ramiel on November 15, 2011, 03:23:51 PM
Some would say Jousting is just using sticks :P
F=M*A*A
True--but you're adding the charge of the horses, which could easily end up in a 60mph (100kph) collision. Nowadays we have seatbelts and airbags to handle that type of acceleration (and deceleration).
Quote from: egamma on November 15, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
F=M*A*A
True--but you're adding the charge of the horses, which could easily end up in a 60mph (100kph) collision. Nowadays we have seatbelts and airbags to handle that type of acceleration (and deceleration).
I doubt horses, with all that armor would go that fast.
Not sure if they wore armor in jousting contests, though.
Still, it is an important collision indeed.
Quote from: Chénier on November 15, 2011, 06:33:10 PM
I doubt horses, with all that armor would go that fast.
Not sure if they wore armor in jousting contests, though.
Still, it is an important collision indeed.
Relative velocity, since both are approaching at speed.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 16, 2011, 02:27:23 AM
Relative velocity, since both are approaching at speed.
Do horses in full armor go at 50km/h?
I honestly don't know. I wasn't under the impression that they do. And I was assuming they wore armor. Both assumptions may be false.
Quote from: Chénier on November 16, 2011, 07:28:35 PM
Do horses in full armor go at 50km/h?
I honestly don't know. I wasn't under the impression that they do. And I was assuming they wore armor. Both assumptions may be false.
Why would they? They just wore some protection to the head.
I did a small bit of reading on this subject, and I find it interesting that "jousting duels" were not strictly jousting. They generally included three separate feats of arms. The wikipedia article on jousting quotes one story written in 1390 which describes the duel as "...to tilt three courses with the lance, to give three blows with the battle axe, and three strokes with the dagger..."
Horses in jousting wore head armor called a "champron" or "chamfron".
And, quite interestingly, in one form of jousting the participants tried to knock feathered crests off of each others helmets! :o
Quote from: Indirik on November 16, 2011, 09:36:28 PM
I did a small bit of reading on this subject, and I find it interesting that "jousting duels" were not strictly jousting. They generally included three separate feats of arms. The wikipedia article on jousting quotes one story written in 1390 which describes the duel as "...to tilt three courses with the lance, to give three blows with the battle axe, and three strokes with the dagger..."
Horses in jousting wore head armor called a "champron" or "chamfron".
And, quite interestingly, in one form of jousting the participants tried to knock feathered crests off of each others helmets! :o
Aiming for the head...? That's pretty badass. Something I'd imagine from a Jackass movie, though, to think of it.
Quote from: Chénier on November 17, 2011, 12:39:29 AM
Aiming for the head...? That's pretty badass. Something I'd imagine from a Jackass movie, though, to think of it.
Since the body was generally covered by the shield, which was curved to deflect the lance and minimize the impact, aiming for the head was a difficult yet successful strategy. There is tale of a English knight that won a jousting tournament, and when they went to award him for it, they found him kneeling at the blacksmiths anvil having his helmet removed, which had been spun and stuck 180 degrees around.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 17, 2011, 01:21:54 AM
Since the body was generally covered by the shield, which was curved to deflect the lance and minimize the impact, aiming for the head was a difficult yet successful strategy. There is tale of a English knight that won a jousting tournament, and when they went to award him for it, they found him kneeling at the blacksmiths anvil having his helmet removed, which had been spun and stuck 180 degrees around.
Indeed, something one would expect from Jackass.
Quote from: Chénier on November 17, 2011, 01:24:35 AM
Indeed, something one would expect from Jackass.
Welcome to the Warrior caste, otherwise known as manly men whom must prove their manliness by whacking each other with what ever comes to hand. There are some well documented sociological studies that suggest a link between behavior like that shown on Jackass (which while extreme similar behavior is very common) and a lack of regimented initiation rights like those seen in tribal situations, and ritual outlets of aggression. So the guys from Jackass are really just acting out cause nobody will let them joust :)
Quote from: De-Legro on November 17, 2011, 01:43:56 AM
Welcome to the Warrior caste, otherwise known as manly men whom must prove their manliness by whacking each other with what ever comes to hand. There are some well documented sociological studies that suggest a link between behavior like that shown on Jackass (which while extreme similar behavior is very common) and a lack of regimented initiation rights like those seen in tribal situations, and ritual outlets of aggression. So the guys from Jackass are really just acting out cause nobody will let them joust :)
Time to bring back jousting then! :D
Quote from: Ramiel on November 17, 2011, 03:29:00 AM
Time to bring back jousting then! :D
http://www.warhorse.com/
http://www.nationaljousting.com/
http://worldjoust.com/
http://www.knightsofmayhem.com/
Quote from: Indirik on November 17, 2011, 04:44:17 AM
http://www.warhorse.com/
http://www.nationaljousting.com/
http://worldjoust.com/
http://www.knightsofmayhem.com/
According to that last site's video, the unarmored horses go at 30mph I think I heard.
Quote from: Chénier on November 17, 2011, 05:53:23 AM
According to that last site's video, the unarmored horses go at 30mph I think I heard.
That is what it says, up to 30 mph. Mind you they don't look to be specially bred warhorses either.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 17, 2011, 06:20:01 AM
That is what it says, up to 30 mph. Mind you they don't look to be specially bred warhorses either.
True. Some of them don't seem to be wearing much armor either, though.
Does anyone have a source saying how horses were equipped for these things? 'Cause putting armor on them to protect them from the sticks and splinters would make a lot of sense, especially since speed wasn't as useful as it might be on the battlefield and since lower speeds are less likely to result in serious injury.
Quote from: Chénier on November 17, 2011, 06:26:54 AM
True. Some of them don't seem to be wearing much armor either, though.
Does anyone have a source saying how horses were equipped for these things? 'Cause putting armor on them to protect them from the sticks and splinters would make a lot of sense, especially since speed wasn't as useful as it might be on the battlefield and since lower speeds are less likely to result in serious injury.
I'm not sure knights went out of their way to avoid injury. My understand was the whole fatal aspect was part of the allure.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 17, 2011, 07:09:21 AM
I'm not sure knights went out of their way to avoid injury. My understand was the whole fatal aspect was part of the allure.
They wore armor, did they not?
I'm not saying they weren't willing to take any risks, but I believe that even at low speeds you have enough risk. I doubt they wanted people to die every second joust.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 17, 2011, 07:09:21 AM
I'm not sure knights went out of their way to avoid injury. My understand was the whole fatal aspect was part of the allure.
Well, given that they wore much heavier armor when jousting than fighting, and used blunted weapons . . . I'd say so.
I think horses wore pretty heavy armor -- a good warhorse was quite valuable, after all.
Quote from: BardicNerd on November 17, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Well, given that they wore much heavier armor when jousting than fighting, and used blunted weapons . . . I'd say so.
I think horses wore pretty heavy armor -- a good warhorse was quite valuable, after all.
I don't think warhorses would be used for jousting. Also, I bet that if a horse was wounded or killed, the owner could demand compensation (in some cases).
Well, I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jousting No time to read now though, need to get to a lesson Greek Archaeology :)
Quote from: BardicNerd on November 17, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
Well, given that they wore much heavier armor when jousting than fighting, and used blunted weapons . . . I'd say so.
I think horses wore pretty heavy armor -- a good warhorse was quite valuable, after all.
I've never heard that they wore different armour for jousting, that would certainly be quiet an extra expense on top of everything else. Certainly during the earliest jousting period, about 1070 plate armour wasn't used at all. Full plate armour wouldn't have been universal until about 1400 or so.
The only references I can find for "Jousting" armour is from the 15th and 16th century. By this stage the heavy cavalry tactics on which jousting was based had become obsolete, and Jousting had transformed into a sport with no military connection. As such its training aspect was no longer important, so heavy armor that restricted movement much more then was suitable for the battlefield could be used. Even during this period there was a lighter form of jousting without such excessive armour.
In terms of horse two types were used, the medium-weight horses bred and trained for agility and stamina known as warmblood Chargers, and the Heavy coldblood destriers. The heavy horses were actually slower but at twice the weight of a regular riding horse enabled a much greater impact force.
In terms of speed it would seem they used the Ambling pace for jousting, which is slower then a canter. This allowed the stability needed for aiming.