Several times now, I've had new players, with new characters, offer my character an oath without any accompanying letter. Due to his nature, he asks for a letter of introduction.
Seriously, what is up with people just sending an offer without any letter??!
Laziness. Especially with the old system: they just wanted your gold, and knew that you just wanted their estates.
Most lords don't really bother to RP the relationship, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise of many knights don't either.
If they are new players, they probably don't feel entirely confortable sending letters yet and wish to try the game mechanic before trying to RP. I remember when I joined I sent an oath request because I read someplace that one of the first thing you do is to get an oath. Only later did I realize fully what it meant.
True. Newbs can't be expected to know how to deal with oaths.
Mind you, many old timers don't bother (anymore) either.
depends on the island. though you could imagine sending an oath offer would already entail a letter of intro, etc (that you didn't get to read)
it's no different from a lord carving out an estate and someone picking it up all without writing a single word.
Quote from: fodder on December 13, 2011, 05:26:07 PM
it's no different from a lord carving out and estate and someone picking it up all without writing a single word.
You mean the new estate system, especially on Dwilight? I like to think of it as squatters' rights.
Or, as it's called here in Texas, Adverse Possession: http://www.wfaa.com/news/consumer/After-moving-in-for-16-man-ready-to-share-technique-adverse-possession-kenneth-robinson-125928273.html (http://www.wfaa.com/news/consumer/After-moving-in-for-16-man-ready-to-share-technique-adverse-possession-kenneth-robinson-125928273.html)
I don't think I have ever seen anyone truly RP the entire ceremony of taking an oath with a lord. Specifically, running through a whole ceremony with negotiations, and then the knight swearing an oath, and the the lord accepting and swearing his part of the oath, etc. The entire system is generally not set up for that kind of thing. Under the old system the need for knights was so pressing that no one wanted to wait the many days such a thing would probably require. Under the new system, with estates there for the taking... well, squatter's rights is about it. :) Still, I would at least like to exchange a letter or two with the guy that took an estate in my region.
Yes, the whole oath ceremony is outside the "5 minutes a day".
Perhaps when New Economy is implemented, knights can offer oaths of # chickens, that sort of thing. That would be fun, as long as it was optional.
One thing that would be interesting, but would probably end up being way too in-depth for the game, is that resources are generated on individual estates. The estate holder would have an oath to deliver a certain portion of those resources to the lord. Who would then have an oath with the duke to deliver certain portions of that to the duke, and the duke to the crown. i.e. a knight has an estate the generates 100 bushels of food, 100 units of stone, and 100 gold. His oath to his lord says "You owe me 60% of everything". So on each tax day the knight gets 40 gold/food/stone, and gives 60 of each to the lord. The lord collects everything from his own estate, plus the estates of his knights, and then delivers his own percentage of that to the duke. The lord/knight could then negotiate the percentages of each. The knight could say "I don't want the stone, but I want the food to supply my trading ventures" and the lord could say "I want the stone, so I can send it to the duke for his walls, you can keep the food", etc.
While this would be interesting, I think it might be too detailed to fit into the game.
Quote from: Indirik on December 13, 2011, 08:37:30 PM
One thing that would be interesting, but would probably end up being way too in-depth for the game, is that resources are generated on individual estates. The estate holder would have an oath to deliver a certain portion of those resources to the lord. Who would then have an oath with the duke to deliver certain portions of that to the duke, and the duke to the crown. i.e. a knight has an estate the generates 100 bushels of food, 100 units of stone, and 100 gold. His oath to his lord says "You owe me 60% of everything". So on each tax day the knight gets 40 gold/food/stone, and gives 60 of each to the lord. The lord collects everything from his own estate, plus the estates of his knights, and then delivers his own percentage of that to the duke. The lord/knight could then negotiate the percentages of each. The knight could say "I don't want the stone, but I want the food to supply my trading ventures" and the lord could say "I want the stone, so I can send it to the duke for his walls, you can keep the food", etc.
While this would be interesting, I think it might be too detailed to fit into the game.
That's why you make it optional, with a sensible default like you suggest.
And far, far in the future, I'm guessing 3 years out.
Personally, I think the default would be that the lord gets all the resources, and the knight keeps most of the gold. That way only lords would have to deal with the resources, unless the knights want to actually get the resources and then trade it themselves. I suppose you could even extrapolate it away, to the point where you give the knight the option of either getting the resources, or getting the "gold equivalent". But that would require us to set some baseline going rate for the resources, and then auto-convert it for the knights at a certain percentage of that going rate. But, meh, like you said, this is waaaaaaaaay far down the line.
Quote from: Indirik on December 13, 2011, 08:54:16 PM
Personally, I think the default would be that the lord gets all the resources, and the knight keeps most of the gold. That way only lords would have to deal with the resources, unless the knights want to actually get the resources and then trade it themselves. I suppose you could even extrapolate it away, to the point where you give the knight the option of either getting the resources, or getting the "gold equivalent". But that would require us to set some baseline going rate for the resources, and then auto-convert it for the knights at a certain percentage of that going rate. But, meh, like you said, this is waaaaaaaaay far down the line.
Presumably the nights might need lumber or stone to build more New Economy buildings.
It got tiring trying to put realistic work into making real Oaths and a Lord/Knight relationship when Knights and Lords move around so much anyways. Why put all the work into the relationship when your Knight is just going to get promoted to the next available Lordship in a couple weeks or will be asked to move to a different region for estate coverage reasons? Got tiring.
When we were first talking about forming Asylon the plan was for true oaths to be in place. Part of the way we were going to manage that was to make a fund that we could use to cover a new nobles expenses while they learn't a bit about the realm and established a relationship with possible lieges. We also had a few generic oath ceremonies to make things a bit easier.
Quote from: Perth on December 14, 2011, 04:50:02 AM
be asked to move to a different region for estate coverage reasons?
I have always hated this. To me this completely breaks the concept of oaths and feels a bit too much like trying to "maximise" a realms returns.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 14, 2011, 05:09:36 AM
I have always hated this. To me this completely breaks the concept of oaths and feels a bit too much like trying to "maximise" a realms returns.
I hate it too, and it sucks to have to do. But what can you do? Sit around and let your regions all slowly drop in stats or have Lords sit in them and constantly hold court? Maybe possible during peace time, but if you're at war forget it. If you don't reassign Knights where needed, might as well hang your hat and go home.
Thankfully, however, the New Estate System largely fixes this problem (still waiting on Atamara and FEI!), just not the Take-Oaths-Seriously problem.
Quote from: Perth on December 14, 2011, 05:15:59 AM
I hate it too, and it sucks to have to do. But what can you do? Sit around and let your regions all slowly drop in stats or have Lords sit in them and constantly hold court? Maybe possible during peace time, but if you're at war forget it. If you don't reassign Knights where needed, might as well hang your hat and go home.
Thankfully, however, the New Estate System largely fixes this problem (still waiting on Atamara and FEI!), just not the Take-Oaths-Seriously problem.
Actually yes, if a Lord cannot secure the faithful service of a knight, without the realm making noise about "estate coverage" I have no problem with the Lord losing the region due to poor stats, or the realm having to put in a massive effort to retain it.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 14, 2011, 05:18:25 AM
...or the realm having to put in a massive effort to retain it.
They do. By hounding the Lord and any excess Knights to transfer to the region in need.
I honestly don't see what the problem is. New players don't want to be sitting waiting for their Lord to go through all the proper procedures as if they were doing a Let's Play Bureaucracy. That's boring, and keeps them from doing the things they want to, like fighting battles or political intrigue.
Quote from: Perth on December 14, 2011, 03:48:32 PM
They do. By hounding the Lord and any excess Knights to transfer to the region in need.
I always do my best to help with the initial match-up. Last thing I want is for a noble of the realm to be stuck without an oath/estate for too long. That's no good.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on December 15, 2011, 08:55:42 PM
I honestly don't see what the problem is. New players don't want to be sitting waiting for their Lord to go through all the proper procedures as if they were doing a Let's Play Bureaucracy. That's boring, and keeps them from doing the things they want to, like fighting battles or political intrigue.
The problem is: my character (only this one) would never accept an oath from someone that doesn't even introduce themselves. I think that it is very little to ask for a simple message to be sent. Even if they are "flying under the radar" until they "understand the game better".
Then start a conversation with them. Perfect opportunity to get to know the new guy.
Yes, even if you just welcome him with an ooc message just to get him started in the game.
not much point getting worked up about something that's essentially outdated. though plenty of scope for rp oaths with new estates.
Quote from: Indirik on December 28, 2011, 08:46:17 PM
Then start a conversation with them. Perfect opportunity to get to know the new guy.
Done. No result. Next?
Kick him out? or wait for him to auto-pause?