BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Stue (DC) on November 10, 2011, 03:03:08 PM
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I rally had enough of discussions where personal attack replace exchange of arguments, but as I already received number of questions related to some current aspects of fair play, I would bring the case here just to receive feedback.
If you are prone to attack me for what I am (though you don't actually know me), please skip this subject, while if you are interested in impersonal discussion about game issues, you are more than welcome.
So we have situation where our realm declared hatred to other, which bring many limitations for near of far future, but that also make some increased troubles to our enemies to take our region. From what I see (I do not claim that my observation is referrent), they decided to take easier path by way of systematically taking our regions by "third party", means they bring all their army to destroy our defenses, than allied army brings often one single troop to take our region.
If that happened once, I would not probably bother much, but now it is becoming apparent that it is systematic approach, applied to all our regions and implemented for RL months.
For me it looks pretty much as sort of circumventing game mechanics, and disrespecting spirit of in-game world. Takeover is taking region for yourself, and you can always use in-game options of region exchange to gift such region to your ally, but this bypass approach mostly looks like sort of exploit.
Of course, takeover mechanics could be improved in way that only largerst army in the region can conduct takeover, but it is not the case now. I believe we are here to respect game spirit, not to use things to make it easier for ourselves just because game mechanics allowys it.
Of course, that is just my personal opinon, comments are welcome.
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Can you explain this in a little more detail? The description you've given is so vague as to make any response pointless. For example:
Is Realm C handing the regions over to Realm B at a later date or is Realm C just taking them from you and keeping them?
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To the Magistrates! :P
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To the Magistrates! :P
Yes, this sounds like a case for them.
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So we have situation where our realm declared hatred to other, which bring many limitations for near of far future, but that also make some increased troubles to our enemies to take our region.
This is somewhat off topic but the only thing hatred does is prevent ceasefire offers.
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There are a few other minor things, as well.
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This is somewhat off topic but the only thing hatred does is prevent ceasefire offers.
Really? I could have sworn it makes sympathy for the hated realm drop in your own realm.
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Really? I could have sworn it makes sympathy for the hated realm drop in your own realm.
Isn't confirmation bias fun? ;D
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Isn't confirmation bias fun? ;D
Isn't the point of declaring hatred that it's harder for the enemy to take over your regions?
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no.. the point would be to declare they are your hated enemies. anything else, if exist (no idea), is a bonus
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I rally had enough of discussions where personal attack replace exchange of arguments, but as I already received number of questions related to some current aspects of fair play, I would bring the case here just to receive feedback.
If you are prone to attack me for what I am (though you don't actually know me), please skip this subject, while if you are interested in impersonal discussion about game issues, you are more than welcome.
So we have situation where our realm declared hatred to other, which bring many limitations for near of far future, but that also make some increased troubles to our enemies to take our region. From what I see (I do not claim that my observation is referrent), they decided to take easier path by way of systematically taking our regions by "third party", means they bring all their army to destroy our defenses, than allied army brings often one single troop to take our region.
If that happened once, I would not probably bother much, but now it is becoming apparent that it is systematic approach, applied to all our regions and implemented for RL months.
For me it looks pretty much as sort of circumventing game mechanics, and disrespecting spirit of in-game world. Takeover is taking region for yourself, and you can always use in-game options of region exchange to gift such region to your ally, but this bypass approach mostly looks like sort of exploit.
Of course, takeover mechanics could be improved in way that only largerst army in the region can conduct takeover, but it is not the case now. I believe we are here to respect game spirit, not to use things to make it easier for ourselves just because game mechanics allowys it.
Of course, that is just my personal opinon, comments are welcome.
My opinion is that such things can be very situation. For example mega realm A may decide to help ally realm B by providing a large military forces that smashes realm C and leaves their regions available for realm B to takeover, also providing their forces to speed up the take overs. Possibly not much fun for realm C but to me this satisfied the spirit of the game and one of the purposes of allies.
What I disagree with in the case you stated was the SINGLE unit doing the TO's. Thinking IC I have a hard time justifying any realm sending a single unit to TO, even if you have allied help. I would also like to know are the regions being handed back to the original aggressor?
I'm not sure what Hatred does with regards to TOs, but if the second realm supplying the single TO unit is significantly smaller then their ally, they should have a easier time TOing the regions as well, so far as I understand it at least.
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if i felt to be magistrates case, i would have sent it there, but that assumes belief that someone needs to be punished, while i was mostly interested in non-binding aspects of fair-play consensus if that is possible.
generally, i am very doubtful about whether fair-play can be imposed by force.
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generally, as far as i remember one of main reasons to declare hatred was exactly to make regions more resistant to takeovers of that realm, with apparent cost of reducing diplomatic possibilities, and i believe it is proved hatred does such thins, and i also believe they realized that, and modified their i-c strategies afterwards, which i personally consider unfair.
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if the issue is realm A-B hatred and realm C (allied to A) pops along to TO B, then something to think about is to have A being utterly ineffective in terms of aiding the TO.
assuming that isn't the case already.
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if the issue is realm A-B hatred and realm C (allied to A) pops along to TO B, then something to think about is to have A being utterly ineffective in terms of aiding the TO.
assuming that isn't the case already.
The issue is moot, because despite what Stue thinks, Hatred actually has absolutely no effect on how hard it is for a realm to take regions from its enemies. Therefore, there is no game mechanic to be circumvented.
What I think is a much more interesting question is this:
Assuming for the sake of argument that, if Hatred did do what Stue thought, what realms B and C were doing was an unethical and unfair circumvention of game mechanics—does the fact that Hatred does nothing of the sort change anything? That is, if the players in those realms should be punished for actually circumventing game mechanics in the described way, should they also be punished for intending to do so, even when there was nothing to actually circumvent?
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regardless of the hatred issue, having 1 unit of B TO a region of C with the help of an allied army of A... is that a good thing, if it's indeed possible?
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regardless of the hatred issue, having 1 unit of B TO a region of C with the help of an allied army of A... is that a good thing, if it's indeed possible?
It's not possible. What is possible (as Anaris described) would be for Realm B to take a region from Realm A and then give it away to Realm C. Why anyone would do that—since it would take weeks of time and effort—is another question. There really isn't a reason to it since Hatred doesn't do what many people thought it did. If you want to keep people from taking over your regions, that's why we have a Diplomat subclass.
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i'm surprised that if you are member of dev team make such statements easily.
it is possible, proven and witnessed and even practiced - one single troop can take the region with support of allied troops.
practiced means i did it myself once long time ago, witnessed means that happened few weeks or month ago.
as regards to effects of hatred, of course, i can only make assumptions, such kind of witnessing is not possible, but i still believe (assumtpion again) there is some effect - loyalty and morale hold better when hated enemy is looting, or something like that.
i already saw realm destroyed by hated enemy and no region could be taken without destroying most of population, in range of two thirds to four fifths (approximations, of course). and, as far as i remember, there is some wiki mention of it.
these are my observations, but if devs know that hatred has no effects, than it would better fit thread "punishments" when you receive nothing but sorrow when using some options.
however, if it is clearly confirmed that hatred does not make any kind of such effect, than i believe the whole this discussion is hardly relevant.
the issue of taking regions with tiny or micro- army + ally help remains, but that can always be solved by disallowing smaller army to initiate takeover, if gods decide so.
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It's not possible.
Taking a region with a single unit is most certainly possible, even without any allied assistance. It depends on sympathy and population, of course, like always. I don't know offhand the rate of exchange on allied assistance, but I'm 95% sure it doesn't count for starting TOs, just maintaining them.
these are my observations, but if devs know that hatred has no effects, than it would better fit thread "punishments" when you receive nothing but sorrow when using some options.
It's true, and ever since I learned about this, I thought it seemed odd. I have always suspected that more was intended for Hatred, but it never got implemented. Never got around to asking Tom, though, and there's a good chance he wouldn't remember anyway.
Either way, Hatred as it exists now won't exist under the new diplomacy system that's coming, and anything we implement to replace it will be less confusing and more effective.
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The question as asked was whether one realm could somehow takeover a region of another realm on behalf of their friend. Is this correct? If the question was instead "can a single unit TO a region", the answer is yes. The reason my answer would seem ludicrous is because it *would* be a ludicrous answer to that question.
And Stue, the reason nobody likes answering your questions is that you can't help but work in some kind of denigrating statement or personal attack. Compounding the problem is that you're usually wrong in your assumptions. Don't be a dick, especially if it turns out to be a simple communication mistake.
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you are dick and moderator who encourages such behavior is much worse dick.
you apparently feel that you own both this forum and game as well, such miserable behavior would not be tolerated in place with minimum of civilized manners.
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you are dick and moderator who encourages such behavior is much worse dick.
you apparently feel that you own both this forum and game as well, such miserable behavior would not be tolerated in place with minimum of civilized manners.
He's not a moderator, only a member of the dev team.
And the only miserable behaviour or lack of manners here has been yours. You frequently come here not to ask simple, honest questions to clarify the way things work, but to demand that something be changed so that your personal assumptions about the game can be made the truth, and your side in whatever conflict you're currently losing can gain the upper hand.
If you are trying to do something in the game, and it is not working out, the reasonable, polite thing to do is not to come to the forums and claim loudly (and with a total lack of proper capitalization) that everything is bugged, and the game is rigged against you. It is certainly not to berate the members of the development team when they try to give you polite, reasonable answers. However, this is what you have done, again and again.
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you are dick and moderator who encourages such behavior is much worse dick.
you apparently feel that you own both this forum and game as well, such miserable behavior would not be tolerated in place with minimum of civilized manners.
I am very sorry that you feel this way. It doesn't change my opinion (elaborated upon by Anaris so artfully), but I will try harder to avoid offending your delicate sensibilities in the future.
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you are dick and moderator who encourages such behavior is much worse dick.
you apparently feel that you own both this forum and game as well, such miserable behavior would not be tolerated in place with minimum of civilized manners.
It really does not help your case when you call members of the Dev Team "dicks". You should count your lucky stars that you haven't been given a vacation from the forums for that kind of remark. I'm pretty damn sure the Dev Team members, as well as the Magistrates and Testers (and anyone else I've missed) do not volunteer their time to be insulted.
Anaris/Tim is right on this one. You've done this multiple times, and frankly I think you need a time-out. But that is not my call for I'm just a player, not a moderator or anything special.
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i don't know whether you pretend that you are deaf and blind, so you don't want to see that i was just reacting to primitive talk this guy initiates, or you believe that dev team members are allowed to behave like that, while the other forum members are not.
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i don't know whether you pretend that you are deaf and blind, so you don't want to see that i was just reacting to primitive talk this guy initiates, or you believe that dev team members are allowed to behave like that, while the other forum members are not.
Even if I believed this was the case, which I don't. Their game, their forum their rules. Don't like it, go find a game to play that you do like. See how simple it is, nobody in this game, including the Devs owe you a single thing.
From almost your very first post you have been demanding, obstinate and aggressive towards anyone that doesn't share your view on the game. At first I was willing to believe it was simply a language barrier, but it became clear when you were unable to even consider that someone might have a different experience of the game then you that this was not the case.
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Come now, only Anaris is bitchy and then usually with good reason - it does make good reading.
Solari aint like that.
You trying to bait them certainly will not help matters nor change their answer.
Devs = Word is Law when concerning the Game. Only Tom could even overrule them, and I am certain he wont if someone starts insulting his Devs, who are volunteers as far as I understand it, who works damn hard to keep the game working as smoothly as possible.
Stue, you need to separate your characters from the player and take it easy. You asked your question, Anaris gave you the answer from Dev and Code point of view - accept it and move on.
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He's not a moderator, only a member of the dev team.
And the only miserable behaviour or lack of manners here has been yours. You frequently come here not to ask simple, honest questions to clarify the way things work, but to demand that something be changed so that your personal assumptions about the game can be made the truth, and your side in whatever conflict you're currently losing can gain the upper hand.
If you are trying to do something in the game, and it is not working out, the reasonable, polite thing to do is not to come to the forums and claim loudly (and with a total lack of proper capitalization) that everything is bugged, and the game is rigged against you. It is certainly not to berate the members of the development team when they try to give you polite, reasonable answers. However, this is what you have done, again and again.
it is miserable from your side that you are trying to endorse his primitive behavior, while at the same time attacking on me for reacting to his primitive behavior.
that is not my language, what anyone can see from my post, but this kind i made exception as the only means of protest for tolerating such attitude.
at the very beginning on this post i asked those who are obsessed with personal attacks to move somewhere else, but again what should be discussion about the game ends with some always the same guys attacking me directly, personally, unrelated to any discussion.
judging people's characters and valuing people, as you are doing is ultimately arrogant and presents lack of common manners. people in discussions confront their opinions, and trying to devalue others personality is the way to prevent any discussion, is the way of violence, verbal or any other.
therefore, i will not response to your judgments by judging you.
naturally, i am really sick of seeing this, rude and aggressive approach of few people is apparently trying to take dominance on this forum by sheer force.
as long as i believe it is tom who owns the game, i will still have some hope for the game itself, but for this forum while situation is like this, any effort is apparent waste of time.
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*locked*
I think we've pretty much gotten past the point of getting anything useful out of this thread...